BobcatAttack.com - For Fans of Ohio University Sports

Welcome Guest!
Create an Account

site search

where to watch

about us

advertise with us

help

BobcatAttack.com Message Board

Ohio Basketball

Topic: RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Topic: RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Author

Message

Recovering Journalist
General User

Member Since: 8/17/2010
Location: Cleveland, OH
Post Count: 1,839

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 10:54:54 AM

GoCats105 wrote:

Injuries are always going to be a problem no matter how talented the roster. Does the 2012 team make the Sweet 16 if TJ Hall or Ricardo Johnson are asked to make the plays that Walt Offutt or Nick Kellogg did? You can't have 13 All-MAC players on the roster, it just doesn't happen.

Please point out where I demanded 13 All-MAC players.

GoCats105
General User

Member Since: 1/31/2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Post Count: 6,922

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 10:54:56 AM

Recovering Journalist wrote:

bn9 wrote:

Recovering Journalist wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

To quote Aaron Rogers, some people need to "R-E-L-A......XXXXXXXXX." Seriously, back away from the ledge. No coach would be winning with what has happened to this roster in the past 7-8 months. That's not making excuses, it's looking at the situation and being realistic.

Counterpoint: Would a standout coach HAVE this roster? Look at the recruiting grid and tell me honestly you see 12 quality MAC-level players.

I like a good challenge:

Yes - Carter, Dartis, Kirk, Laster, Taylor, Mickle, Block, Butler

Have no idea because either no or limited sample - Gareri, VanderPlas

Maybe - Gollon (I think he could be a useful 9th or 10th man in the MAC)

Evidently not - Dozier

Remember, you said MAC level, not all-MAC or higher.

Great! Now we can be an average or below-average MAC team! Our dreams are coming true as soon as we're healthy.

Two guys on that list - Laster and Taylor - have significantly and notably improved in their tenure. Others, whether from injury or some other reason, have either slid backward or stayed relatively the same. I'm including Kirk in that group, who is a huge talent with massive potential but still hasn't adjusted his shot or game one iota. Maybe that's good enough for you, but it shouldn't be.

Kirk is shooting 75% from the free throw line and 37% from three. For a guy whose game is strictly getting to the basket and whose shot needs a lot of work, I'd say that's pretty good for now. Is it perfect, no. Can it get better, yes.

GoCats105
General User

Member Since: 1/31/2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Post Count: 6,922

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 10:58:45 AM

Recovering Journalist wrote:

GoCats105 wrote:

Please point out where I demanded 13 All-MAC players.

You didn't demand All-MAC players, but you did say injuries should have no effect on how the team plays. So if a team loses an All-MAC player then the next man up should just be able to slide right in, no issues to be wary of?

Recovering Journalist
General User

Member Since: 8/17/2010
Location: Cleveland, OH
Post Count: 1,839

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 10:59:26 AM

GoCats105 wrote:

Please pull up that quote.

OU_Country
General User

Member Since: 12/6/2005
Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County
Post Count: 8,320

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 11:00:13 AM

100%Cat wrote:

Agreed.

Recovering Journalist wrote:

You're working really hard to defend mediocrity. Saying that we're averaging out compared to the last 37 years is the very definition of low expectations. Those 37 years include fired coaches, transitions, the occasional down year.

We hired SP when he was coming off an NCAA win and one of the hottest commodities we could get. Like most here, I was thrilled with the hire. I was happy we committed the resources for someone so promising and up-and-coming. I don't recall the introductory press conference including stirring promises from Saul to be "about the same as the last 37 years in terms of winning percentage, minus any success in the MAC Tournament."

As disappointed as I am in the last four years (and I've been quiet until this month), the downward trend and lack of hope in terms of recruiting classes and existing firepower is what really has me making my "our program is worse than Miami" declarations, which as of today are indeed true. That's a bad place to be, and it's truly unacceptable given the salary and resources committed to get there.

Sir, I'm merely pointing out what the typical year is at Ohio statistically over the prior 37 1/2 seasons of basketball. If 20-10, and 11-7 in the MAC is mediocrity, I can't help you because statistically it is not. It may not be outstanding, but it is above average. If it's a "disappointment", relative to your expectations if we go 20-10 without the MAC's best player, and fall short of the MAC title game by one possession, that's a problem for you, not the program.

I'm not in disagreement about your thoughts on salary and investment relative to the ROI this year. I don't disagree with this year being a disappointment, and anything that led to it in terms of the reliance on Jaaron, and misses in recruiting that have led to a lacking post game, etc. The flip side, of course is that we're "making excuses" when we talk about Carter and BVP being non-existent because of injuries, when the reality is that the two of them plus Gareri, in whatever combination of minutes they would have played, were going to be heavily relied upon to produce at the forward positions.

For a comparison, what do we suppose UB looks like if you take away Perkins, Massinburg, Ikenna Smart, and Montell McRae? Probably not the elite team in the conference anymore, are they? Because that's what Ohio is facing without Simmons, Carter, Vanden Plas, and Gareri for all of, or most of the season to date. Some call it an excuse, I'll call it reality. The result is the same - important players being relied upon who aren't on the floor for whatever the reason causing a team to perform below expectations.

To say that we're as bad as what Miami has been for the last 6-7 seasons, over time, is simply false. The numbers show it, and everyone that watched the MAC over the last ten years knows it. They haven't had a winning conference record since 09-10. Ohio has done that all but one year since then, with this season to likely be the second. This one year, yes, it appears we're worse than them. Yes, moving forward, as of this moment, they look better. They're very likely to be better this year at the end than Ohio is. Unless someone has a crystal ball, predicting beyond this year into next year is pretty hard to do with 18-20 year olds and their abilities.

I'm sorry if you don't like my "defense of mediocrity" when presenting stats, reality, or facts that relate to what my expectations of this program are. Some on here seem to have expectations that will likely never be met, save that one year lightning in a bottle every 6-8 years, which by the way is outside the norm. Personally, I won't complain about 11-7 in the conference and getting to the semi-finals Friday night in Cleveland two years in a row, and I'll be thrilled with anything beyond that. At the end of the season, college hoops is my fun during the winter. Winning more than we lose is fun for me as a fan, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

Recovering Journalist
General User

Member Since: 8/17/2010
Location: Cleveland, OH
Post Count: 1,839

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 11:05:32 AM

OU_Country wrote:

I'm sorry if you don't like my "defense of mediocrity" when presenting stats, reality, or facts that relate to what my expectations of this program are. Some on here seem to have expectations that will likely never be met, save that one year lightning in a bottle every 6-8 years, which by the way is outside the norm. Personally, I won't complain about 11-7 in the conference and getting to the semi-finals Friday night in Cleveland two years in a row, and I'll be thrilled with anything beyond that. At the end of the season, college hoops is my fun during the winter. Winning more than we lose is fun for me as a fan, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

If you're happy in the middle of the pack, then you shouldn't be happy with this:

Division 1 Basketball Budgets
122) Ohio University-Main Campus 3,101,150
123) University of Akron Main Campus 3,088,920
162) Bowling Green State University-Main Campus 2,389,470
163) University of Toledo 2,340,047
166) Miami University-Oxford 2,329,719
179) Western Michigan University 2,183,818
184) Kent State University at Kent 2,152,644
191) University at Buffalo 2,054,470
194) Eastern Michigan University 2,031,759
200) Ball State University 1,905,730
204) Northern Illinois University 1,880,733
240) Central Michigan University 1,646,267

GoCats105
General User

Member Since: 1/31/2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Post Count: 6,922

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 11:11:20 AM

Recovering Journalist wrote:

GoCats105 wrote:

Please pull up that quote.

Read it wrong. My fault. You said "isn't."

OU_Country
General User

Member Since: 12/6/2005
Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County
Post Count: 8,320

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 11:38:16 AM

Recovering Journalist wrote:

Obviously this year isn't remotely middle of the pack.

Beyond that, I'm confused: In what way is 43-23, and 22-14 over the previous two years, and the average year of 19-12, and 11-7 (or 10-6) over the last 37 years, considered "middle of the pack"?

bn9
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 422

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 11:45:14 AM

Recovering Journalist wrote:

bn9 wrote:

Recovering Journalist wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Counterpoint: Would a standout coach HAVE this roster? Look at the recruiting grid and tell me honestly you see 12 quality MAC-level players.

Easy there dude, I never said that it was good enough. You simply asked which players were of a MAC level quality.

Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,024

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 12:17:56 PM

OU_Country wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Agreed.

Recovering Journalist wrote:

For a comparison, what do we suppose UB looks like if you take away Perkins, Massinburg, Ikenna Smart, and Montell McRae? Probably not the elite team in the conference anymore, are they? Because that's what Ohio is facing without Simmons, Carter, Vanden Plas, and Gareri for all of, or most of the season to date. Some call it an excuse, I'll call it reality. The result is the same - important players being relied upon who aren't on the floor for whatever the reason causing a team to perform below expectations.

Not sure how you can make that comparison when one of the players had proved ineffectual at best this year and we haven't seen the other at all.

SBH
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 3,754

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 12:25:22 PM

Ryan Taylor sure would look good on this team. Saul getting blindsided on that kid was a huge red flag.

Buckeye to Bobcat
General User

Member Since: 9/10/2013
Post Count: 1,776

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 1:04:11 PM

I have sat back and read all that I can take on the evaluations.

The frustration is coming out of Saul. That is apparent. The good news with that is he know what is expected of him and is aggravated by what has transpired so far this season. To be honest, I would rather see this than what Cooper did at Miami where he laid down and didn't give a hoot. Are his rah rah speeches starting to get old? Yes, but I would rather have that than being a prick to the media.

This staff has done good things so far. The kids we bring in are good kids, not like they have outstanding warrants against them or making the police blotter. Heck I remember getting asked about a kid that left the country because he had a warrant. Now I know we have had a little too much of a reliance on transfers and such, but when Christian left it wasn't exactly built on a steady foundation. If you guys recall, there was essentially a mutiny that was about to take place here and rumors that Mo was going to transfer. So again, where this program is when Saul came in to where it is now is day and night.

Again, recruiting wise we can be doing better. We have lost some kids that shouldn't have happened and have gotten some kids that shouldn't have happened.

I acknowledge as well, The injuries are at an absurd clip. Something has got to be fixed here and not sure what needs to happen in this department or else we won't have a team.

If someone wants to buy him out, then fork over the sum required to do so. I am adamant on that. But otherwise, to me this is eerily shaping up too much like the John Groce era at Illinois, where injuries doomed his P5 career. I hope I am wrong on this one, but the 2nd and 3rd years give you an idea that the man can coach, and I know some folks don't like how much our point guards drive the offense, but that to me is a guy who trusts our players and with his frustrations knows we can be better. Keep the faith, but as I have said before he has put himself between a rock and a hard place in terms of not winning in year 4 and getting an extension. I hope he gets one because I think there is potential still here, but we will see.

Recovering Journalist
General User

Member Since: 8/17/2010
Location: Cleveland, OH
Post Count: 1,839

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 1:29:57 PM

OU_Country wrote:

Recovering Journalist wrote:

I guess "agree to disagree" is right. You're OK with having the largest budget in the conference and being 11-7 on average. I'm not.

Recovering Journalist
General User

Member Since: 8/17/2010
Location: Cleveland, OH
Post Count: 1,839

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 1:34:10 PM

Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:

As someone who probably looks like he has a torch in one hand and a pitchfork in the other in this thread, I actually agree with most of this. Saul's a good human being, the team seems to be stocked with good kids and I very much want to see them succeed. I also recognize that Saul will be here next year no matter what. I just don't like any of the trends and I don't find the performance of the program to be at all commensurate with the expenditures.

BillyTheCat
General User

Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,486

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 1:43:48 PM

Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:

I couldn't agree more!

greencat
General User

Member Since: 3/12/2005
Post Count: 2,057

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 3:08:41 PM

bn9 wrote:

Recovering Journalist wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Counterpoint: Would a standout coach HAVE this roster? Look at the recruiting grid and tell me honestly you see 12 quality MAC-level players.

Taylor would be 3rd string on a high level mid-major.

If Gareri is the one who looks like Jesus, he should be playing juco ball to get his skill level up to mid-major sub off the bench level. If not, then NAIA for all 4 years.

Mickle? Looks like his high water mark at FGCU was 13 points against something called Ave Maria (?)**

**Upon further review, Ave Maria is a tiny Catholic school who is currently 3-17 in men's basketball and 1-8 in whatever league they play in vs other tiny church schools.

See, this is the thing. Saul needs to realize he is not in Bunfart, ND anymore. He is near the middle of the heavy populated midwest, near an airport that has non-stop flights to all those Dallas and Atlanta kind of mega-cities. He needs to stock the roster as if he can take advantage of that. Other than Kirk, he doesn't seem to be doing it.

Last Edited: 1/18/2018 3:15:29 PM by greencat

Cats5
General User

Member Since: 6/14/2017
Post Count: 949

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 3:34:16 PM

Honestly, all of us basketball fans were spoiled when John Groce was the coach. He had great players and his energy he brought to the team was amazing. When he left and we hired Jim. I wasn't very pleased. We kinda went away from what John was building. Don't get me wrong, Jim done a good job but he didn't quite bring the same energy. That's just my opinion. Now to Saul. I honestly don't think he has lost the team. If they have a bad year this year, you can't blame it on him because we have to look at who's playing on the court. He has 2 true freshman PG's who will be weapons. Laster's offense has finally came out and we can't say Gollon isn't gonna be what we expect because the dude just came off of 2 injuries. JC will be an asset when he's healthy. We'll be just fine. All the pieces will fall into place

Last Edited: 1/18/2018 3:38:16 PM by Cats5

ohiocatfan1
General User

Member Since: 9/6/2016
Post Count: 319

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 3:37:37 PM

I don't know if he's lost the team but I do know the quips are no longer funny (if they ever were) and the excuses are worn out. This is a "results are the bottom line" business.

GoCats105
General User

Member Since: 1/31/2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Post Count: 6,922

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 3:46:44 PM

greencat wrote:

bn9 wrote:

Recovering Journalist wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Counterpoint: Would a standout coach HAVE this roster? Look at the recruiting grid and tell me honestly you see 12 quality MAC-level players.

Mickle? Looks like his high water mark at FGCU was 13 points against something called Ave Maria (?)**

Who cares what he did at FGCU. He's playing a role here.

Clemson - 10 pts, 3 rebs
Maryland - 9 pts, 3 rebs
WKU - 17 pts, 4 rebs
Ball State - 10 pts, 6 rebs

He's definitely not the home run we all wanted in a transfer, but he's doing a great job. More than they expected out of him for sure.

GoCats105
General User

Member Since: 1/31/2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Post Count: 6,922

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 3:47:22 PM

Recovering Journalist wrote:

Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:

I think that's something we can all agree with. The trend definitely doesn't look good.

100%Cat
General User

Member Since: 1/17/2013
Post Count: 2,491

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 3:57:59 PM

I've said it before, I'll say it again: that Sweet 16 run was the best worst thing to happen to this program. It was a great ride...but it also brought with it unrealistic expectations from a large portion of the fan base, got our coach a pay day somewhere else, and gets folks to look past the shortcomings of that coach's performance between November and February. Expecting tournament berths and runs in March is the exception, not the normal. In MAC basketball, it just doesn't often happen. Even at Akron under Dambrot, a run I'm sure most here would love to have, they won jack in the tournament. Most of the time they got shelled on the big stage. It's a harsh realization, but we aren't Gonzaga. We aren't VCU. We aren't Wichita State. Expecting that type of result every year is a fool's errand, in my humble opinion.

spongeBOB CATpants
General User

Member Since: 8/16/2016
Post Count: 947

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 4:11:15 PM

100%Cat wrote:

Not sure anybody here is expecting sweet 16 runs every season, but I'm sure most of us expect to be competitive at home against Toledo. We looked like a d3 school and not because of how we played, but were completely outmatched athletically. This is why Saul's recruiting and plan is being questioned. IMO I don't think this team competes that much better with a full and healthy roster.

Last Edited: 1/18/2018 4:15:07 PM by spongeBOB CATpants

ohiocatfan1
General User

Member Since: 9/6/2016
Post Count: 319

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 4:13:45 PM

100%Cat wrote:

I don't know that anyone expects that. I certainly don't. But the lack of talent on this roster is glaring. Ellis Dozier may be a great kid, probably is, but a total recruiting whiff. And let's all be honest. Some of those seeing minutes are not close to D-1 talent. Gareri has no business being on the court at this level. We had no business on the same floor with Toledo in that regard.

Last Edited: 1/18/2018 4:16:29 PM by ohiocatfan1

spongeBOB CATpants
General User

Member Since: 8/16/2016
Post Count: 947

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 4:16:24 PM

ohiocatfan1 wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

I don't know that anyone expects that. I certainly don't. But the lack of talent on this roster is glaring. Ellis Dozier may be a great kid, probably is, but a total recruiting whiff. And let's all be honest. Some of those seeing minutes are not close to D-1 talent. We had no business on the same floor with Toledo in that regard.

took the words right out of my...keyboard?

100%Cat
General User

Member Since: 1/17/2013
Post Count: 2,491

Status: Offline

RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/18/2018 4:17:39 PM

spongeBOB CATpants wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

I've read a lot about MAC tourney semi's not being good enough and tourney berths every X number of years talk. We had an awful game. Remember when that glorious group of Sweet 16ers lost at home to Winthrop without cracking 50 points? I do, I was there. Was that really not uglier than the Toledo game?

Last Edited: 1/18/2018 4:18:02 PM by 100%Cat

Showing Replies:	76 - 100 of 165 Posts
Jump to Page:	< Previous 1 \| 2 \| 3 \| 4 \| 5 \| 6 \| 7 Next >

View Other 'Ohio Basketball' Topics

There are 182 Active Visitors on BobcatAttack.com

179 Guests
3 Registered Users:
	Diamond Cat, bobcatgrad, Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

There are no other users looking at this page.