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Ohio Football
Topic:  RE: Sook

Topic:  RE: Sook
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/22/2017 10:30:13 AM 
The Optimist wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Pretty good article in the ANews on this. This issue and the "free speech/protest" issue will be two big decisions for the new president. If Faculty Senate and Student Senate weigh in and agree with this proposal, that will be a tough voice to ignore.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/prof-group-tackles...


From what I've read here,the Student Senate and Faculty Senate have no real power/authority over pretty much anything,except themselves.

So what difference does it make how they feel on any issue ?

They pass a resolution for or against something,big deal.



Neither did MLK but he was a significant voice who wise people listened to. I hope our new president is equally as wise.

It's troubling that you mention MLK, one of the leaders of the civil rights movement, in a discussion about Faculty Senate when the Chairman of the Faculty Senate is named in a Federal civil rights lawsuit.



And just as Rod McDavis told me about the former superintendent of Columbus City Schools, innocent until proven guilty. Now if Joe is convicted, then that's another story but for now we need to let the courts decide.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/22/2017 11:03:56 AM 
I always see on this board where people want us using the Sports aD program guys more in our programs g. But are you guys aware that is who has started this Sook Center crap? The authors of this paper are our own Sports AD guy.
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/22/2017 2:49:35 PM 
I never thought that it was the athletic department's responsibility to guide me through the process and make sure I graduated. It was my responsibility. Maybe part of the problem is recruiting athletes who are not prepared for college. That and a much bigger time commitment to the sport than we had back in the day.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/22/2017 3:57:59 PM 
giacomo wrote:
I never thought that it was the athletic department's responsibility to guide me through the process and make sure I graduated. It was my responsibility. Maybe part of the problem is recruiting athletes who are not prepared for college. That and a much bigger time commitment to the sport than we had back in the day.

There has been a longstanding public image of athletes getting recruited, playing, and then leaving with no education or diploma. In the 1990's schools were required to reveal the graduation rates for athletes, and it was learned that only about 50% of athletes actually ended up graduating. To rectify this, in 2004, the NCAA made it a priority for Athletic Departments by instituting the APR (Academic Progress Rate), and rules that go with it. Now, if a school does not have athletes making sufficient academic progress, the school is punished by taking away scholarships or preventing them from participating in bowls.

The result is that all schools now have academic counseling and tutoring for athletes. Some have been doing this a long time, but for others, the counseling was instituted after the APR rules went into effect. I know that the University of Nebraska is one that has been doing this for much longer. My wife taught at UNL back in the early 80's, and for every athlete in her class, she had regular contact with an academic counselor who monitored whether the athlete was attending every class, and how they were doing on tests. She was never pressured to give passing grades, but when she would report that an athlete was missing class, suddenly the athlete's behavior would change, and they would start being there on time every week. My wife was impressed with the way the University handled this, and her comment was that if the parents of all students did this, they'd have a lot less people failing and dropping out.

Today, as a result of this program, I believe that the graduation rate for athletes is actually higher than it is for the general population, despite the time and commitment that they have for their sport.

Last Edited: 10/22/2017 4:00:28 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/23/2017 8:26:39 AM 
The APR leads to a very significant reason whey the proposal to move the Sook to the control of academics is a very bad idea. In designing any organizational system, you always want to delegate authority and accountability together or you end up with something disfunctional.

As it stands, that's the way it is, but if you move the Sook to academics, that is no longer true. With that structure, the Athletics office remains accountable for the results, and if the APR results are not met, will suffer the punishment, but they will have no power or control to enable them to meet that goal. This is the single most frustrating situation you can create - placing someone in a situation where they end up punished for something they have no control over.

Meanwhile, academics would have control over tutoring, but no accountability for the results, and no consequences if it doesn't turn out well. In that situation, good intentions alone don't usually lead to very good results, but worse, suppose they have a darker purpose, and would like to eliminate football? No problem, just don't run the tutoring program all that well, and viola, the APR drops, and football scholarships vanish, and football becomes non-competitive.

The reason the system evolved the way it did at Ohio, and at every other school, is that athletics has been given by the NCAA the responsibility of making sure that their athletes make academic progress. That, in turn, forced them to create the tutoring system so that they could make it happen. It is the natural and obvious answer, and, it works. Since the NCAA handed down the mandates, and since all schools created tutoring programs under the control of athletic departments, APR rates have steadily been rising everywhere.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Sam bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/23/2017 9:22:13 AM 
L.C. wrote:
The APR leads to a very significant reason whey the proposal to move the Sook to the control of academics is a very bad idea. In designing any organizational system, you always want to delegate authority and accountability together or you end up with something disfunctional.

As it stands, that's the way it is, but if you move the Sook to academics, that is no longer true. With that structure, the Athletics office remains accountable for the results, and if the APR results are not met, will suffer the punishment, but they will have no power or control to enable them to meet that goal. This is the single most frustrating situation you can create - placing someone in a situation where they end up punished for something they have no control over.

Meanwhile, academics would have control over tutoring, but no accountability for the results, and no consequences if it doesn't turn out well. In that situation, good intentions alone don't usually lead to very good results, but worse, suppose they have a darker purpose, and would like to eliminate football? No problem, just don't run the tutoring program all that well, and viola, the APR drops, and football scholarships vanish, and football becomes non-competitive.

The reason the system evolved the way it did at Ohio, and at every other school, is that athletics has been given by the NCAA the responsibility of making sure that their athletes make academic progress. That, in turn, forced them to create the tutoring system so that they could make it happen. It is the natural and obvious answer, and, it works. Since the NCAA handed down the mandates, and since all schools created tutoring programs under the control of athletic departments, APR rates have steadily been rising everywhere.


Nailed it.
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doubledribble
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/23/2017 9:22:16 AM 
L.C., your recent posts are spot on concerning the Sook facility and who should manage it. As a former D-1 athlete, college graduate and assistant coach at three different schools, I agree 100% with your recommended approach.
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Gallia Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/23/2017 8:12:17 PM 
CA Bobcat wrote:
Wow, where to begin. First, I was an Assistant AD for Academic Services and Compliance at an NCAA DI institution. If anyone else has held a similar position, please let me/us know. I have overseen an academic center for student-athletes and a certified tutor program. The idea of having the Academic side of the University oversee or manage the Sook Center is just dumb. For starters, cross functional alignment is an integral component of running an effective and compliant academic services program which includes academic support staff, coaches, student-athletes and athletics leadership. Everyone must be on board with the program and how it's being run. That won't work when the people running the program don't report into the same department as the people participating in the program, especially at OU, where the Academic side appears to have a pretty major "beef" with college athletics in general. Yeah, that's going to go real well. If you don't see this as just a political move by these "academics" who have their panties in a bunch about an athletics only facility, then you're totally out to lunch.

Then there's the rules component. Dear God, the number of times I had to educate the Academic side about all the NCAA eligibility rules, etc. only to have to continually remind and educate them because the traditional "advisors" kept screwing things up which would render a student-athlete ineligible. I can't imagine people from that arm of the University world trying (or caring to) manage things properly. I could go on and on.

People need to get it through their thick skulls...student-athletes are special and have special needs that require special attention and care from a special academic support staff. Example: my university had a very strict class attendance policy and due to the proximity of the schools in conference, we had soccer and tennis teams traveling all over the Earth during the week for competition. I had professors who were prepared to fail the student-athlete for missing class due to participation in University sponsored NCAA DI athletics competition. The Athletics-based Academic Support Advisor is going to work across the University within the guidelines of the rules (which they know and understand - and are changing all the time btw - yet they're required to know and understand) to find a reasonable solution so the student-athlete doesn't fail out of school for missing classes due to playing a sport which that same school recruited him/her to play (and are required to play to get the financial aid they signed up for). Just one of many examples. Academic-based counselors aren't going to advocate for the student-athlete in these scenarios because they don't report into the athletics department and guess who's going to suffer...you're student-athletes and then your athletics reputation.

This is also a matter of institutional control and as an AD, I'll be damned if I'm going to be on the hook to ensure my athletics department complies with all rules and regulations when I've got a whole arm of my operation that's out of my control. That's a lot of exposure and frankly, I don't want to be an AD where I don't have that control. It just takes one rogue or ignorant academic counselor or tutor to destroy everything and that can happen whether it lives on the Academic side or the Athletics side but let's be serious - where is it going to get undivided attention and oversight?!? Based on experience, there's only one correct answer - Athletics.

Why aren't these same "academics" requesting that the Athletics business affairs be managed by the University business office? Or, the NCAA compliance affairs be managed by the University Legal arm? Or, the Athletics fundraising handled exclusively by the University Advancement team? NCAA secondary violations and major infractions can easily occur in each of those areas, too, so why not? Umm, because that would also be very dumb and ultimately, because none of those functions are building an athletics only facility.



What he said! AMEN!
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Gallia Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/23/2017 8:17:33 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Pretty good article in the ANews on this. This issue and the "free speech/protest" issue will be two big decisions for the new president. If Faculty Senate and Student Senate weigh in and agree with this proposal, that will be a tough voice to ignore.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/prof-group-tackles...


God you’re exhausting.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/23/2017 10:54:26 PM 
Gallia Cat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Pretty good article in the ANews on this. This issue and the "free speech/protest" issue will be two big decisions for the new president. If Faculty Senate and Student Senate weigh in and agree with this proposal, that will be a tough voice to ignore.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/prof-group-tackles...


God you’re exhausting.


Fine, let faculty senate weigh in on this. And let each one know that they have to attend regular workshops and professional development to keep up with NCAA regulations, and they must also pass the same NCAA exams, and fill out the same NCAA disclosure statements, and by the way, they will not receive extra money! They also must be available all year on weekends for when recruits visit to speak with them and parents about 50 weekends a year. Oh and they get no extra money! They will have to field phone calls by 30 coaches at all hours of the day, night and evening and by the way they will get no extra money.

Now let's see how bad they want control over Sook and Academic Advising.
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CA Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/24/2017 12:54:24 AM 
Fine, let faculty senate weigh in on this. And let each one know that they have to attend regular workshops and professional development to keep up with NCAA regulations, and they must also pass the same NCAA exams, and fill out the same NCAA disclosure statements, and by the way, they will not receive extra money! They also must be available all year on weekends for when recruits visit to speak with them and parents about 50 weekends a year. Oh and they get no extra money! They will have to field phone calls by 30 coaches at all hours of the day, night and evening and by the way they will get no extra money.

Now let's see how bad they want control over Sook and Academic Advising. [/QUOTE]

You totally nailed it!! It is precisely all those things and more. It is more than a full time job and it's thankless work for very little pay. People do it because they love college athletics and student-athletes and that makes the hours and pay worth it. The "academics" are barking up the wrong tree and they may have bit off more than they can chew this time...just so they could stake claim to a physical structure. So sad that our "academics" are so dumb.
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Sam bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/24/2017 9:17:17 AM 
CA Bobcat wrote:


You totally nailed it!! It is precisely all those things and more. It is more than a full time job and it's thankless work for very little pay. People do it because they love college athletics and student-athletes and that makes the hours and pay worth it. The "academics" are barking up the wrong tree and they may have bit off more than they can chew this time...just so they could stake claim to a physical structure. So sad that our "academics" are so dumb.


Are they dumb? Or is it just arrogance? It seems to me that the dumb ones would be the fans who agree with the arrogant academics on this issue.

Last Edited: 10/24/2017 9:18:10 AM by Sam bobcat
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Bobcat1996
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/24/2017 1:51:34 PM 
"Fine, let faculty senate weigh in on this. And let each one know that they have to attend regular workshops and professional development to keep up with NCAA regulations, and they must also pass the same NCAA exams, and fill out the same NCAA disclosure statements, and by the way, they will not receive extra money! They also must be available all year on weekends for when recruits visit to speak with them and parents about 50 weekends a year. Oh and they get no extra money! They will have to field phone calls by 30 coaches at all hours of the day, night and evening and by the way they will get no extra money.

Now let's see how bad they want control over Sook and Academic Advising. [/QUOTE]

You totally nailed it!! It is precisely all those things and more. It is more than a full time job and it's thankless work for very little pay. People do it because they love college athletics and student-athletes and that makes the hours and pay worth it. The "academics" are barking up the wrong tree and they may have bit off more than they can chew this time...just so they could stake claim to a physical structure. So sad that our "academics" are so dumb."


CA BOBCAT NAILED IT! ACADEMICS WANTS NO PART OF THIS.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/24/2017 2:32:07 PM 
Bobcat1996 wrote:
"Fine, let faculty senate weigh in on this. And let each one know that they have to attend regular workshops and professional development to keep up with NCAA regulations, and they must also pass the same NCAA exams, and fill out the same NCAA disclosure statements, and by the way, they will not receive extra money! They also must be available all year on weekends for when recruits visit to speak with them and parents about 50 weekends a year. Oh and they get no extra money! They will have to field phone calls by 30 coaches at all hours of the day, night and evening and by the way they will get no extra money.

Now let's see how bad they want control over Sook and Academic Advising.


You totally nailed it!! It is precisely all those things and more. It is more than a full time job and it's thankless work for very little pay. People do it because they love college athletics and student-athletes and that makes the hours and pay worth it. The "academics" are barking up the wrong tree and they may have bit off more than they can chew this time...just so they could stake claim to a physical structure. So sad that our "academics" are so dumb."


CA BOBCAT NAILED IT! ACADEMICS WANTS NO PART OF THIS. [/QUOTE]

That first post was mine. And the academics who are writing this garbage, I can guarantee you want no part of the demands for this job.
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/24/2017 3:21:30 PM 
BobcatAttack Faculty Senate is in agreement.

We should schedule a press conference. I wonder if we will make front page of the AthensNews.

I've seen crazier things happen.

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/27/2017 3:30:24 PM 
I'm not for it no matter who pays for it. It's one of those perks that adds to the arms race of collegiate athletics. Because it's an "academic center", somehow it's holier than a players lounge, etc. It further separates the athlete from the rest of the students, which is not a good thing. Everyone is wired to the internet and intranet, plus there is a library. Maybe there is too much time being allocated to the sport and players time needs to be micromanaged. I guarantee if you mandate that players graduate, they will.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/28/2017 12:18:46 AM 
giacomo wrote:
I'm not for it no matter who pays for it. It's one of those perks that adds to the arms race of collegiate athletics. Because it's an "academic center", somehow it's holier than a players lounge, etc. It further separates the athlete from the rest of the students, which is not a good thing. Everyone is wired to the internet and intranet, plus there is a library. Maybe there is too much time being allocated to the sport and players time needs to be micromanaged. I guarantee if you mandate that players graduate, they will.


You probably want to go support the All-American Soap Box Derby, if those are the things you are worried about. And you obviously do not care if an OHIO team, ever wins another game.
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Sam bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/28/2017 6:26:13 AM 
giacomo wrote:
I'm not for it no matter who pays for it. It's one of those perks that adds to the arms race of collegiate athletics. Because it's an "academic center", somehow it's holier than a players lounge, etc. It further separates the athlete from the rest of the students, which is not a good thing. Everyone is wired to the internet and intranet, plus there is a library. Maybe there is too much time being allocated to the sport and players time needs to be micromanaged. I guarantee if you mandate that players graduate, they will.


You guarantee it do you? BAhaahaa!
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/28/2017 8:31:58 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
giacomo wrote:
I'm not for it no matter who pays for it. It's one of those perks that adds to the arms race of collegiate athletics. Because it's an "academic center", somehow it's holier than a players lounge, etc. It further separates the athlete from the rest of the students, which is not a good thing. Everyone is wired to the internet and intranet, plus there is a library. Maybe there is too much time being allocated to the sport and players time needs to be micromanaged. I guarantee if you mandate that players graduate, they will.


You probably want to go support the All-American Soap Box Derby, if those are the things you are worried about. And you obviously do not care if an OHIO team, ever wins another game.


Interesting that you brought up the Soap Box Derby because it was cheating in 1973 that all but ruined it. But to giacomo's points, I couldn't agree more. Not a popular opinion on this board but my opinion none the less.
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/28/2017 10:02:51 AM 
I was being tongue in cheek when I said "if you mandate players graduate, they will." Somebody will figure out a way to graduate players, whether it's recruiting better students, helping them or something nefarious, aka Chapel Hill. And you're right, I really don't care if we win another game. I want us to do the right thing. If we do that, we'll be competitive.
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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/29/2017 9:56:35 PM 
CABobcat and LC are spot on here.

Giacomo rants about the time they spend in their sport while it is well known that the NCAA mandates how much time they are ALLOWED to be in their sport in any given week. I suspect it may be much less than you think. How many hours a week did the rules allow when you played?

Every school we visited during the recruiting process and the others I have been to since have academic centers that help the athletes on the road with organizing and planning their weeks schedules/study and ensure study tables and tutorials. Best in our conference is CMU that has had their center in place for 10 years http://cmuchippewas.cstv.com/genrel/101207aaa.html Spoke with a mid 200s CMU baseball player ar Applebees the other night in Muncie on a biz trip about the center. Nothing but kudos.

My experience is pretty negative at both Ball and Ohio. A surprising number of Professors do not give a crap about athletes and openly tell me and the athletes to their face they do not appreciate their presence. I have listened to them voice their disdain toward athletes in my own office. Sometimes listening and just letting them talk is a pretty powerful learning tool

Experienced the ugly side with my own kid after an Ohio prof said "attendance is required to pass" knowing that the basketball team would be on the road 10 of 18 sessions of the class. THe kid was putting up stellar work and testing well but that was going to be negated by the attendance grade. Thankfully compliance jumped in and helped the prof with the regs. Putting those folk in charge does not seem to be the answer and LC and CaBob have eloquently stated some of the reasons why. I have yet to see anything in the discussion that would sway my opinion while I have seen good arguments against it by folks who understand it far better than those arguing for the Faculty Senate version

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/30/2017 7:03:50 AM 
bornacatfan wrote:

Giacomo rants about the time they spend in their sport while it is well known that the NCAA mandates how much time they are ALLOWED to be in their sport in any given week. I suspect it may be much less than you think. How many hours a week did the rules allow when you played?



Speaking from experience,there's a big difference between the number of "official" hours you spend on a sport and the amount of time you actually spend.

It also varies by sport.

When I played D1 soccer at O.U.,it was pretty much limited to practice (2-2 1/2 hours a day) and games.
Sometimes you'd spend some extra time working on a specific "skill",but it wasn't that often.
The biggest problem was lost time for travel for away games.

D1 wrestling was very different.
Pretty much the same amount of time for practice and matches.

The killer was the work you needed to do own your own.Conditioning,so you wouldn't "run out of gas" was critical.That meant running on your own in the morning.
We always had a "pre-practice" run,but that wouldn't get you the conditioning you needed to go up against the top competitors.

Same thing,lifting was up to you,on your time.

Throw in the work some guys needed to do on match days,to "make weight" and there were a lot of "unofficial" hours.

The other thing you have to look at is just how beat you are after practice.
Especially in wrestling,where you have to limit your food and fluid intake.

That's a big reason why I like the idea of Sook being run be the Athletic Department.
They understand what a student/athlete has to deal with better then a pure academic.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/30/2017 7:07:13 AM 
Sorry double posted .

Last Edited: 10/30/2017 12:55:21 PM by rpbobcat
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/30/2017 12:30:17 PM 
bornacatfan wrote:
CABobcat and LC are spot on here.

Giacomo rants about the time they spend in their sport while it is well known that the NCAA mandates how much time they are ALLOWED to be in their sport in any given week. I suspect it may be much less than you think. How many hours a week did the rules allow when you played?

Every school we visited during the recruiting process and the others I have been to since have academic centers that help the athletes on the road with organizing and planning their weeks schedules/study and ensure study tables and tutorials. Best in our conference is CMU that has had their center in place for 10 years http://cmuchippewas.cstv.com/genrel/101207aaa.html Spoke with a mid 200s CMU baseball player ar Applebees the other night in Muncie on a biz trip about the center. Nothing but kudos.

My experience is pretty negative at both Ball and Ohio. A surprising number of Professors do not give a crap about athletes and openly tell me and the athletes to their face they do not appreciate their presence. I have listened to them voice their disdain toward athletes in my own office. Sometimes listening and just letting them talk is a pretty powerful learning tool

Experienced the ugly side with my own kid after an Ohio prof said "attendance is required to pass" knowing that the basketball team would be on the road 10 of 18 sessions of the class. THe kid was putting up stellar work and testing well but that was going to be negated by the attendance grade. Thankfully compliance jumped in and helped the prof with the regs. Putting those folk in charge does not seem to be the answer and LC and CaBob have eloquently stated some of the reasons why. I have yet to see anything in the discussion that would sway my opinion while I have seen good arguments against it by folks who understand it far better than those arguing for the Faculty Senate version



EXACTLY!!!

Some here still remember the day when the football players were not excused from finals and would miss the last game of the season due to Saturday finals. More than once players were not available until half-time or had to leave a game early to go take their final.

And OHIO still has a good sized contingent of those types of professors today.

I am still amazed that anyone is giving Ridpath and his buddy and space at all in this conversation.
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Sook
   Posted: 10/30/2017 4:21:30 PM 
I don't know what the reality is today. I'm just giving you my perspective. I'm assuming the time demands are greater today than when I was there from 1977-81. When coaches make more money, there is incentive to coach 'em up. I know the NCAA has time limits, but I'm certain that line is blurred. Of course it is a challenge to play a division one sport and study. Time management skills are crucial, as is communication with professors and a commitment to your studies. My grades were lower as a result of juggling both, but I did graduate with my class on time. I feel I am better for the experience. I don't like the athletes being further segregated from the students. What about the band members, cheerleaders and those who work while attending class, and anyone who has extracurricular activities? Can they use the Sook Center? I don't think it's a bad thing, but makes me wonder about the big picture.
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