Welcome Guest!
Create an Account
login email:
password:
site searchwhere to watchcontact usabout usadvertise with ushelp
Message Board
BobcatAttack.com Message Board
Ohio Basketball
Topic:  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...

Topic:  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
Author
Message
Chicken George
General User

Member Since: 1/2/2005
Post Count: 762

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:21:59 PM 
Still don't blame JG one bit.  I'd just like to find a guy who has a little entrepreneurial spirit and thinks to themselves, "I'm going to create my own $1.3 million gig in Athens."  Kind of hoped this was the case with JG when one of his family members recently told me, "John's talked about making OHIO into the next Duke."  That's the kind of guy I wish we could find, but don't blame guys who choose the guaranteed (though short term) short cut to $1.3."  There's only a few of those pioneers out there in the basketball world, but each of our cities is filled with business guys who decided to try to make it themselves vs. going with the big company. 
Back to Top
  
Bhugh24
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 50

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:23:51 PM 
We should start saying "we wish you well in your future endeavors..."

We can't compete with Illinois and that offer. I love OU and our season and what the future holds, but I would tell him to take that job in a second. Why?

5 or 6 years of guaranteed big money, being able to offer assistants $150,000+, premier conference, resources...you can't pass up that chance. He could never get this chance again...even with a great year next year, you still need a lot of luck to hit it big in the MAC tournament, not just the NCAA.

You secure your family's future with that deal and you get to do something you love.

Thank him for the great run and the memories, and hope that he leaves a program on strong footing that can continue into the future.
Back to Top
  
Mike Coleman
Administrator



Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Near the Pristine Sandy Shores of Lake Erie, OH
Post Count: 1,299

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:24:04 PM 
Bobcat Love wrote:
He shouldn't have jumped for a penny less than $1.75 or $1.8m. $1.3 is an insult imo.

Who's advising him?


Agree 100%. Nebraska is reportedly paying Tim Miles $1.4 million. Nebraska!
Back to Top
  
perimeterpost
General User



Member Since: 7/6/2010
Post Count: 3,165

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:25:05 PM 
I think we're overly romanticizing the situation if we think that the reason this deal isn't done is because Groce is doing some serious soul searching. He isn't praying for guidance, he's praying for more $$$$.

Let's get this over with so we can get the new coach in here and he can begin the daunting task of finding the replacements for the class of 2013.

MY STATE. MY TEAM.
Back to Top
  
OhioCatFan
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:26:36 PM 
Chicken George wrote:
Still don't blame JG one bit.  I'd just like to find a guy who has a little entrepreneurial spirit and thinks to themselves, "I'm going to create my own $1.3 million gig in Athens."  Kind of hoped this was the case with JG when one of his family members recently told me, "John's talked about making OHIO into the next Duke."  That's the kind of guy I wish we could find, but don't blame guys who choose the guaranteed (though short term) short cut to $1.3."  There's only a few of those pioneers out there in the basketball world, but each of our cities is filled with business guys who decided to try to make it themselves vs. going with the big company. 


We are on the same page here, Chicken.  I'm hoping for that pioneer.  They are out there, but they're rare.  Shaka Smart, for instance, appears to be one of them.  We need our own Shaka.  That is what I thought Groce was going to be like.  The quote from the family member is what I thought he was all about.  Right now, it's still possible, but if the latest Tribune report is accurate, it may be going the other way.  

Last Edited: 3/28/2012 10:28:24 PM by OhioCatFan

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

Back to Top
  
bornacatfan
General User



Member Since: 8/3/2006
Post Count: 5,706

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:30:10 PM 
Illinoisfan wrote:
OUVan wrote:
Illinoisfan wrote:
but he is simply not ready at this point in my opinion.


Based on what?


I mostly base that assumption on his lack of success in the MAC regular season. Sure, he won the MAC tournament title and made a good run in the tournament, but he's finished 2 out of 4 seasons with a losing conference record, One mediocre 9-7 finish, and this year's 11-5 + run in the tournament. 

Now imagine if he had been playing the likes of OSU, MSU, UM, IU, WISC, etc etc. He won't get to beat up on NIU and the likes anymore.


His conference record in the MAC is not impressive at all, at 34-30, nearly .500. His overall record is slightly better, but not as good as Bruce Weber's was even.

Sure, he has led your team to a good season this year, with a great finish, but it won't be so easy this year. He won't be able to win the B1G conference tournament like he did the MAC tournament for Ohio. 

This is too big of a gamble for the U of I, which already has enough to deal with. 


This is just shoddy work. I said before the work you guys are turning in is not well done and would have been done by a bobcatattacker in 2 pages what took your board over a hundred to get done... like the double spaced every other line skipped stuff you handed in to the freshman English teacher in High School getting the rolled eyes treatment and admonishment that you need to go back and do a better job...fix it.

Throwing out those numbers tells me you did not do the work. You did not look at who he recruited to Butler, X , Ohio State as the lead recruiter and that you have no idea how this all works. YOu know very littel of the MAC and have not paid attention to everyone from Vitale and Knight to most of the major talking heads  talking about the parity in the league and the difficulty in winning out at this level. Then you top it off assuming he would bring MAC players to Illinois when he brought Oden and COnley out of Indiana to that football school in Columbus ahead of Purdue and Indiana then threw in Cook, Deibler, Thomas and Craft just for good measure along with a ton of other supporting role players.

Weak work my friend. Sorry. YOu are one of the sane Illini guys but you misjudged this one ....but hey ... I have long been saying there are no good stops on this year's coaching carousel to anyone who wold listen and you guys are making me look pretty good at this point.

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

Back to Top
  
Bhugh24
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 50

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:30:30 PM 
Mike Coleman wrote:
Bobcat Love wrote:
He shouldn't have jumped for a penny less than $1.75 or $1.8m. $1.3 is an insult imo.

Who's advising him?


Agree 100%. Nebraska is reportedly paying Tim Miles $1.4 million. Nebraska!


Not trying to be sarcastic, but why is it such a bad thing to "settle" for the $1.3 - 1.5 Million? Especially if we are talking guaranteed years?

How many other schools can offer this that have an opening this year? KState?

And at most OU could do $500k/$600k...

He's got one chance at this.
Back to Top
  
Mike Coleman
Administrator



Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Near the Pristine Sandy Shores of Lake Erie, OH
Post Count: 1,299

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:33:14 PM 
Bhugh24 wrote:
Mike Coleman wrote:
Bobcat Love wrote:
He shouldn't have jumped for a penny less than $1.75 or $1.8m. $1.3 is an insult imo.

Who's advising him?


Agree 100%. Nebraska is reportedly paying Tim Miles $1.4 million. Nebraska!


Not trying to be sarcastic, but why is it such a bad thing to "settle" for the $1.3 - 1.5 Million? Especially if we are talking guaranteed years?

How many other schools can offer this that have an opening this year? KState?

And at most OU could do $500k/$600k...

He's got one chance at this.


Says who. Look at his recruits coming in. We were stocked for years. Larranaga stayed, never had the same success and still moved on years later. Salaries aren't trending down.
Back to Top
  
Gangsta Pete
General User



Member Since: 3/20/2012
Location: Raleigh, NC
Post Count: 62

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:33:23 PM 
@JArkley_Ohio via Twitter wrote:
Groce to Illinois deal has been imminent since Monday night. Is it now extra-imminent?

"There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path."  -Morpheus
Back to Top
  
Chicken George
General User

Member Since: 1/2/2005
Post Count: 762

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:33:36 PM 
Bobcat Love/Mike---and that's what "might" crash this deal.  If his pride gets in the way of the big picture, assuming he really wants the UI job, he might tell them to stick it if they don't budge just for the sake of the principle of the matter.
But in the 12th hour, I think he backs down if necessary and takes the $$$.

The only thread of hope, and it's a long shot at very best (seems like about 0.5% right now), is that he really does want to build "a Duke at OHIO" and this is his one big poker play to budge the powers at OHIO to pony up money.  He gets a lot of promises for salaries/facilities, etc... that this current position provides him so that he can move the boat at a faster pace from this point forward.  Once again, that would be the mindset of a entrepreneurial type coach who's working the system now that he has some power to get the resources he needs for future growth.  That's the "path less traveled" and right now I'm thinking he's taking the status quo path of a successful MAC coach.
Back to Top
  
Bobcat Love
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 953

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:33:47 PM 
Bhugh24 wrote:


He's got one chance at this.


Exactly. It's a money grab. You don't leave anything on the table. The fact that they're haggling over $1.2 and $1.375 tells me Illinois definitely got the better of JG in this one. They didn't do much right but getting Groce on the cheap (with favorable termination terms I'm sure) is a feather in their cap.
Back to Top
  
mf279801
General User

Member Since: 8/6/2010
Location: Newark, DE
Post Count: 2,454

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:36:31 PM 
(if true) 

but (again, if true) I hope JG is successful enough that he can ditch Illinois for a GOOD high-major program in 2-3 years.

edit: again, if all of this is true. Hopefully this is another case of Illinois reporters being illinois reporters.

Last Edited: 3/28/2012 10:38:12 PM by mf279801
Back to Top
  
Illinoisfan
General User

Member Since: 3/27/2012
Post Count: 40

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:37:52 PM 
bornacatfan wrote:
Illinoisfan wrote:
OUVan wrote:
Illinoisfan wrote:
but he is simply not ready at this point in my opinion.


Based on what?


I mostly base that assumption on his lack of success in the MAC regular season. Sure, he won the MAC tournament title and made a good run in the tournament, but he's finished 2 out of 4 seasons with a losing conference record, One mediocre 9-7 finish, and this year's 11-5 + run in the tournament. 

Now imagine if he had been playing the likes of OSU, MSU, UM, IU, WISC, etc etc. He won't get to beat up on NIU and the likes anymore.


His conference record in the MAC is not impressive at all, at 34-30, nearly .500. His overall record is slightly better, but not as good as Bruce Weber's was even.

Sure, he has led your team to a good season this year, with a great finish, but it won't be so easy this year. He won't be able to win the B1G conference tournament like he did the MAC tournament for Ohio. 

This is too big of a gamble for the U of I, which already has enough to deal with. 


This is just shoddy work. I said before the work you guys are turning in is not well done and would have been done by a bobcatattacker in 2 pages what took your board over a hundred to get done... like the double spaced every other line skipped stuff you handed in to the freshman English teacher in High School getting the rolled eyes treatment and admonishment that you need to go back and do a better job...fix it.

Throwing out those numbers tells me you did not do the work. You did not look at who he recruited to Butler, X , Ohio State as the lead recruiter and that you have no idea how this all works. YOu know very littel of the MAC and have not paid attention to everyone from Vitale and Knight to most of the major talking heads  talking about the parity in the league and the difficulty in winning out at this level. Then you top it off assuming he would bring MAC players to Illinois when he brought Oden and COnley out of Indiana to that football school in Columbus ahead of Purdue and Indiana then threw in Cook, Deibler, Thomas and Craft just for good measure along with a ton of other supporting role players.

Weak work my friend. Sorry. YOu are one of the sane Illini guys but you misjudged this one ....but hey ... I have long been saying there are no good stops on this year's coaching carousel to anyone who wold listen and you guys are making me look pretty good at this point.



You might be right, you do know more about the guy than I do.

I hope you are right. Illinois can't afford to mess up anymore.
Back to Top
  
bornacatfan
General User



Member Since: 8/3/2006
Post Count: 5,706

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:39:18 PM 
Bobcat Love wrote:
Bhugh24 wrote:


He's got one chance at this.


Exactly. It's a money grab. You don't leave anything on the table. The fact that they're haggling over $1.2 and $1.375 tells me Illinois definitely got the better of JG in this one. They didn't do much right but getting Groce on the cheap (with favorable termination terms I'm sure) is a feather in their cap.




And the bad part is that if he jumps at this he very well could find himself following the path of his mentor, Lickliter in the Big Ten experiement.....used up and sitting next chair while he collects and lives off of buy out money....courtesy of a fanbase and a few coaches who don't like him from day one.

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

Back to Top
  
Recovering Journalist
General User

Member Since: 8/17/2010
Location: Cleveland, OH
Post Count: 1,839

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:39:45 PM 
I get that this is emotional, and that people have differing opinions, but we're talking about tons of guaranteed money here. I don't know how anyone could question taking a raise of that magnitude with guaranteed money versus staying in a situation where the athletic department is in the red, every cent of a raise is likely to cause consternation and angst, and the only way to get to the dance is winning a challenging conference tournament. As an Ohio fan, I'm disappointed. As a human being, I get it, I wish Groce well, and I admire that he's apparently helping out his assistants.
Back to Top
  
Sneak20
General User

Member Since: 3/28/2012
Post Count: 4

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:40:03 PM 
I would love to see him build the program. I have coached and been around basketball my entire life. Maybe it's just me but I'm always the guy who wants to go to the underdog school and make it big. Even as a player I loved going into a game being the underdog. Groce and the entire MAC are in a place where they can get two seeds in the tournament if Ohio does well next year and the MAC is as to schedule a few good games in the beginning of the season. And the other thing ( and I know this sounds stupid). Money isn't everything. Family plays a big part in your decision. And where you live and the community. I would without a doubt take a job for less money to stay In a place I am happy and to build a program. He is a hero here.
Back to Top
  
Bhugh24
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 50

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:41:29 PM 
Mike/Bobcat Love - I see your points (the Larranga analogy is a good one).

Nothing is promised either way in the future - next season could be great (another sweet 16 run) or could implode (injuries/bad luck) or somewhere in between (better team/but get upset in tourney)...even with the prospects of trying to building your own Duke.

I hoped he'd give one more year with the seniors, but I can't blame him for taking him this job. I am happy for him.
Back to Top
  
Chicken George
General User

Member Since: 1/2/2005
Post Count: 762

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:48:34 PM 
Most of the details are very different, but UM hiring RichRod from WVU, does have one potential similarity to the feel of this.  UM fans/alumni didn't want him from day one and he wasn't one of them.  Consequently, they didn't give him a chance and was eventually run out of town.  And like JG, RichRod was great with the media, charismatic, well spoken and had won everywhere he'd been.  No doubt had they embraced him, he would've won at UM.  They didn't, he didn't,  he's in Arizona and he wishes he was back at WVU.
Back to Top
  
mf279801
General User

Member Since: 8/6/2010
Location: Newark, DE
Post Count: 2,454

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:50:21 PM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
I get that this is emotional, and that people have differing opinions, but we're talking about tons of guaranteed money here. I don't know how anyone could question taking a raise of that magnitude with guaranteed money versus staying in a situation where the athletic department is in the red, every cent of a raise is likely to cause consternation and angst, and the only way to get to the dance is winning a challenging conference tournament. As an Ohio fan, I'm disappointed. As a human being, I get it, I wish Groce well, and I admire that he's apparently helping out his assistants.


No one (or very few) is questioning "taking a raise of that magnitude", especially if its guaranteed, we're lamenting it, hoping it doesn't happen, cutting the heads off of chickens in bizarre voodoo ceremonies to bring about a change of mind, etc.
Back to Top
  
TheRealMikeDrake
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Delaware, OH
Post Count: 300

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:53:42 PM 
It wouldn't surprise me if those numbers are low, or if this ends with Groce getting what we was quoted as asking. 

This is only the 68 NCAA tournament teams, but 28 guys made 1.3MM or more.  Factor in the guys like Weber who didn't make the tournament, and maybe we can say there are about 35 jobs out there that pay that money or will pay that money.  Is this the right fit?  Is it worth it? 

I think he'll take it because of proximity, but he doesn't have to wilt to Illinois.  Groce doesn't have to even match what he did this year, he'll be in the mix for the same level of jobs.  And perhaps one without an outgoing president or jilted BOT.

(Larranaga as mentioned struck while the iron was cold, and still doubled his salary to a cool mill).

If he takes it, I'll thank him, root for him when it doesn't impede Ohio, and cherish the memories... 







(but he can as well next year in finding a suitor).
Back to Top
  
illinidrew
General User

Member Since: 3/25/2012
Post Count: 5

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:55:10 PM 
mf279801 wrote:
(if true) 

but (again, if true) I hope JG is successful enough that he can ditch Illinois for a GOOD high-major program in 2-3 years.

edit: again, if all of this is true. Hopefully this is another case of Illinois reporters being illinois reporters.


Really?  Illinois is not a GOOD high-major?  Historically we are top-15 at worst.  Almost everything else would be a lateral move outside of the few true elites like UNC/Duke/Kentucky/Kansas.  If Groce is successful, he will have us back as a top program.

I have enjoyed reading this board and it seems full of mostly classy fans.  It sucks to lose your coach, and I feel for you guys.  I think he has left your program in good shape and I hope your team has great success going forward.  Hopefully most of you will not be bitter and enjoy seeing coach Groce succeed at Illinois, assuming the deal is done tomorrow.
Back to Top
  
CATman
General User



Member Since: 11/16/2005
Post Count: 89

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:56:42 PM 
I'm interested more in the number Illinois is offering than anything else. 

If their ceiling is 5-6 years at 1.2 million, there's certainly a window of opportunity here for Ohio. 

Does something like 8 years, $650,000 per get it done?

Illinois: 5 years, 1.2 mil = 6 millon + incentives. 
Ohio: 8 years, $650,000 = 5.2 million + incentives. 

He's really not leaving a ton of guaranteed money on the table in such a scenario. It would simply come down to whether or not he aspires to coach at one of the elite programs (Duke, UNC, Kansas, etc.) one day. 

Again, I'd venture to guess that money may not be there for the AD but if you can get in that 50-55% range (of whatever the bigger school is offering) you certainly have a chance. 

illinois' offer is MUCH lower than I expected it to be......he may still end up there but I would have guessed the per year salary would have been at a minimum 1.5 million (low end) and was not going to be shocked if it was nearly 2. 


Last Edited: 3/28/2012 11:01:46 PM by CATman

My high school basketball coach had an old saying.....There are two things that don't last: Dogs that chase cars and teams that don't make free-throws.

Back to Top
  
anorris
General User



Member Since: 7/6/2010
Location: Bristol, CT
Post Count: 2,262

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:57:23 PM 
illinidrew wrote:
mf279801 wrote:
(if true) 

but (again, if true) I hope JG is successful enough that he can ditch Illinois for a GOOD high-major program in 2-3 years.

edit: again, if all of this is true. Hopefully this is another case of Illinois reporters being illinois reporters.


Really?  Illinois is not a GOOD high-major?  Historically we are top-15 at worst.  Almost everything else would be a lateral move outside of the few true elites like UNC/Duke/Kentucky/Kansas.  If Groce is successful, he will have us back as a top program.

I have enjoyed reading this board and it seems full of mostly classy fans.  It sucks to lose your coach, and I feel for you guys.  I think he has left your program in good shape and I hope your team has great success going forward.  Hopefully most of you will not be bitter and enjoy seeing coach Groce succeed at Illinois, assuming the deal is done tomorrow.
I absolutely would wish him the best and root for him, but I'm sure you won't deny that the program and school administration is a bit of a mess at the moment.  Maybe it's his last stop, maybe he jumps to a true "elite" a few years down the road if he does as good a job as I think he is capable of.  The deans of coaching at said elite programs aren't getting any younger.
Back to Top
  
Illinoisfan
General User

Member Since: 3/27/2012
Post Count: 40

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 10:57:39 PM 
illinidrew wrote:
mf279801 wrote:
(if true) 

but (again, if true) I hope JG is successful enough that he can ditch Illinois for a GOOD high-major program in 2-3 years.

edit: again, if all of this is true. Hopefully this is another case of Illinois reporters being illinois reporters.


Really?  Illinois is not a GOOD high-major?  Historically we are top-15 at worst.  Almost everything else would be a lateral move outside of the few true elites like UNC/Duke/Kentucky/Kansas.  If Groce is successful, he will have us back as a top program.

I have enjoyed reading this board and it seems full of mostly classy fans.  It sucks to lose your coach, and I feel for you guys.  I think he has left your program in good shape and I hope your team has great success going forward.  Hopefully most of you will not be bitter and enjoy seeing coach Groce succeed at Illinois, assuming the deal is done tomorrow.


I've been in on this thread for quite a while, and these Ohio fans are a classy bunch indeed. Know a lot about basketball, too. There will always be someone who dosen't like us, you know that.
Back to Top
  
Chicken George
General User

Member Since: 1/2/2005
Post Count: 762

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: A quick thought on Groce/Illinois...
   Posted: 3/28/2012 11:01:15 PM 
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/colleges/11585226-419/illinois-hires-a-basketball-coach-for-the-womens-team-john-groce-up-next.html
Back to Top
  
Showing Replies:  651 - 675  of 808 Posts
Jump to Page:  < Previous    1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33    Next >
View Other 'Ohio Basketball' Topics
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             



WHO'S ONLINE
There are 116 Active Visitors on BobcatAttack.com
116 Guests
0 Registered Users
There are no other users looking at this page.




Copyright ©2024 BobcatAttack.com. All rights reserved.  |  Privacy Policy  |  Terms of Use
Partner of USA TODAY Sports Digital Properties