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Topic: RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Topic: RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

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allen
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 6:17:34 AM

GraffZ06 wrote:

If we're going to start paying them to play as STUDENTS in college all because they help the university earn $ through marketing....then why stop there?

Might as well start paying them (albeit less) as STUDENTS in high school too. I mean some of these schools make some big $ on sold out home games, no? What about shoe/apparel deals for high schools? Let's get Spectrum and other regional TV's to start pitching in packages for their HS games of the week and carry that over to the players too.

I mean - for some of the phenoms like LeBron, might as well start paying them in middle school. After all we don't want to "exploit" them.

You think helicopter parents, relatives, boosters, agents, handlers etc are bad NOW? Wait until you start associating real $ payouts to these STUDENTS. What happens when the varsity HS team gets paid but not the JV....and Johnny doesn't make the varsity, but his parents think he should have? Now we're not talking about hurt pride/egos, we're talking about families losing $.

Oh yeah, that will all end swimingly.

There is a difference, you are forcing young adults to play at the amateur level when they are legally grown. Also you cannot ignore the fact that kids get paid to play in Europe. If you want to keep your competitive advantage than you need to adapt before the pendulum changes. The NCAA makes billions because they have a very marketable product. The product won�t be so marketable if another group is able to lure away the best athletes.

Last Edited: 2/24/2018 6:18:53 AM by allen

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 8:14:16 AM

I don't doubt that the vast majority of NCAA athletes are more than satisfied to have their education, or a portion of it, paid for.

But there's another class of athlete that is clearly a professional and forcing them through the charade of amateurism is causing a lot of problems.

Question: would anybody here have any issue with professional teams having the ability to own a player's rights before they're eligible to play professionally?

Let's say, for instance, that the NFL and NBA were able to draft amateurs and hold their rights for three years. The Colts or whoever could draft Leonard Fornette, negotiate a salary for his years at LSU and help him procure insurance policies, etc. Hell, he could even train at the Colts facilities in the off-season. And then when he's ready, he can leave LSU and start his rookie clock.

Isn't that an easy solution?

Or, why not just remove restrictions on athletes being able to make money from endorsements? If Jimmer Fredette wants to do a Domino's commercial, how does that impact BYU basketball?

Last Edited: 2/24/2018 9:54:13 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 8:19:32 AM

Also worth pointing out the obvious: this only happens in sports where the professional league has implemented an age minimum.

This isn't a problem in baseball where players regularly turn down million dollar bonuses to play in college instead.

Kevin Finnegan
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 8:55:24 AM

I think of a crime as something that harms someone or something. I can�t seem to figure out who is harmed in this situation.

bornacatfan
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 9:37:12 AM

People see "the top 100" and assume they represent "athletes". They do not. Most of the kids participating in the NCAA are not going to make their life's work playing sports. To say that MOST athletes deserve or want money is just being out of touch with the bigger picture and really not being very conversant with many athletes. Like Greenberg offering up a Kentucky player as an example....that completely ignores every swimmer, X country runner, wrestler,volleyball player or womens's sports in general and even includes MOST of the 351 D1 school's basketball players to argue for the top 5 starters for the top half of the Power Conference players getting paid.

Just MHO.

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

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allen
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 9:50:41 AM

The top 100 is what gets the billion a year cable contract and billion dollar merchandising contracts. While we know that only a few will go pro, we watch to see who the future superstars will be. The NCAA has a fiduciary responsibility to protect their revenue streams. They need to find a better equitable solution before it collapses.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

Deciduous Forest Cat
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 9:59:16 AM

bornacatfan wrote:

Exactly. The one and done blue chip at Kentucky is the exception. And those kids should just go to the pros

bornacatfan
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 10:07:52 AM

Point being the definition of equitable.

RIght not it is not being led by the majority of athletes who are getting what they want...an education and a chance to play.

There is not an exodus to Europe by dozens of players. There is not a bunch saying "i have my 4 years paid but I want my face licensed". In fact the guys like Lonzo (now there is a good one to have thrown out as an example) who want to be paid have ZERO chance of getting a degree and could care less about even taking a class.

The term equitable is not coming from the broad swatch of athletes that make up the Divisions of the NCAA. It is being bandied about by sportscasters, fans looking in and a myriad of folks sowing seeds of discontent in athletes who love playing the game and never thought of getting paid.

colobobcat66
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 10:22:17 AM

allen wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

Borna, I very much appreciate your perspective. I totally agree that paying players is not the answer. I suspect that many of the advocates of this approach really have no concept of the problems that would follow. Would this make the atlhletes employees of the university? Would they be eligible for workman's comp if injured? Would running professional sports teams jeopardize a university�s non-profit status? Would universities have to spinoff their revenue sports athletic teams to some kind of affiliated for-profit corporation? Would athletic teams be eligible for collective bargaining? Would schools just spinoff men�s revenue sports, leaving non-revenue men�s sports and virtually all women�s sports still under the university�s direct control? Would this mean the end of many women�s sports because basketball and football would no longer count as official university sports? Lots of questions and many possible bad outcomes possible.

Change always brings uncertainty, but sometimes it is necessary. I like the NCAA�s Current policy, but they need to increase the stipend. Maybe do a partial revenue sharing. Too many kids lay it all on the line and risk getting CTE for a ship, most coaches believe that players should get paid, and these are the real people in the know. The kids are adults and they should be able to make a living if they are good enough. The NCAA needs to get out in front of this if we want to keep our talent at home and if they want a bigger CBS contract at the next negotiation. Once the top 100 recruits star going overseas, you could see the next contract drop by 50%. Paying the players would hurt the parity, so they just need to increase the stipend that players currently receive. As debaters, we have to stop making generalizations based off emotion. I remember us talking about whether NCAA basketball players believied that they could go pro and a certain individual made assertions and the actual data opposed this persons opinion. You can�t be a subject matter expert if you don�t know the facts.

This is an interesting subject that doesn�t seem to be going away anytime soon.

Allen, could you provide some articles that support your most coaches support paying athletes statement. I�m not suggesting that�s it�s wrong, but I�m just wondering if that�s now the accepted concensus on the subject.

cbus cat fan
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 10:27:07 AM

Good grief, the Captain Renault's of the college basketball world ("I am shocked there is gambling going on--Casablanca film reference) are out in force. However, the most egregious proposition they have is to just allow it to continue. They seem to feel that since some people are cheating and the NCAA makes a lot of money why can't everyone get on the take. Kinda like the scene in the Godfather where Don Barzini complains to Don Corleone that he should share the judges he has in his back pocket, so that the other families can draw from the same well and wet their beaks a little too!

90+% of college athletes will never play a professional sport. With the cost of college these days, I am sure most college students especially at expensive private schools would love to have no debt when they graduate. However, every time we have one of these scandals emerge a group of folks come forward saying paying players-- that will solve the problem they say. Kinda like the folks that advocate for legalized prostitution, and then when it leads to human sex trafficking, they like Captain Renault are shocked!

I would strongly encourage these naive folks not to take telemarketers up on their once in a lifetime cruises, buy any bridges for sale--especially in Brooklyn. Finally for heaven's sake, never reply to e-mails supposedly from Aunt Fanny or sweet cousin Meldahide asking money be sent to a Nigerian bank account, because their safari tour has been held ransom by a bunch of elephant poachers.

The simple solution to this problem is to put the hammer down on these sleazy coaches, agents, shoe company reps etc. If we don't, we can kiss college sports goodbye as we know it. I love the traditions of March Madness and the college football bowl season, it will all be gone if these sleazy agents, coaches, shoe company reps etc aren't given time in the Big House to help them see the error of their ways!

Last Edited: 2/24/2018 10:29:21 AM by cbus cat fan

colobobcat66
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 10:29:32 AM

bornacatfan wrote:

The Lonzo reference is pretty funny. He said everybody is getting paid so it should be made official and then in the same breath says � but I wasn�t paid�. What a crock. Lots of wind in that family.

bornacatfan
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 10:30:21 AM

I put up another thread to discuss the philosophies as not to mix this one up to get it banned to Siberia.

As stories break it would be nice to have a place to follow the latest.

Discussing the fallout can head over to the other thread if you please. Thanks

allen
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 10:43:45 AM

colobobcat66 wrote:

bornacatfan wrote:

Lavar Balll could be the worst thing that happened to NCAA basketball. He took his sons to Lithuania and put them on a sorry team, the sixteen year old shoots 40 foot jump shots and they live stream all the games and the sorry team now sells out every gym that they play in. All of this because he couldn�t keep his son from stealing in China and accepting the consequences. If these young men succeed, they could start a trend.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

BillyTheCat
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 11:33:42 AM

bornacatfan wrote:

somebody hands me 10k it is not going anywhere that could be seen...

Things to remember about today. This is ONE agent. ONE. Know how many of these jokers there are around college basketball?

Coaches can, in no way, be expected to know what the parents/handlers are doing.

To the credit of our AD when new cars and things that raise eyebrows showed up with our athletes behind the Convo beside the "piece of shit white truck" he had the stones and smarts to pick up the phone and call to find out the story. Great job. If the kid is not taking the money, then you got to look at the parents.

There are hundreds of these jokers around summer ball courts from east to west.

The NCAA is a NON profit. It is a large organization. I do not think the salaries there are out of line with the top 10 salaries of many smaller organizations (Blue Cross, Nationwide and most health care insurers come to mind) and I suspect they are doing a lot more work than many of those CEOs and under a LOT more scrutiny. We talk about folks making money while the athletes do not get paid. Laughable. I have been around many athletes who are thankful for the degree and the free education. I have not been around more than a handful who have lamented NOT getting paid. THe folks bitching loudest about athletes not getting paid are folks who were never athletes. Mike and Mike used to go back and forth. Greenberg was the loudest proponent of paying athletes while Golic and his kids were thankful for what they had been given. Greenberg became the poster boy, to me,of the stereotypical NON athlete lamenting the Poor Poor athletes being taken advantage of....

The dominoes will fall and college sports will change. I have heard several coaches who adamantly said today. "We just want it cleaned up" and I hear in their voices that same lament I have heard from many coaches who feel like they have been forced to make a choice of running a clean program or get passed by. I hope Emmerich makes changes that insulate student athletes from folks that are looking to make money on them. Though I am a vocal critic of many things they do the NCAA is a pretty spectacular undertaking that provides a lot of good opportunities for far many more folks past the household names. I am now waiting for the academians who hate college sports with every fibre of their being to start with their opines.

+1 and yes, the number of slime ball agents in football and basketball games is staggering. In football only 15% of registered agents actually have clients in the NFL. Lots of shady ness.

D.A.
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 11:50:52 AM

Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

bornacatfan wrote:

Exactly. The one and done blue chip at Kentucky is the exception. And those kids should just go to the pros

Co-sign

The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

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OUPride
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 12:04:46 PM

GroverBall wrote:

bornacatfan wrote:

rpbobcat wrote:

Not directly related,but I just saw a news story that the NCAA denied Louisville's appeal to not have their 2013 Championship vacated.

ALl banners and allusions to 2013 MUST be removed. Got to say it does not break my heart in the least.

Pitino should have to get the championship tattoo removed from his shoulder blade.

with sandpaper.

allen
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 12:09:24 PM

OUPride wrote:

GroverBall wrote:

bornacatfan wrote:

rpbobcat wrote:

Not directly related,but I just saw a news story that the NCAA denied Louisville's appeal to not have their 2013 Championship vacated.

ALl banners and allusions to 2013 MUST be removed. Got to say it does not break my heart in the least.

Pitino should have to get the championship tattoo removed from his shoulder blade.

with sandpaper.

Lol

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

OhioCatFan
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/24/2018 3:05:59 PM

I have no problem with the kids who don't want to play by amateur rules in college taking off and going to Europe or anywhere else and getting paid on a professional team. Heck, I'm fine with the NBA signing kids right out of high school. I don't think that would effect the college TV contracts one bit. What might cause a drastic reduction in the contracts is if college basketball gets a reputation of being totally scandal ridden and sleazy. That could cause a lot of folks to stop watching, reduce viewership numbers, and thereby reduce the contract dollars.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

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Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

allen
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/25/2018 9:28:48 PM

Shots fired
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22579359/stan-van-gund...

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

cbus cat fan
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/25/2018 10:26:03 PM

The corrupt nature of the NCAA makes it an easy target for buffoons like Stan Van Gundy. Remember his feud with Shaq and Dwight Howard? Shaq called Stan Van Gundy the "Master of Panic." This is what corruption brings, clowns like Van Gundy come out of the woodwork. This is only the beginning.

Notice anything else? As big of a deal as this scandal is, it is not a main cable news story. It has been mentioned by all of the cable news channels, but not with the same sort of urgency as would have been the case 10 years ago. As has been discussed on this board, college basketball isn't the big deal it was 10 years ago. You could make the same statement for sports in general.

A political commentator recently made a confession on twitter. He tweeted that he once made passing references to sporting events because he thought that made him seem hip and topical, he said he wouldn't be doing this anymore because he really didn't follow sports that much and with dwindling sports ratings felt he wasn't so alone anymore. Society seems to have so many other noteworthy events to mull over, sporting events aren't drawing the crowds or the viewership that it once did. The scandals and buffoonery make me sad for what sports used to be like, not that it was perfect or saintly in any way, but at least at the college level, it represented something better than what we see today.

bornacatfan
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/25/2018 11:02:16 PM

I had put a response to Van Gundy but somehow lost the whole damn thing.

He is an enigma to me. I have never figure out how he got where he is and never thought much of his coaching. His wiki is baffling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Van_Gundy Now he is commenting on things acting like he does not know much about the history. I could not agree more with him about the one and done. Long said it was a sham and should be abolished but it is an NBA rule born of the Union protecting their players jobs and Stern making the product better by evaluating them on someone else's dime.

https://bizgovsoc2.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/from-prep-to-... /

Historically, Spencer Haywood led the way challenging the NBA with an antitrust lawsuit. Opening the door the NBA let "hardship" cases go early "to support their families". Most of the list of guys declaring, like Magic, were poor and black and used it to go to work to help the family.

The NBA Players Assn, like any good Union protecting their members, decided to enact the one and done....the NFL requires 3 years with no one having a cow. Not sure of the difference. The result as we all know is that the kids that are one and dones like Koufos did not even show up for class second semester. They don't want to be there, let em go. No worries.

If anything the NBA should provide basic requirements of rookies in accounting, contracts, personal finance and public speaking and the Ohio course it teaches in Biz school, professional presence to give these dudes usable knowledge. The NBA can afford to have rookie school. It will make their members better able to cope as they have that pile of cash come at their yet unformed brains and processes they skipped by not going to class in HS and forgoing college.

Van Gundy says the "one thing I know about the NCAA" shows how little he really knows about anything. 351 D1 schools being led by 60 or so in the Power 5 just looking to raid any up and coming overperformer from the mids. I think the grad transfer rule shows what happens when you let immediate eligibility go through. Bad choices, bad decisions and the haves strip the other 25 or so conferences of their talents leaving them as a feeder system.

allen
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/26/2018 2:58:14 AM

bornacatfan wrote:

Van Gundy actually coached a college team before. He may know a little bit more than you. The college basketball scene is a reflection of our country. You make it to the top through hard work. Mid majors have to work harder than Power 5 schools and they have to create brands and succeed like Gonzaga and Butler did. There are always bad apples, there are always scavengers and the FBI will help us find out who they are.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

bornacatfan
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/26/2018 7:16:50 AM

Coached a college team? asst at Vermont (a recruiting juggernaut) and then ASST at a couple more D1s in the 1980s. Head at a D2 in the late 80s. In the other thread you say this STARTED 30 years ago. He was at Wisky as an asst before this got rolling.

Never will you hear me say I am smarter than anyone. I always assume even a guy like you is better connected or has better insight than I. What you put up here reflects on you. It is either factual and well though out ...or not. Van Gundy is out of his element, uninformed and misguided, IMO, and his statements reflect that.

allen
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/26/2018 8:36:41 AM

bornacatfan wrote:

I can agree, he hasn't coached college basketball since the 90's, he could very well be out of touch. You also sound very humble and carry yourself well. I do believe that there was some validity to what he was saying.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

giacomo
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RE: New FBI *basketball* thread

Posted: 2/27/2018 3:44:47 PM

Many good points in this thread. I keep coming back to this: When I lived in Ann Arbor the university published the salaries of all U of Michigan employees. This was 1982 and Bo Schembechler made 100k. The university president made 105k and the basketball coach made something less, let's say 90k. At 3.5% inflation Bo's salary today is 345k. Guess what? Jim Harbaugh's salary is 9 MILLION and John Beilein is 2.84M!

You think the kids and their families don't know how much money is out there? That's why it's surprising to me that the top guy went to Arizona for only 100k. If the FBI goes back 10 years and charts where the top 3 to 5 guys went to school, more of this will be coming out.

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