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Topic:  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Topic:  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/31/2017 5:38:19 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:

You seem to only jump into the conversation when you want to rile people up and then call them an asshole. You've done this multiple times to me as well. You say a point isn't valid, provide no evidence or argument to back up what you claim, and then when someone points that out you call them names. It's like a broken record at this point.


No. You missed it entirely. I didn't say a point wasn't valid. I said that if Mueller had all the facts that he should proceed with his case. That's it. For some reason, BLSOS hates that. Probably because he wants to have an argument about what he considers to be the facts of the case. The point is, if the facts are as unshakable as BLSOS contends, then this is a moot discussion.

And I don't recall ever calling you an asshole. I think I called you pretentious. Maybe I should reconsider.


Actually, you said:

"You should send that evidence over to Mueller. Apparently, he's still looking for it." Clearly implying that you don't see evidence of a connection to Russia in yesterday's news.

We haven't even engaged on what the facts of the case are, you've just assigned me a position and started arguing with it. You can accuse others of getting angry all you want, but all of this started because you jumped it to criticize the idea that people should hold their leaders accountable.

Last Edited: 10/31/2017 5:52:19 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/31/2017 6:18:16 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Actually, you said:

"You should send that evidence over to Mueller. Apparently, he's still looking for it." Clearly implying that you don't see evidence of a connection to Russia in yesterday's news.

We haven't even engaged on what the facts of the case are, you've just assigned me a position and started arguing with it. You can accuse others of getting angry all you want, but all of this started because you jumped it to criticize the idea that people should hold their leaders accountable.


And again, no. The only thing you have right about me is my quote above. The inference you made was your own. Not mine. Then, you argued against that.

Shame.

I see potential evidence. I don't see lockdown, rock-solid evidence. You do. Fine. If you're right, Mueller will bring charges to substantiate that. On your second point, again, no. I didn't criticize the idea that people should hold their leaders accountable.

Show me, exactly, where I said that.

The escalation of this discussion started with you. You accused me of sleeping through the last few days, remember? Was that being respectful, or were you being an ass? You and I both know the answer to that.



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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/31/2017 6:44:25 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Actually, you said:

"You should send that evidence over to Mueller. Apparently, he's still looking for it." Clearly implying that you don't see evidence of a connection to Russia in yesterday's news.

We haven't even engaged on what the facts of the case are, you've just assigned me a position and started arguing with it. You can accuse others of getting angry all you want, but all of this started because you jumped it to criticize the idea that people should hold their leaders accountable.


And again, no. The only thing you have right about me is my quote above. The inference you made was your own. Not mine. Then, you argued against that.

Shame.

I see potential evidence. I don't see lockdown, rock-solid evidence. You do. Fine. If you're right, Mueller will bring charges to substantiate that. On your second point, again, no. I didn't criticize the idea that people should hold their leaders accountable.

Show me, exactly, where I said that.

The escalation of this discussion started with you. You accused me of sleeping through the last few days, remember? Was that being respectful, or were you being an ass? You and I both know the answer to that.


We're just talking past each other at this point. I said that there's clear evidence linking his administration to Russia, and that that should be investigated. You pushed back against that idea over and over again.

The evidence is clear: a Trump campaign official plead guilty to lying to the FBI about his contact with Russia during the election. That's not potential evidence. That's evidence. He's now a cooperating witness. There's no rational way to deny that at this point. Mueller brought those charges yesterday. We don't have to wait and see. We saw yesterday.

Which, you know, is why I assumed you must have been asleep. I'm still, frankly, not sure what you're talking about or why you even involved yourself in a conversation you're unwilling to have.

As for when you pushed back on holding leaders accountable, you replied to a point I made to OCF and said "this is just plain silly." Which was the first thing either of us said to each other today, and you know, is not asshole-ish at all.

Last Edited: 10/31/2017 6:55:09 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/31/2017 6:59:42 PM 
The point I made was clear: if Mueller has the evidence, than Trump will ultimately go down.

What's not to understand about that?

Are we clear yet?
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/31/2017 7:03:06 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

As for when you pushed back on holding leaders accountable, you replied to a point I made to OCF and said "this is just plain silly." Which was the first thing either of us said to each other today, and you know, is not asshole-ish at all.



And for the love of god you can't be this dense. You said that OCF HIMSELF had the power to impact this investigation. And yes, that IS silly. Your point, that people like OCF have to raise pressure on congress is just stupid. It wouldn't impact this investigation. Mueller doesn't care what conservatives think about this issue. He's investigating no matter what OCF or anyone else thinks.

Yes, your pint was damn silly.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/31/2017 7:13:58 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

The evidence is clear: a Trump campaign official plead guilty to lying to the FBI about his contact with Russia during the election. That's not potential evidence. That's evidence. He's now a cooperating witness. There's no rational way to deny that at this point. Mueller brought those charges yesterday. We don't have to wait and see. We saw yesterday.



The evidence is clear, eh? We have evidence that some volunteer worker from Trump's campaign lied to the FBI. From that, you have deduced that we have rock-solid evidence that Trump colluded with Russia during the election.

This guy may provide additional evidence. At this point, we don't know what that is, what impact it may have, or what it will amount to. But apparently, you do. You know the evidence is already in. That Trump's goose is cooked.

Good for you. Other folks are not quite so sure yet. And that really bothers you.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/31/2017 7:24:53 PM 
You're just putting words in my mouth now. I never said collusion. In fact, all I ever did was call for further investigation based on the evidence we now have. You're welcome to point out where I said otherwise.

Also: I'd suggest you actually read Popodopoulos's indictment. Your interpretation sells it well short.

Last Edited: 10/31/2017 7:59:37 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/31/2017 7:26:37 PM 
A Republican columnist cogently explains why so many of us are talking past each other in this thread:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/opinion/mueller-trump-...
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Jerry86
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/1/2017 12:45:12 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Jerry86 wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Jerry86 wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

As for Trump being indicted, I said there's clear evidence linking his administration to Russia. We've seen that already.


You should send that evidence over to Mueller. Apparently, he's still looking for it.


It seems you've been asleep for two days. Do me a favor and check out the news from yesterday and then meet back here so we can debrief.



You may have missed your calling in life. If things are such a slam dunk how come Mueller & Co. don't know as much as you know .. or think you know? I'd strongly suggest you get in touch with them and pass along the damning evidence.


How about this: make the case that there isn't a connection. Between Papadopolous, Manafort, Carter Page, the Trump sons, etc.

We know a lot now, much of it sworn under oath. Make your case. How can you possibly argue there's no connection at this point?



I have no case to make. I'm perfectly willing to wait until the facts come out. Your post(s) seem to suggest you have solid evidence that Mueller doesn't have. And if you truly have that I think it's 100% relevant to pass that along. That can get them to the end point sooner versus later. On the other hand if you're merely conjecturing and hypothesizing based on assumptions you think may be facts then that's a different story. Mueller can't jump to conclusions in something this serious based on things that are non-factual at this time.


What do you think happened yesterday? Do you think it didn't clearly show an improper connection between Trump's foreign policy advisor and Russia? Papadopolous plead guilty to exactly that.

I'm not sure why stating what happened is being viewed as some political position and overreach.



Seems you're backpedaling. Here's what you posted to someone else:

Yesterday marked yet another instance of evidence coming forward that the Trump Administration had improper contact with Russia, and arranged a meeting to obtain illegally hacked emails. They have consistently lied about this subject, and about their contact with Russia in general. That includes, at this point, Jeff Sessions, Jared Kushner, Trump's sons, Paul Manafort, and a foreign policy advisor with a hard to spell Greek name. Two of those people are now going to prison.

There's a preponderance of evidence linking the Trump administration to Russi. [/QUOTE]


I despise Trump as much as many do. But you are way put of line. Put up or shut up.

Produce FACTS! What evidence do you have that is 100% factual that links Trump to Russia?

If you have it sent it to Mueller. Otherwise go into hibernation and refrain from posting innuendo based on what you 'think'.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/1/2017 7:39:22 AM 
I'm not backpedalling on anything. There are no inconsistencies between the two quotes of mine in your post.

Read the Papadopolous indictment. That is literally what it explains. I'm not basing this on innuendo, but quotes from the actual indictment. I'm not trying to be an asshole (to you) but I think you don't grasp the facts of that indictment. For what it's worth, you're also interpreting the quoted bit from my previous post to say more than it does.

A link has been proven. We have a campaign official pleading guilty to lying to the FBI about attempting to set up the meeting I mentioned. That doesn't prove collusion: I've never said as much. But it does establish a clear link, with intent, and approval from a yet-named senior campaign official.

What I'm saying is fact. Not innuendo. I'm not sure why this is even debatable. And I certainly don't understand how somebody could read that indictment and disagree with what I'm saying so vehemently as to think this level of condescension is justified.

Here's the link: https://www.justice.gov/file/1007346/download

The highlights include:

"From mid-June through mid-August 2016, PAPADOPOULOS pursued an “off the record” meeting between one or more Campaign representatives and “members of president putin’s office and the mfa.” For example, on or about June 19, 2016, after several email and Skype exchanges with the Russian MFA Connection, defendant PAPADOPOULOS emailed the High Ranking Campaign Official, with the subject line “New message from Russia”: “The Russian ministry of foreign affairs messaged and said that if Mr. Trump is unable to make it to Russia, if a campaign rep (me or someone else) can make it for meetings? I am willing to make the trip off the record if it’s in the interest of Mr. Trump and the campaign to meet specific people.” After several weeks of further communications regarding a potential “off the record” meeting with Russian officials, on or about August 15, 2016, the Campaign Supervisor told defendant PAPADOPOULOS that “I would encourage you” and another foreign policy adviser to the Campaign to “make the trip[], if it is feasible.”

And:

"The government notes that the official forwarded defendant PAPADOPOULOS’s email to another Campaign official (without including defendant PAPADOPOULOS) and stated: “Let[‘]s discuss. We need someone to communicate that DT is not doing these trips. It should be someone low level in the campaign so as not to send any signal.”

Bear in mind, the attempted meeting was arranged after Papadopolous was informed that Russia had illegally hacked emails of Clinton's that contained "dirt" on her. He also claims -- on the record -- to have told a Foreign Advisor meeting in March that he could arrange a meeting between Trump and Putin. Trump and Sessions were both present for that, which isn't hugely significant, except in the context of Sessions' sworn testimony insisting he'd heard of no attempt between the Trump campaign and Russia to meet.

So, to lay this out very clearly:

A "junior", "volunteer" campaign official connected with a Russian intelligence carveout multiple times and learned of hacked Clinton emails several months before that knowledge was made public. He notified unnamed senior campaign officials (their names are still redacted in the indictment, which is obviously an attempt to intimidate on Mueller's part) of said emails, and attempted to arrange meetings on behalf of the campaign to obtain said info.

It would, of course, be simple enough to write that off as some volunteer staffer going rogue, which is exactly what the Trump admin and Fox News types have tried to do, except the indictment also includes emails from senior officials encouraging Papadopolous to take the meeting, and another from a senior official congratulating him for a job well done.

That demonstrates a clear link, with intent. It also -- for the record -- demonstrates intent to commit a crime. Those emails were hacked illegally, obviously, and using illegally hacked information is a crime.

None of this proves collusion. None of it means the whole administration is coming down. But it does show a clear, legally proven link between the campaign and Russia in the form of emails between Papadopolous and senior campaign officials. That's irrefutable at this point.

With that context, let's now consider:

That Trump Jr. and Kushner took a meeting in Trump Tower to discuss adoption or whatever, and lied about it until the details came forward. That meeting was set up exactly one month after Papadpolous was given permission to arrange a meeting. The two certainly may be unrelated, but there's a troubling pattern of behavior here, correct?

Likewise, both Sessions and Kushner have repeatedly lied about the extent of their connections with Russians, and had to backtrack. Monday's proves another instance of this on Sessions part, where he was present in a meeting during which Papadopoulos offered to arrange a meeting between Trump and Putin. Again, that could be innocent enough. Sessions may have simply forgotten. But it demonstrates a pattern of behavior.

Meanwhile, I haven't said there's been proven collusion. I haven't called for impeachment. I haven't called for anybody else to go to prison.

All I said was -- and this was in the same fucking sentence you decided to only quote the first segment of, "There's a preponderance of evidence linking the Trump administration to Russia and we owe it to our republic to examine that. . ."

So, I've "put up". By quoting a widely reported news event. So now it's your turn. I've asked you to explain why Monday's news doesn't indicate a clear link, and you've chosen not to do so.

So now explain why you feel justified in being so condescending in your disagreement with what I've posted. Knock yourself out, and excited to learn how and why I'm "way out of line."


Last Edited: 11/2/2017 8:35:30 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/3/2017 6:00:01 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

As for when you pushed back on holding leaders accountable, you replied to a point I made to OCF and said "this is just plain silly." Which was the first thing either of us said to each other today, and you know, is not asshole-ish at all.



And for the love of god you can't be this dense. You said that OCF HIMSELF had the power to impact this investigation. And yes, that IS silly. Your point, that people like OCF have to raise pressure on congress is just stupid. It wouldn't impact this investigation. Mueller doesn't care what conservatives think about this issue. He's investigating no matter what OCF or anyone else thinks.

Yes, your pint was damn silly.


You still think my point's silly? Here's a resolution put forth by Republicans to remove Mueller from the investigation: http://www.businessinsider.com/republicans-introduce-bill...

If Republican lawmakers felt that their base cared even the littlest bit about actual justice in this case, they wouldn't think for a second they could get away with this shit.

As it turns out, it's not necessarily true that Mueller's investigating no matter what OCF or anyone else thinks. Because the actions of our lawmakers are dictated by the demands of their constituents. Imagine that.

And now, because so many people are willing to view this as a purely partisan issue, and the Republican base is willing to gloss over the charges as unimportant, shit like this happens. A principled Republican who has devoted his career to national service is being thrown under the bus because everybody in this country -- Democrats and Republicans alike -- care more about their party identity than they do about American values.

Last Edited: 11/3/2017 6:04:57 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/12/2017 9:18:32 AM 
This still seems to be unfolding as I expected. The number of people boycotting the NFL continues to grow, particularly this Veteran's Day weekend. I have a hard time believing that their revenue model isn't seriously effected, and I stronly believe that we will see a major adjustment in player salaries come time to sign free agents and draftees next year, and I expect the adjustment to be permanent, since I don't think viewership will ever recover, what with other issues out there like CTE. I'm not saying that pro football is dead, just that it will never again be what it once was.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/12/2017 12:41:22 PM 
Can't argue that the numbers are down. Can argue what is causing this downturn.

I suspect it has more to do with all the options millennials have at their disposal and less to do with the players kneeling during the national anthem.
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/12/2017 12:42:39 PM 
L.C. wrote:
This still seems to be unfolding as I expected. The number of people boycotting the NFL continues to grow, particularly this Veteran's Day weekend. I have a hard time believing that their revenue model isn't seriously effected, and I stronly believe that we will see a major adjustment in player salaries come time to sign free agents and draftees next year, and I expect the adjustment to be permanent, since I don't think viewership will ever recover, what with other issues out there like CTE. I'm not saying that pro football is dead, just that it will never again be what it once was.


I'm not saying it's a non-factor, but it's hard to pinpoint the rating issue on just one thing, as you even allude to here. The increasing awareness of the deleterious effects of the game itself and the rapid demise of the bundled cable subscriber base seem more likely to be eating in to the profit stream and driving football -- pee-wee, high school, college and pro -- from the dominant sport of the last 20+ years to a niche sport in just a generation or two.

Last Edited: 11/12/2017 12:44:42 PM by Recovering Journalist

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/12/2017 1:00:48 PM 
I agree that the other issues were eating into the following that football had, but would have led to a slow peaking and then a slow fall. Evidence is that even as of last year the league had record revenues. Instead of a peaking, I think the NFL is in for a sharp drop in revenue. When the players see a sharp drop in pay, they will have no one to blame but themselves.

As I have said previously, the players could have opted to use constructive methods to address the issues that wouldn't have offended anyone, such as setting up programs to aid the families of police shootings, or making appearances at fund raisers for such causes, but those would have taken effort. Kneeling was simple, and took no thought or effort. Unfortunately, all it did was offend people, and distract attention away from the issue they thought they were attracting attention to. Instead, they became the issue, and I never hear the underlying issue even being discussed anymore.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/12/2017 2:35:55 PM 
L.C. wrote:



As I have said previously, the players could have opted to use constructive methods to address the issues that wouldn't have offended anyone, such as setting up programs to aid the families of police shootings, or making appearances at fund raisers for such causes, but those would have taken effort. Kneeling was simple, and took no thought or effort. Unfortunately, all it did was offend people, and distract attention away from the issue they thought they were attracting attention to. Instead, they became the issue, and I never hear the underlying issue even being discussed anymore.


You're wrong in just about every way here. Many players are donating a lot of time, effort and money to a variety of causes, starting with Kaepernick. Kneeling certainly offends some people, but it's mostly because they hate anything but unquestioning fealty toward this country have unilaterally decided it's all about "disrespecting the troops" or "hating Murrrcah" and have ignored what protesting players are actually saying and doing beyond a two-minute song. This mile-long thread is but one small slice of proof that a bunch of presumably white middle-aged dudes ARE thinking and talking about the root issue here.

Last Edited: 11/12/2017 9:01:25 PM by Recovering Journalist

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/12/2017 4:07:10 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
Can't argue that the numbers are down. Can argue what is causing this downturn.

I suspect it has more to do with all the options millennials have at their disposal and less to do with the players kneeling during the national anthem.


Before the kneeling became as big an issue as it is,WFAN in general and Mike Francesa in particular were talking about issues with the NFL and fans.

Francesa has 2 sons one around 12.The other 10.
He said neither one of the kids,or any of their friends have any interest in a particular team or watching a game.
All they want to see are highlights of players for their fantasy team.

I get at least a couple of emails a week from the Giants about what they can do to improve my Game Day experience.
(winning now and then would be nice)

The list of problems with the NFL right now ranges from the games being too long,to players who seem to care only about their stats.

It is funny that college football doesn't seem to be suffering like the NFL.

A lot of that could be the fact that there is true "spirit" and excitement in the games.




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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/12/2017 6:30:10 PM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
.. This mile-long thread is but one small slice of proof that a bunch of presumably white middle-aged white dudes ARE thinking and talking about the root issue here.

I freely admit that I haven't read the thread from end to end, but in the times I have read it, I've not seen any posts discussing the underlying issues. Rather it seems to have devolved into general politics, Trump, Hillary, Mueller, etc.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/12/2017 8:33:05 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
.. This mile-long thread is but one small slice of proof that a bunch of presumably white middle-aged white dudes ARE thinking and talking about the root issue here.

I freely admit that I haven't read the thread from end to end, but in the times I have read it, I've not seen any posts discussing the underlying issues. Rather it seems to have devolved into general politics, Trump, Hillary, Mueller, etc.



It was also pointed out in this thread multiple times that TONS of NFL players have donated to the types of organizations and participated in the types of activism you are criticizing them for supposedly not being interested in.

Protests aren't usually popular when they're happening. These players are on the right side of history and I think that in the not-too-distant future we'll look back on this as a positive moment in the fight for justice.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/13/2017 12:20:25 AM 
DelBobcat wrote:
. . . Protests aren't usually popular when they're happening. These players are on the right side of history and I think that in the not-too-distant future we'll look back on this as a positive moment in the fight for justice.


We discussed this before and respectfully disagreed. But, I'll repeat that I don't believe these guys are modern-day Rosa Parkses, Ralph Abernathys, Roy Innises, or any of a host of others you might name who made a real mark during the Civil Rights Era of the 1960s. Back in the 1960s there was an expression "plastic hippie," which referred to someone who had the outward appearance of a hippie, but was not really committed to the lifestyle and was not willing to suffer for the cause. I submit that these NFL players are "plastic protesters" who are a mere shadow of the real thing and whose actions ring hollow. I know you totally disagree with this analysis, and that's OK. Neither of us will probably live long enough to know how history will assess these protests, but I suspect they will be judged harshly.

Last Edited: 11/13/2017 12:20:57 AM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/13/2017 8:05:17 AM 
L.C. wrote:

I freely admit that I haven't read the thread from end to end, but in the times I have read it, I've not seen any posts discussing the underlying issues. Rather it seems to have devolved into general politics, Trump, Hillary, Mueller, etc.



This thread has meandered a bit, but it never went off course. There's nothing more political than agents of the state killing unarmed civilians and going unpunished. How our leaders respond to that is critically important and speaks to their character.
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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/13/2017 10:49:55 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
. . . Protests aren't usually popular when they're happening. These players are on the right side of history and I think that in the not-too-distant future we'll look back on this as a positive moment in the fight for justice.


We discussed this before and respectfully disagreed. But, I'll repeat that I don't believe these guys are modern-day Rosa Parkses, Ralph Abernathys, Roy Innises, or any of a host of others you might name who made a real mark during the Civil Rights Era of the 1960s. Back in the 1960s there was an expression "plastic hippie," which referred to someone who had the outward appearance of a hippie, but was not really committed to the lifestyle and was not willing to suffer for the cause. I submit that these NFL players are "plastic protesters" who are a mere shadow of the real thing and whose actions ring hollow. I know you totally disagree with this analysis, and that's OK. Neither of us will probably live long enough to know how history will assess these protests, but I suspect they will be judged harshly.


I plan to be alive in 50 years. I think we'll look back on these protests positively long before that. We'll see.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/13/2017 12:54:43 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
.. This mile-long thread is but one small slice of proof that a bunch of presumably white middle-aged white dudes ARE thinking and talking about the root issue here.

I freely admit that I haven't read the thread from end to end, but in the times I have read it, I've not seen any posts discussing the underlying issues. Rather it seems to have devolved into general politics, Trump, Hillary, Mueller, etc.



This thread was largely about why a faction of posters (and by extension, the population) refuse to have that conversation. There are plenty of people having it. Just because you're not participating doesn't render the actions of these protesters obsolete, or mean the conversation isn't taking place.

For instance, look at who was just elected DA in Philadelphia. Do you not think the national conversation around police brutality contributed to that?

I tend to think it should be happening on a larger scale. Many people seem unwilling to engage for various reasons. So be it. You can lead a horse to water, etc.

Last Edited: 11/13/2017 12:56:42 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Kevin Finnegan
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/13/2017 1:43:08 PM 
L.C. wrote:
This still seems to be unfolding as I expected. The number of people boycotting the NFL continues to grow, particularly this Veteran's Day weekend. I have a hard time believing that their revenue model isn't seriously effected, and I stronly believe that we will see a major adjustment in player salaries come time to sign free agents and draftees next year, and I expect the adjustment to be permanent, since I don't think viewership will ever recover, what with other issues out there like CTE. I'm not saying that pro football is dead, just that it will never again be what it once was.


https://sports.yahoo.com/despite-threat-boycott-attendanc...

According to this article, the league's attendance was up this weekend.

What I notice as a one-time fan who would now say that he casually watches is that the quality of play is abysmal and the games are too slow to keep me overly interested. If you just look at QB play now, who's elite? Brees, Brady, Wentz...and who else? Alex Smith has looked pretty good this year, Matt Ryan is pretty good, but most others are middling. It's hard to get too fired up about a league that has Kizer, Beathard, Taylor, Fitzpatrick, Brissett, Hundley, and Savage starting at QB. This league has a star problem, quite the opposite of where the NBA is right now (and, I think where baseball is getting now as well).
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 11/13/2017 6:42:09 PM 
finnOhio wrote:
L.C. wrote:
This still seems to be unfolding as I expected. The number of people boycotting the NFL continues to grow, particularly this Veteran's Day weekend. I have a hard time believing that their revenue model isn't seriously effected, and I stronly believe that we will see a major adjustment in player salaries come time to sign free agents and draftees next year, and I expect the adjustment to be permanent, since I don't think viewership will ever recover, what with other issues out there like CTE. I'm not saying that pro football is dead, just that it will never again be what it once was.


https://sports.yahoo.com/despite-threat-boycott-attendanc...

According to this article, the league's attendance was up this weekend.

What I notice as a one-time fan who would now say that he casually watches is that the quality of play is abysmal and the games are too slow to keep me overly interested. If you just look at QB play now, who's elite? Brees, Brady, Wentz...and who else? Alex Smith has looked pretty good this year, Matt Ryan is pretty good, but most others are middling. It's hard to get too fired up about a league that has Kizer, Beathard, Taylor, Fitzpatrick, Brissett, Hundley, and Savage starting at QB. This league has a star problem, quite the opposite of where the NBA is right now (and, I think where baseball is getting now as well).


I think the NFL's basically just facing a perfect storm of factors that have led to a decline in ratings.

In addition to the folks all upset about the protests, there's a segment of people who can no longer stomach the health risks. Add to that your point -- that the product's as bad as it's been in a long time -- and the fact that fantasy sports participation has leveled off and that's an awful lot of regular viewers who just aren't paying the close attention anymore.
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