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Topic:  RE: An assault on old OU

Topic:  RE: An assault on old OU
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,024

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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/10/2017 2:24:43 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:


Yes, and I would argue that we need to shit the burden away from local property taxes and toward the state. That way local property owners in certain areas aren't unfairly burdened and we can also have a more equal amount of spending across the state.


I won't speak for anywhere else,but never gonna happen in North Jersey.

Home Rule is sacrosanct out here.

People move to certain towns,just for their schools.

People will pay higher taxes just for better schools.

The other issue,if schools are funded through the state,how much "control" do they exert?
Do you eliminate local control including tenure and transferring teachers ?



My simple solution to the school funding debate is to determine how much you need per kid to provide an (fill in the blank) education. Multiply that amount by the number of kids in the state of Ohio to see how much revenue is needed. Divided that by the value of all of the real property in the state and whatever millage that comes out to, everyone pays that millage. If a local district wants to go to the local voters for more, they can. It's tough to justify paying 60 mills when the other districts in the county pay an average of 31.
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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,504

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/10/2017 2:42:58 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:


Yes, and I would argue that we need to shit the burden away from local property taxes and toward the state. That way local property owners in certain areas aren't unfairly burdened and we can also have a more equal amount of spending across the state.


I won't speak for anywhere else,but never gonna happen in North Jersey.

Home Rule is sacrosanct out here.

People move to certain towns,just for their schools.

People will pay higher taxes just for better schools.

The other issue,if schools are funded through the state,how much "control" do they exert?
Do you eliminate local control including tenure and transferring teachers ?



My simple solution to the school funding debate is to determine how much you need per kid to provide an (fill in the blank) education. Multiply that amount by the number of kids in the state of Ohio to see how much revenue is needed. Divided that by the value of all of the real property in the state and whatever millage that comes out to, everyone pays that millage. If a local district wants to go to the local voters for more, they can. It's tough to justify paying 60 mills when the other districts in the county pay an average of 31.


Sounds like a reasonable approach to me.
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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,486

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/13/2017 11:34:18 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:


Yes, and I would argue that we need to shit the burden away from local property taxes and toward the state. That way local property owners in certain areas aren't unfairly burdened and we can also have a more equal amount of spending across the state.


I won't speak for anywhere else,but never gonna happen in North Jersey.

Home Rule is sacrosanct out here.

People move to certain towns,just for their schools.

People will pay higher taxes just for better schools.

The other issue,if schools are funded through the state,how much "control" do they exert?
Do you eliminate local control including tenure and transferring teachers ?



My simple solution to the school funding debate is to determine how much you need per kid to provide an (fill in the blank) education. Multiply that amount by the number of kids in the state of Ohio to see how much revenue is needed. Divided that by the value of all of the real property in the state and whatever millage that comes out to, everyone pays that millage. If a local district wants to go to the local voters for more, they can. It's tough to justify paying 60 mills when the other districts in the county pay an average of 31.


Sounds like a reasonable approach to me.




Problem there is cost in Appalachia is NOT equal to cost in Cleveland, Cincinnati, etc...

However, that's a hell of a lot more equitable than the current system. The great push-back though is that the wealthy districts control the legislature and do not want to see "their" money sent to those poor districts.
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,024

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/14/2017 9:17:51 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:


Yes, and I would argue that we need to shit the burden away from local property taxes and toward the state. That way local property owners in certain areas aren't unfairly burdened and we can also have a more equal amount of spending across the state.


I won't speak for anywhere else,but never gonna happen in North Jersey.

Home Rule is sacrosanct out here.

People move to certain towns,just for their schools.

People will pay higher taxes just for better schools.

The other issue,if schools are funded through the state,how much "control" do they exert?
Do you eliminate local control including tenure and transferring teachers ?



My simple solution to the school funding debate is to determine how much you need per kid to provide an (fill in the blank) education. Multiply that amount by the number of kids in the state of Ohio to see how much revenue is needed. Divided that by the value of all of the real property in the state and whatever millage that comes out to, everyone pays that millage. If a local district wants to go to the local voters for more, they can. It's tough to justify paying 60 mills when the other districts in the county pay an average of 31.


Sounds like a reasonable approach to me.




Problem there is cost in Appalachia is NOT equal to cost in Cleveland, Cincinnati, etc...

However, that's a hell of a lot more equitable than the current system. The great push-back though is that the wealthy districts control the legislature and do not want to see "their" money sent to those poor districts.


It's less because the majority of costs are personnel and those costs are less in Appalachia. As for their money, it's all ready being sent here by the bucket load.

Last Edited: 2/14/2017 10:39:33 AM by Alan Swank
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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,504

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/15/2017 6:50:59 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:


My simple solution to the school funding debate is to determine how much you need per kid to provide an (fill in the blank) education. Multiply that amount by the number of kids in the state of Ohio to see how much revenue is needed. Divided that by the value of all of the real property in the state and whatever millage that comes out to, everyone pays that millage. If a local district wants to go to the local voters for more, they can. It's tough to justify paying 60 mills when the other districts in the county pay an average of 31.


They're debating this right now in the N.J. Legislature.
Gov. Christie wants to give each district a set of amount of State Aid per student.

According to The Record,opposition to this is coming from the teachers union and democratic members of the legislature.

Currently poor (income and performance) school districts get a lot of state aid as "Abbot" districts.
Abbot was the name of court case on school funding.

Problem is,even with all this money,the Abbot districts haven't shown any improvement.In fact,a number of them keep keeping worse.

Also the current formula doesn't adjust for districts based on enrollment increases or decreases.



Last Edited: 2/15/2017 6:52:01 AM by rpbobcat
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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,486

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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/15/2017 10:39:03 AM 
These poorer districts have more problems and issues, primarily expensive issues, they need more counsling services, more resource officers, more aides, more special education and special needs programs.

And you want to make schools better, improve parenting!
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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,504

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/15/2017 10:53:41 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
These poorer districts have more problems and issues, primarily expensive issues, they need more counsling services, more resource officers, more aides, more special education and special needs programs.

And you want to make schools better, improve parenting!


Thing is,the "Abbot" districts do get a s _ _ _ load of money.
Much more then any other district.
They just seem to find ways to P _ _ _ it away.

The state doesn't want to tick off the teacher's and administrators' unions by requiring strict standards and accountability as to how the money is spent.
There was an article in the paper a while ago that one district's accounting practices were so lax they couldn't find how several million dollars were spent.
To me, that's criminal,literally.But nothing happened.

The other issue with "Abbots" is that they get more money every year,with no results.
In fact,as I said previously,in some districts things got worse.
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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,486

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/15/2017 8:15:57 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
These poorer districts have more problems and issues, primarily expensive issues, they need more counsling services, more resource officers, more aides, more special education and special needs programs.

And you want to make schools better, improve parenting!


Thing is,the "Abbot" districts do get a s _ _ _ load of money.
Much more then any other district.
They just seem to find ways to P _ _ _ it away.

The state doesn't want to tick off the teacher's and administrators' unions by requiring strict standards and accountability as to how the money is spent.
There was an article in the paper a while ago that one district's accounting practices were so lax they couldn't find how several million dollars were spent.
To me, that's criminal,literally.But nothing happened.

The other issue with "Abbots" is that they get more money every year,with no results.
In fact,as I said previously,in some districts things got worse.



Again, you dismiss the number one factor in education and that is the parental support! And I'm willing to bet those poorer schools are closing the gap much better than the other schools you want to compare them to. To look at this situation believing that all schools, communities and student population is equal is misguided at best.

And "one districts accounting practices", how many districts are there? Coloring all the rural schools as being mismanagers of funds is akin to calling all cops corrupt because one broke the law and is in prison. I'm sure we could find one person in your field or one business in your field that's poorly managed or has a corrupt employee. Hell, look at our President.
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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,504

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/16/2017 6:55:47 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:


Again, you dismiss the number one factor in education and that is the parental support! And I'm willing to bet those poorer schools are closing the gap much better than the other schools you want to compare them to. To look at this situation believing that all schools, communities and student population is equal is misguided at best.

And "one districts accounting practices", how many districts are there? Coloring all the rural schools as being mismanagers of funds is akin to calling all cops corrupt because one broke the law and is in prison. I'm sure we could find one person in your field or one business in your field that's poorly managed or has a corrupt employee. Hell, look at our President.


1.I'm not dismissing anything.
I'd love to take your bet on how poorer schools are "closing the gap".
The poor performance in abbot districts is the reason why the state wants to change the funding formula.
The state keeps throwing more money into these districts,with no results.

2.I never made any reference to schools,communities etc. being equal.
What I'm saying is that throwing more money at these districts isn't working.

3.There are 31 Abbot districts.
There have been a number of articles about financial mismanagement in them.
The example I referenced was the worst.

4.Where did you come up with "rural" from any of my posts on this ?
Abbot districts are, with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions, all in urban areas.
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DelBobcat
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/16/2017 9:31:12 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:


Again, you dismiss the number one factor in education and that is the parental support! And I'm willing to bet those poorer schools are closing the gap much better than the other schools you want to compare them to. To look at this situation believing that all schools, communities and student population is equal is misguided at best.

And "one districts accounting practices", how many districts are there? Coloring all the rural schools as being mismanagers of funds is akin to calling all cops corrupt because one broke the law and is in prison. I'm sure we could find one person in your field or one business in your field that's poorly managed or has a corrupt employee. Hell, look at our President.


1.I'm not dismissing anything.
I'd love to take your bet on how poorer schools are "closing the gap".
The poor performance in abbot districts is the reason why the state wants to change the funding formula.
The state keeps throwing more money into these districts,with no results.

2.I never made any reference to schools,communities etc. being equal.
What I'm saying is that throwing more money at these districts isn't working.

3.There are 31 Abbot districts.
There have been a number of articles about financial mismanagement in them.
The example I referenced was the worst.

4.Where did you come up with "rural" from any of my posts on this ?
Abbot districts are, with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions, all in urban areas.


Not everyone agrees with you that Abbott districts have been a failure. From a forum at Columbia University:

"David Sciarra, executive director of the Education Law Center in Newark, said New Jersey has made progress toward more equitable funding for low-income districts. The Abbott districts also have produced high quality preschools that are models for the nation; instituted supplemental programs for at-risk children in grades K-through-12; and assisted in the building or renovation of 200 inner-city schools.

Sciarra, whose organization serves as a legal watchdog for the Abbott districts, said the gap in state math test scores between fourth graders in Abbott districts and non-Abbott districts narrowed from 31 points in 1999 to 19 points in 2007, and on state reading tests from 22 points in 2001 to 15 points in 2007. Success in eighth grade was more modest, narrowing from 30 points in 2000 for math in 2000 to 26 points in 2007, and staying at 20 points for reading during the same years. The achievement gap has not narrowed in high schools, but New Jersey has the highest high school graduation rates in the nation for African American males, Sciarra said.

“The truth is, we have started to make some real progress,” Sciarra said. “When people ask, ‘what did Abbott do,’ I say, we still have a long way to go, but the answer is, a heck of a lot.”

I personally agree that no amount of money in the world is going to bring every poor kid in line with the academic achievement of their wealthier peers. That's an impossible goal. But equal funding is an obvious first step toward helping to close the gap. Time and time again it has been proven to provide a benefit to low-income students.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012
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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/16/2017 11:08:40 AM 
DelBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:


Again, you dismiss the number one factor in education and that is the parental support! And I'm willing to bet those poorer schools are closing the gap much better than the other schools you want to compare them to. To look at this situation believing that all schools, communities and student population is equal is misguided at best.

And "one districts accounting practices", how many districts are there? Coloring all the rural schools as being mismanagers of funds is akin to calling all cops corrupt because one broke the law and is in prison. I'm sure we could find one person in your field or one business in your field that's poorly managed or has a corrupt employee. Hell, look at our President.


1.I'm not dismissing anything.
I'd love to take your bet on how poorer schools are "closing the gap".
The poor performance in abbot districts is the reason why the state wants to change the funding formula.
The state keeps throwing more money into these districts,with no results.

2.I never made any reference to schools,communities etc. being equal.
What I'm saying is that throwing more money at these districts isn't working.

3.There are 31 Abbot districts.
There have been a number of articles about financial mismanagement in them.
The example I referenced was the worst.

4.Where did you come up with "rural" from any of my posts on this ?
Abbot districts are, with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions, all in urban areas.


Not everyone agrees with you that Abbott districts have been a failure. From a forum at Columbia University:

"David Sciarra, executive director of the Education Law Center in Newark, said New Jersey has made progress toward more equitable funding for low-income districts. The Abbott districts also have produced high quality preschools that are models for the nation; instituted supplemental programs for at-risk children in grades K-through-12; and assisted in the building or renovation of 200 inner-city schools.

Sciarra, whose organization serves as a legal watchdog for the Abbott districts, said the gap in state math test scores between fourth graders in Abbott districts and non-Abbott districts narrowed from 31 points in 1999 to 19 points in 2007, and on state reading tests from 22 points in 2001 to 15 points in 2007. Success in eighth grade was more modest, narrowing from 30 points in 2000 for math in 2000 to 26 points in 2007, and staying at 20 points for reading during the same years. The achievement gap has not narrowed in high schools, but New Jersey has the highest high school graduation rates in the nation for African American males, Sciarra said.

“The truth is, we have started to make some real progress,” Sciarra said. “When people ask, ‘what did Abbott do,’ I say, we still have a long way to go, but the answer is, a heck of a lot.”

I personally agree that no amount of money in the world is going to bring every poor kid in line with the academic achievement of their wealthier peers. That's an impossible goal. But equal funding is an obvious first step toward helping to close the gap. Time and time again it has been proven to provide a benefit to low-income students.


+1
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rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/16/2017 12:05:56 PM 
DelBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:


Again, you dismiss the number one factor in education and that is the parental support! And I'm willing to bet those poorer schools are closing the gap much better than the other schools you want to compare them to. To look at this situation believing that all schools, communities and student population is equal is misguided at best.

And "one districts accounting practices", how many districts are there? Coloring all the rural schools as being mismanagers of funds is akin to calling all cops corrupt because one broke the law and is in prison. I'm sure we could find one person in your field or one business in your field that's poorly managed or has a corrupt employee. Hell, look at our President.


1.I'm not dismissing anything.
I'd love to take your bet on how poorer schools are "closing the gap".
The poor performance in abbot districts is the reason why the state wants to change the funding formula.
The state keeps throwing more money into these districts,with no results.

2.I never made any reference to schools,communities etc. being equal.
What I'm saying is that throwing more money at these districts isn't working.

3.There are 31 Abbot districts.
There have been a number of articles about financial mismanagement in them.
The example I referenced was the worst.

4.Where did you come up with "rural" from any of my posts on this ?
Abbot districts are, with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions, all in urban areas.


Not everyone agrees with you that Abbott districts have been a failure. From a forum at Columbia University:

"David Sciarra, executive director of the Education Law Center in Newark, said New Jersey has made progress toward more equitable funding for low-income districts. The Abbott districts also have produced high quality preschools that are models for the nation; instituted supplemental programs for at-risk children in grades K-through-12; and assisted in the building or renovation of 200 inner-city schools.

Sciarra, whose organization serves as a legal watchdog for the Abbott districts, said the gap in state math test scores between fourth graders in Abbott districts and non-Abbott districts narrowed from 31 points in 1999 to 19 points in 2007, and on state reading tests from 22 points in 2001 to 15 points in 2007. Success in eighth grade was more modest, narrowing from 30 points in 2000 for math in 2000 to 26 points in 2007, and staying at 20 points for reading during the same years. The achievement gap has not narrowed in high schools, but New Jersey has the highest high school graduation rates in the nation for African American males, Sciarra said.

“The truth is, we have started to make some real progress,” Sciarra said. “When people ask, ‘what did Abbott do,’ I say, we still have a long way to go, but the answer is, a heck of a lot.”

I personally agree that no amount of money in the world is going to bring every poor kid in line with the academic achievement of their wealthier peers. That's an impossible goal. But equal funding is an obvious first step toward helping to close the gap. Time and time again it has been proven to provide a benefit to low-income students.


A few points:

1.Mr. Sciarra is the director of the "Legal Watchdog" for Abbott Districts.
On its face,that would appear to make him less then objective.

2.Giving him the benefit of the doubt,the scores he referenced go back to 2007.
What has happened since then ?

3.Mr. Sciarra admits that the "achievement gap" has not narrowed in high schools.
Abbott goes back to 1985.
That's a long time to show no improvement on the high school level.

4.Mr.Sciarra talks about high school graduation rates.
I don't know when this presentation was made,but the state's alternate path for students who can't graduate based on academic standards is/was more or less coming up with a presentation on "what I did on my summer vacation".
You could be almost illiterate and unable to add and subtract and still qualify to graduate using the alternate path.

4.Both republicans and democrats agree that the school funding system in N.J., which includes funding the Abbot districts, isn't working.
The question is,how to come up with some type of equitable system to distribute state money.

From what's been on the radio the past few days,it will be some type of "hybrid" solution.Most likely a per student amount based on enrollment each year,with a "kicker" of extra money for the poor (performance and economic) Abbott districts.




Last Edited: 2/16/2017 12:06:19 PM by rpbobcat
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Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,024

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/16/2017 12:06:32 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:


Again, you dismiss the number one factor in education and that is the parental support! And I'm willing to bet those poorer schools are closing the gap much better than the other schools you want to compare them to. To look at this situation believing that all schools, communities and student population is equal is misguided at best.

And "one districts accounting practices", how many districts are there? Coloring all the rural schools as being mismanagers of funds is akin to calling all cops corrupt because one broke the law and is in prison. I'm sure we could find one person in your field or one business in your field that's poorly managed or has a corrupt employee. Hell, look at our President.


1.I'm not dismissing anything.
I'd love to take your bet on how poorer schools are "closing the gap".
The poor performance in abbot districts is the reason why the state wants to change the funding formula.
The state keeps throwing more money into these districts,with no results.

2.I never made any reference to schools,communities etc. being equal.
What I'm saying is that throwing more money at these districts isn't working.

3.There are 31 Abbot districts.
There have been a number of articles about financial mismanagement in them.
The example I referenced was the worst.

4.Where did you come up with "rural" from any of my posts on this ?
Abbot districts are, with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions, all in urban areas.


Not everyone agrees with you that Abbott districts have been a failure. From a forum at Columbia University:

"David Sciarra, executive director of the Education Law Center in Newark, said New Jersey has made progress toward more equitable funding for low-income districts. The Abbott districts also have produced high quality preschools that are models for the nation; instituted supplemental programs for at-risk children in grades K-through-12; and assisted in the building or renovation of 200 inner-city schools.

Sciarra, whose organization serves as a legal watchdog for the Abbott districts, said the gap in state math test scores between fourth graders in Abbott districts and non-Abbott districts narrowed from 31 points in 1999 to 19 points in 2007, and on state reading tests from 22 points in 2001 to 15 points in 2007. Success in eighth grade was more modest, narrowing from 30 points in 2000 for math in 2000 to 26 points in 2007, and staying at 20 points for reading during the same years. The achievement gap has not narrowed in high schools, but New Jersey has the highest high school graduation rates in the nation for African American males, Sciarra said.

“The truth is, we have started to make some real progress,” Sciarra said. “When people ask, ‘what did Abbott do,’ I say, we still have a long way to go, but the answer is, a heck of a lot.”

I personally agree that no amount of money in the world is going to bring every poor kid in line with the academic achievement of their wealthier peers. That's an impossible goal. But equal funding is an obvious first step toward helping to close the gap. Time and time again it has been proven to provide a benefit to low-income students.


+1


Quality preschool/early childhood education may very well be at the top of the list of things that needs to be implemented. The key word though is quality.
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rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/16/2017 12:42:25 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:


Quality preschool/early childhood education may very well be at the top of the list of things that needs to be implemented. The key word though is quality.



My question is,what standard do you use to measure "quality" ?

I also think that what is lacking in education,1-8 and high school anyway,is "responsibility".
With tenure,a teacher,unlike pretty much any other profession,is not responsible for their "work product".
Whether students show any improvement or not,the teacher stays.
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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/16/2017 12:54:57 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:


Quality preschool/early childhood education may very well be at the top of the list of things that needs to be implemented. The key word though is quality.



My question is,what standard do you use to measure "quality" ?

I also think that what is lacking in education,1-8 and high school anyway,is "responsibility".
With tenure,a teacher,unlike pretty much any other profession,is not responsible for their "work product".
Whether students show any improvement or not,the teacher stays.




Here you go:

https://families.naeyc.org/accredited-article/10-naeyc-pr...
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rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/16/2017 2:01:02 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:


Quality preschool/early childhood education may very well be at the top of the list of things that needs to be implemented. The key word though is quality.



My question is,what standard do you use to measure "quality" ?

I also think that what is lacking in education,1-8 and high school anyway,is "responsibility".
With tenure,a teacher,unlike pretty much any other profession,is not responsible for their "work product".
Whether students show any improvement or not,the teacher stays.




Here you go:

https://families.naeyc.org/accredited-article/10-naeyc-pr...


In engineering,our programs have to be accredited by an independent group (ABET) every X number of years.
The number is based on how you did in your previous evaluation.

Do you know if NAEYC does the same thing by sending out people to their accredited facilities on a "regular" basis to "grade" them on meeting their requirements.

From reading the article it sounds like once you get the accreditation,you keep it.

Last Edited: 2/16/2017 2:03:21 PM by rpbobcat
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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,024

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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/16/2017 3:29:52 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:


Quality preschool/early childhood education may very well be at the top of the list of things that needs to be implemented. The key word though is quality.



My question is,what standard do you use to measure "quality" ?

I also think that what is lacking in education,1-8 and high school anyway,is "responsibility".
With tenure,a teacher,unlike pretty much any other profession,is not responsible for their "work product".
Whether students show any improvement or not,the teacher stays.




Here you go:

https://families.naeyc.org/accredited-article/10-naeyc-pr...


In engineering,our programs have to be accredited by an independent group (ABET) every X number of years.
The number is based on how you did in your previous evaluation.

Do you know if NAEYC does the same thing by sending out people to their accredited facilities on a "regular" basis to "grade" them on meeting their requirements.

From reading the article it sounds like once you get the accreditation,you keep it.



You have to send in a yearly report and they can come for an evaluation at any time. Every five years you come up for reaccreditation and go through the process again.
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rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/21/2017 6:45:44 AM 
There's an article in the Op-ed section of today's (2/21) The Record on Preschool (Preschool provides a boost,but benefits can fade fast).
Its written by Drew Bailey,Greg Duncan and Candice Odgers of the Wshington Post.

As I said,I'm a dinosaur,so I couldn't get it to link.

It talks about the benefits of preschool,but also points out that the gains it provides,can fade quickly.
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RSBobcat
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Location: Columbus, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/21/2017 10:39:04 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
There's an article in the Op-ed section of today's (2/21) The Record on Preschool (Preschool provides a boost,but benefits can fade fast).
Its written by Drew Bailey,Greg Duncan and Candice Odgers of the Wshington Post.

As I said,I'm a dinosaur,so I couldn't get it to link.

It talks about the benefits of preschool,but also points out that the gains it provides,can fade quickly.




Nothing like getting them ready with a good knife before they then go into a gunfight...

Point being - Preschool programs obviously have a benefit - even according to the source you reference. What we offer as a nation and/or states after that is not on the same level of commitment.

Last Edited: 2/21/2017 10:49:02 PM by RSBobcat

RS Bobcat

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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/22/2017 7:01:36 AM 
RSBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
There's an article in the Op-ed section of today's (2/21) The Record on Preschool (Preschool provides a boost,but benefits can fade fast).
Its written by Drew Bailey,Greg Duncan and Candice Odgers of the Wshington Post.

As I said,I'm a dinosaur,so I couldn't get it to link.

It talks about the benefits of preschool,but also points out that the gains it provides,can fade quickly.




Nothing like getting them ready with a good knife before they then go into a gunfight...

Point being - Preschool programs obviously have a benefit - even according to the source you reference. What we offer as a nation and/or states after that is not on the same level of commitment.


I never said good preschools don't have a benefit.

What the article points out is that the benefits don't seem to be long term.
It also seems that kids who don't attend preschool catch up to those who did quickly.

I think the most important issue raised in the article is,are the long term results worth the programs' costs ?
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DelBobcat
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/22/2017 5:05:55 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
RSBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
There's an article in the Op-ed section of today's (2/21) The Record on Preschool (Preschool provides a boost,but benefits can fade fast).
Its written by Drew Bailey,Greg Duncan and Candice Odgers of the Wshington Post.

As I said,I'm a dinosaur,so I couldn't get it to link.

It talks about the benefits of preschool,but also points out that the gains it provides,can fade quickly.




Nothing like getting them ready with a good knife before they then go into a gunfight...

Point being - Preschool programs obviously have a benefit - even according to the source you reference. What we offer as a nation and/or states after that is not on the same level of commitment.


I never said good preschools don't have a benefit.

What the article points out is that the benefits don't seem to be long term.
It also seems that kids who don't attend preschool catch up to those who did quickly.

I think the most important issue raised in the article is,are the long term results worth the programs' costs ?



I think MOST educational scholars agree that preschool is worth it but that it is only one tool in the bag. It's not the solution.

Think of it this way: If you are doing a triathlon and you train for months running and biking, but when you get to the swimming portion you realize you never learned how to swim. Well, it doesn't matter how fast you ran and biked in the first two legs, you're not going to finish the triathlon if you can't swim. So you can't teach a kid to run and ride a bike and then wonder why they can't swim.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/22/2017 5:13:06 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
RSBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
There's an article in the Op-ed section of today's (2/21) The Record on Preschool (Preschool provides a boost,but benefits can fade fast).
Its written by Drew Bailey,Greg Duncan and Candice Odgers of the Wshington Post.

As I said,I'm a dinosaur,so I couldn't get it to link.

It talks about the benefits of preschool,but also points out that the gains it provides,can fade quickly.




Nothing like getting them ready with a good knife before they then go into a gunfight...

Point being - Preschool programs obviously have a benefit - even according to the source you reference. What we offer as a nation and/or states after that is not on the same level of commitment.


I never said good preschools don't have a benefit.

What the article points out is that the benefits don't seem to be long term.
It also seems that kids who don't attend preschool catch up to those who did quickly.

I think the most important issue raised in the article is,are the long term results worth the programs' costs ?





Absolutely. For ever dollar spent on preschool eight dollars are saved later.

http://equitablegrowth.org/report/the-benefits-and-costs-... /
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,024

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/22/2017 5:14:19 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
RSBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
There's an article in the Op-ed section of today's (2/21) The Record on Preschool (Preschool provides a boost,but benefits can fade fast).
Its written by Drew Bailey,Greg Duncan and Candice Odgers of the Wshington Post.

As I said,I'm a dinosaur,so I couldn't get it to link.

It talks about the benefits of preschool,but also points out that the gains it provides,can fade quickly.




Nothing like getting them ready with a good knife before they then go into a gunfight...

Point being - Preschool programs obviously have a benefit - even according to the source you reference. What we offer as a nation and/or states after that is not on the same level of commitment.


I never said good preschools don't have a benefit.

What the article points out is that the benefits don't seem to be long term.
It also seems that kids who don't attend preschool catch up to those who did quickly.

I think the most important issue raised in the article is,are the long term results worth the programs' costs ?





Part of the great debate in our schools in Athens is that those kids who start behind stay behind hence the desire to go to as early as possible integration of our four distinct elementary schools.
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Robert Fox
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Member Since: 11/16/2004
Location: Knoxville, TN
Post Count: 2,039

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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/22/2017 6:23:50 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
RSBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
There's an article in the Op-ed section of today's (2/21) The Record on Preschool (Preschool provides a boost,but benefits can fade fast).
Its written by Drew Bailey,Greg Duncan and Candice Odgers of the Wshington Post.

As I said,I'm a dinosaur,so I couldn't get it to link.

It talks about the benefits of preschool,but also points out that the gains it provides,can fade quickly.




Nothing like getting them ready with a good knife before they then go into a gunfight...

Point being - Preschool programs obviously have a benefit - even according to the source you reference. What we offer as a nation and/or states after that is not on the same level of commitment.


I never said good preschools don't have a benefit.

What the article points out is that the benefits don't seem to be long term.
It also seems that kids who don't attend preschool catch up to those who did quickly.

I think the most important issue raised in the article is,are the long term results worth the programs' costs ?





Absolutely. For ever dollar spent on preschool eight dollars are saved later.

http://equitablegrowth.org/report/the-benefits-and-costs-... /


Are you actually presenting this as though it is a politically neutral organization?

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Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,024

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/22/2017 7:26:35 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
RSBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
There's an article in the Op-ed section of today's (2/21) The Record on Preschool (Preschool provides a boost,but benefits can fade fast).
Its written by Drew Bailey,Greg Duncan and Candice Odgers of the Wshington Post.

As I said,I'm a dinosaur,so I couldn't get it to link.

It talks about the benefits of preschool,but also points out that the gains it provides,can fade quickly.




Nothing like getting them ready with a good knife before they then go into a gunfight...

Point being - Preschool programs obviously have a benefit - even according to the source you reference. What we offer as a nation and/or states after that is not on the same level of commitment.


I never said good preschools don't have a benefit.

What the article points out is that the benefits don't seem to be long term.
It also seems that kids who don't attend preschool catch up to those who did quickly.

I think the most important issue raised in the article is,are the long term results worth the programs' costs ?





Absolutely. For ever dollar spent on preschool eight dollars are saved later.

http://equitablegrowth.org/report/the-benefits-and-costs-... /


Are you actually presenting this as though it is a politically neutral organization?



That thought hadn't entered my mind but if that's an issue for you, try this one:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272775...
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