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Topic: RE: Another protest

Topic: RE: Another protest

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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/11/2017 5:05:05 PM

Monroe, my man, please see the relevant U.S. Code:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1182

Most relevant section:

(f) Suspension of entry or imposition of restrictions by President

Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.

This is the statutory authority for executive orders on immigration. Note the lack of qualifiers here related the rationale of such orders. Note the phrase "as he shall deem necessary . . ." I've heard many legal experts -- both on the left and right -- say that if appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court this would likely be, even with today's eight-member court, a slam dunk overturn, 8-0, or at least 7-1.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

Monroe Slavin
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Location: Oxnard, CA
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/11/2017 5:53:50 PM

Don't have time to research but you need to think.

First, I very much believe that "finds" means that the President must establish some facts, some reasonable basis. Does the Pres really have 100% unfettered discretion here? I doubt it.

Heck, if he did then why the need to make the 'stop the terrorist refugees' case...why couldn't he do it without fear of any political or judicial curb if he can 'find' whatever he wants? No check and balance?

Second, I believe that I read or heard that there are other statutes or regulations or such which prevent wholesale type discrimination such as it appears Trump is doing.

An 8-0 or 7-1 from the Supremes? Maybe. But I think unlikely.

Heck, politically, as a rightsider you probably don't want that result.

Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!

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OhioCatFan
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/11/2017 6:48:27 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Wrong!

Yes, I would love a 8-0 overturn of the Ninth Circus, as it's affectionately called.

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/12/2017 3:31:47 AM

Doing a Trump as your full response to a reasonable debate is very impressive.

Truly Trump; when the facts and logic don't work, you bleat.

Monroe Slavin
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Location: Oxnard, CA
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/12/2017 3:35:50 AM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/aide-michael-flynn-forced-job-...

http://www.salon.com/2017/02/10/what-happened-in-yemen-np... /

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/12/2017 3:57:28 AM

OCF--You might want to read the ruling.

I don't think you understand 1) the standard for whether a TRO should be granted or lifted and 2) the variety of parts of the Constitution and legislation and regulations called into play by Trump's EO.

And that's just from an extremely quick read of the first 4 pages of 4-5 pages of the decision by the 9th Circuit.

http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2017/02/09...

OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/12/2017 10:12:55 AM

Hey, Monroe, here's an excerpt from an Amicus brief filed by a man, Jay Sekulow, who unlike either of us has actually argued and won cases before the U.S. Supreme Court:

"Cutting through the hyperbole and inflammatory rhetoric surrounding the Order, Amicus Curiae urges this Court to carefully consider what the President�s Executive Order actually does and what it does not do. Expressly relying on authority and procedures set forth in 8 U.S.C. 1187(a)(12), the Order suspends for 90 days the entry of people from 'countries of particular concern'(currently Iran, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Libya, Yemen and Somalia � all countries already designated as such during President Obama�s administration). Sec. 3(c). Among other reasons, this 90-day pause is �to ensure that adequate standards are established to prevent infiltration by foreign terrorists or criminals.�

"Certain diplomatic and governmental visa holders are exempted. The Order also requires a 'determination of the information needed for adjudications and a list of countries that do not provide adequate information, within 30 days'; the U.S. Department of State to request such information from all foreign governments; and a recommendation of countries whose nationals should be prohibited entry due to a country�s failure to provide the information. Sec. 3. Concerning refugee acceptance, the Executive Order suspends the USRAP for 120 days, during which the program will be reviewed 'to determine what additional procedures should be taken to ensure that those approved for refugee admission do not pose a threat to the security and welfare of the United States, and shall implement such additional procedures.'Sec. 5(a). The Order also 'prioritize[s] refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a minority religion in the individual's country of nationality.' Sec. 5(b). The Order suspends the acceptance of Syrian refugees as 'detrimental to the interests of the United States' until 'sufficient changes' have been made to the refugee program. Sec. 5(c). The Order decreases the overall refugee cap to 50,000, Sec. 5(d), much closer to normal refugee limits before the prior administration dramatically increased the number this past year. It is abundantly clear that the President clearly has the discretionary authority to make this adjustment."

Full brief if you care to read it:

http://media.aclj.org/pdf/E-filed-ACLJ-Amicus-9th-Cir-re-...

Last Edited: 2/12/2017 12:13:29 PM by OhioCatFan

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/12/2017 11:30:53 AM

Seriously?

Don't need to read it.

Maybe you are not aware, but the losing briefs are not law. The decision is the law.

(Neither are winning briefs unless specifically used in a decision.)

See, it's like when a team goes 12 seasons without a MAC title. That means they did not win a MAC title over those 12; it does not mean that they did.

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/12/2017 11:49:04 AM

This is fun. Let's dissect the section you quoted.

It relies on one Code section. Do parts of the Constitution or other laws or regulations also come into play? Is the Code section legal/valid? Is the way that Trump used it valid?

Did you read even the beginning of the decision? The state of Washington alleged "in violation of the First and Fifth Amendments, the INA, the Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, and the Administrative Procedure Act..."

See, it isn't the Code section alone that rules. Whether the Code section is 'legal' in respect of the Constitution and other laws/regs is part of it.

Are the 7 nations impacted the only "countries of concern"?

What proof is there that there are not "adequate standards" to prevent terrorist infiltration? Again, no evidence of terrorist deaths since 9/11 done in the U.S. by people from these 7 nations.

"information needed for adjudications"...of what? "from all foreign countries"--or just these 7?? Doesn't the U.S. do at least some of the 'adjudication' of whether immigration should be approved?

That it is 'abundantly clear that the Pres has the authority to make this adjustment in the number of refugees is not clear from what you quote..and, apparently, not from the arguments made by Trump's side (at least so far and to the extent that the substance was in issue..as opposed to the TRO standards of significant harm, likely to win on merits...oops, win on merits is the substance.)

Maybe Trump will win this in the end. But you're shedding no light here.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/12/2017 3:59:08 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

I think this might have some relevance to the current discussion, since there have been allusions to Republicans being soft in racism:

http://tinyurl.com/zgaqzo7

Does that make the right's racism better or worse? Or is the idea that you can justify support for the campaign Trump just ran and the vocally White Supremacist supporters he emboldened if some people on Twitter of uncertain race made racially charged comments at a black senator?

I mean, I think we can both agree racism is a problem in this country right? And that racism in this country doesn't adhere to party lines. So what purpose does "but they're racist too" serve here?

Most of the charges along these lines that I've heard in recent years have been the left saying that people on the right are racists or white supremacists. Senator Scott's experience just shows that there is real hatred with racial overtones coming back the other way. While I'm sure you can find some white supremacists who voted for Trump, to imply that that was a significant enough number to have made much of a difference I think is disingenuous. It's kind of like saying the some known Communists voted for Obama, therefore, he must be a Communist, or at least a Pinko. Racism, and specifically, slavery was our great national "original sin." Of that there can be no doubt and little argument. We are in totally agreement on that score. My major point, made somewhere up this thread (or in another related thread, hard to keep track), is that we all need to stop throwing around the words "racist" and "white supremacist" unless we have real solid, objective evidence. Here, I'm not really talking about any specific case, but just making a general statement that these terms are being overused to the point that when we need to confront real racism or white supremacism that a lot of folks will take a collective yawn because we've cried wolf once too often.

I understand your point, I'm I'm sympathetic to it to a point. For words to retain their utility, they must be used properly. No argument here.

But I also think the word policing on the right is often times nothing more than willful avoidance. It's true that there are many on the left who over-charge when it comes to racism, but at the same time, reasonable conservatives don't do nearly enough to push back against policies levied by the GOP that are obviously discriminatory.

It was the Republican party in North Carolina that pushed deliberate and purposeful voter suppression laws, and were caught doing so red handed. Simultaneously, other Republicans decided that the Voting Rights Act had outlived its usefulness and pushed to have it stripped. That's the party that nominated Jeff Sessions, a man with accusations of blatant racism hanging over him for the last 30 years. How many years did the President spend insisting Obama was born in Kenya? How does he speak about immigrants? Refugees? Context matters.

So while in a vacuum, it's easy enough to write accusations against Sessions off as Sessions' having a shitty sense of humor, politics doesn't exist in a vacuum. Any party serious about racism would be far more mindful of the optics of nominating Sessions in the wake of something as egregious as North Carolina. Suppressing minority voters is not a big yawn, and falling into a pattern of writing off accusations as crying wolf does America, and your own party, a huge disservice.

The left's accusations of racism don't come out of nowhere. Are they an unfair label to a huge chunk of the party? Absolutely they are. But there's a solution beyond calling protesters snowflakes and yawning accusations away: rid your party of the people that push things like North Carolina voter suppression.

Last Edited: 2/12/2017 4:07:20 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/12/2017 4:07:24 PM

BLSS, on this note of partial, and civil, agreement, I'm going to take my leave of this discussion. It's time to get back to Bobcat sports! Let's all work together to make the USA a better country for all its citizens! Maybe, this should even include those who live in Oxford, Ohio. ;-)

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/12/2017 4:20:49 PM

Great post, BLSS.

Can't help leave it with this:

Nice try on the end run on the governorship in N.C. that was struck down.

Also, another from you can't make this stuff up/are the SNL writers working for this administration:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/dept-of-education-apologizes-f...

BillyTheCat
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/13/2017 11:31:29 AM

OhioCatFan wrote:

Key words here are "detrimental", as of yet the administration has yet to be able to there is a threat or that this is detrimental. Also at issue is the fact the Administrations own comments have repeatedly stated this was a religious issue, which is in violation of the Constitution.

rpbobcat
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/13/2017 12:05:56 PM

BillyTheCat wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

I was listening to show about this last week.

I haven't been able to find anything on it,but according to the attorneys on the show,during Reagan's term he signed an Executive Order allowing some type of special immigration status for Russian Jews.

DelBobcat
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/13/2017 3:04:00 PM

rpbobcat wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

American policy had already been that Soviet Jews were eligible refugees. Throughout the 80s many who wanted to come to the U.S. were forced to go to Israel instead because we only accepted so many. Reagan instructed that some refugee slots allocated to Southeast Asia be transferred to the Soviet Union to allow more refugees to come from the USSR to the U.S. This was met with criticism from both sides. Some didn't think Soviet Jews should qualify as refugees at all, since they had the ability to resettle in Israel. Others in the American Jewish community thought that Reagan's order didn't go far enough, and that all Soviet Jews that wanted to come to the U.S. should be allowed.

Either way, it's not really relevant to the constitutionality of Trump's order. Reagan just reallocated the refugee slots based on geography. In addition to Soviet Jews, we also accepted Evangelical Christians and Ukrainian Catholics from the Soviet Union and Jews were not given any kind of priority based on their specific religion.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

DelBobcat
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/13/2017 3:19:46 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

I've heard many legal experts -- both on the left and right -- say that if appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court this would likely be, even with today's eight-member court, a slam dunk overturn, 8-0, or at least 7-1.

Can you provide some sources? This is baffling to me. I have not heard such a claim from anyone that knows anything about the law. I would bet all the money in the world that IF the court agrees to hear the case it will NOT be an 8-0 decision. I think that most legal scholars on both sides are in agreement that the mostly likely outcome would be 4-4 or 5-3--and that a ruling that strikes down parts of the ban and leaves others is a likely outcome.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

rpbobcat
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/13/2017 3:40:49 PM

DelBobcat wrote:

rpbobcat wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

As I said,I wasn't able to find anything on this,but the attorneys on the show made a specific comparison to Reagan with Russian Jews and Trump.

As far as the Supreme Court,I wouldn't hazard a guess how they'd vote.

Personally,I wouldn't want to take a chance,even with the new justice.

My opinion,drop the first EO and issue a new "tighter" version.

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/15/2017 10:47:53 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/clinton-staffers-on-times-repo...

OCF--no response ..espec to the facts....Trumpy said he'd have a response, his next move, re the immigration/via Exec Order restraining order by Tuesday. That was yesterday. Where is it.

About that Trumpcare: WHERE'S THE PLAN?

BillyTheCat
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/16/2017 11:07:49 AM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Trump is the king of saying something will happen "next week" as a way of satisfying people, with the strategy of hoping/thinking they will forget. Kind of like what a parent does to a young kid.

rpbobcat
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/16/2017 12:53:13 PM

BillyTheCat wrote:

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Trump is the king of saying something will happen "next week" as a way of satisfying people, with the strategy of hoping/thinking they will forget. Kind of like what a parent does to a young kid.

Kind of like some one else's "line in the sand "?

Monroe Slavin
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Location: Oxnard, CA
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/16/2017 3:49:57 PM

How do you know that Trump is doing a great job and his administration is a perfectly tuned machine?

You ask him.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-claims-incredible-pr...

Robert Fox
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/16/2017 4:04:52 PM

I guess it's contagious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhJNJgjpuWk

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/16/2017 4:32:45 PM

There's a difference between a reasonable claim, albeit one that could be debated, and utter nonsense.

Of course, that isn't true when you go with false 'facts' and 'any negative polls are false news.'

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-touts-false-claim-about-...

This isn't even about politics. It's just about a way to govern that seems on a trainwreck path to failure. Attacking members of Congress, espec of your own party--is that the way to go?

Bonus: Repubs...WHERE'S YOUR PLAN...proposoals/plans to replace Obamacare seem to be running up against all the problems that Obama wisely, and at great reputational risk, addressed in Obamacare.

Robert Fox
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/16/2017 4:53:52 PM

Obama risked his reputation? Heavens!

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Another protest

Posted: 2/16/2017 5:46:46 PM

What's your point, Robert?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-gives-25-minute-statemen...

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