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Topic:  RE: Another problem of Covid?

Topic:  RE: Another problem of Covid?
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Lande71
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/30/2020 10:15:34 PM 
Anyone else find it interesting or disturbing that several doctors collectively on Tuesday claim they have successfully treated the virus with hydroxyclorquine (spl?), zinc, and the antibiotic Zithromax only to have Ohio’s board of pharmacy to ban hydroxycloroquine the very next day? They claim their treatment causes patients to be remarkably better in a couple days with no deaths as a result. Their credentials included places like UCLA, Harvard, and a host of other medical entities.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/30/2020 10:39:31 PM 
Pataskala wrote:
This morning's numbers show 13 red-level counties in Ohio, down from 23 a week ago. Athens County is now at orange level; earlier this week it was red level, bordering on purple (the highest level for covid infection). Masks are certainly helping. But rural areas -- where mask use is a little more lax -- are starting to show increases.

I just took a look at the county by county numbers for Nebraska. Only one country has a mask mandate, Lancaster, and it's been in effect for about 10 days, so if it is going to have an impact, we should be seeing it now. I compared cases in the last 14 days to cases in the 14 days ended 7/25. Here are the counties with over 40 cases in the last 14 days:

Douglas: 1634, up from 1482 +10.3%
Lancaster: 654, down from 683, -4.3%
Sarpy: 449, up from 377, +19.1%
Buffalo: 94, up from 63, +49.2%
Hall: 66, up from 51, +29.4%
Dawson: 63, up from 33, +90.9%
Platte: 48m up from 40, +20.0%
Cass: 47, down from 52, -9.6%

So, the one county with a mask mandate has falling numbers of cases, while most other counties have seen rising cases. Douglas is having a meeting tomorrow, and is expected to announce a mask mandate starting Monday. It will be interesting to see if their cases start falling, as well.

Getting back to the original subject of this thread, the potential for long term damage, here's an article from CNN:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/19/health/long-covid-italy-uk...

Last Edited: 7/30/2020 10:41:40 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/30/2020 11:53:37 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:

You're entitled to your opinion on what would be considered "social isolation".

If you read the article I posted,a number of people feel just wearing or having to look at people wearing masks makes them feel socially isolated.


It's a bummer they feel this way. I'm not sure we're in a position to be able to worry about their feelings at the moment. Instead, I think we should be mandating masks in indoor public spaces to quash this thing as best we can.

rpbobcat wrote:

NJ is getting ready for indoor dining.
You would wear a mask until seated.
Then no mask until you leave.
The tables are 6' apart,but people entering or leaving can walk right along the tables.

Not really that different then going into a store,picking something up and leaving.


You're right, it's not different. But indoor dining's also been responsible for much of the spread in states like GA and FL. Morgan Stanley was able to connect data between in-restaurant credit card transactions and covid spread. I think this is a big risk at this stage.

rpbobcat wrote:

I can tell you at the market where my wife and I do a lot of our grocery shopping,there are a number of people,primarily elderly,who don't wear masks.

No one seems to have a problem with it,never heard anyone,including store employees say anything.


I believe epidemiologists have a problem with it though, right?


rpbobcat wrote:

Like I posted,my wife's Asthma affects her ability to wear a mask.
So it doesn't bother me when I see someone without one.

In fact,its none of my business.
If the store owner is O.K. with it,so be it.


This is a fairly narrow view of public health. You yourself pointed out this morning that wearing a mask provides protection to those around you, not to the wearer. So it kind of is your business and can become a pretty bleak business to be in really quickly.





1.You're right.
Why worry about the people who are feeling socially isolated because of masks ?
They don't count.

The statistics showing the increases in suicides,alcoholism or abuse (marital and children) because of the isolation of people felt,beginning with the lock downs aren't important,since we're dealing with the "greater good".

As I've posted,my wife is a visiting nurse.
A number of her patients,especially seniors, who have lost the most person to person contact, talk about how isolated they feel.

This is empirical,but the majority of people we've seen dining at restaurants are older.
(Younger people are still doing take out)

Some comments we've heard:

I needed to get out to see people again.

I wanted to be someplace where I could see people's faces.

2.You left out the other states like NY and Conn. where indoor dining hasn't resulted in any spikes in Covid.
NJ also opened Casinos.
People sitting there for hours is no different then indoor dining.
Again,no spikes.

The spikes in NJ have come from illegal house parties and similar gatherings.
Even our Governor had to admit these parties are going on because he's keeping bars, restaurants and other "gathering" places closed.

So people need a way to "blow off steam"

3.Again,their store,their rules.
If you're not comfortable seeing people shopping without masks,you don't
have to go in.
As far as epidemiologists,let them open a business and try to make a living,before saying anything but someone who is.

4.Yes,wearing a mask provides protection to those around you.
I wear one where I'm required to.
I follow the rules when it comes to masks.

But some people can't wear one.
That's a fact.
If they have a reason not to,fine.

The local news has reported a number of incidents where mask confrontations
have turned violent.

Apparently some people feel they have the right to ask someone why they're
not wearing a mask.
Legally,they don't.

If you think someone should be wearing a mask,call the police and let them handle it.

I don't know how much good a mask does or doesn't do.
But right now its the rule.

Although,as I posted,now Fauci wants googles to part of the rule too.

What's next ?
We all get to wear Tyvek suits ?




I'm not even sure what your point is anymore, man. Are you really making the case that "seeing other people wearing masks is socially isolating" and that that warrants equal consideration to a virus that's killed 150,000 people? I'm very genuinely lost.

I pointed out that I don't think it's "social isolation" to ask that people who can't wear masks try to avoid indoor public spaces. Those same people can see all the people they want at outdoor restaurants, bars, parks, etc. Because of that, I don't think it's going to increase suicide rates if they try and avoid going into Joanne's Fabrics, or wherever.

At no point have I suggested anybody confront people who aren't wearing masks. At no point have a suggested calling the police. In fact, I acknowledged there are valid reasons why people not wear masks.

I just asked that those people be considerate, given the potential risk they could pose to others. You very much disagree with that suggestion, I guess.

Last Edited: 7/31/2020 12:06:51 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 6:44:29 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


I'm not even sure what your point is anymore, man. Are you really making the case that "seeing other people wearing masks is socially isolating" and that that warrants equal consideration to a virus that's killed 150,000 people? I'm very genuinely lost.

I pointed out that I don't think it's "social isolation" to ask that people who can't wear masks try to avoid indoor public spaces. Those same people can see all the people they want at outdoor restaurants, bars, parks, etc. Because of that, I don't think it's going to increase suicide rates if they try and avoid going into Joanne's Fabrics, or wherever.

At no point have I suggested anybody confront people who aren't wearing masks. At no point have a suggested calling the police. In fact, I acknowledged there are valid reasons why people not wear masks.

I just asked that those people be considerate, given the potential risk they could pose to others. You very much disagree with that suggestion, I guess.


I'm making the point that,according to the article I referenced,yes,
some people do find wearing a mask socially isolating.

Again,you're entitled to your opinion on the impacts of the lock downs and other measures,when it comes to things like suicide,alcohol and drug use,and marital and child abuse.

I can tell you that,at least locally, our police departments have seen an exponential rise in overdose,domestic abuse and attempted suicides calls since the initial lock down March.

Your definition of considerate is different then mine.
So yes,I do disagree with your suggestion.

Last Edited: 7/31/2020 6:46:42 AM by rpbobcat
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 7:53:29 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


I'm not even sure what your point is anymore, man. Are you really making the case that "seeing other people wearing masks is socially isolating" and that that warrants equal consideration to a virus that's killed 150,000 people? I'm very genuinely lost.

I pointed out that I don't think it's "social isolation" to ask that people who can't wear masks try to avoid indoor public spaces. Those same people can see all the people they want at outdoor restaurants, bars, parks, etc. Because of that, I don't think it's going to increase suicide rates if they try and avoid going into Joanne's Fabrics, or wherever.

At no point have I suggested anybody confront people who aren't wearing masks. At no point have a suggested calling the police. In fact, I acknowledged there are valid reasons why people not wear masks.

I just asked that those people be considerate, given the potential risk they could pose to others. You very much disagree with that suggestion, I guess.


I'm making the point that,according to the article I referenced,yes,
some people do find wearing a mask socially isolating.

Again,you're entitled to your opinion on the impacts of the lock downs and other measures,when it comes to things like suicide,alcohol and drug use,and marital and child abuse.

I can tell you that,at least locally, our police departments have seen an exponential rise in overdose,domestic abuse and attempted suicides calls since the initial lock down March.

Your definition of considerate is different then mine.
So yes,I do disagree with your suggestion.



But we're but discussing lockdowns. We're talking about a time, right now, where bars and restaurants offer outdoor dining options and people are free to see their friends and loved ones. And this entire conversation arose from a discussion about whether a person who can't wear a mask should go into a store.

I'm truly not sure where suicide, alcoholism, and domestic abuse enter the equation.



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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 9:09:02 AM 
Agree /\/\/\.

there is no question alcoholism, spousal and child abuse, depression are up as we lock down. But there is no indication these conditions are due to having to wear masks when in public. Ratings for “Live with Kelly and Ryan” are up during the pandemic. I guess if i wanted to I could argue that is contributing to spousal abuse.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 9:19:07 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


But we're but discussing lockdowns. We're talking about a time, right now, where bars and restaurants offer outdoor dining options and people are free to see their friends and loved ones. And this entire conversation arose from a discussion about whether a person who can't wear a mask should go into a store.

I'm truly not sure where suicide, alcoholism, and domestic abuse enter the equation.





The impact on people's psyche started with the lock downs and has continued even when some Governors started reopening society.

I pointed out that the article I referenced said that,for some people,wearing a mask causes then to feel socially isolated.

You disagree.

There have also been a number of articles about how the social isolation,beginning with the total lock downs,and continuing today,has resulted in increases in alcohol and drug use,domestic abuse and suicide.

As I posted,the police departments in this area have seen exponential increases calls pertaining to alcohol or drug overdoses,domestic abuse and attempted,and in many cases successful suicides.
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allen
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 10:15:50 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
[QUOTE=Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame]

But we're but discussing lockdowns. We're talking about a time, right now, where bars and restaurants offer outdoor dining options and people are free to see their friends and loved ones. And this entire conversation arose from a discussion about whether a person who can't wear a mask should go into a store.

I'm truly not sure where suicide, alcoholism, and domestic abuse enter the equation.





The impact on people's psyche started with the lock downs and has continued even when some Governors started reopening society.

I pointed out that the article I referenced said that,for some people,wearing a mask causes then to feel socially isolated.

You disagree.

There have also been a number of articles about how the social isolation,beginning with the total lock downs,and continuing today,has resulted in increases in alcohol and drug use,domestic abuse and suicide.

As I posted,the police departments in this area have seen exponential increases calls pertaining to alcohol or drug overdoses,domestic abuse and attempted,and in many cases successful suicides.

We can’t afford to be lackey’s, we have to defeat this virus. Railing against mask and public health policy is being freedumb and hindering us from having freedom in the future.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes
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Kevin Finnegan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 10:17:57 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


But we're but discussing lockdowns. We're talking about a time, right now, where bars and restaurants offer outdoor dining options and people are free to see their friends and loved ones. And this entire conversation arose from a discussion about whether a person who can't wear a mask should go into a store.

I'm truly not sure where suicide, alcoholism, and domestic abuse enter the equation.





The impact on people's psyche started with the lock downs and has continued even when some Governors started reopening society.

I pointed out that the article I referenced said that,for some people,wearing a mask causes then to feel socially isolated.

You disagree.

There have also been a number of articles about how the social isolation,beginning with the total lock downs,and continuing today,has resulted in increases in alcohol and drug use,domestic abuse and suicide.

As I posted,the police departments in this area have seen exponential increases calls pertaining to alcohol or drug overdoses,domestic abuse and attempted,and in many cases successful suicides.



I think the problem is that we are allowing people to handle public safety issues by how 'they feel', not the science behind it. They 'feel' socially isolated when wearing a mask in public. However, the science shows that this keeps us safer health-wise.

The reverse is we are working to reopen schools. People 'feel' that this is putting them in jeopardy. However, the science shows nothing of the sort. Schools with safety measures in place have not shown any escalation in infections in other countries, such as Sweden. Those schools stayed open throughout and teachers had at or below the national average of infection. Public city bus drivers, however, had the among the highest level of infection.

Both sides are guilty of letting their feelings dictate decision-making. Let's instead be willing to look at the science to establish rules and regulations. Wear masks, open schools in non-hot spot locations. Choose science over feelings.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 10:38:57 AM 
Kevin Finnegan wrote:


I think the problem is that we are allowing people to handle public safety issues by how 'they feel', not the science behind it. They 'feel' socially isolated when wearing a mask in public. However, the science shows that this keeps us safer health-wise.

The reverse is we are working to reopen schools. People 'feel' that this is putting them in jeopardy. However, the science shows nothing of the sort. Schools with safety measures in place have not shown any escalation in infections in other countries, such as Sweden. Those schools stayed open throughout and teachers had at or below the national average of infection. Public city bus drivers, however, had the among the highest level of infection.

Both sides are guilty of letting their feelings dictate decision-making. Let's instead be willing to look at the science to establish rules and regulations. Wear masks, open schools in non-hot spot locations. Choose science over feelings.


I would have never thought that wearing a mask in public could make someone feel socially isolated.

But The Record article I referenced in my original post,which discusses all aspects of mask wearing, makes it clear it does happen.

They have found that,not only wearing a mask,but constantly seeing others wearing one, makes some people feel socially isolated.

Its a psychological condition.
No different then any other,including what some people consider irrational
phobias.

There also doesn't seem to be a universal reason why some people react this way.

The only thing the article didn't give is any idea as to the number of people
this affects.

I tried to research that.
But,so far, haven't been successful.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 10:55:37 AM 
allen wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


But we're but discussing lockdowns. We're talking about a time, right now, where bars and restaurants offer outdoor dining options and people are free to see their friends and loved ones. And this entire conversation arose from a discussion about whether a person who can't wear a mask should go into a store.

I'm truly not sure where suicide, alcoholism, and domestic abuse enter the equation.

The impact on people's psyche started with the lock downs and has continued even when some Governors started reopening society.

I pointed out that the article I referenced said that,for some people,wearing a mask causes then to feel socially isolated.

You disagree.

There have also been a number of articles about how the social isolation,beginning with the total lock downs,and continuing today,has resulted in increases in alcohol and drug use,domestic abuse and suicide.

As I posted,the police departments in this area have seen exponential increases calls pertaining to alcohol or drug overdoses,domestic abuse and attempted,and in many cases successful suicides.

We can’t afford to be lackeys, we have to defeat this virus. Railing against mask and public health policy is being freedumb and hindering us from having freedom in the future.

I agree, allen, but I would go much further. Masks do not cause people to feel socially isolated more than actual isolation. Masks are the answer to allowing people to have social interactions safely.

Which is more socially isolating? Staying at home, or going out to a public place wearing a mask? The only thing that slows this virus is some degree of restriction, and we should choose the least restrictive method that is effective. Right now, it appears that we can still control it, and have some degree of interaction if people wear masks.

The question is not "mask" or "no mask". The question is "mask" or "shut down".

rpbobcat wrote:
I would have never thought that wearing a mask in public could make someone feel socially isolated.

But The Record article I referenced in my original post,which discusses all aspects of mask wearing, makes it clear it does happen.

They have found that,not only wearing a mask,but constantly seeing others wearing one, makes some people feel socially isolated. ...

I gather, then, that you come down in favor of going back to a complete shutdown?

Last Edited: 7/31/2020 10:58:06 AM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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allen
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 12:25:23 PM 
Kevin Finnegan wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


But we're but discussing lockdowns. We're talking about a time, right now, where bars and restaurants offer outdoor dining options and people are free to see their friends and loved ones. And this entire conversation arose from a discussion about whether a person who can't wear a mask should go into a store.

I'm truly not sure where suicide, alcoholism, and domestic abuse enter the equation.





The impact on people's psyche started with the lock downs and has continued even when some Governors started reopening society.

I pointed out that the article I referenced said that,for some people,wearing a mask causes then to feel socially isolated.

You disagree.

There have also been a number of articles about how the social isolation,beginning with the total lock downs,and continuing today,has resulted in increases in alcohol and drug use,domestic abuse and suicide.

As I posted,the police departments in this area have seen exponential increases calls pertaining to alcohol or drug overdoses,domestic abuse and attempted,and in many cases successful suicides.



I think the problem is that we are allowing people to handle public safety issues by how 'they feel', not the science behind it. They 'feel' socially isolated when wearing a mask in public. However, the science shows that this keeps us safer health-wise.

The reverse is we are working to reopen schools. People 'feel' that this is putting them in jeopardy. However, the science shows nothing of the sort. Schools with safety measures in place have not shown any escalation in infections in other countries, such as Sweden. Those schools stayed open throughout and teachers had at or below the national average of infection. Public city bus drivers, however, had the among the highest level of infection.

Both sides are guilty of letting their feelings dictate decision-making. Let's instead be willing to look at the science to establish rules and regulations. Wear masks, open schools in non-hot spot locations. Choose science over feelings.


Sweden doesn’t have the amount of infection the we have, we are up to 1% of active cases in certain places and children over 10 spread the virus normally. At this point, we cannot compare ourselves to any country, I bet some kids won’t wear a mask because of their parents. We need to let the experts direct public policy versus going off of people’s hunches.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 1:00:41 PM 
allen wrote:
I bet some kids won’t wear a mask because of their parents. We need to let the experts direct public policy versus going off of people’s hunches.


According to the comments from our Governor,the biggest violators of the mask policy are "young adults" who don't give a (insert 4 letter word).

It would be a lot easier to let "experts" direct public policy if they were
even semi consistent.

Early on,Dr.Fauci said it was o.k. for young,healthy people to take cruises.

Then there was the whole no mask,yes mask ,back and forth.

There was also the battle of experts over what treatment works.

Then, yesterday, Dr. Fauci came out with his "we should wear googles"
recommendation.

I understand covid 19 was new,and a moving target.
But constantly changing and/or conflicting opinions,by different,and in many cases,the same "experts" makes people wonder, just how reliable these "experts" are.


Last Edited: 7/31/2020 1:02:39 PM by rpbobcat
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 1:15:13 PM 
L.C. wrote:

I gather, then, that you come down in favor of going back to a complete shutdown?


Our Governor told us that the purpose of the lock down was to "flatten the curve",
so hospitals wouldn't be overwhelmed.

He eventually confirmed that,as any of us who suffered through Calculus know,
the area under the curve (infections/deaths)doesn't change.

All that happens is the peak is lowered, and the duration extended.

Despite some spikes,NJ's covid hospitalizations are dropping like a rock.
Several hospitals in this area have zero covid patients.
Others single digits.

Covid deaths are now mostly "not previously reported" or "probable".

So,unless there is a verifyable concern that hospitals could be overwhelmed,there is no need to even consider another lock down.
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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 2:04:11 PM 
Everything is ok - we have alien blood on the way!!! Just waiting for the lizard people running the government to give the final approval.

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OUs LONG Driver
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 2:31:39 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
L.C. wrote:

I gather, then, that you come down in favor of going back to a complete shutdown?


Our Governor told us that the purpose of the lock down was to "flatten the curve",
so hospitals wouldn't be overwhelmed.

He eventually confirmed that,as any of us who suffered through Calculus know,
the area under the curve (infections/deaths)doesn't change.

All that happens is the peak is lowered, and the duration extended.

Despite some spikes,NJ's covid hospitalizations are dropping like a rock.
Several hospitals in this area have zero covid patients.
Others single digits.

Covid deaths are now mostly "not previously reported" or "probable".

So,unless there is a verifyable concern that hospitals could be overwhelmed,there is no need to even consider another lock down.


I have no idea what your actual stance is. Everything is about NJ, which i understand is your home state but you can't ignore what's going on elsehwere.

You seem to argue against any method of controlling the virus, maybe not directly but by trying to poke holes in why actions to date haven't been perfect. There is no perfect solution here which should be obvious. Well at least not in the US, just most other places in the world who have much better control over the situation. That means there are drawbacks that must be dealt with. I'm in agreement that there are psychological impacts to this mess and there is a higher rate of various abuses happening during lockdowns. That's terrible but have any of those things killed 150k more people than normal in the last 4 months? I'm not saying those items aren't important but I am saying they are not as important as controlling the spread. On the psychological front I'd bet there are at least as many suicides over the fear of the virus/depression of a loved one sick or lost (lots of doctor/nurse stories out there), or having to send kids to school/home school, than there are about wearing a mask. I'm sorry but if someone can't wear a mask it's incredibly selfish for them to be in a public space, especially an indoor one, without one. It's also incredibly dangerous for THAT person. That person who can't wear a mask is high risk and more likely to die or have worse complications. Stay home or stick to outdoor spaces.

Should we not update guidance as better information becomes available (i.e. masks, medications, etc.)? That early indecisiveness on masks is irrelevant now. It's well known a properly worn mask helps as L.C. has mentioned.

I'm glad to hear things are improving so dramatically in NJ. A good way to reverse that is to just open everything up with no restrictions. There are 49 other states out there man and there's no border wall around NJ. As we've seen the curve can go up quick.

You obviously don't like your Democratic governor and his requirements but hospitalizations are dropping like a rock...hmmmm I wonder if the restrictions he put in place had an impact on that.
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stout76
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  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 2:42:15 PM 
Lande71 wrote:
Anyone else find it interesting or disturbing that several doctors collectively on Tuesday claim they have successfully treated the virus with hydroxyclorquine (spl?), zinc, and the antibiotic Zithromax only to have Ohio’s board of pharmacy to ban hydroxycloroquine the very next day? They claim their treatment causes patients to be remarkably better in a couple days with no deaths as a result. Their credentials included places like UCLA, Harvard, and a host of other medical entities.



It was interesting to see the Ohio Board of Pharmacy back off the ban of HQ from pressure from DeWine.

I've been in healthcare administration for some time. From my experience, physicians I work with have been quietly taking HQ since the inception of the virus. They are front line providers and they take it as a prophylactic with 100% efficacy. A case can be made to administer HQ to patients depending on their specific condition and medical history. The physicians' actions are their testimony and it's unfortunate that this issue has been politicized. You'd think that human life is of utmost importance. Physicians take the hippocratic oath, politicians don't.
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L.C.
General User

Member Since: 8/31/2005
Location: United States
Post Count: 10,071

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 4:01:14 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
...
He eventually confirmed that,as any of us who suffered through Calculus know,
the area under the curve (infections/deaths)doesn't change.

All that happens is the peak is lowered, and the duration extended.
...

At this point, I would disagree with that. First, some areas of the world appear to have controlled it sufficiently that their area under the curve will not be large at all. Second, since reinfection after 3-6 months seems possible, states with a high early surge, such as New Jersey, may see a repeat surge, quite possible hitting many of the same people again. The net result is that by no means is the area under the curve any sort of constant. Many things can change it, both temporarily and permanently.

rpbobcat wrote:
...
So,unless there is a verifyable concern that hospitals could be overwhelmed,there is no need to even consider another lock down.

So, if deaths continue to rise, we should just say "let 'er rip"? Especially considering the risk of reinfection, I would strongly disagree. I believe that we should continue to try to limit the spread. I also believe that masks are the key to keeping the economy functioning and enabling human interaction, while keeping the spread reduced.

I admit that local policy should take consideration of local situation, and it does make a difference if you are in a state where there is a second wave trying to start, or if you are in a state where the cases seem to be under control at the moment (speaking of which, it appears that NJ just had it's worst week in terms of cases since June). Still, I do favor masks, and I think they are the key to enabling human interaction. While I have never favored a hard shutdown, if we can't wear masks, I support continued economic restrictions rather than just letting people die. In the absence of masks, I think gyms, restaurants, hair salons, and many other businesses need to stay closed.

Last Edited: 7/31/2020 4:11:49 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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allen
General User

Member Since: 1/24/2006
Post Count: 4,630

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 4:14:44 PM 
stout76 wrote:
Lande71 wrote:
Anyone else find it interesting or disturbing that several doctors collectively on Tuesday claim they have successfully treated the virus with hydroxyclorquine (spl?), zinc, and the antibiotic Zithromax only to have Ohio’s board of pharmacy to ban hydroxycloroquine the very next day? They claim their treatment causes patients to be remarkably better in a couple days with no deaths as a result. Their credentials included places like UCLA, Harvard, and a host of other medical entities.



It was interesting to see the Ohio Board of Pharmacy back off the ban of HQ from pressure from DeWine.

I've been in healthcare administration for some time. From my experience, physicians I work with have been quietly taking HQ since the inception of the virus. They are front line providers and they take it as a prophylactic with 100% efficacy. A case can be made to administer HQ to patients depending on their specific condition and medical history. The physicians' actions are their testimony and it's unfortunate that this issue has been politicized. You'd think that human life is of utmost importance. Physicians take the hippocratic oath, politicians don't.


Yeah, we believe you. As a healthcare administrator, HIPPA does not apply, all of the physicians tell you that they have taken it, you even took it and sent a copy of your prescription as proof. You didn’t just watch a Sinclair broadcast, you are no partisan, you just want to bring us the facts and we thank you for that. Stella, oh Stella, are you there? Stella is a pediatrician that works out of a shopping center and she cured 350 people who brought 350 kids to the shopping center to get a drug that is not prescibed to children. I hope that hydroxychloriquine or some other therapeutic is found to be effective, but we have to stop lying. People are dying, no more RP bobcat having emergency management meetings in his backyard where Phil Murphy said he was declaring an emergency to get money, the virus is no big deal. Then his wife has asthma and can’t wear a mask, or New Jersey is not opening up fast enough when cases in his state are going up again, now we have the inside healthcare administrator that all of the physicians report their prescription use to, all the while holding back on American people even though the government has millions of doses. Stop lying, please.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes
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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,508

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 4:18:47 PM 
OUs LONG Driver wrote:


I have no idea what your actual stance is. Everything is about NJ, which i understand is your home state but you can't ignore what's going on elsehwere.

You seem to argue against any method of controlling the virus, maybe not directly but by trying to poke holes in why actions to date haven't been perfect. There is no perfect solution here which should be obvious. Well at least not in the US, just most other places in the world who have much better control over the situation. That means there are drawbacks that must be dealt with. I'm in agreement that there are psychological impacts to this mess and there is a higher rate of various abuses happening during lockdowns. That's terrible but have any of those things killed 150k more people than normal in the last 4 months? I'm not saying those items aren't important but I am saying they are not as important as controlling the spread. On the psychological front I'd bet there are at least as many suicides over the fear of the virus/depression of a loved one sick or lost (lots of doctor/nurse stories out there), or having to send kids to school/home school, than there are about wearing a mask. I'm sorry but if someone can't wear a mask it's incredibly selfish for them to be in a public space, especially an indoor one, without one. It's also incredibly dangerous for THAT person. That person who can't wear a mask is high risk and more likely to die or have worse complications. Stay home or stick to outdoor spaces.

Should we not update guidance as better information becomes available (i.e. masks, medications, etc.)? That early indecisiveness on masks is irrelevant now. It's well known a properly worn mask helps as L.C. has mentioned.

I'm glad to hear things are improving so dramatically in NJ. A good way to reverse that is to just open everything up with no restrictions. There are 49 other states out there man and there's no border wall around NJ. As we've seen the curve can go up quick.

You obviously don't like your Democratic governor and his requirements but hospitalizations are dropping like a rock...hmmmm I wonder if the restrictions he put in place had an impact on that.


I have direct knowledge of what's going on in N.J., because I work with O.E.M
and have a wife and niece who are front line nurses.

I have no first hand knowledge of any other state,so I have no idea if what's being reported,good or bad,is accurate.

This is one of the reasons I posted a series of questions asking about the situation in Ohio.

I'm not against methods of controlling the virus.

As I said,I wear a mask, where I'm required to.

I also socially distance, where I'm supposed to.

I'm just saying the methods experts recommend to control the virus keep changing or conflict with each other.

Perfect example:
The CDC uses 6' for social distancing.
The WHO uses 1 meter.
Germany and Austria use 1.5 meters.

It is the same virus right ?

Governor Murphy's political party has nothing to do with how I feel about him.
I've posted here several times that I wasn't a fan of Christie during his second term either.

As far as Governor Murphy,I suggest you read the article that's on northjersey.com about his decision making on covid matters.

According to the article, he decides what he's going to do,without any input from anybody,then asks he staff for "talking points" to justify what he already decided to do.

He won't even release the names of the people on his covid task force.

In fact,he's gotten so bad,N.J.'s Democratic legislature is passing legislation to force him to release what are supposed to be public records,like the names of the people on the task force.

Here's an example of how he does things:

Saturday afternoon,June 27,the state issues rules for indoor dining,starting on July 2.

That night he and his wife get caught violating his executive order on indoor dining.
Monday afternoon,June 29, he pulls the plug on indoor dining "indefinitely".

Why,other then obvious ?

He said states that allowed it,had spikes.

Funny,NY State and Conn. allowed it.
No spikes.

Same thing he claimed "being sedentary in A/C for a period of time
contributed to the spread of covid."

Then,he still allowed to casinos to open.

We still don't have indoor dining.
Even though there haven't been any spikes from casinos or in NY State and Conn.

Of course, he changed his executive order on what is defined as indoor dining ,so what he and his wife did,was no longer a violation.

He also violated his own executive order on outdoor gatherings to participate in a BLM march.

No problem,the next week he changed the his executive order.

As far as restrictions being lifted.
The legislature is looking into legislation to let them over ride an executive order after a set period of time.

Apparently,even people in his own party don't agree with his pace for reopening.
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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,508

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 4:29:37 PM 
allen wrote:
People are dying, no more RP bobcat having emergency management meetings in his backyard where Phil Murphy said he was declaring an emergency to get money, the virus is no big deal. Then his wife has asthma and can’t wear a mask, or New Jersey is not opening up fast enough when cases in his state are going up again, now we have the inside healthcare administrator that all of the physicians report their prescription use to, all the while holding back on American people even though the government has millions of doses. Stop lying, please.


Allen,I don't appreciate the sarcasm.

If you don't want to consider that different people can have different opinions on covid fine.

I'll just leave the discussion here.

You do owe my wife an apology.

I didn't say she can't wear a mask.

I said that, because of her Asthma,she can only wear a mask for a limited time.And that her tolerance decreases throughout the day.

She does what she has to do,especially when she has to double mask to
treat covid patients.
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OUs LONG Driver
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Copley, OH
Post Count: 654

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 4:38:33 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
OUs LONG Driver wrote:


I have no idea what your actual stance is. Everything is about NJ, which i understand is your home state but you can't ignore what's going on elsehwere.

You seem to argue against any method of controlling the virus, maybe not directly but by trying to poke holes in why actions to date haven't been perfect. There is no perfect solution here which should be obvious. Well at least not in the US, just most other places in the world who have much better control over the situation. That means there are drawbacks that must be dealt with. I'm in agreement that there are psychological impacts to this mess and there is a higher rate of various abuses happening during lockdowns. That's terrible but have any of those things killed 150k more people than normal in the last 4 months? I'm not saying those items aren't important but I am saying they are not as important as controlling the spread. On the psychological front I'd bet there are at least as many suicides over the fear of the virus/depression of a loved one sick or lost (lots of doctor/nurse stories out there), or having to send kids to school/home school, than there are about wearing a mask. I'm sorry but if someone can't wear a mask it's incredibly selfish for them to be in a public space, especially an indoor one, without one. It's also incredibly dangerous for THAT person. That person who can't wear a mask is high risk and more likely to die or have worse complications. Stay home or stick to outdoor spaces.

Should we not update guidance as better information becomes available (i.e. masks, medications, etc.)? That early indecisiveness on masks is irrelevant now. It's well known a properly worn mask helps as L.C. has mentioned.

I'm glad to hear things are improving so dramatically in NJ. A good way to reverse that is to just open everything up with no restrictions. There are 49 other states out there man and there's no border wall around NJ. As we've seen the curve can go up quick.

You obviously don't like your Democratic governor and his requirements but hospitalizations are dropping like a rock...hmmmm I wonder if the restrictions he put in place had an impact on that.


I have direct knowledge of what's going on in N.J., because I work with O.E.M
and have a wife and niece who are front line nurses.

I have no first hand knowledge of any other state,so I have no idea if what's being reported,good or bad,is accurate.

This is one of the reasons I posted a series of questions asking about the situation in Ohio.

I'm not against methods of controlling the virus.

As I said,I wear a mask, where I'm required to.

I also socially distance, where I'm supposed to.

I'm just saying the methods experts recommend to control the virus keep changing or conflict with each other.

Perfect example:
The CDC uses 6' for social distancing.
The WHO uses 1 meter.
Germany and Austria use 1.5 meters.

It is the same virus right ?

Governor Murphy's political party has nothing to do with how I feel about him.
I've posted here several times that I wasn't a fan of Christie during his second term either.

As far as Governor Murphy,I suggest you read the article that's on northjersey.com about his decision making on covid matters.

According to the article, he decides what he's going to do,without any input from anybody,then asks he staff for "talking points" to justify what he already decided to do.

He won't even release the names of the people on his covid task force.

In fact,he's gotten so bad,N.J.'s Democratic legislature is passing legislation to force him to release what are supposed to be public records,like the names of the people on the task force.

Here's an example of how he does things:

Saturday afternoon,June 27,the state issues rules for indoor dining,starting on July 2.

That night he and his wife get caught violating his executive order on indoor dining.
Monday afternoon,June 29, he pulls the plug on indoor dining "indefinitely".

Why,other then obvious ?

He said states that allowed it,had spikes.

Funny,NY State and Conn. allowed it.
No spikes.

Same thing he claimed "being sedentary in A/C for a period of time
contributed to the spread of covid."

Then,he still allowed to casinos to open.

We still don't have indoor dining.
Even though there haven't been any spikes from casinos or in NY State and Conn.

Of course, he changed his executive order on what is defined as indoor dining ,so what he and his wife did,was no longer a violation.

He also violated his own executive order on outdoor gatherings to participate in a BLM march.

No problem,the next week he changed the his executive order.

As far as restrictions being lifted.
The legislature is looking into legislation to let them over ride an executive order after a set period of time.

Apparently,even people in his own party don't agree with his pace for reopening.




It's a jerk move to implement restrictions and then not follow them. 100% agree that's plain stupid. I still am not sure what you are in favor of doing though.

Are you most concerned with your ability to live a normal life ASAP without these nuisances or the general safety of the public? You seem very eager to reopen high risk business or indoor dining for some reason. Have you heard about the states that did that?
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allen
General User

Member Since: 1/24/2006
Post Count: 4,630

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 4:46:05 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
OUs LONG Driver wrote:


I have no idea what your actual stance is. Everything is about NJ, which i understand is your home state but you can't ignore what's going on elsehwere.

You seem to argue against any method of controlling the virus, maybe not directly but by trying to poke holes in why actions to date haven't been perfect. There is no perfect solution here which should be obvious. Well at least not in the US, just most other places in the world who have much better control over the situation. That means there are drawbacks that must be dealt with. I'm in agreement that there are psychological impacts to this mess and there is a higher rate of various abuses happening during lockdowns. That's terrible but have any of those things killed 150k more people than normal in the last 4 months? I'm not saying those items aren't important but I am saying they are not as important as controlling the spread. On the psychological front I'd bet there are at least as many suicides over the fear of the virus/depression of a loved one sick or lost (lots of doctor/nurse stories out there), or having to send kids to school/home school, than there are about wearing a mask. I'm sorry but if someone can't wear a mask it's incredibly selfish for them to be in a public space, especially an indoor one, without one. It's also incredibly dangerous for THAT person. That person who can't wear a mask is high risk and more likely to die or have worse complications. Stay home or stick to outdoor spaces.

Should we not update guidance as better information becomes available (i.e. masks, medications, etc.)? That early indecisiveness on masks is irrelevant now. It's well known a properly worn mask helps as L.C. has mentioned.

I'm glad to hear things are improving so dramatically in NJ. A good way to reverse that is to just open everything up with no restrictions. There are 49 other states out there man and there's no border wall around NJ. As we've seen the curve can go up quick.

You obviously don't like your Democratic governor and his requirements but hospitalizations are dropping like a rock...hmmmm I wonder if the restrictions he put in place had an impact on that.


I have direct knowledge of what's going on in N.J., because I work with O.E.M
and have a wife and niece who are front line nurses.

I have no first hand knowledge of any other state,so I have no idea if what's being reported,good or bad,is accurate.

This is one of the reasons I posted a series of questions asking about the situation in Ohio.

I'm not against methods of controlling the virus.

As I said,I wear a mask, where I'm required to.

I also socially distance, where I'm supposed to.

I'm just saying the methods experts recommend to control the virus keep changing or conflict with each other.

Perfect example:
The CDC uses 6' for social distancing.
The WHO uses 1 meter.
Germany and Austria use 1.5 meters.

It is the same virus right ?

Governor Murphy's political party has nothing to do with how I feel about him.
I've posted here several times that I wasn't a fan of Christie during his second term either.

As far as Governor Murphy,I suggest you read the article that's on northjersey.com about his decision making on covid matters.

According to the article, he decides what he's going to do,without any input from anybody,then asks he staff for "talking points" to justify what he already decided to do.

He won't even release the names of the people on his covid task force.

In fact,he's gotten so bad,N.J.'s Democratic legislature is passing legislation to force him to release what are supposed to be public records,like the names of the people on the task force.

Here's an example of how he does things:

Saturday afternoon,June 27,the state issues rules for indoor dining,starting on July 2.

That night he and his wife get caught violating his executive order on indoor dining.
Monday afternoon,June 29, he pulls the plug on indoor dining "indefinitely".

Why,other then obvious ?

He said states that allowed it,had spikes.

Funny,NY State and Conn. allowed it.
No spikes.

Same thing he claimed "being sedentary in A/C for a period of time
contributed to the spread of covid."

Then,he still allowed to casinos to open.

We still don't have indoor dining.
Even though there haven't been any spikes from casinos or in NY State and Conn.

Of course, he changed his executive order on what is defined as indoor dining ,so what he and his wife did,was no longer a violation.

He also violated his own executive order on outdoor gatherings to participate in a BLM march.

No problem,the next week he changed the his executive order.

As far as restrictions being lifted.
The legislature is looking into legislation to let them over ride an executive order after a set period of time.

Apparently,even people in his own party don't agree with his pace for reopening.








You know that I have a masters in emergency management and I know people that work in emergency management in New Jersey, we have done exercises and tabletops together. Lol, the claim that you initially made about Murphy declaring an emergency just to get some money was so false to me and 180,000 cases later, your stories continue to evolve and sound just like what we hear in the press from tremendously credible sources like breitbart or Sinclair. I believe your governor is doing the best that he can, it’s ok to disagree with him and question his decisions, that is our civic, but when you tell stories and spread propaganda, you Put you and others in jeopardy of catching the virus. http://apple.news/AATzX6-aqSyu42tfDdDnVOA

Last Edited: 8/1/2020 11:57:18 AM by allen

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes
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allen
General User

Member Since: 1/24/2006
Post Count: 4,630

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 7/31/2020 4:53:32 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
allen wrote:
People are dying, no more RP bobcat having emergency management meetings in his backyard where Phil Murphy said he was declaring an emergency to get money, the virus is no big deal. Then his wife has asthma and can’t wear a mask, or New Jersey is not opening up fast enough when cases in his state are going up again, now we have the inside healthcare administrator that all of the physicians report their prescription use to, all the while holding back on American people even though the government has millions of doses. Stop lying, please.


Allen,I don't appreciate the sarcasm.

If you don't want to consider that different people can have different opinions on covid fine.

I'll just leave the discussion here.

You do owe my wife an apology.

I didn't say she can't wear a masks.

I said that, because of her Asthma,she can only wear a mask for a limited time.And that her tolerance decreases throughout the day.

She does what she has to do,especially when she has to double mask to
treat covid patients.







I apologize to your wife if what you said about her profession and medical conditions are true, I have exercise induced asthma and I wear a mask and face shield. My asthma is not that bad I guess.

Last Edited: 8/1/2020 11:49:56 AM by allen

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes
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L.C.
General User

Member Since: 8/31/2005
Location: United States
Post Count: 10,071

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Another problem of Covid?
   Posted: 8/1/2020 12:15:39 PM 
An article about the long term effects, which sometimes can hit even people with mild cases. For those with a long stay in the ICU, the situation can be much worse:
vox wrote:
...A stay in the ICU not uncommonly leads to delirium, a serious mental disorder sometimes resulting in confused thinking, hallucinations, and reduced awareness of surroundings. But Covid-19 has created a “delirium factory,” says Santhosh at UCSF. This is because the illness has meant long hospital stays, interactions only with staff in full PPE, and the absence of family or other visitors.

Theodore Iwashyna, an ICU physician-scientist at the University of Michigan and VA Ann Arbor, is involved with the CAIRO Network, a group of 40 post-intensive care clinics on four continents. In general, after patients are discharged from ICUs, he says, “about half of people have some substantial new disability, and half will never get back to work. Maybe a third of people will have some degree of cognitive impairment. And a third have emotional problems.” ...


One of the big problems has been that people are often told that they are recovered, and the ongoing difficulties are all in their heads.

This is another area where medicine has a lot further to go. They need to understand what is causing the various ongoing symptoms, and then design therapeutics to help the patient improve.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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