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Topic: RE: OHIO Talent

Topic: RE: OHIO Talent

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Mark Lembright '85
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Location: Highland Heights, OH
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/1/2014 11:49:46 AM

I love this thread. Very cordial and interesting thread with learned opinions. All the comments are thought out and informative. Good stuff!

L.C.
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/1/2014 12:13:06 PM

Bcat2 wrote:

L.C. When you use the offers reported by the services you are counting on their information which is suspect. ...

I understand that. It means there is some inaccuracy, but it doesn't mean bias. Some Ohio recruits may overstate "interest" to be an offer, but so might a BG or EMU recruit. Basically I'm counting on the law of large numbers here. Over a 12 year period, each school will have about 250 recruits, so the chances that a factor like this is way different for one school than another should not be great.

The alternative is to try to use the actual ratings, but then you hit other problems. Probably 90-95% of MAC recruits are rated "2 Stars" by Scout. Does that mean every MAC schools recruiting classes are identical? Meanwhile, 80% of MAC recruits are unrated by ESPN, and most recruits at Rivals are rated 5.2. All those ratings are pretty meaningful when you get to P5 schools, where everyone is 3 stars and up, but at the MAC level, the recruiting rankings are almost totally meaningless. The offers, however, vary widely from one recruit to another, so it gives you an ability to discriminate between recruiting at one school from another.

cc cat/borna wrote:

....Just remember you need the players with the proper skill set to run a particular system. For example a power game often requires a good blocking back. One hasn't stood out. Also requires a power blocking line. ...

I think that all things considered, Frank was perfectly happy running the Power-I. Why did he switch? He wasn't able to get the players he needed. He felt that with the Pistol he'd be more able to attract the players that fit that offense. Has it worked? Offensive output is up considerably, and even in a bad year, like this year, the offense is putting up more yards than they did in 2006-2010, so I'd have to say, yes, it has worked, at least to a certain extent.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Monroe Slavin
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/1/2014 12:18:14 PM

Horrible stuff here because it's the usual abstract analysis and excuse making.

So many of our players are having great years--okay...if you haven't watched us play. About none of our guys except Bonstetter and Jovon are solid game after game after game. And you'll see that in the lack of All-MAC recognition.

Then, look at who we've beaten. Teams that are lousy.

Then, look at who who we've lost to and how we've lost. Against the good teams, game over after the first 6-10 minutes...and same against some of the lower or mid-level MAC teams.

That doesn't preclude next year being a log better...though I doubt that a LOT of guys will go from non-descript to stellar..and we'll have problems at d-line and d-back, at least.

But just a bit of ability to acknowledge the truth, a bit of ability to grasp what we really are would be nice.

Last Edited: 11/1/2014 12:28:45 PM by Monroe Slavin

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Mark Lembright '85
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/1/2014 2:00:23 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

All the Cleveland area alumni will understand my reference: Monroe, you are the "Tony Grossi" (a fellow Bobcat BTW) of Ohio football-Mr. Gloom and Doom. In the end you may very well be correct; time will indeed tell. Just given Ohio's history of just abysmal football, I choose not to be negative.

Monroe Slavin
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/1/2014 4:30:34 PM

I have nothing against being positive...Read my pre-season posts and my posts for volleyball and last year's hoops. It's the utter failure by some to leaven that hope with reality that irks. I'm a businessperson. If I ran a business with 'it's all sunshine' in spite of results that proved otherwise...

I watched a bit of CMU/EMU today. EMU--improving, didn't quit, dropped lots of passes. CMU--used pistol and went under center, with 1, 2, and 3 back sets under center. (Apparently, using more than one back is legal.)

i apologize to all for watching some of cmu/emu.

Last Edited: 11/1/2014 4:33:19 PM by Monroe Slavin

cc-cat
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/1/2014 5:14:02 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Horrible stuff here because it's the usual abstract analysis and excuse making.

You are right. It is the usual stuff. One or two (OCF) on the fringe feeling things aren't too bad and will work their way out fine. You often holding court on the other end, overly obsessed with the other fringe, and convinced you know better than not just the rest of the board, but the coaches. And then the rest of the board that all acknowledge we are down, but we have some young players that (if healthy and added to) will hopefully be difference-makers and get the program back to the trajectory it was on a few years back.

You are a businessman, so am I. In fact I conduct and analyze considerable research as part of my job. One of the first things I do is identify and throw out the fringe. It is just noise that rarely adds value to the process.

Bcat2
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/1/2014 5:25:39 PM

cc cat/borna wrote:

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Horrible stuff here because it's the usual abstract analysis and excuse making.

cc cat/borna. Fringe Membership Application

Permission to join the OCF fringe?

Approved__________ Denied___________

I await your determination of this pending application.

Bcat2

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

Bcat2
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/1/2014 5:28:57 PM

Bcat2 wrote:

cc cat/borna wrote:

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Horrible stuff here because it's the usual abstract analysis and excuse making.

cc cat/borna. Fringe Membership Application

Permission to join the OCF fringe?

Approved__________ Denied___________

I await your determination of this pending application.

Bcat2

OCF, are there t-shirts?

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

Mark Lembright '85
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/1/2014 7:00:23 PM

cc cat/borna wrote:

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Horrible stuff here because it's the usual abstract analysis and excuse making.

It is official. We have now morphed to the level of the avid Ohio State fan. As John Cooper, who was only 111-43 while at Ohio State, was no longer good enough for OSU and their fans, the same is true of Solich. Apparently a 6-6 record is no longer good enough at Ohio University. Not sure when that happened, but OK.

I wholeheartedly agree with JSF as to football now. I seriously do. It's only a matter of time before the P5s up the scholarship limit to 105, at which point Ohio and the MAC are screwed anyway. And football's popularity will eventually wane given the potential harm of concussions, fewer youth playing youth football (a phenomenon which actually is now occurring), etc.

Sorry to be so morose. Having my first Great Lakes Christmas Ale of the season (delicious as always!) and the lubrication is in full force and effect!

I just don't want to be "that guy" who demands to see a coach fired after a .500 season, that's all.

And Monroe, I only called you the Mr. Gloom & Doom when it comes to football. I know how positive you are as to Women's Volleyball, Men's B-Ball, etc. I wish all Ohio alumni had the same love and passion for all things Ohio that you do!

Last Edited: 11/1/2014 9:07:04 PM by Mark Lembright '85

OhioCatFan
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/1/2014 10:20:01 PM

bcat . . . your application is approved. Welcome to the Fringe Club. T-shirts will require a few more members in order to make them economically justifiable. We are all business men and women here, right? ;-)

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

L.C.
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/3/2014 8:27:05 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

... I'm a businessperson. If I ran a business with 'it's all sunshine' in spite of results that proved otherwise...

That leads to an interesting question. Should football be run like a business, or like something else? If like a business, like what sort of business?

Obviously management methods that work in one type of business don't necessarily apply to other types of business. For example, some businesses are sales oriented, while others are marketing oriented. Some are R&D oriented, while others are craft/quality driven. Still others are service oriented. Yet others are driven based on cost control and efficiency. Applying the wrong management style to any of these would be a sure disaster.

As an example, compare a venture capital startup to a business that focuses on quality and service. In a startup, things move fast, and you have to act fast. There is no time to wait. If something is wrong, you have to change it fast. By contrast, in the service/quality driven business, the driving engine is the craftsmen, and those can not be changed quickly, so you have to move slowly.

As another example, compare a sales oriented business to a cost driven business. In the sales oriented business, you need to pay top dollar, and provide exciting incentives to encourage and motivate your sales force. In a cost driven business, you cant afford that, and sales aren't going to change much anyway.

Turning to football, should college football be run like a business, and if so, what kind? On the one extreme, the NFL is a business, while at the other extreme, high school football is not. College is in between. There is a lot of money involved, and a lot of people, meaning that management skill is important, since the head coach is as much a manager as he is an actual coach. On the other hand, its not profitable, which makes it unlike a business. Also, it has limited retention of players - they come and go quite quickly, another thing that makes it less like a business. Finally, the main function is teaching and training, yet another difference from a business.

So, if it is a business, what type? The recruiting end of it is like a sales organization. That seems clear. What about the rest of the job? To me, it is like a craft, more than the other types of business. In football there really isn't anything new under the sun. The game changes over time, but changes slowly. Yes, there are different offensive schemes, like the pistol, or the "Air Raid", but in the end, you could still run a Single Wing, Wishbone, or Power I, and win games. The same is true of defenses. There are new ideas in defenses, but really, they are always variations of older ideas.

In the end, football comes down to the little things, the blocking, tackling, and playing fundamentally sound football. Thus, the most important thing is the craft, having the basics correct. You start with high school players who have a variety of backgrounds, and you educate them as to the proper techniques to use, and get them all playing together. You also teach them the proper ways to exercise, and the proper diet, and over time make them into better football players.

What does that tell me? That while it has some aspects of a business to it, the managing of people and expenses, it is more like a craft, or even and educational system than it is like a business.

Last Edited: 11/3/2014 8:30:33 PM by L.C.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Monroe Slavin
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/7/2014 12:40:09 AM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

First, we're running the wrong offense.

We should be running two back, heavy sets. Dbacks and line backers in MAC are lightweight. Put the power on 'em. Passing comes from that. Gotta run to win. (I know that my main man bcat2 agrees 100% with me.) It's so obvious; two back, heavy set.

Didja see the side article in SI quoting Pettine? He rightly says that you have to be able to run to get tough yards and/or yards in bad weather--so might as well start with that.

This ain't rocket science.

You all oughta be thinking what the monroe is drinkin': Pettine ball thrashes Bengals.

Did any of you hear the 'nouncer comment about Cinci should change/adjust at half time in re formations and plays and such. See thinking is part of football.

Also, before you point to a player as a pro prospect, take a look at the ability of the pros. Phil Taylor for Browns is a d-lineman who must way 330 or more. 4th quarter after a completed pass he turned from the d-line play and closed on the receiver with the speed of a d-back. Those guys in the NFL have unreal athletic ability and size.

L.C.
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/7/2014 7:40:55 AM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

...You all oughta be thinking what the monroe is drinkin': Pettine ball thrashes Bengals.

Did any of you hear the 'nouncer comment about Cinci should change/adjust at half time in re formations and plays and such. See thinking is part of football.

Also, before you point to a player as a pro prospect, take a look at the ability of the pros. Phil Taylor for Browns is a d-lineman who must way 330 or more. 4th quarter after a completed pass he turned from the d-line play and closed on the receiver with the speed of a d-back. Those guys in the NFL have unreal athletic ability and size.

Obviously, coaching at the NFL and College level are very different, which is why coaches that are good at one level are more often than not, not good at the other. College coaching is all about taking players from diverse high school programs and teaching them the techniques, practice methods, diet and work ethic they need to succeed. They also select appropriate systems, and teach them what keys to look at, and how to run the system, but the systems can't be overly complex because players are only there for 4 years, and usually only play regularly for 1-2 of those. On top of that, they have other responsibilities, too, such as recruiting on the one hand, and making sure their student athletes are attending and doing well in classes, plus they are very limited in when and how often the players can practice.

By contrast, in the NFL you have players that have already learned the techniques and work habits, and have proven what they can do. Also, they may be in the same system for many years. They also don't have the distractions that are related to dealing with student athletes. The coaches can focus on much more complex systems, since they don't have to work on the basics, and don't have some of the other distractions.

Last Edited: 11/7/2014 8:04:10 AM by L.C.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Monroe Slavin
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/7/2014 10:02:38 AM

?? Is that to say that strategy and the mental aspect are not involved?

Is this by way of defense of the current Ohio staff? Like them if you will. I feel differently now. But to not acknowledge that there are things this staff doesn't do well gets as close to factually incorrect as an opinion can get.

I gripe. So many think that I see 100% bad. It isn't that. For years I've been about a big a Solich guy as any. I see now a big rut and not much reason to think that we're going to be the 'it' MAC team in the next few years. I just think that WMU or BG or 'kron or Ball or some others will blow past us. It's happened and probably will happen again.

At this level, you don't get hugs for doing the basics well but bringing some jaw-dropping deficiencies.

Kinda sad that every time I (or other folks) point out stuff not done so well that there's a school of which has to respond with total denial and 100% praise. No credibility to me for those who do nothing but defend in the face of readily apparent deficiencies.

The Situation
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/7/2014 10:25:10 AM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

...

Kinda sad that every time I (or other folks) point out stuff not done so well that there's a school of which has to respond with total denial and 100% praise. No credibility to me for those who do nothing but defend in the face of readily apparent deficiencies.

August 30, 2014:

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Nobody has the Bobcats in the MACC game? I don't rule it OUt.

http://www.bobcatattack.com/messageboard/topic.asp?FromPa...

Is it just me, or do you hedge your bets to such an extreme that you can't actually turn a profit. It's like you're gambling to break even.

Monroe Slavin
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/7/2014 10:32:50 AM

Great point, situation. No one should re-visit their opinion in light of facts on the field, games played.

You may now return to your theoretical rating of all teams because that's what life is all about.

The Situation
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/7/2014 10:47:36 AM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Great point, situation. No one should re-visit their opinion in light of facts on the field, games played.

Hey I'm all about re-evaluating personal positions on contentious topics.

So long as we respect the record.

The record shows, as recently as August 30, 2014 YOU felt we had all the pieces and parts in place to make the MACC.

Any claim in your future rants that you've seen this "program collapse" coming since before August 30, 2014 is invalid.

Monroe Slavin wrote:

You may now return to your theoretical rating of all teams because that's what life is all about.

Ironically, a group in my office is about 45 minutes away from returning to another one of my theoretical rating systems that has been in place for over a year now.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/life_and_entertai...

Bcat2
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/7/2014 10:56:49 AM

Since this thread is about talent, I would ask anyone to look at the roster OL talent, add Fair and Pleasants. Now, has Ohio ever seen such talent? Do the LBs next. Dixon will field representative WRs. A.J., Brown, Irons and Williams have bright futures at RB. The athletes are in place at TE and DB. As the young OL gains experience and gets healthy this team just gets better and better. The tide is turning. JMHO

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

L.C.
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/7/2014 9:06:21 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

...But to not acknowledge that there are things this staff doesn't do well gets as close to factually incorrect as an opinion can get.
...

Just to be clear, I don't think this staff is perfect. I think there are areas where they can improve. I just think that you pick the wrong things to criticize them for. For example, you'll note that I never really argue with Casper or Paul when they wonder why recruiting improved so slowly. That's because I agree with them that, with the exception of the 2008 class, most of the early classes were unremarkable up until the 2013 class.

Nevertheless, the coaches have done a lot with what they had. Now, with back to back good classes in 2013 and 2014, they have some pretty solid (but still young) talent, and I look forward to seeing what they can do with it. So, yes, I agree with them that Solich isn't the recruiter than PJ Fleck is, but I think he makes up for it with solid coaching, plus loyalty to the school.

BTW, I apologize for the fact that I haven't had time to complete my recruiting analysis yet. I still plan on doing it, but am tremendously busy IRL lately.

Last Edited: 11/7/2014 9:07:16 PM by L.C.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Casper71
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RE: OHIO Talent

Posted: 11/9/2014 8:27:18 PM

Interesting article on the difference in approach between osu and msu in recruiting. bottom line is there is more than one way to end up successful. I know we aren't going to get a bunch of 4-5 star recruits. I also know that we can't find and develop enough NR and 2 star guys to go very far. So, it still seems like the best way for a MAC team to move up the ladder is to get all the 3 star guys you can and really develop them. Really a hybrid of what both osu and msu do. maybe that is what wmu is banking on!

http://www.cleveland.com/osu/index.ssf/2014/11/ohio_state...

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