Welcome Guest!
Create an Account
login email:
password:
site searchwhere to watchcontact usabout usadvertise with ushelp
Message Board

BobcatAttack.com Message Board
General Ohio University Discussion/Alumni Events
Topic:  RE: Which states acted on a timely basis?

Topic:  RE: Which states acted on a timely basis?
Author
Message
OhioCatFan
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 11,658

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Which states acted on a timely basis?
   Posted: 6/16/2021 12:16:25 PM 


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

Back to Top
  
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
General User

Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 2,220

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Which states acted on a timely basis?
   Posted: 6/16/2021 1:42:14 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:


Yeah, dude. I shared details on those numbers in my post, addressed them directly, and provided historical context. I coupled that with firsthand insight into my experience, you know, being here.

That you can't even entertain the possibility that the media narrative may be lacking full context underscores the intellectual honesty with which you approach conversations here, and that you avoid addressing my points directly illustrates that you don't even have conviction in your beliefs, just loyalty to the narrative.

Your first post here spoke to the "history of intellectual growth" and the importance of an open flow of ideas. You should consider applying those ideals to yourself from time to time.


Back to Top
  
OhioCatFan
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 11,658

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Which states acted on a timely basis?
   Posted: 6/16/2021 3:38:26 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Yeah, dude. I shared details on those numbers in my post, addressed them directly, and provided historical context. I coupled that with firsthand insight into my experience, you know, being here.


I respect your "being there," but it's not just the clip that I posted, but other more in-depth analysis that seems to indicate that what doesn't concern you all that much does concern others who live in NYC, including one of my daughters. Below is a link to what appears to me to be a rather balanced article from the Christian Science Monitor, and it certainly paints a different overall picture of the crime situation in NYC than I have gathered from your posts on the subject, when taken in the aggregate. I respectfully submit it for your consideration:

https://tinyurl.com/4sye7d6x


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

Back to Top
  
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
General User

Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 2,220

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Which states acted on a timely basis?
   Posted: 6/16/2021 6:58:22 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Yeah, dude. I shared details on those numbers in my post, addressed them directly, and provided historical context. I coupled that with firsthand insight into my experience, you know, being here.


I respect your "being there," but it's not just the clip that I posted, but other more in-depth analysis that seems to indicate that what doesn't concern you all that much does concern others who live in NYC, including one of my daughters. Below is a link to what appears to me to be a rather balanced article from the Christian Science Monitor, and it certainly paints a different overall picture of the crime situation in NYC than I have gathered from your posts on the subject, when taken in the aggregate. I respectfully submit it for your consideration:

https://tinyurl.com/4sye7d6x



It's a little bit late to be "respectfully" submitting articles for consideration on the subject, or to "respect my being there". After all, you raised this subject out of the blue as a way of accusing me of "living in a different world" and as an example of why you're willing to dismiss my view out of hand. What's respectful about that, exactly? And you did so after effectively accusing me of lying about receiving conservative push notifications.

I presented my view, included data, and even a very specific explanation for why the spike's occurred in Midtown, and theories about why the spike's also occurring nationally. I acknowledged the spike, provided historical context that set the data against the eras rpbobcat felt were "best", and provided my first-hand perspective about the day-to-day in Manhattan. It's all there for you to read through and engage with if you so choose.

I also laid out the very obvious political calculus that's leading a subset of the population to exaggerate the extent of the crime spike. It's a potent political issue for the Right. There's a whole lot of strong incentive given last summer's protests for Conservatives to make this a key issue, and they are.

The mistake I made here, honestly, was thinking you were actually open to engaging on the subject, and willing to keep an open mind. You started by stating clearly that you're not. I should have taken you at your word.

Last Edited: 6/16/2021 7:04:35 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

Back to Top
  
OhioCatFan
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 11,658

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Which states acted on a timely basis?
   Posted: 6/16/2021 8:07:02 PM 
BLSS: For the record I didnít accuse you of lying. I said I was astounded that your experiences were so different from mine, and jokingly said you might be living in an alternate universe. I then opined that maybe the Google algorithms were different for conservatives versus liberals. As sophisticated as these things have become, thatís completely possible. As youíve said, many of them are just to sell you more soap or whatever they think you want, but some are more nefarious and sinister, and ultimately a threat to free and open discussion.

You seem offended by my submission of the CSM article. I thought it balanced, and while it supported some of what rpbobcat and I have said, it also gave some rationale for the current state of affairs that was not inconsistent with some of the points youíve made ó specifically about the role of the pandemic and homelessness as a cause of some of the increased violence. And, note this article focused not on what conservatives were saying about the issue but Democratic mayoral primary candidates.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

Back to Top
  
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
General User

Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 2,220

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Which states acted on a timely basis?
   Posted: 6/17/2021 11:31:01 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
BLSS: For the record I didnít accuse you of lying. I said I was astounded that your experiences were so different from mine, and jokingly said you might be living in an alternate universe.


You said:

OhioCatFan wrote:

All I can say is that you seem to live in a different world than I do and that many others do. I remember your description in responding to rpbobcat about how wonderful things were in NYC as you described an almost an idyllic scene of your experiences in Manhattan in terms of entertainment and dining. Meanwhile rpbobcat painted a much different description of what life was really like in NYC. In this case I trusted rpbobcat's observation.


Now, you describe a situation where after just a few searches you are getting all sorts of conservative push notices. This is absolutely amazing.


In other words, you cited a previous conversation from many weeks ago, out of the blue, as supporting evidence as to why you're choosing to dismiss my stance here. The use of "Now, you" is clearly there to connect the two examples. The first where my firsthand description of life in New York wasn't to be trusted above rpbobcat, and the second connected it to my "amazing" situation where Google pushed content that goes counter to your experience.

Notably, I provided proof and you ignored it. Also notable: you clearly didn't realize that rpbobcat hasn't actually seen any of this first hand, given that you referred to his view as an "observation." That you don't own your own words and are completely unwilling to acknowledge and examine when you're wrongheaded is illustrative of how you've approached this entire dialogue.

Backtrack all you want, but the implication and your intent are clear. And further, they're consistent with the intellectual honesty with which you've approached the entire conversation. You feel strongly; when facts are presented that seem inconsistent with your feelings, you either ignore them or find a reason to dismiss the messenger (me).

It's blatant, transparent, and completely hypocritical given the grandiose way you positioned yourself at the beginning of this thread as somebody who just wants, more than anything, a free flow of ideas and open conversation.


OhioCatFan wrote:

but some are more nefarious and sinister, and ultimately a threat to free and open discussion.


You continue to make assertions like this one. Broad assertions about companies silencing speech that doesn't adhere to "woke norms." You've been asked many times to provide evidence for that. You only provide anectdotes. The generous read on that is that you're just not able to grasp how these algorithms work, and the scale of the content moderation task. That would be perfectly understandable -- it's insanely complex. The less generous read is that it's just another example of your feelings being prioritized over evidence.

Feel free to provide actual evidence of how Facebook and Google's algorithms nefariously are creating a threat to free and open discussion. What you've provided thus far are content moderation decisions. You're making a huge accusation; you're providing little anectdotes that don't actually support that accusation. I've pointed that out in many ways; each time, you've ignored my responses. Why?


OhioCatFan wrote:

You seem offended by my submission of the CSM article.


I'm offended by you. I've explained why. I also find your hypocrisy representative of deep rot in American conservatism. You're not a free speech absolutist. You're lining up to use the power of the state to punish private companies that make decisions you disagree with.

It's fine if that's what you think is best here. And I'd respect you more if you just made that argument. I'm not even fully convinced it's the wrong path here, though I feel strongly that it likely is.

What I find offensive is the way you try and package your stance here as consistent with the ideals of Oliver Wendell Holmes and free speech, when they are so clearly and obviously not. You've consistently ignored direct questions asking you to explain the logical thread that connects your free speech absolutism to the stance you're taking on platforms. You also, of course, ignored the examples of Delta, Major League Baseball, and expressed tacit support for states trying to ban the teaching of the 1619 project.

I'm sorry, my man, but you don't get to wax poetic about the free flow of ideas and "challenging the unchallengeable" and then go "but yeah, I don't like the 1619 project." Especially if, when pressed on it, you shy away from justifying how that view's consistent with the way you entered the thread.

There's nothing intellectually honest about that, and it's impossible to have a respectful debate with somebody who doesn't approach the conversation in an intellectually honest way. You haven't respected my opinion, the facts I've presented, and engaged around them.

That's what I find offensive, not the Christian Science Monitor article.

As for the (new issue) at hand, here's a sampling of how rpbobcat described New York City:

rpbobcat wrote:

You take your life in your hands trying to walk in midtown.



rpbobcat wrote:
Its so bad,I know several police officers from NJ who have been told to make sure they have their "off duty" weapon, if they have to go to the city.

rpbobcat wrote:


In honesty,the local news shows don't begin to cover how decrepit midtown
Manhattan has become.


The point I've consistently made in this thread is that there's been a spike in crime, both in New York and nationally, but the on-the-ground reality is not even remotely approaching a point where "you take your own life in your hands walking in midtown" and that you need to be armed.

The context I provided about crime stats was to show that, yes, crime has increased. But the baseline has been so low under DeBlasio, that a huge increase in crime has pushed crime to the rate things were at under Bloomberg.

Is that a concerning trend? Of course. Is it something people care about? Of course. Do I need to carry a gun in Midtown. Of course not. There are, on average, 5 robberies a day committed against a population of many million people.

rpbobcat's characterization, the one you referred to as an "observation" and trust above mine, is quite clearly fear-mongering nonsense. There's a whole lot of surface area for a reasonable conversation about the state of crime in New York that exists between "there's nothing wrong" and "carry a gun, your life's in danger." I'm trying to have a conversation in the middle there, one that includes nuance, and data.

You haven't engaged around any of the nuance, and are only trying to engage around "Yes, it's very very very bad and rpbobcat is right" and "There's no problem."

I illustrated problems and what I believe to be their causes. Your stance has basically been "That doesn't sound bad enough to me, you must live in a different world."

I mean, for god's sake, here's one of the infamous hotels that has been converted to a homeless shelter. As mentioned, it's directly across the street from my office. I just took this photo.

https://www.filepicker.io/api/file/0PZ70HaBRwSxFm1omi9C

That's a bake sale.

And as I said, this block's in bad shape. It's been a worse place to work for months now; there's now a lot of drugs, loud music, people hanging out on the street all hours. Like I said, it reminds me of San Francisco. That's not a good thing.

But I'm in no physical danger and have never felt such. My life's not in danger. The city is not decrepit. Outdoor dining is nice. The city is full of life, people are out and about. So far, this summer's been super, super fun in New York. People are jumping back into life with vigor; they're friendly and outgoing in a way I haven't seen in years. People are happy to be on the other side of the pandemic, the weather's been beautiful, outdoor dining and bars are booming, and even real estate is recovering already.

When it comes to public safety, I think Jane Jacobs was largely right, and that crime thrives when streets have no life. Community -- the daily comings and goings of people, shops being open, restaurants serving customers, deter crime if only because witnesses deter crime. The pandemic brought that to a halt. People were inside. They left midtown altogether, and the tourists were replaced by the homeless who needed separate rooms to stop the spread of Covid and were moved to hotels. Crime spiked.

I feel quite confident that as Covid resides and life in New York goes back to normal -- which is happening rapidly right now -- crime will recede back to pre-pandemic levels. It's a very basic premise of urban planning; crowds deter serious and violent crime, and cities designed for life on the street have a way of policing themselves. That principle applied to Midtown and Greenwich Village, and then all at once it didn't. It'll apply again soon.

And again, even with the spike, the reality on the ground is not as bleak as rpbobcat paints it. That's the point I've made -- I get it's more nuanced than "you take your life in your own hands walking in Midtown" but it's also backed by data, so your dismissiveness just reads as bias. That your political views align with people who stand to make clear political gains by using a spike in crime as a contrast to last summer's protests just further illustrates why I think there's more than a little bit of political bias in the stance you're taking here.



Last Edited: 6/17/2021 12:16:38 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

Back to Top
  
Kevin Finnegan
General User

Member Since: 2/4/2005
Location: Rockton, IL
Post Count: 855

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Which states acted on a timely basis?
   Posted: 6/17/2021 12:48:36 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:


All I can say is that you seem to live in a different world than I do and that many others do. I remember your description in responding to rpbobcat about how wonderful things were in NYC as you described an almost an idyllic scene of your experiences in Manhattan in terms of entertainment and dining. Meanwhile rpbobcat painted a much different description of what life was really like in NYC. In this case I trusted rpbobcat's observation.

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."


There's an irony that these two coming are from the same post. A quote about wanting to be an optimist above all else but at the same time wanting to believe the viewpoints of someone who is preaching doom and gloom upon something they heard in anecdotes and calling out someone who lives in some place as viewing their home as 'almost idyllic'.

If we are worried about crime jumps, I imagine the greatest concern is based on the fact that Mississippi has seen the highest violent crime spikes of any state. I bet, if we want to look at problems and offer solutions, that should be our first place to look. Would it matter that Fox News, on their website, has over 90,000 videos, stories, and slideshows related to "New York Crime", whereas "Mississippi Crime" only has 3,000? Again, Mississippi has the highest violent crime spikes in the last year. Shouldn't they point their attention and concern there? It's almost as if they have an agenda in looking only at New York and reporting nearly every crime that happens in the city. Then, it's almost as if people who are viewing their material are more likely to believe a narrative even if it isn't fully supported by the facts that it has become some cesspool where anarchy reigns.
Back to Top
  
OhioCatFan
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 11,658

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Which states acted on a timely basis?
   Posted: 6/17/2021 3:19:59 PM 
BLSS:

I hope your observations that increased people on the streets and crowds will decrease the crime rate in future months as the pandemic winds down is correct. It very well may happen that way. There appears to me to be some basic underlying logic in that assertion. For the record, my daughter lives in Harlem. I havenít been there for going on two years now. Both my wife and I felt slightly less safe on the street there on our last visit than on previous visits ó part of that was due to the smaller police presence. It wasnít a night and day kind of thing, but a slight sense that we best stay inside after dark, which we didnít sense on many earlier visits ó starting in about 2000, the turn of the century. It was in this context that rpbobcatís statements resonated with me.

KF:

As I understand it, the increased crime rate in Mississippi is almost totally due to a rapid increase in crime in the City of Jackson. Should it be reported more? Probably. But, Jackson is a small city compared to NYC. Crime in NYC will almost always get more coverage than Jackson, MS. Thatís probably true of many national news outlets, not just FNC.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

Back to Top
  
Showing Replies:  251 - 258  of 258 Posts
Jump to Page:  < Previous    1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11
View Other 'General Ohio University Discussion/Alumni Events' Topics
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             




Copyright ©2021 BobcatAttack.com. All rights reserved.  |  Privacy Policy  |  Terms of Use
Partner of USA TODAY Sports Digital Properties