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Topic:  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton

Topic:  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/26/2016 3:20:43 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Like anything there would need to be reforms, but countries all over the world can manage this, to say the US cannot is a head scratcher.

Healthcare and education, two areas where we fail to look towards others for ideas.


Other countries, particularly those in Europe, have a much more rigorous path to college. Many of the kids at OU would not get in to a university in Europe. They also have good paying jobs for those who do not qualify.



My nephew moved to Poland a few years ago.

Rigorous doesn't begin to describe the "weed out" process to get into "university".

From what he says,they start evaluating kids in grammar school.The high school you go to pretty much determines whether you even have a chance to go on from there.

As far as good paying jobs,that depends on the Country.
According to my nephew, a lot of Poles,those that aren't trying to get to the states,travel outside of Poland to work.

When he comes to visit,the issue of health care tends to come up.
Again,I can only speak to his comments on the medical system in Poland.
What he says,if you want to see a doctor in a timely manner,be prepared to pay cash "under the table".







Try getting into a doctor in this town in a timely manner.

And according to the WHO, the US ranks 37th in health care

Last Edited: 9/26/2016 3:21:49 PM by BillyTheCat
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Mike Johnson
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Member Since: 11/11/2004
Location: North Canton, OH
Post Count: 1,707

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/26/2016 3:29:03 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Like anything there would need to be reforms, but countries all over the world can manage this, to say the US cannot is a head scratcher.

Healthcare and education, two areas where we fail to look towards others for ideas.


Other countries, particularly those in Europe, have a much more rigorous path to college. Many of the kids at OU would not get in to a university in Europe. They also have good paying jobs for those who do not qualify.



My nephew moved to Poland a few years ago.

Rigorous doesn't begin to describe the "weed out" process to get into "university".

From what he says,they start evaluating kids in grammar school.The high school you go to pretty much determines whether you even have a chance to go on from there.

As far as good paying jobs,that depends on the Country.
According to my nephew, a lot of Poles,those that aren't trying to get to the states,travel outside of Poland to work.

When he comes to visit,the issue of health care tends to come up.
Again,I can only speak to his comments on the medical system in Poland.
What he says,if you want to see a doctor in a timely manner,be prepared to pay cash "under the table".


Re gaining admittance to university, similar approaches in Japan, Korea, Singapore. Puts tons of stress on students and their parents.

Last Edited: 9/26/2016 3:30:19 PM by Mike Johnson

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,511

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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/29/2016 6:51:17 AM 
New Jersey Public Colleges have one of the highest average tuition costs (over $13000.00 per year ) in the country.

In an attempt to reduce the cost of getting a degree, the State Legislature had a Study Commission make recommendations.The Study Commission's recommendations were released last week.

Based on the recommendations,the Democrats in the State Legislature held a press conference yesterday to announce the introduction of an 11 Bill package aimed at addressing this.

They include:

1.Allowing more high schools to offer college level classes.

2.Providing a "Reverse Transfer" where credits from a 4 year university could be used to get an Associates Degree from a Community College.

3.A 3+1 program that would allow a student to go to a Community College for three years and a four year school for one.

According to an article in today's The Record,the goal of this is to reduce the time,and cost of getting a degree.
The legislation also mandates more cooperation between two and four year schools.

One thing I found interesting is that none of the recommendations,at least those mentioned at the press conference, talk about looking into ways to actually lower tuition at these schools.





Last Edited: 9/29/2016 6:56:10 AM by rpbobcat
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 3,295

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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/29/2016 9:30:04 AM 
It seems to me that there's a pretty simple path to reducing the cost of college: eliminate programs that provide federal guarantees on student loans. When there's no risk to loans, lenders can give loans of any amount out, and colleges can raise their prices without any fear that the consumer will refuse to pay it.
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OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 562

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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/29/2016 12:04:55 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
It seems to me that there's a pretty simple path to reducing the cost of college: eliminate programs that provide federal guarantees on student loans. When there's no risk to loans, lenders can give loans of any amount out, and colleges can raise their prices without any fear that the consumer will refuse to pay it.


Is that you, Professor Vedder? Ugggh, that is such a disproven right wing strawman. There are limits both annually and max borrowing with federal student loans, and here's the key part: they haven't kept up with inflation (same applies for Pell Grants). So riddle me exactly how student loans grants are driving tuition increases well beyond the inflation rate. Tuition increases at 4-year universities are being driven well beyond the rate of inflation by factors. No argument here, but it's not being driven because students can borrow more money than they previously could.

The aggregate borrowing of an undergraduate today is capped at $23K. In 1970, it would have been 9K. Adjusted for inflation, that's $55,868. So, an undergraduate today can borrow, adjusted for inflation, less than 50% what his grandparents could in 1970. Today's limits compared to what his parents could borrow in the late 80s and early 90s are somewhat better but still don't keep up with inflation, hovering at around 75% depending on the exact year one chooses to compare. Whatever is driving tuition increases, it's not access to more student loan money.

http://www.finaid.org/loans/historicallimits.phtml

Now, I will grant you that there has been a large increase in the total amount of loans being taken out every year, but that is being driven by more people going to community colleges and for-profit trade schools, where you'll also find the abysmal default rates.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 3,295

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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/30/2016 9:59:14 AM 
OUPride wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
It seems to me that there's a pretty simple path to reducing the cost of college: eliminate programs that provide federal guarantees on student loans. When there's no risk to loans, lenders can give loans of any amount out, and colleges can raise their prices without any fear that the consumer will refuse to pay it.


Is that you, Professor Vedder? Ugggh, that is such a disproven right wing strawman. There are limits both annually and max borrowing with federal student loans, and here's the key part: they haven't kept up with inflation (same applies for Pell Grants). So riddle me exactly how student loans grants are driving tuition increases well beyond the inflation rate. Tuition increases at 4-year universities are being driven well beyond the rate of inflation by factors. No argument here, but it's not being driven because students can borrow more money than they previously could.

The aggregate borrowing of an undergraduate today is capped at $23K. In 1970, it would have been 9K. Adjusted for inflation, that's $55,868. So, an undergraduate today can borrow, adjusted for inflation, less than 50% what his grandparents could in 1970. Today's limits compared to what his parents could borrow in the late 80s and early 90s are somewhat better but still don't keep up with inflation, hovering at around 75% depending on the exact year one chooses to compare. Whatever is driving tuition increases, it's not access to more student loan money.

http://www.finaid.org/loans/historicallimits.phtml

Now, I will grant you that there has been a large increase in the total amount of loans being taken out every year, but that is being driven by more people going to community colleges and for-profit trade schools, where you'll also find the abysmal default rates.



That's really interesting. I'm clearly not an expert on the subject -- I never even took out student loans for myself -- it's just an argument I've heard here and there that seemed to make sense to me on its face. Thanks for the detail, definitely changes my thoughts on the subject.

What role do you think the "arms race" around amenities plays in college costs? It seems to me that many of the elite private universities, and a growing number of state schools, are increasing spending on amenities like student centers, gyms, gourmet food options for students, etc. Do you see that as a major driver of increased costs, or are those just easy luxuries to point to that don't actually account for a large part of costs?
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DelBobcat
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Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/30/2016 12:26:19 PM 
A lot of research has pointed to one major reason for increased costs: a reduction in state support. In most states, a reduction in state support explains the entire increase in costs. Private elite colleges have also gone up, but at the same time they offer more scholarships and financial aid than ever--so the actual cost of admission to private elite colleges has gone down for most income groups. The very wealthy, who pay full price, subsidize the rest.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the... /

In Ohio, 91.2% of the increase in tuition from 2000 to 2014 can be explained by state cuts.

Last Edited: 9/30/2016 12:27:54 PM by DelBobcat

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012
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OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 562

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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/30/2016 1:34:07 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
It seems to me that there's a pretty simple path to reducing the cost of college: eliminate programs that provide federal guarantees on student loans. When there's no risk to loans, lenders can give loans of any amount out, and colleges can raise their prices without any fear that the consumer will refuse to pay it.


Is that you, Professor Vedder? Ugggh, that is such a disproven right wing strawman. There are limits both annually and max borrowing with federal student loans, and here's the key part: they haven't kept up with inflation (same applies for Pell Grants). So riddle me exactly how student loans grants are driving tuition increases well beyond the inflation rate. Tuition increases at 4-year universities are being driven well beyond the rate of inflation by factors. No argument here, but it's not being driven because students can borrow more money than they previously could.

The aggregate borrowing of an undergraduate today is capped at $23K. In 1970, it would have been 9K. Adjusted for inflation, that's $55,868. So, an undergraduate today can borrow, adjusted for inflation, less than 50% what his grandparents could in 1970. Today's limits compared to what his parents could borrow in the late 80s and early 90s are somewhat better but still don't keep up with inflation, hovering at around 75% depending on the exact year one chooses to compare. Whatever is driving tuition increases, it's not access to more student loan money.

http://www.finaid.org/loans/historicallimits.phtml

Now, I will grant you that there has been a large increase in the total amount of loans being taken out every year, but that is being driven by more people going to community colleges and for-profit trade schools, where you'll also find the abysmal default rates.



That's really interesting. I'm clearly not an expert on the subject -- I never even took out student loans for myself -- it's just an argument I've heard here and there that seemed to make sense to me on its face. Thanks for the detail, definitely changes my thoughts on the subject.

What role do you think the "arms race" around amenities plays in college costs? It seems to me that many of the elite private universities, and a growing number of state schools, are increasing spending on amenities like student centers, gyms, gourmet food options for students, etc. Do you see that as a major driver of increased costs, or are those just easy luxuries to point to that don't actually account for a large part of costs?


I would say the three biggest factors are reduced state support, administrative bloat (how many VPs does OU have today versus thirty years ago and athletic subsidies (currently 10% of an in-state undergrad's tuition is siphoned off by the AD. Haven't given the amenities issue much thought, but I think it's a really good point.
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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,511

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/30/2016 1:57:32 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
It seems to me that there's a pretty simple path to reducing the cost of college: eliminate programs that provide federal guarantees on student loans. When there's no risk to loans, lenders can give loans of any amount out, and colleges can raise their prices without any fear that the consumer will refuse to pay it.


Is that you, Professor Vedder? Ugggh, that is such a disproven right wing strawman. There are limits both annually and max borrowing with federal student loans, and here's the key part: they haven't kept up with inflation (same applies for Pell Grants). So riddle me exactly how student loans grants are driving tuition increases well beyond the inflation rate. Tuition increases at 4-year universities are being driven well beyond the rate of inflation by factors. No argument here, but it's not being driven because students can borrow more money than they previously could.

The aggregate borrowing of an undergraduate today is capped at $23K. In 1970, it would have been 9K. Adjusted for inflation, that's $55,868. So, an undergraduate today can borrow, adjusted for inflation, less than 50% what his grandparents could in 1970. Today's limits compared to what his parents could borrow in the late 80s and early 90s are somewhat better but still don't keep up with inflation, hovering at around 75% depending on the exact year one chooses to compare. Whatever is driving tuition increases, it's not access to more student loan money.

http://www.finaid.org/loans/historicallimits.phtml

Now, I will grant you that there has been a large increase in the total amount of loans being taken out every year, but that is being driven by more people going to community colleges and for-profit trade schools, where you'll also find the abysmal default rates.



That's really interesting. I'm clearly not an expert on the subject -- I never even took out student loans for myself -- it's just an argument I've heard here and there that seemed to make sense to me on its face. Thanks for the detail, definitely changes my thoughts on the subject.

What role do you think the "arms race" around amenities plays in college costs? It seems to me that many of the elite private universities, and a growing number of state schools, are increasing spending on amenities like student centers, gyms, gourmet food options for students, etc. Do you see that as a major driver of increased costs, or are those just easy luxuries to point to that don't actually account for a large part of costs?


I would say the three biggest factors are reduced state support, administrative bloat (how many VPs does OU have today versus thirty years ago and athletic subsidies (currently 10% of an in-state undergrad's tuition is siphoned off by the AD. Haven't given the amenities issue much thought, but I think it's a really good point.


The amenities issue is a "Catch 22".

The last dorm that F.D.U. built was more like a hotel,including A/C,fridge and microwave in every room.I think the rooms may have also have had a sink,but I don't remember for sure.

Thing was,F.D.U.was only trying to keep up with what all the colleges they draw against had done already.

Filling older dorms, without these amenities is an issue,even if they cost less per semester.

Kids want the perks,cost doesn't seem to be a consideration.

Same thing,when they built a new Fitness Center,it had to compete with other schools in the area.






Last Edited: 9/30/2016 1:58:34 PM by rpbobcat
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