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Topic: RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Topic: RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

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Bcat2
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 11/30/2015 3:06:53 PM

MedinaCat wrote:

allen wrote:

Joe Paterno was a great coach that could not adapt. He stayed with the power running game and moved to the middle of the pack.

FWIW, Paterno's 1982 team was the first national championship team ever that passed for more yards than it rushed.

That said, Paterno, was loyal to his assistants, almost to a to a fault. He also was hesitant to play talented Freshman and Sophomores over Seniors. Many PSU fans believe highly touted recruits like Michael Robinson and Larry Johnson would have been difference makers had they been inserted in their early years. Sound familiar?

Further FWIW, Paterno with Blackledge passing to Warner, Garrity & others beat; Nebraska, Alabama, Notre Dame & Georgia. Blackledge was drafted behind Elway, but, ahead of Marino and Jim Kelly.

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

allen
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 11/30/2015 3:18:21 PM

It does sound familiar.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

Bcat2
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 11/30/2015 3:26:55 PM

allen wrote:

It does sound familiar.

Which, Paterno adapting to a passing game for a national championship? No, I know you meant the bit about not playing young talent. There is that being spread about coach Solich despite; White, Sayles, Basham, Ouellette, Provitt, I could go on.

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

L.C.
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 11/30/2015 4:49:50 PM

allen wrote:

Nebraska was getting the top recruits and winning championships under Osborne. Solich did not get enough time. Players were like celebrities in Lincoln, they could do anything they wanted. Oklahoma recruits well. It is about the coaches. Players will come, you have to sell the program. Here is an article on Nebraska's recruiting history. http://hailvarsity.com/news/college-football-recruiting/a... /

That's a very interesting article, thanks, and it pretty much confirms my general opinions and points. Essentially the article shows that Osborne was NOT getting top recruits, but won the championship anyway, and that after winning it the quality of his recruits increased. Over the time period covered his recruiting classes averaged 15, but his team's averaged 3, so he would have been a -12 on my ranking.

Note that -12 is a lot harder to achieve at 15 than at 90. Maybe I should compute the differential on a percentage basis instead of an ordinal basis?

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Bcat2
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 11/30/2015 4:57:22 PM

L.C. wrote:

allen wrote:

Oh, now your just showing off. ;).

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

allen
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 11/30/2015 8:13:34 PM

Top 15 recruiting is pretty darn good. Mike Rozier and the boys were pretty darn good. The article also says he was a good recruiter and recruiting tailed off with Solich and took a dive with pellini. You said it was hard to get people to Nebraska and that was false, just like it is not hard to get people to Ohio. These are just excuses.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 11/30/2015 8:22:02 PM

Bcat2 wrote:

allen wrote:

Ohio has great plusses and one plus that is a minus for recruiting purposes. We recruited a kid from Bedford, who ended up transferring to Toledo because he did not get admitted to our university. This guy is going to be a monster. His first name is Najee.
The coaches have to know how to sell the program, they have to be able to relate to the kids. That's what make Urban Meyer such a great recruiter. He is transformational and inspirational.
Our biggest problem is the optics. We get receivers drafted better than anyone in the MAC, but we don't recruit high profile quarterback. If I am a receiver, even though you have one of the best receivers coach in the nation I am not coming here because I don't believe I will get the ball and if the coaches tell me Maxwell will throw me the ball and I look at his profile and see he threw for 100 yards per game and had no offers I would not be convinced. If I looked at the play calling down the stretch, I would think the program is too conservative. We should have a top tier quarterback and receivers but we don't sell the program good enough. If someone came in my living room and bragged about TT and the programs accomplishments, I would look and see that he was third team All MAC one time and we won the MAC East once, I would think that that is they sky and that is not good enough.
If I were a coach, I would brag about our workouts. I would tell them, we recruited a guy name Lavon Brazill who only played one year of high school football, ran a 4.7, he was so unknown that our fans thought we signed a guy name Pete Brazill. Lavon left here running a low 4.4 and was drafted. Now we are in your home and you already run a 4.4 we have the coaches and quarterbacks to get you the opportunity to play in the NFL. We also have a great school with great alumni that can help you prosper in corporate America as well. If we can take someone that is no stars four stars think about what we can do with you. We have to believe and be relentless in recruiting. We can't just out recruit Hocking, we have to out recruit the MAC. We should have stud corners coming in we recently had three defensive backs in the league. We have Wells going to the league and four leaving the program, but we don't believe we can get them. You tell them you can go to Illinois or Iowa to compete or come here and shine a position is available if you can win it, you are more highly touted than the other db's we sent to the league, if you listen and work hard you should go higher. We sign two CB's that have to red shirt due to size. We have to get better at recruiting. We have a coach that coached in a National championship was on the cover of sports illustrated as a player, he should be the King of MAC. He has to think that way. I know some will be offended but I am telling the truth. We also need to get younger fans on board, we have some of the nerdiest post. If I were a recruit, I would go to the fan board and if I saw TOS to TOLEDO and TOS to etc and all the nerdy jokes I might be a little taken back. If I saw us bragging about being 3-2 against winning teams and 2-12 against teams with winning records in conference. I would not pick us over NIU, or Toledo. Kids want to win, period. We need to get more energized on this site about football. This is my opinion. I think we do an ok job recruiting, I think we need to do better.

Why do you suppose the really good coaches at Ohio, like the WR coach you refer to, who have coached in the "football factories" decided to settle "in" not "for" Athens? I have little doubt it is because they have had their fill of "every" fan "knowing" "we need to do better." These good coaches at Ohio get to recruit beyond the 4.4. They get to recruit young men like Crutch, Carpenter, Kristoff, Brazill, Carrie, Wells, Sayles, Laseak that they themselves determine are men they wish to work with over four/five years. You think "we" need to do better. A lot of us are just fine, thank you. I think "the coaches" not "we" need to continue finding their Smiths, Reids, Balls, Belacks, Copes if they are the most likely to bust their butts for years as an athlete and not be a waste of time as a student. Again, it is about who "they" feel is the best fit and want to work with for those many years. Remember, these coaches are not trying to be one and done. The Crutch, Jovon, A.J., Provitt, Poling, Patterson and Carpenter types are fine. Thank you.

Because, by gosh, our coaches are perfect and exemplary in every way.

The mere fact that, 11 years in, they can't MACC and throw up an absolutely stunning three game crash is not relevant.

These are deities we're talking about here.

You go, Bcat2.

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L.C.
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 11/30/2015 8:37:51 PM

In the interest of seeing how stable the numbers remain for a given coach over time, since I had that data for old year for Nebraska, I went ahead and computed the yearly numbers for several Nebraska Coaches:
Osborne 93-97: +20,+15,+13,+10,+10, average +13.6
Solich 98-2003:+1,+10,+12,-21,-9 average +.6
Calahan 04-07: -53,-1,+0,-44 average -24.5
Pelini 09-14: -11,+15,-5,-0,-4,-20,-5 average -5
Riley 15: -19

Interestingly the numbers are pretty stable for Osborne, Solich and Pelini, but Calahan has two really bad years out of 4. The numbers for Solich are particularly interesting as he pretty much picked right up where Osborne left off, until McBride (Osborne's long time defensive coordinator) retired in 2002. 2003, with Pelini as defensive coordinator, was better, but still not back to positive.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 11/30/2015 8:38:04 PM

Heard Jim Rome comment on Richt this morning. He said he's a great guy, a great recruiter, and a good, but not great, coach. And, so, Rome was fine with his firing because he wasn't achieving.

But at Ohio you can stay forever.

Rome made a very specific point of saying that if Richt hadn't won a conference title in 15 years, it wasn't going to happen in 50.

Look, I was as avid a Solich fan as anyone. Book it. And, I don't want our staff held to OSU type standards. But 11 years in, you have to be able to get the msg.

We're now in a territory in which it's not Coach's fault of no MACC. It's the fault of those who want to keep things as they are. (If you're boss treats you badly year after year, at some point the prob isnt' your boss; it's you. He ain't gonna change..you gotta.)

L.C.
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 11/30/2015 8:44:46 PM

allen wrote:

I guess it's a matter of perspective. Top 15 recruiting is good if you want to be a second ten team, but Nebraska fans expect national championships, and that's not going to happen very often with a #15-28 recruiting class unless you have a very special coach like Osborne. I think Nebraska can probably continue to land recruiting classes in the 20-25 range, and they will continue to have good teams, and will frequently be in the Top 20. Is that "pretty darn good"? Some would think so, but other would say it is "unacceptable!"

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

allen
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 11/30/2015 9:34:59 PM

Oklahoma gets recruits and it is just as boring as Lincoln. Penn State got top ten recruiting classes and it is basically in the sticks. The players love Nebraska because they are the biggest thing in Lincoln. We have good players and they have a lot of heart, we just have to close the deal on the big guys. Please, no more tricks with the nonqualifiers that never visited our campus on signing day. If you as a coach can't sell get a O or D coordinator that can sell. Solich and his staff identify talent well, they just can't close on the big fish. This years class, the average recruit has one or two D1A offers, some have no offers. The fans wanted to see more early signees and that's what we got. They may not be the most talented, but they committed early.

Last Edited: 11/30/2015 9:35:21 PM by allen

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

cc-cat
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 11/30/2015 11:25:31 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Look, I was as avid a Solich fan as anyone. Book it. And, I don't want our staff held to OSU type standards. But 11 years in, you have to be able to get the msg.

Why don't you get the message? Unless you want to cash in your black seats and fork over $1.5 million, there is ZERO chance Solich is let go after this season. Doesn't matter if you like it or not. Schaus doesn't really care what you/Allen, I or anyone else on this board thinks. There is no rumbling amongst the fans, no social media campaign to get rid of Solich, no big boosters in the ADs ear (the only voices he actually would take to heart). Only a few fanatic posters on a fan board. Additionally, with one year left on the current Solich deal, we are not going to get a new coordinator to come in and change things up in a year.

You don't like it. We get it. Continue to be upset. Doesn't matter. Continue to feel that anyone that says it isn't going to happen and/or shouldn't happen are fans that "just don't get it" and/or "are satisfied with mediocrity" - both blanket statements are incorrect...but hey, if it makes you feel better spout on.

You often talk of running the program as a business. Schaus is making a business decision. It is a smart business decision. If you have an issue - take it up with Schaus - in fact, you should be calling for HIS head. If after 11 years HE can't get the message, it is an indication HE is the wrong man for the job. So give him a shout and knock yourself out.

RSBobcat
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 11/30/2015 11:44:00 PM

cc-cat wrote:

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Look, I was as avid a Solich fan as anyone. Book it. And, I don't want our staff held to OSU type standards. But 11 years in, you have to be able to get the msg.

I'm starting to wonder if Monroe has a ceremonial boa he puts on before logging in to BA..........

RS Bobcat

Robert Fox
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 12/1/2015 8:27:57 AM

cc-cat wrote:

Here! Here!

The best I can tell, Monroe, you have a coalition of about 6 on this site. As head coach of your cause, it may be time to look in the mirror. You post your message endlessly, but it's always the same old message (MUTM). It's time to get creative. See the entire field. Learn a new approach. How about a two-messenger set? Keep the Solich-Lovers guessing.

You're not getting the results yet you keep hammering the same message over and over. You know, trying the same strategy and getting the same result is the definition... well, you know the rest.

Seriously. It's time to consider your position as the leader of this cause. You're not getting it done. Maybe it's time to pass the role on to a brash young leader who can excite the fan base--some who is not so horribly conservative with tactics. Someone who understands and will utilize all the new media. Do you even realize you could be tweeting your message as well? I have to believe a new young leader would be all over that.

As a committed fan base, we've all got to realize that Monroe has been great. We've all loved him. By all accounts, he's a great guy. But this is a business decision. We've got to cut bait and move on. Get some fresh blood who can get this movement rolling again. We were so close back when we finally MACC"d and Solich blew it in the 2nd half. But what has Monroe done since then? We've still got Solich.

If you don't agree with me, then you simply don't get it.

Last Edited: 12/1/2015 8:49:51 AM by Robert Fox

OhioCatFan
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 12/1/2015 9:45:45 AM

Robert Fox wrote:

+1 :-) Boy do I love satire!

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Bcat2
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 12/1/2015 10:18:55 AM

OhioCatFan wrote:

Robert Fox wrote:

+1 :-) Boy do I love satire!

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

L.C.
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 12/1/2015 10:39:23 AM

Bcat2 wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

Robert Fox wrote:

+1 :-) Boy do I love satire!

Now that's the funniest thing I've read in a long time. I have to go +3.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

allen
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 12/1/2015 10:47:15 AM

Should Frank Solich have to meet standards to keep his job? Does he have emeritus status? I think Solich has done enough to finish his contract, I don't think we are where we want to be. I think Solich needs to show us he can win a MAC championship. He has to show us the program is moving towards that. Some of you scare me, I believe if we went 2-10 next year (God forbid), you would be against change. I would say to you that you may not be living in reality. MAC football is a competition and we need to act like it. You don't aim to finish 5th or 6th, you aim to win.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

Bcat2
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 12/1/2015 10:58:29 AM

allen wrote:

allen, you might have missed it, but, this season Ohio went from 6-6 to 8-4 and finished with scoreboard on NIU. The trend is not toward 2-10, but, toward more improvement. Returning are very good players on both lines, at WR, LB, RB and QB. You are the one stuck in a rut. I believe that if they went 10-2, next year you would still be crying for change.

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

allen
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 12/1/2015 11:07:22 AM

You may have not read my post, I think Solich should continue coaching the Cats and if he shows we are on the up and up, we should extend him. I am asking does he have a lifetime position here or not?

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

Old Man
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 12/1/2015 11:21:09 AM

L.C. wrote:

Bcat2 wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

Robert Fox wrote:

+1 :-) Boy do I love satire!

Now that's the funniest thing I've read in a long time. I have to go +3.

That was HYSTERICAL!!! +4.

"Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." ~ William F. Buckley

Mike Johnson
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 12/1/2015 11:39:03 AM

Robert Fox wrote:

cc-cat wrote:

Hmmm...Does this mean that Monroe should fire himself?

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

Old Man
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 12/1/2015 11:45:16 AM

allen wrote:

Now that's a helluva point! Let's extend that - every AD at every school should set a minimum standard for every coach of a "revenue positive" sport: Any coach in ANY conference who has seldom so much as sniffed at, much less won, a conference championship in the last 10 years and/or whose W/L record has been at all inconsistent from year to year should be fired. Period.

Forget the size of the school. Forget the size of the AD's budget. Forget the amount of support from the fans and alums. (So what if the venue is rarely - if ever - sold out? That, too, is the fault of the coach and his crappy W/L record.) And forget the fact that athletics isn't the primary focus of an academic institution anyway. The bottom line is RESULTS!

There's no excuse - NO EXCUSE - for "failure to achieve" our expectations.

/sarcasm

Judas Priest.

Last Edited: 12/1/2015 11:47:00 AM by Old Man

"Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." ~ William F. Buckley

L.C.
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 12/1/2015 11:57:25 AM

allen wrote:

Of course Solich needs to meet standards to keep his job. If Ohio had had a losing season this year, desire to fire him would have been understandable. Last year was a rebuilding year, and we all knew that going in, so 6-6 was not bad. This year was not a rebuilding year, so 6-6 would have been bad, and worse would have been cause for serious discussion. With a bowl win Ohio will be 9-4, exactly the average of the predictions by BA prognosticators, so I don't think there is any way you can label this season as bad.

Last year I said I thought Ohio could win the MAC in 2016 or 2017, and they had an outside chance this year, but that they would need a little luck to do it. By that I meant that BG was going to need to lose their games to the West, and Ohio would have to go 6-2 in MAC. I expected Ohio to beat Buffalo but lose to Marshall, but they reversed that, and BG was better than I expected, and beat everyone but Toledo, leaving Ohio two games back.

Ohio had a good year this year, and they appear to be on track to have great years the next two years. Turning around your post, some of you scare me. I believe that even when Ohio goes 11-1 or 10-2 next year, some of you will still be calling for change. It's a sad day when some people would rather be "right" than have their team win, but it happens sometimes.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Bobcatbob
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RE: Coaching performance versus Recruiting

Posted: 12/1/2015 11:58:21 AM

Old Man wrote:

L.C. wrote:

Bcat2 wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

Robert Fox wrote:

+1 :-) Boy do I love satire!

Now that's the funniest thing I've read in a long time. I have to go +3.

That was HYSTERICAL!!! +4.

Yepper. But, honestly, quoting Jim Rome as a knowledgeable source was the tell. Now we understand the motivation behind the enigma that is Monroe.

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