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Topic:  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Topic:  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/27/2017 9:12:26 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:

Respectful question - what if we didn't play the anthem before the game and just let the players come out an play like they do in little league baseball?



In theory, I have no problem with that. Many think the anthem is played too often at sporting events. I'm inclined to agree. I like to hear it for Olympic events or for any international game like World Cup, because it's relevant. For every Sunday games, maybe it's unnecessary. Having said that, I do think there's something to the concept of bringing the fans together in something of a solemn moment. A moment of silence is not really appropriate, so if not the anthem, what then?

While I could support that solution, I have to also say it's a bit of a cop out. Kind of side-stepping an issue that begs to be addressed.


Another respectful question - why do you think there's something to the concept of bringing fans together in something of a solemn moment? When I coached I found all of the pre-game rituals/routines to be somewhat of a distraction to why we were playing.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/27/2017 9:25:29 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:

Another respectful question - why do you think there's something to the concept of bringing fans together in something of a solemn moment? When I coached I found all of the pre-game rituals/routines to be somewhat of a distraction to why we were playing.


I'm not referring to youth sports or even high school sports. I'm referring mostly to professional-level sports. In that arena, I think it's noble tradition to find common ground before the teams "do battle." It establishes what's important in contrast to what is merely entertainment.

Is it absolutely necessary? No. But it's a good tradition, especially for large-scale games like playoffs, super bowls, and international competitions.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/27/2017 9:27:18 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:

Another respectful question - why do you think there's something to the concept of bringing fans together in something of a solemn moment? When I coached I found all of the pre-game rituals/routines to be somewhat of a distraction to why we were playing.


I'm not referring to youth sports or even high school sports. I'm referring mostly to professional-level sports. In that arena, I think it's noble tradition to find common ground before the teams "do battle." It establishes what's important in contrast to what is merely entertainment.

Is it absolutely necessary? No. But it's a good tradition, especially for large-scale games like playoffs, super bowls, and international competitions.


I can agree with that last statement but is a flag the size of the whole field and jet flyovers really necessary for a regular season game? Heck, we had a flyover for the Kansas game.

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/27/2017 9:29:23 PM 
Probably not, but that's as much a result of hyper active marketing folks as it is any over-zealous nationalism. No matter what, the participants love to emulate the pros. So no matter what the fanfare you see in the NFL, it's a matter of time before you see it in the lower levels, in some cases, all the way down to peewee.
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/27/2017 9:46:07 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:

Another respectful question - why do you think there's something to the concept of bringing fans together in something of a solemn moment? When I coached I found all of the pre-game rituals/routines to be somewhat of a distraction to why we were playing.


I'm not referring to youth sports or even high school sports. I'm referring mostly to professional-level sports. In that arena, I think it's noble tradition to find common ground before the teams "do battle." It establishes what's important in contrast to what is merely entertainment.

Is it absolutely necessary? No. But it's a good tradition, especially for large-scale games like playoffs, super bowls, and international competitions.


I can agree with that last statement but is a flag the size of the whole field and jet flyovers really necessary for a regular season game? Heck, we had a flyover for the Kansas game.



During my youth I tended to poo-poo ceremony. Then early during my soldiering days in Korea I happened to see an honor guard company made up of soldiers from 5 nations - South Korea, U.S., Britain, Thailand, Turkey - rehearsing an honor guard ceremony. I experienced something of an epiphany; I now saw ceremony as an important thread in our cultural fabric - a reminder of important values.

That's how I view the playing of the anthem before events - football games and otherwise.

Still, as I said earlier in this thread, while seeing folks kneeling during the anthem disturbs me, it doesn't send me spiraling into apoplexy.


http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/27/2017 10:33:55 PM 
cc-cat wrote:

I never called or implied you as a racist - but this (the reason for protest) is a racial issue therefore the protest and the discussions will always have racial overtones and implications


Robert Fox wrote:
The cause of the protests--police brutality--is a racial issue. The kneeling is not. People who are offended by the kneeling would be, and are, offended by anyone who kneels, black, white, whatever.



included my whole statement so that we can all see we are both saying the same thing. I never said, those offended were offended because a race was doing something. Only that those (NOT YOU) that do not see why black athletes are protesting are blind to the situation.

cc-cat wrote:

I never said I would take a knee, only that I support ones right to - and absolutely support their reasoning.



Robert Fox wrote:
Why not? Why not support by taking part? If it's a powerful message for the players, wouldn't it be made even more powerful by believers, like you, taking part?



40 years ago my brother protested the war without burning the flag, or his draft card (he was drafted). Sunday lending my hand to my friend's shoulder I did take part - in my way - and a way many others (on the field and off) are doing so. I never said taking a knee was not hurtful to others and their views - I understand it is. I HAVE said that I think the pain of the racial injustice is more painful to individuals and, I think, the country. (We can disagree on that). Therefore I have no issue if someone takes a knee, I chose to lend my hand. As I said in my original post, my gesture was to lend support to a friend, not a statement about the anthem or to "stick it' to a conservative or otherwise that feel offended by someone taking a knee. Perhaps a step to middle or common ground.

Last Edited: 9/27/2017 10:38:02 PM by cc-cat

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/27/2017 10:36:34 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
I trust that you genuinely support the cause, and that you were a genuine supporter of the Civil Rights Movement in the 60s.

But I can't even imagine how you rationalize your support for the GOP given that support. I would be genuinely interested in trying to understand it, because in terms of both policy and rhetoric conservatism today feels very regressive in regards to Civil Rights. How do you, for instance, consider yourself a strong supporter of the Civil Rights movent and support a party that's systematically and blatantly pushing to make it more difficult for black citizens to vote? Those two things feel very at odds with one another, and it's hard for me to accept that you support the cause of this movement when you vote against the movement's interests.


Only time for a brief response, so I'll just list a two quick answers that can be expanded upon later:

1. I don't see voter ID laws as unreasonable; I don't see them as akin to poll taxes, KKK voter intimidation, etc.; requiring some minimal effort to register to vote and ID yourself when voting seems more than reasonable to me. As much as some try to paint this as a racial issue, I personally don't see it that way. There are probably as many whites who have minimal interest in politics who refuse to or don't care enough about voting to register and come to the polls with a proper ID. I believe it is very important to have integrity in our voting system, and voter ID laws seem to me to help in this regard.

2. I'm extremely pro-life. I would never knowingly vote for a candidate who supports abortion-on-demand. Except in rare circumstances I consider all abortions to be murder. There are a few situations (gross fetal deformity, certain genetic disorders that doom a person to a life of total misery, etc.) where I feel abortion might be justifiable homicide. And, as you probably know, proportionately many more black babies are aborted than white babies. And, the founder of Planned Parenthood had that as a actual goal. How can you support Planned Parenthood and then say you are for black rights? To reduce it to a bumper sticker: "I'm Pro Life and I Vote."




Appreciate the reply. Sorry, I missed this in all the hubbub earlier.

We don't agree on issue one, but I respect the thought you've put into it. I think the case in North Carolina in particular, where GOP emails were released about the strategy, undermined a lot of the GOP talking points about voter IDs. In that case, it was about race. They stated in plainly. Maybe that's not the case nationally, but it becomes hard to give them the benefit of the doubt after that.

As for two, I can respect that a single issue drives you more than others. I suspect voters with your profile are quite common on the right, and while we don't see eye-to-eye on this, I do respect your commitment to principles you believe in.


Thanks for your respectful reply. I've tried to be respectful here to those I disagree with. Now, I'm going to exit this thread and concentrate on OHIO football and our common goal of getting a MACC. Channeling my inner-Monroe there, I guess! ;-)


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/27/2017 11:58:42 PM 
/\/\/\/\/\/\

Agree - it is also time to take a moment and remember Hugh Heffner - God rest his soul.....and body

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rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 10:16:50 AM 
Don't know how I would have made it through puberty without him.
(Well his magazine anyway).

Still remember, back at O.U.,the back and forth borrowing of the latest editions of Playboy,Penthouse and Oui.
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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 10:18:45 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Allen, Bobcat squared and CC, I couldn't agree more with the things you have said on this thread. Robert, You just leave me shaking my head.


Great dialogue, BTC. You're a champ. You might want to consult with DelBobcat. Pretty sure this is logical fallacy you're making, but I can't remember. He'll know for sure.


What is your issue with me dude? Like I said before, I've had some big disagreements with lots of our conservative friends on this board but we've never taken shots at each other like you continually take them at me. I really enjoy these debates because I often get to hear perspectives that I would not be exposed to otherwise. But you really bring it down for me with this stuff.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 11:31:59 AM 
DelBobcat wrote:

(Referring to Robert Fox) This is really silly and shallow thinking.


You then called OCF's memory into question. At that, I called you pretentious.

DelBobcat wrote:

I have had lots of disagreements with folks here. Many of them I respect and I value the perspective they bring to the table. All I get from you is name calling.


This tone might have done it.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 11:58:07 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:

(Referring to Robert Fox) This is really silly and shallow thinking.


You then called OCF's memory into question. At that, I called you pretentious.

DelBobcat wrote:

I have had lots of disagreements with folks here. Many of them I respect and I value the perspective they bring to the table. All I get from you is name calling.


This tone might have done it.


Sorry man, but I don't think you're particularly aware when it comes to tone.

You say, about your contributions to this thread: "I attempted to enter this discussion and keep it civil. I get tired of being labeled with BS and continually accused of being thick headed."

Now here are your actual contributions:

You started by supporting the notion that the fact that NFL players are millionaires somehow invalidates their stance. When asked for clarity, you said:

"If you can't see the irony in his comments, then I can't shed any more light on it."

You then jumped in with this cool, sarcastic critique of the methodology:

"What will be the end-game of all this kneeling, I wonder? How will the country be "healed" by this kneeling? Since the point is about police brutality, I wonder if police departments across the USA will suddenly change their policies? 

How soon can we expect the healing to begin? I wonder if all the kneeling participants know what the issue is? The female singer who kneeled after the performance? The 8-year-old youth football players? I wonder if white people are capable of understanding the complexities here?"

To summarize, the protesters don't even know what they're protesting, and nothing's going to change. And of course, a bit of white grief thrown in.

Is that how you define a civil conversation? That's not a discussion, it's a post that, whether you know it or not, is obviously antagonistic.

Then you responded to a post criticizing racists to see if you were racist, too:

"If I'm against the kneeling, am I a racist too?"  

Here you are accusing people of calling you thick headed and labelling you with BS -- meanwhile, you're literally seeking that shit out. The post you were responding to wasn't in reference to you. It didn't call everybody who opposed kneeling racist. It was simply critical of racists on the other side of this issue. You read that post and, somehow, felt like you were being called racist.

And then there's this:

"That sentence alone explains the entire disconnect between right and left on this issue. On the right, that's absolutely what this is about. You can claim it's not, but that doesn't change anything. That basic fact is what's lost on the kneelers. It is a monumental slap in the face to those who are protective of their own country. If you begin a dialogue by first insulting your opposition, you won't likely get very far."

Imagine, for a second, how different this conversation would be if you weren't so inclined to see this as a personal insult. Nothing about what Colin Kaepernick did is an insult to you. He quietly and peacefully knelt during the national anthem. That you feel like that's a slap in the face to you personally is, honestly, ridiculous. It epitomizes the outrage culture that's made our political discourse worthless. You're basically saying that because you felt insulted, you're not going to have a conversation. But you're unwilling to examine your own sensitivity and ask whether it's justified.

Nobody on the right's willing to acknowledge it, but you're just the PC police in this case. You didn't like somebody's actions, and felt insulted, so you're shouting them down and insisting you don't have to listen to what they say. It's exactly what you constantly rail about. You're guilty of the exact same things you criticize your opposition for. You're just not self-aware enough to see it.


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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 12:21:38 PM 
Where to begin...

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Now here are your actual contributions:

You started by supporting the notion that the fact that NFL players are millionaires somehow invalidates their stance. When asked for clarity, you said:

"If you can't see the irony in his comments, then I can't shed any more light on it."


No. You totally missed it.
LynxRufus6 wrote:

Judging by your name I shouldn't be surprised


That crack referred to HockingCat who is the one who made the suggestion about players being millionaires. Lynx insinuated that, based on HockingCat's name, he must ignorant.

Now show me where I said anything at all about millionaire status disqualifying one's opinion. You can't because it's not there. Instead, you've manufactured an opponent in this thread, and I am the poster child for the points you don't like. I won't bother disputing your other "facts" about me. It won't change your mind or mine.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 12:24:09 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Where to begin...

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Now here are your actual contributions:

You started by supporting the notion that the fact that NFL players are millionaires somehow invalidates their stance. When asked for clarity, you said:

"If you can't see the irony in his comments, then I can't shed any more light on it."


No. You totally missed it.
LynxRufus6 wrote:

Judging by your name I shouldn't be surprised


That crack referred to HockingCat who is the one who made the suggestion about players being millionaires. Lynx insinuated that, based on HockingCat's name, he must ignorant.

Now show me where I said anything at all about millionaire status disqualifying one's opinion. You can't because it's not there. Instead, you've manufactured an opponent in this thread, and I am the poster child for the points you don't like. I won't bother disputing your other "facts" about me. It won't change your mind or mine.


So I misunderstood one comment and you decide the conversation's not worth having. You continue to prove my point. You're the most sensitive person here.

Last Edited: 9/28/2017 12:24:51 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 12:30:02 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

So I misunderstood one comment and you decide the conversation's not worth having. You continue to prove my point. You're the most sensitive person here.


Right. I said earlier "let them kneel" and I meant it. You want to kneel during the anthem? Do it. I have not once attempted to stop them. Meanwhile all I hear is the repeated statement that this is their right to do. First, no it's not. Not in an NFL game if the NFL and/or the owners say not to. Second, I have not once asked for them to be stopped. If they want to make a statement, they'll have to accept public reaction to it. And that's what they're getting.

I've been having a "conversation" about this issue since Alan started the thread. What the hell are you talking about?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 12:31:28 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

So I misunderstood one comment and you decide the conversation's not worth having. You continue to prove my point. You're the most sensitive person here.


Right. I said earlier "let them kneel" and I meant it. You want to kneel during the anthem? Do it. I have not once attempted to stop them. Meanwhile all I hear is the repeated statement that this is their right to do. First, no it's not. Not in an NFL game if the NFL and/or the owners say not to. Second, I have not once asked for them to be stopped. If they want to make a statement, they'll have to accept public reaction to it. And that's what they're getting.

I've been having a "conversation" about this issue since Alan started the thread. What the hell are you talking about?


I'm talking about your tone, and the "conversation" you've been having, which as I illustrated, was largely about your unwillingness to have a conversation.

You literally said you won't have a conversation because you felt insulted. That's what I'm talking about. Saying words does not a conversation make.

Last Edited: 9/28/2017 12:31:46 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 12:34:22 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

You literally said you won't have a conversation because you felt insulted. That's what I'm talking about. Saying words does not a conversation make.



Could you cite that for me? I'm having trouble remembering that.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 12:37:56 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

You literally said you won't have a conversation because you felt insulted. That's what I'm talking about. Saying words does not a conversation make.



Could you cite that for me? I'm having trouble remembering that.


It was in the post you refused to address two posts ago.

Here it is again:

"That sentence alone explains the entire disconnect between right and left on this issue. On the right, that's absolutely what this is about. You can claim it's not, but that doesn't change anything. That basic fact is what's lost on the kneelers. It is a monumental slap in the face to those who are protective of their own country. If you begin a dialogue by first insulting your opposition, you won't likely get very far."

See that last sentence? You were insulted, so the dialogue didn't go anywhere. And that's fine, because you felt insulted and you have your right to a safe space, or whatever.

Last Edited: 9/28/2017 12:39:06 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 12:47:45 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

You literally said you won't have a conversation because you felt insulted. That's what I'm talking about. Saying words does not a conversation make.



Could you cite that for me? I'm having trouble remembering that.


It was in the post you refused to address two posts ago.

Here it is again:

"That sentence alone explains the entire disconnect between right and left on this issue. On the right, that's absolutely what this is about. You can claim it's not, but that doesn't change anything. That basic fact is what's lost on the kneelers. It is a monumental slap in the face to those who are protective of their own country. If you begin a dialogue by first insulting your opposition, you won't likely get very far."

See that last sentence? You were insulted, so the dialogue didn't go anywhere. And that's fine, because you felt insulted and you have your right to a safe space, or whatever.


Once again, no. Where did I "literally" say I would not have a conversation about it? My statement above was about the disconnect between right and left. I made the point that common ground is seldom if ever reached by way of insulting your opposition. I did not say I would not have a conversation. My post count along in this thread should prove that's true. This point is, apparently, lost on you.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 12:51:45 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

You literally said you won't have a conversation because you felt insulted. That's what I'm talking about. Saying words does not a conversation make.



Could you cite that for me? I'm having trouble remembering that.


It was in the post you refused to address two posts ago.

Here it is again:

"That sentence alone explains the entire disconnect between right and left on this issue. On the right, that's absolutely what this is about. You can claim it's not, but that doesn't change anything. That basic fact is what's lost on the kneelers. It is a monumental slap in the face to those who are protective of their own country. If you begin a dialogue by first insulting your opposition, you won't likely get very far."

See that last sentence? You were insulted, so the dialogue didn't go anywhere. And that's fine, because you felt insulted and you have your right to a safe space, or whatever.


Once again, no. Where did I "literally" say I would not have a conversation about it? My statement above was about the disconnect between right and left. I made the point that common ground is seldom if ever reached by way of insulting your opposition. I did not say I would not have a conversation. My post count along in this thread should prove that's true. This point is, apparently, lost on you.


And what's lost on you is that post content is far more important than post count. You went 10 pages before you actually started having a conversation. In response to your critiques of others, I was attempting to demonstrate how your tone wasn't about a civil conversation.

And your reaction to my post has been more of the same. It took me three extra posts just to get you to read what I wrote.

And at the end of that, you Pat yourself on the back for post count.

Last Edited: 9/28/2017 12:52:26 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 12:58:26 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


And your reaction to my post has been more of the same. It took me three extra posts just to get you to read what I wrote.

And at the end of that, you Pat yourself on the back for post count.


And again, no. I read your post the first time. It made as much sense then as it does now. You said I literally refused to have a conversation. Except that, no I didn't say that. Nothing close to it, either.

You are, however, doing a nice job of proving one of your multiple shots at me: that words do not a conversation make.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 1:10:19 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


And your reaction to my post has been more of the same. It took me three extra posts just to get you to read what I wrote.

And at the end of that, you Pat yourself on the back for post count.


And again, no. I read your post the first time. It made as much sense then as it does now. You said I literally refused to have a conversation. Except that, no I didn't say that. Nothing close to it, either.

You are, however, doing a nice job of proving one of your multiple shots at me: that words do not a conversation make.


The conversation you were having was about why the conversation isn't happening. Can you not see that? Why you say "don't start by insulting your opponent" you're arguing against having a conversation. Every critique you made -- from methodology to your reaction to accusing the kneelers of insulting you -- is nothing but avoidance. You're looking for reasons not to engage on the point at hand, and insisting the issue here is disrespect towards the flag and justifying your refusal because you felt insulted and "browbeaten." It is the EXACT argument that whiny little liberals make on college campuses.

I've made my point, and provided quotes from you that clearly lay out your stance. If you think your contributions to this threat constitute a civil conversation, so be it. With the exception of the "millionaire thing", which I admit to having misinterpreted, your posts in the first 9 pages of this thread were antagonistic and sarcastic. I tried to point that out to you when you were critical of another's tone. I thought, wrongfully, that you might see yourself in a different light when you could compare it to how you perceived another poster.

I was wrong, obviously. You play the victim constantly. You're overly sensitive, perceive insults where there are none, and then use those perceived slights to justify your snark and unwillingness to converse.

Last Edited: 9/28/2017 1:29:24 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 2:23:57 PM 
Gentlemen - exchange phone numbers or meet for a beer.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 2:52:05 PM 
Only one of us is not hiding behind a handle, so I don't think that's going to happen.
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 6,172

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/28/2017 2:53:49 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Only one of us is not hiding behind a handle, so I don't think that's going to happen.


On that point, you and I are in full agreement. I was going to offer to buy the first round too.

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