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Topic:  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?

Topic:  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 6/26/2020 9:10:25 AM 
Im saying that in both cases (those that opposed integration and per the town hall in florida those that do not want to wear a mask) folks said / are saying....

That its a crime against humanity . . . it's against God's will.

When in fact in both cases it is not a crime against humanity nor against Gods will. It is simply the right thing to do, and in fact forwards humanity. Am I putting their importance to humanity on the same level? Of course not. But in both cases it was/is to do what is right for our neighbors.
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 6/27/2020 11:29:51 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The data seems pretty comprehensive in favor of masks.

It's pretty baffling to me how much the anti-mask propaganda has taken off. Not only is there misinformation out there about how masks actually "activate" the virus, but there's also a surprisingly large contingent of folks who see it as an infringement on constitutional rights.

I'm in Virginia at the moment, and have noticed dozens of bumper stickers that are anti-mask. The President, of course, has been very anti-mask. Many conservative politicians -- Nino Vitale in Ohio, for instance -- have railed against masks.

It's truly odd that such a simple solution exists, a solution that allows us to largely re-open the economy with only a minor inconvenience, and yet so many are vehemently opposed.

We're in truly odd times.


One of the biggest issues is that a lot of people are skeptical that masks even do anything. The CDC messed up BIG-TIME by initially coming out and saying "masks don't do anything" only to reverse course a week or two later. It appears the CDC did this to ensure there wasn't a shortage of masks so they could prioritize getting them to healthcare workers...

That cause (prioritizing masks for healthcare workers) is in itself a good thing, but it backfired on them and they completely blew the little credibility they had with the American people to began with. They should have just been honest about it with the American people from the start and told people "masks work but please donate them to hospitals for the time-being." Yes, there would have been some a-holes who bought up masks for themselves but the majority of Americans would've understood and improvised with less effective protective-wear like bandannas. Now we've got a situation where people look at the CDC and think "the advice they are giving isn't necessarily what's best for my family, I am just a statistic to them."

...

As you said, another cause is the "unconstitutional" group and that one is easy to explain: a lot of Americans simply do not like the government telling them what to do.


I've seen crazier things happen.

Black 41 Flash Reverse

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 6/27/2020 3:05:08 PM 
While it is true that the CDC initially fumbled the mask issue, I think it was because they were primarily thinking of the mask as protecting the wearer, and masks aren't very good at that. Belatedly they realized that if all people have masks on, all infected people have masks on, and reversed their stance.

While their advice hasn't been perfect, they have done vastly better than the WHO, which has been wrong at every turn. How have these comments from the WHO stood the test of time?
There is no evidence of human to human transmission
There is no reason to restrict travel or commerce
There is no large pool of people out there which has been infected, who were asymptomatic.
Do wear masks
Don't wear masks.
Do not treat patients with corticosteriods
Asymptomatic transmission is not a significant method of transmission
The virus spreads only by water droplets, and can not aerosolize


We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak. ― Epictetus

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 6/28/2020 9:14:36 AM 
A study out from Virginia Commonwealth University
https://globalnews.ca/news/7075024/mask-wearing-fewer-cor... /
Christopher Leffler, Virginia Commonwealth University wrote:
What we found was that of the big variables that you can control which influence mortality, one was wearing masks. It wasnt just by a few per cent, it was up to a hundred times less mortality. The countries that introduced masks from the very beginning of their outbreak have had hardly any deaths.

Last Edited: 6/28/2020 9:15:56 AM by L.C.


We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak. ― Epictetus

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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 6/28/2020 11:27:47 AM 
L.C. wrote:
While it is true that the CDC initially fumbled the mask issue, I think it was because they were primarily thinking of the mask as protecting the wearer, and masks aren't very good at that. Belatedly they realized that if all people have masks on, all infected people have masks on, and reversed their stance.

While their advice hasn't been perfect, they have done vastly better than the WHO, which has been wrong at every turn. How have these comments from the WHO stood the test of time?
There is no evidence of human to human transmission
There is no reason to restrict travel or commerce
There is no large pool of people out there which has been infected, who were asymptomatic.
Do wear masks
Don't wear masks.
Do not treat patients with corticosteriods
Asymptomatic transmission is not a significant method of transmission
The virus spreads only by water droplets, and can not aerosolize


I, and I believe most Americans, do not respect the World Health Organization after this debacle. How could anyone? As you've correctly pointed out, they've been all over the board.

I don't think that excuses the CDC. Whatever the CDC's intentions were, I don't think people trust them anymore. And again, how could you? It's clear they are lying to the American people. They may very well be lying with the best intentions at heart, but I'd rather hear the straight-up truth than listen to more of their lies.

There are a lot of unknown variables with this virus... That is understandable... I'd respect the "experts" more if they came out and admitted they aren't entirely sure what works and what doesn't rather than releasing guidelines DEMANDING they be followed when in reality this is just a huge trial run...

Last Edited: 6/28/2020 11:29:23 AM by The Optimist


I've seen crazier things happen.

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 6/28/2020 5:36:15 PM 
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that there isn't a need for a world health organization. I'm saying that the one we have now did an awful job. Should it be defunded and replace? Should it be forced to change? So long as something is done, I'm OK with it.

The CDC did better, but not perfectly. Yes, they fumbled badly on making the first tests. They messed up on masks, and had to backtrack on the aerosolization issue. On the whole, though, their advice was sound.


We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak. ― Epictetus

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 6/29/2020 9:21:13 AM 
The Optimist wrote:

I, and I believe most Americans, do not respect the World Health Organization after this debacle. How could anyone? As you've correctly pointed out, they've been all over the board.


The data doesn't really back this up. Like everything else, Americans view of the World Health Organization basically falls on partisan lines.

69% of Democrats have a 'very favorable' or 'somewhat favorable' view of WHO. Another 21% say they 'Don't know.' Amongst Independents, only 34% say they have a 'somewhat unfavorable' or 'very unfavorable' view. The largest grouping is 'Don't know' at 29%.

Only amongst Republicans is WHO seen as unfavorable, where 63% view it as either 'somewhat unfavorable' or 'very unfavorable.'

https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports...

The Optimist wrote:

I don't think that excuses the CDC. Whatever the CDC's intentions were, I don't think people trust them anymore.


Again, the data doesn't support this. This is a bit dated (April) -- so maybe there's been a wild swing on this, but at the (previous) height of the pandameic, 79% of Americans viewed the CDC favorably.

I'd be interested to see if the numbers have changed.

The Optimist wrote:

And again, how could you? It's clear they are lying to the American people. They may very well be lying with the best intentions at heart, but I'd rather hear the straight-up truth than listen to more of their lies.


I might have just missed something, but I still have faith in the CDC. Which lies did they tell to the American people?

The Optimist wrote:

There are a lot of unknown variables with this virus... That is understandable... I'd respect the "experts" more if they came out and admitted they aren't entirely sure what works and what doesn't rather than releasing guidelines DEMANDING they be followed when in reality this is just a huge trial run...


Respectfully, anybody who puts the word "experts" in scare quotes belies the fact that they're not particularly inclined to respect experts. In the very sentence you're insisting you'd respect them if they behaved differently, you're calling into question their expertise.

From my vantage point, the handling of Covid became political basically immediately. From the left, the blame went to Trump. And because Trump's handling was so obviously terrible and the Right couldn't figure out a reasonable way to justify it, they tried to pass the buck onto the WHO and CDC. It seems to have worked, but only amongst Republicans.

Last Edited: 6/29/2020 10:44:12 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 6/29/2020 11:08:26 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The data doesn't really back this up. Like everything else, Americans view of the World Health Organization basically falls on partisan lines.
...

What is your personal impression of the WHO?

Here are my impressions. Had the WHO given out a correct information early, the spread might have been contained in China, and they have been consistently wrong. It's hard to imagine how any group could be so wrong on so many aspects of it.

Next to fail was CDC. They had a full month to prepare, to ramping up testing, and to building a system of contact tracing. Trump bought them a little extra time with his one correct move, banning travel from China, which bought about 2 extra weeks. Still, the CDC was only able to conduct a handful of tests while other countries were conducting thousands. CDC effectively blocked the tests developed by others, such as the University of Washington, by requiring their tests to be validated against SARS and MERS, but refusing to ship them samples of SARS and MERS.

Next up, Trump started injecting himself into the middle of the issue, one that he wasn't qualified to handle, and making crazy pronouncements like "poof, it will vanish". The CDC continued to be wrong for awhile, for example, advising against mask, and saying the virus could not aerosolize, but in their defense, it was partly because they were getting wrong information from the WHO. Meanwhile the WHO continued to give out wrong information at every turn.

After that, however, the CDC got going and did a fine job. Their testing finally began to ramp up, and they began approving the independent tests, further ramping up testing. They adjusted their views as new facts came in, such as data on aerosolization from UNMC. They reversed on masks, and recommended that everyone wear masks.

Thus, my opinion is that the CDC failed early, when it was most critical, but since those early errors is doing well. Sadly, the WHO is still issuing crazy pronouncements, such as recently saying that asymptomatic transmission is not a problem one day, and then retracting it the next. I believe they are still saying that there is no reason for non medical workers to wear masks.

Trump could have come out of this with dominant position for the election, and become unbeatable. Leaders almost always gain high approvals in times of crisis. All they have to is lead. Trump could have called for unity, then put experts in charge, and allowed them to do their job, and followed their recommendations. Had he done so, his popularity would have soared. He would gained support if the virus turned out to be nothing, because he was Presidential, and he would have gained support if it turned out to be serious, even if the economy crumbled, because he was decisive. Instead of taking the win-win position by acting Presidential, he took took the risky route, and made a huge bet that the virus would be no big deal, and go away on it's own. It hasn't, so his approval rating has fallen.

So, my grades:
CDC: C. They are doing very well now, but their early failure was costly. Their grade would be higher but for the fact that what is done early is critically important.
Trump: F. After banning travel early, he has done very poorly
WHO: F-. How could any group be more wrong on more issues? They were wrong early. Even today I think they still recommend against masks.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
...
From my vantage point, the handling of Covid became political basically immediately. From the left, the blame went to Trump. And because Trump's handling was so obviously terrible and the Right couldn't figure out a reasonable way to justify it, they tried to pass the buck onto the WHO and CDC. It seems to have worked, but only amongst Republicans.

I don't see this as a buck passing issue. The failing of one group does not forgive the failing of other groups. Errors by WHO do not absolve Trump, and errors by Trump do not absolve the WHO.

Last Edited: 6/29/2020 11:12:11 AM by L.C.


We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak. ― Epictetus

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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 6/29/2020 11:15:09 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:

I, and I believe most Americans, do not respect the World Health Organization after this debacle. How could anyone? As you've correctly pointed out, they've been all over the board.


The data doesn't really back this up. Like everything else, Americans view of the World Health Organization basically falls on partisan lines.

69% of Democrats have a 'very favorable' or 'somewhat favorable' view of WHO. Another 21% say they 'Don't know.' Amongst Independents, only 34% say they have a 'somewhat unfavorable' or 'very unfavorable' view. The largest grouping is 'Don't know' at 29%.

Only amongst Republicans is WHO seen as unfavorable, where 63% view it as either 'somewhat unfavorable' or 'very unfavorable.'

https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports...

The Optimist wrote:

I don't think that excuses the CDC. Whatever the CDC's intentions were, I don't think people trust them anymore.


Again, the data doesn't support this. This is a bit dated (April) -- so maybe there's been a wild swing on this, but at the (previous) height of the pandameic, 79% of Americans viewed the CDC favorably.

I'd be interested to see if the numbers have changed.

The Optimist wrote:

And again, how could you? It's clear they are lying to the American people. They may very well be lying with the best intentions at heart, but I'd rather hear the straight-up truth than listen to more of their lies.


I might have just missed something, but I still have faith in the CDC. Which lies did they tell to the American people?

The Optimist wrote:

There are a lot of unknown variables with this virus... That is understandable... I'd respect the "experts" more if they came out and admitted they aren't entirely sure what works and what doesn't rather than releasing guidelines DEMANDING they be followed when in reality this is just a huge trial run...


Respectfully, anybody who puts the word "experts" in scare quotes belies the fact that they're not particularly inclined to respect experts. In the very sentence you're insisting you'd respect them if they behaved differently, you're calling into question their expertise.

From my vantage point, the handling of Covid became political basically immediately. From the left, the blame went to Trump. And because Trump's handling was so obviously terrible and the Right couldn't figure out a reasonable way to justify it, they tried to pass the buck onto the WHO and CDC. It seems to have worked, but only amongst Republicans.




Your idea of "data" is what comes from polls. I'd agree that is "data," it's just really bad data. The "data" I rely on comes primarily from how people engage on the internet. As we saw so well in 2016, this type of sentiment analysis proves far superior in many areas.

You are correct, I do not respect a lot of "experts." I've found many "experts" are dinosaurs who are behind the times when it comes to understanding data.

You are also correct that there has been a lot of "politics" thrown into this issue. I don't think that excuses the WHO and CDC. Personally, I've been critically of their handling of January (and admittedly didn't respect either of them that much before Coronavirus at all) but I think many are critical mostly because of political motives.


I've seen crazier things happen.

Black 41 Flash Reverse

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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 6/29/2020 11:17:52 AM 
Another reason I dislike the WHO is saying "the WHO" makes me think of the band. Saying just WHO doesn't sound right if you say out the full name, and spelling out the full name just seems like a lot of unnecessary effort. They are just being completely unreasonable.


I've seen crazier things happen.

Black 41 Flash Reverse

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 6/29/2020 11:24:57 AM 
The Optimist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:

I, and I believe most Americans, do not respect the World Health Organization after this debacle. How could anyone? As you've correctly pointed out, they've been all over the board.


The data doesn't really back this up. Like everything else, Americans view of the World Health Organization basically falls on partisan lines.

69% of Democrats have a 'very favorable' or 'somewhat favorable' view of WHO. Another 21% say they 'Don't know.' Amongst Independents, only 34% say they have a 'somewhat unfavorable' or 'very unfavorable' view. The largest grouping is 'Don't know' at 29%.

Only amongst Republicans is WHO seen as unfavorable, where 63% view it as either 'somewhat unfavorable' or 'very unfavorable.'

https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports...

The Optimist wrote:

I don't think that excuses the CDC. Whatever the CDC's intentions were, I don't think people trust them anymore.


Again, the data doesn't support this. This is a bit dated (April) -- so maybe there's been a wild swing on this, but at the (previous) height of the pandameic, 79% of Americans viewed the CDC favorably.

I'd be interested to see if the numbers have changed.

The Optimist wrote:

And again, how could you? It's clear they are lying to the American people. They may very well be lying with the best intentions at heart, but I'd rather hear the straight-up truth than listen to more of their lies.


I might have just missed something, but I still have faith in the CDC. Which lies did they tell to the American people?

The Optimist wrote:

There are a lot of unknown variables with this virus... That is understandable... I'd respect the "experts" more if they came out and admitted they aren't entirely sure what works and what doesn't rather than releasing guidelines DEMANDING they be followed when in reality this is just a huge trial run...


Respectfully, anybody who puts the word "experts" in scare quotes belies the fact that they're not particularly inclined to respect experts. In the very sentence you're insisting you'd respect them if they behaved differently, you're calling into question their expertise.

From my vantage point, the handling of Covid became political basically immediately. From the left, the blame went to Trump. And because Trump's handling was so obviously terrible and the Right couldn't figure out a reasonable way to justify it, they tried to pass the buck onto the WHO and CDC. It seems to have worked, but only amongst Republicans.




Your idea of "data" is what comes from polls. I'd agree that is "data," it's just really bad data. The "data" I rely on comes primarily from how people engage on the internet. As we saw so well in 2016, this type of sentiment analysis proves far superior in many areas.

You are correct, I do not respect a lot of "experts." I've found many "experts" are dinosaurs who are behind the times when it comes to understanding data.

You are also correct that there has been a lot of "politics" thrown into this issue. I don't think that excuses the WHO and CDC. Personally, I've been critically of their handling of January (and admittedly didn't respect either of them that much before Coronavirus at all) but I think many are critical mostly because of political motives.


Do you have data bout how people engage on the internet that shows something different?

Also, the idea that polling data is poor data because of 2016 doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. The polling data showed Clinton as the favorite. But still left open a ~30% chance that Trump would win. We witnessed the 30% chance take place. All that really proved was that Trump's base was more committed and turned out at a higher rate than expected, while Clinton's base was blase and turned out at a slightly lower rate than modeled. I don't buy the argument that we should now consider polling data "bad data" and look entirely at online engagement. Though I'd be interested to see that data you're talking about.

If Vegas gives Ohio a 70% chance of winning the MAC, and Ohio doesn't win the MAC, do you write off Vegas odds as completely incorrect? Of course not. Because 30 out of 100 times, the Vegas model has Ohio losing.

My tendency is to remind myself as often as possible that Twitter and Facebook are not real life. They both represent a vocal minority on political issues, and ascribing too much weight to that vocal minority is largely responsible for the fractured state our country finds ourselves in. It's very important to contextualize that it takes about 14,000 tweets to make something trend on Twitter. That's not even the capacity of Peden.

Last Edited: 6/29/2020 3:10:28 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 6/29/2020 7:16:39 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
...All that really proved was that Trump's base was more committed and turned out at a higher rate than expected, while Clinton's base was blase and turned out at a slightly lower rate than modeled...

Correct, and all that translates to is one election. Does that teach us that Trump's supporters will again turn out at higher than expected rates, and that Biden's supports will not turn out? Hardly. For one thing, pollsters adapt their forecasts of turnout to reflect the past because they don't like to be wrong. For another, the psychology of each election is different.

One indicator I use to guess how the turnout will run, is polls of the so-called "haters". In 2016, voters who disliked both Clinton and Trump voted for Trump by a 20% majority, indicating that Clinton had a wide degree of dislike, while Trump was only sort of disliked. Thus, in part, Trump voters turned out strongly because of their strong dislike of Clinton. In this election, Biden is polling with a wide lead over Trump among "haters". Will this mean that the strength of dislike that some people have for Trump will cause anti-Trump voters to turn out in higher than anticipated numbers? That would be my expectation.

Polls try to hit the center of possible outcomes, but they all have a 2-3% range of expected error. Any time an election is projected to be within 2-3%, anything can happen. Emotions are the key, though, when one side or the other has higher than expected turnout.


We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak. ― Epictetus

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 6/29/2020 8:17:38 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
...All that really proved was that Trump's base was more committed and turned out at a higher rate than expected, while Clinton's base was blase and turned out at a slightly lower rate than modeled...

Correct, and all that translates to is one election. Does that teach us that Trump's supporters will again turn out at higher than expected rates, and that Biden's supports will not turn out? Hardly. For one thing, pollsters adapt their forecasts of turnout to reflect the past because they don't like to be wrong. For another, the psychology of each election is different.

One indicator I use to guess how the turnout will run, is polls of the so-called "haters". In 2016, voters who disliked both Clinton and Trump voted for Trump by a 20% majority, indicating that Clinton had a wide degree of dislike, while Trump was only sort of disliked. Thus, in part, Trump voters turned out strongly because of their strong dislike of Clinton. In this election, Biden is polling with a wide lead over Trump among "haters". Will this mean that the strength of dislike that some people have for Trump will cause anti-Trump voters to turn out in higher than anticipated numbers? That would be my expectation.

Polls try to hit the center of possible outcomes, but they all have a 2-3% range of expected error. Any time an election is projected to be within 2-3%, anything can happen. Emotions are the key, though, when one side or the other has higher than expected turnout.


Yeah, agree on the 'dislike' factor. Hilary was very unpopular and I think models underestimated that.

This year, Trump's a historically unpopular President. He's handled the Covid crisis as poorly as it could be handled, unemployment's at 15%, and the hope of a V shaped recovery's basically evaporating before our eyes thanks states that re-opened too early. On top of that, he tweets truly stupid things 5 times a day, and all but his most ardent supporters can see that he's simply not competent or capable of doing the job. He keeps going back to his same bag of tricks -- namely, culture wars -- but in the face of a pandemic that's killed more Americans that World War I, high unemployment, a highly energized left in the wake of BLM protests (to which he responded by tweeting a video of a supporter of his yelling "White Power"), and now the fact that he turned a blind eye while Russia paid terrorist groups to bounties to kill US soldiers He's done. I'm not even sure it's possible any more to make a compelling case as to why he's been a good President.

At this point, nobody is voting for Trump because they think Trump is a good President. The only votes he'll get are amongst people who just hate liberals, regardless of the name next to the (D). He'll also pull in a segment of the Christian base who vote entirely on abortion, and some folks that hate taxes so much that they'll trade a lower tax rate for the soul of America.

And his team knows all of that, so they'll spend the next 5 months making sure it's as hard for people to vote as possible.



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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 7/1/2020 10:59:07 AM 
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The data doesn't really back this up. Like everything else, Americans view of the World Health Organization basically falls on partisan lines.
...

What is your personal impression of the WHO?

Here are my impressions. Had the WHO given out a correct information early, the spread might have been contained in China, and they have been consistently wrong. It's hard to imagine how any group could be so wrong on so many aspects of it.

Next to fail was CDC. They had a full month to prepare, to ramping up testing, and to building a system of contact tracing. Trump bought them a little extra time with his one correct move, banning travel from China, which bought about 2 extra weeks. Still, the CDC was only able to conduct a handful of tests while other countries were conducting thousands. CDC effectively blocked the tests developed by others, such as the University of Washington, by requiring their tests to be validated against SARS and MERS, but refusing to ship them samples of SARS and MERS.

Next up, Trump started injecting himself into the middle of the issue, one that he wasn't qualified to handle, and making crazy pronouncements like "poof, it will vanish". The CDC continued to be wrong for awhile, for example, advising against mask, and saying the virus could not aerosolize, but in their defense, it was partly because they were getting wrong information from the WHO. Meanwhile the WHO continued to give out wrong information at every turn.

After that, however, the CDC got going and did a fine job. Their testing finally began to ramp up, and they began approving the independent tests, further ramping up testing. They adjusted their views as new facts came in, such as data on aerosolization from UNMC. They reversed on masks, and recommended that everyone wear masks.

Thus, my opinion is that the CDC failed early, when it was most critical, but since those early errors is doing well. Sadly, the WHO is still issuing crazy pronouncements, such as recently saying that asymptomatic transmission is not a problem one day, and then retracting it the next. I believe they are still saying that there is no reason for non medical workers to wear masks.

Trump could have come out of this with dominant position for the election, and become unbeatable. Leaders almost always gain high approvals in times of crisis. All they have to is lead. Trump could have called for unity, then put experts in charge, and allowed them to do their job, and followed their recommendations. Had he done so, his popularity would have soared. He would gained support if the virus turned out to be nothing, because he was Presidential, and he would have gained support if it turned out to be serious, even if the economy crumbled, because he was decisive. Instead of taking the win-win position by acting Presidential, he took took the risky route, and made a huge bet that the virus would be no big deal, and go away on it's own. It hasn't, so his approval rating has fallen.

So, my grades:
CDC: C. They are doing very well now, but their early failure was costly. Their grade would be higher but for the fact that what is done early is critically important.
Trump: F. After banning travel early, he has done very poorly
WHO: F-. How could any group be more wrong on more issues? They were wrong early. Even today I think they still recommend against masks.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
...
From my vantage point, the handling of Covid became political basically immediately. From the left, the blame went to Trump. And because Trump's handling was so obviously terrible and the Right couldn't figure out a reasonable way to justify it, they tried to pass the buck onto the WHO and CDC. It seems to have worked, but only amongst Republicans.

I don't see this as a buck passing issue. The failing of one group does not forgive the failing of other groups. Errors by WHO do not absolve Trump, and errors by Trump do not absolve the WHO.


Sorry, missed this prior.

My personal impression of WHO/CDC is basically 'meh.' Neither shrouded themselves in glory, but there's not much glory to be found in this whole mess. Across the board, leaders pretty much all let us down.

I live in New York and think DeBlasio deserves an F and Cuomo deserves a D. Cuomo gets a slightly better grade for his frankness around communications and grasping the importance of that. In many ways, he stepped into the void created at the National level and spoke to the seriousness.

Looking elsewhere, I think Gavin Newsom deserves a pretty high mark, second wave not withstanding. He closed early and aggressively. Things have gotten worse in California, but relatively they've missed the worst of this. DeWine also deserves a high mark. He was very proactive and Ohio's been spared the worst of this. There were folks calling for him to be impeached in the early days of this. He staked an unpopular opinion and has been vindicated. DeSantis and Abbott deserve F's. As does anybody else who had the opportunity to learn from New York, Seattle, New Orleans, etc. and didn't.

Truthfully, it's harder for me to judge the CDC/WHO. They've been all over the place, but so have the health studies themselves. I think they made serious missteps, but in the case of the CDC, they've also been beating the same drum consistently now for several months and leadership and both the federal and state levels have let them down.

All in all, pretty much everybody has failed this test. Our public health response was poor, our economic response was insufficient, and a shockingly large percentage of the American people have demonstrated a complete unwillingness to make minor sacrifices for the greater good.

On the plus side, I'll say that my experience in New York has been such that I feel incredibly proud to be a New Yorker. There's a greater sense of community and the level of personal responsibility people take over wearing masks is truly impressive. I haven't seen a single person inside of a building sans mask. Everybody takes it very, very seriously. Compare that to Virginia, where I just had to spend two weeks, and it was about a 50-50 split.

So that's something.

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 7/5/2020 12:12:30 AM 
The WHO is likely wrong again, it appears. They have been claiming that SARS-COV2 is not airborne. Months ago the UNMC released data that they had discovered in the BioContainment unit that it is airborne. Months ago a nurse who is a customer told me "now they are telling me that my N95 mask won't protect me, because it is airborne". Even today, the WHO says it is not. 239 Experts from 32 countries have sent an open letter to the WHO asking them to please reconsider:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/04/health/239-experts-wit...

I agree that there is plenty of blame to go around. I'll give an A to the politicians of my state, who treated this as a medical emergency, not a political event. Republicans and Democrats worked together to assure a uniform response throughout the state. We initially had low cases, but then had 5 clusters related to 5 meat packing plants. They rapidly escalated testing, and moved patients around the state to assure that there was never a crisis. We never completely closed, nor have we completely re-opened. Thanks to the meat packing plants, cases are fairly high, but deaths have been very low. Masks are not mandated, but the Governor constantly urges Nebraskans to "do the right thing" and wear masks, and most are.

As for California, now they are being tested. They had cases breaking out early in the pandemic, but those were the variety from Wuhan. Now they, and other parts of the country, are facing the version that was in New York and New Jersey, the D614G mutation, which is 10x more infectious. They were able to control the first version, and hopefully they will control this version, but this version will be a more challenging test.

Last Edited: 7/5/2020 12:14:11 AM by L.C.


We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak. ― Epictetus

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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 7/5/2020 2:02:19 AM 
The people who upset me are the ones who simply don't care and don't feel like wearing masks or social distancing. We can criticize the government, and rightly so, but I'm going to point the finger at my neighbors. They're making this problem last longer than it needs to be. I have asthma; I can't take chances. I'm staying home. I and others are paying the price for other people's carelessness.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 7/5/2020 7:22:20 AM 
JSF wrote:
The people who upset me are the ones who simply don't care and don't feel like wearing masks or social distancing. We can criticize the government, and rightly so, but I'm going to point the finger at my neighbors. They're making this problem last longer than it needs to be. I have asthma; I can't take chances. I'm staying home. I and others are paying the price for other people's carelessness.

+1

Other places in the world have this under control. We could, too, if we could all get on the same page.


We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak. ― Epictetus

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 7/5/2020 11:26:38 PM 
Here's an interesting poll, giving the approval rating for all 50 governors for their handing of Covid. It's a bit dated, from 3 weeks ago, before the recent surge, so opinions in some states may have changed significantly:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/approval-ratings-...


We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak. ― Epictetus

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 7/6/2020 12:32:09 AM 
Rates keep rising like they are in Athens, we can turn this site into Bobcat Pentrest for fall and winter sports.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 7/6/2020 8:15:03 AM 
L.C. wrote:
Here's an interesting poll, giving the approval rating for all 50 governors for their handing of Covid. It's a bit dated, from 3 weeks ago, before the recent surge, so opinions in some states may have changed significantly:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/approval-ratings-...


The 6/12/20 poll has gov. Murphy of N.J. as #19.

I don't think his approval rating for his covid response would be that high
now.

Around 6/19 he announced limited indoor dining could resume 7/2.
Late on 6/27 he put out the rules for restaurants to open.
They went ahead and ordered food and alcohol and brought back staff.
On Monday afternoon (6/30) he pulled the plug on it.

He claims it was because of a spike in positive cases in other sates that allowed indoor dining.
The states that abut NJ haven't had any issue.

The press also pointed out nothing changed between 6/19 and 6/30.

Of course the fact that he and his wife got caught dining indoors on 6/27 when
a rain storm hit had nothing to do with it.

Same thing,all gyms and fitness centers remain locked down.
But karate schools,dance studios,arcades and even massage parlors are open.

Pa has had gyms open since mid June,without a problem.

Why are they still closed ?

2 gym owners opened in defiance of his lock down order.
So its pay back for all gyms,including the NJ based companies
that closed for good.

This despite the fact that,on June 1 he said gyms and fitness centers would
be open "soon".







Last Edited: 7/6/2020 9:53:27 AM by rpbobcat

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 7/6/2020 11:56:40 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Here's an interesting poll, giving the approval rating for all 50 governors for their handing of Covid. It's a bit dated, from 3 weeks ago, before the recent surge, so opinions in some states may have changed significantly:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/approval-ratings-...


The 6/12/20 poll has gov. Murphy of N.J. as #19.

I don't think his approval rating for his covid response would be that high
now.

Around 6/19 he announced limited indoor dining could resume 7/2.
Late on 6/27 he put out the rules for restaurants to open.
They went ahead and ordered food and alcohol and brought back staff.
On Monday afternoon (6/30) he pulled the plug on it.

He claims it was because of a spike in positive cases in other sates that allowed indoor dining.
The states that abut NJ haven't had any issue.

The press also pointed out nothing changed between 6/19 and 6/30.

Of course the fact that he and his wife got caught dining indoors on 6/27 when
a rain storm hit had nothing to do with it.

Same thing,all gyms and fitness centers remain locked down.
But karate schools,dance studios,arcades and even massage parlors are open.

Pa has had gyms open since mid June,without a problem.

Why are they still closed ?

2 gym owners opened in defiance of his lock down order.
So its pay back for all gyms,including the NJ based companies
that closed for good.

This despite the fact that,on June 1 he said gyms and fitness centers would
be open "soon".



There are a bunch of red states on that list who have approval ratings for Trump's handling of the crisis close to 60%.

So I wouldn't waste my time looking to0 hard for a cause and effect with a lot of these approval ratings. Whether somebody approves or not seems largely driven by partisanship, not surprisingly. DeWine's one of the few that seems broadly popular across parties, actually.

Last Edited: 7/6/2020 11:57:18 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 7/6/2020 12:25:08 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


There are a bunch of red states on that list who have approval ratings for Trump's handling of the crisis close to 60%.

So I wouldn't waste my time looking to0 hard for a cause and effect with a lot of these approval ratings. Whether somebody approves or not seems largely driven by partisanship, not surprisingly. DeWine's one of the few that seems broadly popular across parties, actually.



New Jersey is a deep blue state.

People out here point to Ohio as to how you can reopen safely.

Its one of the state's our governor chooses to ignore.

Unlike governor DeWine,our governor is now enjoying broad unpopularity,
across party lines.





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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 7/6/2020 1:19:12 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:


New Jersey is a deep blue state.

People out here point to Ohio as to how you can reopen safely.

Its one of the state's our governor chooses to ignore.

Unlike governor DeWine,our governor is now enjoying broad unpopularity,
across party lines.


None of the data I've seen suggests he's got broad unpopularity. What would have changed in the eyes of his base on the left?
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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 7/6/2020 1:33:18 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
SouthernCat wrote:


HIPAA only protects that information if you are going to transmit it electronically.


Not based on the doctors I've had to deal with with my dad.

They wouldn't even talk to me,until he signed letter saying they could
share his medical information with my wife and I.

My wife is a visiting nurse and runs into the same situation all the
time with new patients.

A few weeks ago I participated in webinar on how to deal with covid restrictions in your business.

One of the topics was requiring people to wear masks in your office.

The lawyer giving the webinar said that an employer could "require"
employees to wear one in the office.

But,if an employee says they have a "medical condition" ,that prevents them from wearing one,that ends the discussion.

He said that,under HIPAA,not only can't an employer request documentation of
the "medical condition",you can't even ask what it is.




You can require a Doctor's note. The Doctor's note doesn't have to provide details, but it's perfectly legal to make a doctor's note a required step in any accomodation made as an employer, particularly one that you deem to potentially put other employees at risk.


I had to bring a doctor's note to wear nice new leather Nike athletic shoes instead of dress shoes to the office ten years ago due to a history of foot injury issues. A travel agency, not like it was the home office for Bank of America. So the doc wrote it and I gave it to the site director.

There was no need for an asinine display of ignorance, claiming "the constitution" or "the bible" states I was born with an unalienable right to wear a pair of Nike athletic shoes to the office.

Want to know if America is going backwards socially? This music video spells it out clearly even if you don't like alternative rock, it's worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8fm3Z7jgWM

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How has it worked out in countries that have required masks?
   Posted: 7/6/2020 1:50:04 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:


New Jersey is a deep blue state.

People out here point to Ohio as to how you can reopen safely.

Its one of the state's our governor chooses to ignore.

Unlike governor DeWine,our governor is now enjoying broad unpopularity,
across party lines.


None of the data I've seen suggests he's got broad unpopularity. What would have changed in the eyes of his base on the left?


Don't know what data you're referring to.

If you talk to the people who live here,you'll be hard pressed to find
many people who support how he's handling the reopening.

People are seeing his pulling the plug on indoor dining and opening of gyms and fitness centers as what it is,vindictive pay back.

Perfect example.
Another excuse he used to kill indoor dining,people being indoors,sedentary for a period of time.

Then he goes and allows casinos to to open.





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