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Topic: RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Topic: RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

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Chicken George
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/4/2015 11:17:14 PM

I was always luke-warm on JC. Take him or leave him--didn't care much either way. Once he chose to leave I was fine with SP as well--once again luke-warm. JC a little too smug for me, SP comes off as a little too happy-go-lucky. JC was a low risk/moderate reward type guy IMO. Probably lots of winning season, probably not a ton of post season runs. SP seemed like a high risk/high reward guy--higher volitility. JC the safer/low risk investment with not as high an upside. SP's gonna give you some really crap years mixed in with hopefully some banner years. If you like safer investments, my guess is you'd prefer JC. If you're a high risk/high reward guy and can swallow some really bad years thrown in the mix--you go with SP. Last year was a prime example. You never felt the team was going anywhere, or had much upside--but he squeezed 25 wins out of them. I think that's just what JC does.

Long term, though the risk is higher, I like my chances with SP. Short term however, I'm pretty sure JC would've squeeved more wins out of this team than SP did. How many I'm not sure, but more than what we have now.

OhioCatFan
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 12:41:13 AM

Agree 100 percent CG with your analysis. And, like you, I'm an SP man. I'll take the low years for what I expect to be some real banner years in the not too distant future.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

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Casper71
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 12:41:59 AM

Uh, I think it starts with leadership both from the bench and on the court. Once things went south, I really think that the inmates began running the asylum. I've said it before, early on SP said there were parts there to have a good team. He just could not lead them to get it together and the players seemed to have lost any desire to get it together as the season went on. My feeling is that after an ok non con portion of the season things went south quickly and turned into an epic failure all around. I can take a season like that once in a while but I really hope things turn around quickly. If they don't we will all pine for the good old days with TOS and/or JC. Never thought that would be the case!

catfan28
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 9:09:15 AM

If you look at Saul Phillip's record as a head coach, he has some bad years in there. 11-18 (year after an NCAA appearance), 14-15, 16-13, 17-4. Then his other 3 years have 24+ wins and postseason appearances. He appears to be a "high variance" coach. If the right guys are there, he's gotten everything to click. But the rebuilding years have gotten rough.

I'm hoping for more of his 26-6 type years and not many of those 11-18 ones. We'll see.

bobcat28
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 9:37:34 AM

JSF wrote:

Ruck mentioned Ryan Taylor's regression. I blame the seniors for a big part of that. I've heard way too much about their negativity to think it hasn't rubbed off. We need to get them out ASAP.

Seems to be a recurring theme. 2013 FB with TT & company, 2013 BB with Ivo & company, and now this year?

OUVan
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 9:44:51 AM

catfan28 wrote:

I don't think that's what I see. I see it as a coach taking over a team loaded with Senior talent (5 Seniors, 4 starters) and riding the wave built by his predecessor and then the steady build after that group left. I don't see it as a variance as much as I do a steady climb by building the program with his players.

OUVan
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 10:31:35 AM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

I think in most of our MAC games this year, we were outmanned talent and ability wise at three, four and sometimes five positions on the floor. Losing so many recruits due to coaching changes within the past few years has been a big reason for this.

This board vastly overrates our talent IMO.

I think there's more physical talent than you give us credit for. It's just that we don't put our guys in a position to harness it. The obvious examples are where Mo and Tony touch the ball but it also applies to Laster and RT. Our lack of talent is mostly between the ears. We seriously are lacking in on the court leadership. We had it last year. Just watch the way our women play vs the men. They aren't physically overwhelming the opponent. They are playing good smart fundamental basketball. The difference between the two teams is stark and striking. My guess is that if Simmons next year is as good as we hope we will be raving about the improvements that Laster, Taylor and Harley have made in their games over the course of just one year. Keeping my fingers crossed that someone steps up and takes this team by the balls and demands that they follow his lead. And unlike this year where the team followed one player's lead, let's hope it's the lead that guys like Cooper, Offut and Kellogg set.

BobcatSports
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 12:36:15 PM

As far back as the Alcorn State game I questioned this team's "desire". We got beat back down the floor after we scored for easy Alcorn St scores on multiple occasions in the first half alone. We weren't exactly running Alcorn out of the Convo at the time either.

I've questioned this "desire" ever since. Yea there are talent issues, attitude issues, recruits baling, the bizarro Chandler Thomas situation , low BBall IQ, etc., etc. but this team just struck me through-out that it just wouldn't accept/acknowledge what would be required in "bringing it" game after game, night after night.

The magnitude of the regression to where we are not even competitive is astounding.

Steve
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 1:07:41 PM

Last year's seniors played like they had a point to prove, that they were more than complementary guys to D.J., Walt, Reggie, etc. Ric seemed ready for a big season and Nick, Wilkins and Smith (until he left) made big strides in their games. (Too bad T.J's knees were a mess). I have no clue what the inner workings of this team are, but that hasn't shown up on the court.

Jeff McKinney
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 1:44:10 PM

I notice that so far, only 4 out of 31 respondents have blamed the coaching staff. To me, that's good news. Shows we've got some reasonable people here for the most part.

I don't blame the coaching staff for this bad record this season. Like others have pointed out, it's a perfect storm of circumstances. The strength of this staff IMO is building a program with sharp recruiting and long term investment in guys. This staff isn't oriented to doing whatever to squeeze out a few wins with a roster where most of the guys don't fit this approach. I don't see this staff as being oriented toward quick fixes or emphasizing the short term over the long term. At BGSU, it's different. IMO, without talking to anyone there, I figure that Coach Jans and his staff are more focused on short term results and then they will get out of Dodge as quickly as possible...so they'll recruit differently than Ohio. Jans brought in a few jucos with him...he has a juco background. Those guys have immediately played well for him. They are a lot better than Ohio this season, but in the long run I think Saul's approach is healthier. It will take three or four seasons to really see this in retrospect.

Another part of this perfect storm #greatrecessionof2015 is that the MAC is tougher and deeper than it has been for years. Every game has been tough this year except our road game at Ball State. Most of the teams in this league are very good this season. So it's been harder for this group to win many games.

Jeff McKinney
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 2:02:26 PM

Just read over the posts on this thread again. Pretty good stuff here.

Like others have noted, I don't think we've seen much of players just flat out quitting on the court, but when adversity hits, you can see the lack of confidence and intensity. And here's something else...when a team is behind by 13 with 30 seconds to go, I don't like to see guys smirking and celebrating after hitting a meaningless three.

Having said that, there were some instances of quitting and playing playground hoops vs. Buffalo in the second half. The ESPN3 announcers commented on it several times, and said it was an affront to the integrity of the game.

Guess one could say the coaching staff should have been able to avoid this, but it may have led to a major shake up. Guess this staff just weighed out whether to ride out this BS for this season and go out quietly and point toward next year, or crack the whip and maybe have guys quitting mid season, which might not be in the best long term interests of the program. I'm sure Saul turns this stuff over in his mind all the time.

I talked to a retired very successful HS football and baseball coach about this. He said that even for good coaching staffs, there are occasional seasons where down the stretch guys mail it in. Happens at all levels. Just gotta avoid letting it become habitual. Bounce back quickly.

Will be interesting to see if this group can find a way to win a couple more here at the end of the season.

OU_Country
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 2:03:58 PM

Jeff, your point about the depth of the league is a good one, and one I hadn't previously considered.

OhioCatFan
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 2:54:41 PM

catfan28 wrote:

Go back and look at Jim Snyder's year-by-year records. He, also, was a "high variance" coach. If SP gives us years like the better ones of the JS era, I, for one, can live with that. Elite 8 here we come! ;-)

D.A.
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 3:45:28 PM

If I could really discern our present coach's system from what I have seen, I could choose between the three, but as I can't, I didn't vote. Hopefully next year our system will be more apparent.

The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

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UpSan Bobcat
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 4:08:59 PM

Definitely, the MAC is as good as it's been for a long time, and that doesn't help. I think talent surely is lacking compared to the rest of the league. Then when things starting going a little bit bad, there was a snowball effect.

FearLeon
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 4:11:40 PM

Absolutely no senior leadership and major regression from the freshman guards. That is a recipe for disaster. Sounds like in-fighting as well from those with better knowledge of the situation. Just ready for it to be over and move on....but still hoping for a #MarchMiracle

Last Edited: 3/5/2015 4:14:01 PM by FearLeon

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bobcatsquared
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 8:47:46 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

I notice that so far, only 4 out of 31 respondents have blamed the coaching staff. To me, that's good news. Shows we've got some reasonable people here for the most part.

So, Jeff, those four people who blamed the coaching staff disagree with you and are therefore unreasonable? I'm not one of those as I have faith that Saul will turn things around in a couple of years. However, I can understand how some might not be happy with what they've seen from the coaching staff.

There are some posters on here who believe anyone with a different opinion to be "unreasonable" or lacking in "BBIQ". Never expected you to be one of those. Since I don't blame the coaching staff I guess I'm one of the "reasonable people here."

Campus Flow
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 10:01:31 PM

catfan28 wrote:

You would think he could keep the fridge stockpiled in Athens. To do otherwise would be rude.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
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2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
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bornacatfan
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 10:39:37 PM

bobcatsquared wrote:

There are some posters on here who believe anyone with a different opinion to be "unreasonable" or lacking in "BBIQ". Never expected you to be one of those. Since I don't blame the coaching staff I guess I'm one of the "reasonable people here."

You sure those folk you are alluding to ever believed dissenting opinions are bad? There are opinions that are outlandish enough to be outside the realm of what makes sense in this great game. Take for example a poster on our local board. I am not sure anyone would think this very serious poster is "reasonable" Offering an opinion that he is not should not be taken as admonishment of a differing opinion as much as it would be recognizing the flawed logic.

Quote:

Since big schools obviously have a much higher enrollment than smaller schools, should it be a rule that schools that have an enrollment over 2,000 must play at least 4 off the bench every night? The little guys usually don't have a lot of depth, so it's understandable that they may not play that many guys or might not have that many players at all. I know parents at the big schools get pretty mad when their kid doesn't see the floor. If you have like 12 guys on the team and a full JV roster, maybe there should be some set rule in place that the coach MUST use as many of them as possible during the game.And if he doesn't, the parents have full authority to call for his head at the next school board meeting. The coach from "Hoosiers" was about to get canned at the school board meeting, so we should start holding these guys more accountable to give all these players a chance at the big schools. Unless you want them all to transfer to Marquette or Liberty. Ball is in your court, coaches.

Not sure how many would think it is unreasonable to show dissent for this man's opinion. SOme folks lack logic, common sense or not much understanding of the game on and off the court in their posts. Responses to their opinion should be welcome. This board is one of the most genteel and polite places across the college landscape. The mods here are pretty good ad keep this place a pretty nice place to be.

Last Edited: 3/5/2015 10:41:38 PM by bornacatfan

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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bornacatfan
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 10:40:36 PM

I have not weighed in on this subject as I do not think affixing blame is productive here. JMHO is that what comes next is more important. Finding accountability is looking in the past. Better just to put it behind us and move forward with good habits and intentions.

Last Edited: 3/5/2015 10:50:28 PM by bornacatfan

Jeff McKinney
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 10:40:38 PM

bobcatsquared wrote:

Jeff McKinney wrote:

I notice that so far, only 4 out of 31 respondents have blamed the coaching staff. To me, that's good news. Shows we've got some reasonable people here for the most part.

Wow. Mea culpa. You make a great point and you're absolutely correct. It is arrogant and.narrow minded to assume that only those who agree with me are "reasonable."

cc-cat
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/5/2015 11:54:46 PM

So it is reasonable of me to agree you are arrogant and narrow minded. :)

OhioCatFan
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/6/2015 12:31:36 AM

Though I cast one of the Jeff-approved "reasonable" votes in this poll, I pride myself in being a contrarian so I'm perplexed by the having this imprimatur, which implies conformity to some accepted norm. Power to the people! ;-)

hazey
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/6/2015 8:26:53 AM

OUVan wrote:

catfan28 wrote:

NDSU fan here - was checking up on Ohio to see how the season goes and noticed how bad it was, and was looking for a message board to read any fan thoughts.

This is the most accurate assessment of Saul at NDSU. IMO he had no business getting the HC job as he was inexperienced in general, but those seniors fought for him. His first year 2 years with this junior-senior group was really an anamoly. NDSU was never good in bball, made the jump to D1, Tim Miles (Nebraskatball), great coach that gave NDSU a solid foundation, miraculously hits on a recruiting class that redshirted their freshman season(for their senior (RS) - tourney eligible run and proceeded to beat the regular team in practice every day). Miles leaves, Saul is gifted with the position, and did a great job managing those guys and brought them through their tourney run. 3 of those players I believe graduated with top 10 all time scoring honors at NDSU.

WHen they graduated, NDSU had no talent. There wasn't anything to sell to the 2-3 recruiting classes after that group because NDSU never did anything yet. Not liking the hire of Saul, he did a great job these years managing a D2 roster in D1 and building the program back up to those 20+ win seasons - but it did really take him about 2-3 years to get his players in place. His last 3 seasons here, and the team we beat Oklahoma with, was a legit team, and they looked like a WIsconsin type - long and athletic, really stingy defense, good shooters, slow tempo (which I hated but whatever), and NDSU was able to control tempo in every game really, win or lose.

JMHO on Saul - Great recruiter, great program seller. Really really good coach in terms of building a solid foundation and running a specific style. Not a great in game X's and O's coach. Not really a great coach at all in terms of disciplining kids, dealing with attitudes, etc. His recruiting will negate the majority of that, so I can see now why it might be a struggling year for him with guys he didn't recruit and may test him and he may not deal with it the best.

I think in a couple years you will see a specific type of culture with Saul. I turned out to really like him because the biggest thing he did with NDSU is gave them an identity and it stuck. Other teams hated playing us because of our style. Honestly, it isn't the prettiest to watch (we had athletes that could run people out of the gym but never played that way) the offense is very lethargic and slow and controlled, but you will love the defense he will bring when he gets guys that wants to play his way. It will keep you in every game and give you a chance against better teams as well.

I'm curious to see what Ohio will be like in 2-3 years - Saul will be able to recruit better talent there. His last 3 years at NDSU he brought some major talent in, we had a mix of snipers, athletic freaks, a true big man, and a long and rangy absolute stud wing. He recruited a wing to replace him which is now a rs freshman averaging 11.5 ppg and will be great, and our SR PG who will go down as the best ever at NDSU and lead our skeleton rebuilding team that was picked to finish 6th in the conference to a shared leage championship and POY honors. I know you don't care about NDSU but I don't think with Saul it will be a lot of rebuilding years, I think once the program is built up it will stay consistent. Phillips is more of a program builder than a natural head coach. He's not going to make chicken soup out of chicken chit, but he will solidify the program and give it an identity that will be consistent.

OUVan
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RE: Accountability: In your opinion, what is the biggest reason for this season's record?

Posted: 3/6/2015 9:17:25 AM

hazey wrote:

Thanks for the input and it's good to hear, particularly the part about the defense because frankly the defense this year has been atrocious. We've already started to notice his recruiting strategy and it has many of us pretty excited. As many have noted Saul gets mostly a pass this year although not from everybody.

Good luck with this weekend's Summit League Tournament. I'll be pulling for you guys.

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