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Topic:  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Topic:  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/30/2017 11:43:48 AM 
Yes, Robert. What is racism? It is dividing an issue along racial lines. Therefore, Alan's statement, whether he realizes it is a patently racist statement. There are no doubt some racists of both sides of this issue. Trump, jumping into the debate also polarized the issue as well. Some 85% of his supporters took his side. Interestingly, 24% of Democrats also supported his position. Are those 24% white racists? If all white supremacists are Trump supporters, and only white supremacists oppose kneeling, that would seem impossible. Also, are we to believe that 55% of the people in the country are white supremacists? I don't believe that is remotely close to true.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/30/2017 12:06:38 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:


The only fans I see getting angry are white fans. I wonder if white players and primarily quarterbacks started taking a knee. I don't think we'd see nearly the ruckus we are now experiencing. For some, this is an easy way in a group environment to express racist beliefs. I said, for some.



Throughout this thread, some of us have been ridiculed for defensively stating we are not racists. Now do you see why?

I don't care what color you are. If you kneel during the anthem, I'll reject it.


And you have made that point consistently clear. That's why I very specifically said "some" twice and "nearly."

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/30/2017 12:09:24 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Yes, Robert. What is racism? It is dividing an issue along racial lines. Therefore, Alan's statement, whether he realizes it is a patently racist statement. There are no doubt some racists of both sides of this issue. Trump, jumping into the debate also polarized the issue as well. Some 85% of his supporters took his side. Interestingly, 24% of Democrats also supported his position. Are those 24% white racists? If all white supremacists are Trump supporters, and only white supremacists oppose kneeling, that would seem impossible. Also, are we to believe that 55% of the people in the country are white supremacists? I don't believe that is remotely close to true.


LC, I believe you misstated the definition of racism. See below.

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/30/2017 12:49:54 PM 
L.C. wrote:
The NFL has succeeded by being apolitical in a political world.


Wrong. The NFL has a long history of political activity, most recently by taking millions from the Department of Defense for flag-waving recruiting displays. This piece scratches the surface of that history, and doesn't even cover the inherent politics of bamboozling local and state governments into paying for stadiums.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/20...
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/30/2017 1:28:38 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:


The only fans I see getting angry are white fans. I wonder if white players and primarily quarterbacks started taking a knee. I don't think we'd see nearly the ruckus we are now experiencing. For some, this is an easy way in a group environment to express racist beliefs. I said, for some.



Throughout this thread, some of us have been ridiculed for defensively stating we are not racists. Now do you see why?

I don't care what color you are. If you kneel during the anthem, I'll reject it.


And you have made that point consistently clear. That's why I very specifically said "some" twice and "nearly."



Yeah, I know you did, but you also said "the only fans I see getting angry are white fans." I think your point is clear--whether you intended that point or not.

I don't think racism is much of a factor here. I truly believe those who are most offended by this would be offended no matter who was kneeling. Sure, there are always going to be racists, but in my opinion, that is not the majority. Not in this case.

Last Edited: 9/30/2017 1:30:35 PM by Robert Fox

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/30/2017 1:45:45 PM 
Alan, the definition I found was "the belief that race accounts for differences in human character". By that definition it doesn't have to involve prejudice, antagonism, nor superiority. It can, but doesn't have to.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racist

That is the definition I've always used.

Sure, Recovering, of course they were political in the lobbying for benefits sense. That only makes sense.

Last Edited: 9/30/2017 2:12:01 PM by L.C.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/30/2017 3:17:10 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:


The only fans I see getting angry are white fans. I wonder if white players and primarily quarterbacks started taking a knee. I don't think we'd see nearly the ruckus we are now experiencing. For some, this is an easy way in a group environment to express racist beliefs. I said, for some.



Throughout this thread, some of us have been ridiculed for defensively stating we are not racists. Now do you see why?

I don't care what color you are. If you kneel during the anthem, I'll reject it.


And you have made that point consistently clear. That's why I very specifically said "some" twice and "nearly."



Yeah, I know you did, but you also said "the only fans I see getting angry are white fans." I think your point is clear--whether you intended that point or not.

I don't think racism is much of a factor here. I truly believe those who are most offended by this would be offended no matter who was kneeling. Sure, there are always going to be racists, but in my opinion, that is not the majority. Not in this case.


Clearly split along racial lines but of course we'll never know how much that has to do with feelings toward the other race.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20858557/espn-survey-s...
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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/2/2017 11:14:59 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:


The only fans I see getting angry are white fans. I wonder if white players and primarily quarterbacks started taking a knee. I don't think we'd see nearly the ruckus we are now experiencing. For some, this is an easy way in a group environment to express racist beliefs. I said, for some.



Throughout this thread, some of us have been ridiculed for defensively stating we are not racists. Now do you see why?

I don't care what color you are. If you kneel during the anthem, I'll reject it.


And you have made that point consistently clear. That's why I very specifically said "some" twice and "nearly."



Yeah, I know you did, but you also said "the only fans I see getting angry are white fans." I think your point is clear--whether you intended that point or not.

I don't think racism is much of a factor here. I truly believe those who are most offended by this would be offended no matter who was kneeling. Sure, there are always going to be racists, but in my opinion, that is not the majority. Not in this case.


Clearly split along racial lines but of course we'll never know how much that has to do with feelings toward the other race.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20858557/espn-survey-s...


This. I can't see how a white guy who is offended by the kneeling can't look at this data and think to themselves "Hey, wait a minute, why is this so divided based on race?" and reevaluate what they themselves believe to be true.

There's a lot of hemming and hawing about how people who are offended by this are just supporting the troops, but that also implies that:

1. Black people, who overwhelmingly support the protests, do not support the troops.

2. White people who support the protests do not support the troops.

I hope we can all agree here that those two premises are false.

Maybe, just maybe, the fact that black people overwhelmingly see value in these protests indicates that there is a big problem with how they experience American life and maybe we should be a little more empathetic to it instead of trying to make this protest about something it is not.

Also, and this is an opinion I'm sure some here will vehemently disagree with, but I think that valuing conformity, tradition, and blind patriotism over someone's peaceful protest based on strongly held beliefs that our government and our American society is failing a portion of its citizenry is just about the most UN-American thing you can possibly do. I recognize that is a loaded sentence and I recognize that people here disagree with my characterization, but that's how I see it.

Finally, there was no outrage from most white people when actual Nazis paraded down the street in Charlottesville waving confederate flags and swastikas and chanting "we will not be replaced" while also hoisting high the American flag and pretending that their values were American values. That a majority of white Americans are more concerned with the kneeling than that, to me, speaks volumes about their character.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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Kevin Finnegan
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/5/2017 3:36:32 PM 
I apologize that I'm using this as a sounding board, but this issue has brought up a number of topics:
--Racism as it relates to this country
--Freedom of speech
--The value of football

Then, on ESPN's homepage, I saw that the NFL has announced that it will ban, possibly for life, a fan who used the n-word at a Chiefs game, directing it at Terrelle Pryor. Obviously, I think it's reprehensible and disgusting that the fan said that. But one thing about freedom of speech is that it is supposed to protect the speech we find most offensive. Should any fan that curses at a player be subject to a ban? If so, there are going to be a lot of fans who lose their seats. I guess, because the NFL is a business, it can ban whomever it wants, but would the fan have any grounds to stand on to say that they are having their first amendment rights infringed upon?
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/6/2017 9:03:27 AM 
finnOhio wrote:
I apologize that I'm using this as a sounding board, but this issue has brought up a number of topics:
--Racism as it relates to this country
--Freedom of speech
--The value of football

Then, on ESPN's homepage, I saw that the NFL has announced that it will ban, possibly for life, a fan who used the n-word at a Chiefs game, directing it at Terrelle Pryor. Obviously, I think it's reprehensible and disgusting that the fan said that. But one thing about freedom of speech is that it is supposed to protect the speech we find most offensive. Should any fan that curses at a player be subject to a ban? If so, there are going to be a lot of fans who lose their seats. I guess, because the NFL is a business, it can ban whomever it wants, but would the fan have any grounds to stand on to say that they are having their first amendment rights infringed upon?


In a word, NO, anymore than somebody fired for using the word at work would be able to count on some 1st Amendment remedy. Nobody has a right to go into a private business and act however they want, and that goes for speech too. Now, if the city, state or feds tried to prosecute him for his speech, we have a 1st Amendment issue. The NFL is perfectly within its rights to police behavior in its stadiums up to and including deciding what kind of player abuse and taunts to sanction.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/8/2017 3:23:23 PM 
Looks like the VP walked out of the SFO - Colts game today when some players kneeled.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/9/2017 11:55:43 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Looks like the VP walked out of the SFO - Colts game today when some players kneeled.


After flying 1800 miles with the purpose/intent of leaving, telling the reporters with him to stay in the van as they would be leaving early. Then hoping back on his plane and flying 2000 miles back to where he came from. So much for disparaging all that unnecessary travel. But hey, this is great P.R.
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That one crazy fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/9/2017 9:20:22 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Looks like the VP walked out of the SFO - Colts game today when some players kneeled.


A 6-hour flight on Air Force Two is roughly $96,000. Add in the costs of security to secure the stadium before the game, then the costs of redirecting traffic as well as the inconvenience it caused everyone in the city. Now ask yourself, would you be pissed if you found out you had to deal with that headache on the roads or trying to get in to see the game just because an elected official wanted to drop in for 5 minutes to make a protest statement? Hundreds of thousands of dollars wasted just for a moment.

Also remember, the guy he ran with more or less stated that he didn't think POWs were heroes and openly mocked the family of a fallen soldier, so his statement about "respect" for veterans rings pretty hollow.

Last Edited: 10/9/2017 9:35:25 PM by That one crazy fan


The opposing team sucks!

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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/10/2017 10:54:50 AM 
That one crazy fan wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Looks like the VP walked out of the SFO - Colts game today when some players kneeled.


A 6-hour flight on Air Force Two is roughly $96,000. Add in the costs of security to secure the stadium before the game, then the costs of redirecting traffic as well as the inconvenience it caused everyone in the city. Now ask yourself, would you be pissed if you found out you had to deal with that headache on the roads or trying to get in to see the game just because an elected official wanted to drop in for 5 minutes to make a protest statement? Hundreds of thousands of dollars wasted just for a moment.

Also remember, the guy he ran with more or less stated that he didn't think POWs were heroes and openly mocked the family of a fallen soldier, so his statement about "respect" for veterans rings pretty hollow.


So, basically, our p/vp combo make for quite a punchline and are two of the worst humans on Earth. -- sigh -- Maybe humanity will start evolving faster.

Last Edited: 10/10/2017 10:55:14 AM by Deciduous Forest Cat

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MedinaCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/10/2017 11:50:16 AM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
Maybe humanity will start evolving faster.


You just keep thinkin' Butch. That's what you're good at.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origi...
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/10/2017 5:09:02 PM 
According to a news report I heard on the way home,the NFL sent a letter to the owners saying it is considering a proposal to ban kneeling during the National Anthem.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/10/2017 6:05:41 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
According to a news report I heard on the way home,the NFL sent a letter to the owners saying it is considering a proposal to ban kneeling during the National Anthem.


If they do that, should we boycott the NFL as an organization that disrespects the Constitution? Does this place the shoe on the other foot.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/10/2017 6:23:57 PM 
Huge coincidence that this came the day that the President threatened the league's tax status.

P.S. Four US soldiers were ambushed and killed outside of a warzone last week. No official statement from the President. No tweets. But plenty of attacking the NFL, Jamelle Hill, and anybody who has the audacity to criticize the President, including his own Secretary of State, a GOP Senator, and a random professor at UNLV.

That's what Patriotism is in this administration: Blind nationalism packaged as support for the troops. But when actual troops die? Identity politics take precedence.

Last Edited: 10/10/2017 6:32:47 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/10/2017 7:24:47 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
According to a news report I heard on the way home,the NFL sent a letter to the owners saying it is considering a proposal to ban kneeling during the National Anthem.


If they do that, should we boycott the NFL as an organization that disrespects the Constitution? Does this place the shoe on the other foot.



I will do the opposite of what president asshat says

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/11/2017 6:46:04 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
According to a news report I heard on the way home,the NFL sent a letter to the owners saying it is considering a proposal to ban kneeling during the National Anthem.


If they do that, should we boycott the NFL as an organization that disrespects the Constitution? Does this place the shoe on the other foot.



As has been said here previously,this has nothing to do with the Constitution.
That was also stressed in the news story I heard.

This is strictly an employer/employee situation.

The NFL players are free to protest whatever they want,on their own time,outside of their workplace.




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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/11/2017 8:03:56 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
According to a news report I heard on the way home,the NFL sent a letter to the owners saying it is considering a proposal to ban kneeling during the National Anthem.


If they do that, should we boycott the NFL as an organization that disrespects the Constitution? Does this place the shoe on the other foot.



As has been said here previously,this has nothing to do with the Constitution.
That was also stressed in the news story I heard.

This is strictly an employer/employee situation.

The NFL players are free to protest whatever they want,on their own time,outside of their workplace.



And they used to be free to do so at their workplace, too. But then our head of state exerted public pressure on a private institution and conservatives cheered him on because, I dunno, the flag or whatever, and that private institution suddenly felt pressure to change their policy.

A true conservative would be aghast by that. But instead culture war.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/11/2017 10:16:52 AM 
And now Trump's on Twitter challenging the idea of the free press, and threatening to go after NBC's "license."

Again, conservatives should be outrages. The free press is a pillar of our country.

Instead, he continues to build a cult of personality around culture war issues, and his supporters look the other way.

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/11/2017 11:31:23 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


But then our head of state exerted public pressure on a private institution and conservatives cheered him on because, I dunno, the flag or whatever, and that private institution suddenly felt pressure to change their policy.

A true conservative would be aghast by that. But instead culture war.



Actually,I think it was the public that exerted the pressure.

Do you really think that if the actions of the players weren't having an effect on the NFL's bottom line,they'd even consider adopting a "no kneel" policy ?

As for being "aghast",I'm not.
Guess that means,in your eyes,I'm not a "true conservative" .
I'll just have to try and live with that.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/11/2017 12:18:20 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


But then our head of state exerted public pressure on a private institution and conservatives cheered him on because, I dunno, the flag or whatever, and that private institution suddenly felt pressure to change their policy.

A true conservative would be aghast by that. But instead culture war.



Actually,I think it was the public that exerted the pressure.

Do you really think that if the actions of the players weren't having an effect on the NFL's bottom line,they'd even consider adopting a "no kneel" policy ?

As for being "aghast",I'm not.
Guess that means,in your eyes,I'm not a "true conservative" .
I'll just have to try and live with that.


The public has every right to exert that pressure. The President -- our head of state -- shouldn't. You'd think small government proponents would agree.

Also: I never expected you to be aghast. I've seen enough of you in these threads to understand that policy has nothing to do with your political support. You're the fish. Trump's the guy with the gun standing next to the barrel.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/11/2017 12:33:43 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

The public has every right to exert that pressure. The President -- our head of state -- shouldn't. You'd think small government proponents would agree.

Also: I never expected you to be aghast. I've seen enough of you in these threads to understand that policy has nothing to do with your political support. You're the fish. Trump's the guy with the gun standing next to the barrel.


Funny,I seem to recall former president Obama trying to exert pressure in favor of social issues he felt important.

I never insulted you personally,even though I don't agree with your misguided (that's a joke by the way) liberal views.

It would be nice if you would extend the same courtesy to people who you disagree with.



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