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Topic: RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Topic: RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/1/2024 12:51:52 PM

bobcatsquared wrote:

Don't disagree, BLSS, but what are your reasons for thinking NFL coaching jobs are better than college jobs?

No oversight from the NCAA that serves the NCAAs interests, but not the coaches. And no need to recruit -- which is a massive, massive part of a college coach's job.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/1/2024 1:26:45 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

bobcatsquared wrote:

Don't disagree, BLSS, but what are your reasons for thinking NFL coaching jobs are better than college jobs?

No oversight from the NCAA that serves the NCAAs interests, but not the coaches. And no need to recruit -- which is a massive, massive part of a college coach's job.

Exactly, NCAA is a year-round recruiting situation anymore. Also the constant pressure of retaining your own players every year. You do not do any of that at the NFL level.

rpbobcat
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/1/2024 3:28:36 PM

BillyTheCat wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

bobcatsquared wrote:

Don't disagree, BLSS, but what are your reasons for thinking NFL coaching jobs are better than college jobs?

No oversight from the NCAA that serves the NCAAs interests, but not the coaches. And no need to recruit -- which is a massive, massive part of a college coach's job.

Exactly, NCAA is a year-round recruiting situation anymore. Also the constant pressure of retaining your own players every year. You do not do any of that at the NFL level.

Plus, the players are under contract.

That prevents them from saying "see ya" I'm off to .......".

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/1/2024 3:54:05 PM

rpbobcat wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

bobcatsquared wrote:

Don't disagree, BLSS, but what are your reasons for thinking NFL coaching jobs are better than college jobs?

No oversight from the NCAA that serves the NCAAs interests, but not the coaches. And no need to recruit -- which is a massive, massive part of a college coach's job.

Exactly, NCAA is a year-round recruiting situation anymore. Also the constant pressure of retaining your own players every year. You do not do any of that at the NFL level.

Plus, the players are under contract.

That prevents them from saying "see ya" I'm off to .......".

Yes, one of the benefits of acknowledging they're employees.

bobcatsquared
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/1/2024 5:38:01 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

bobcatsquared wrote:

Don't disagree, BLSS, but what are your reasons for thinking NFL coaching jobs are better than college jobs?

No oversight from the NCAA that serves the NCAAs interests, but not the coaches. And no need to recruit -- which is a massive, massive part of a college coach's job.

I shared my thoughts on this topic a few months ago. My thoughts have been, dating back many years before NIL/portal, that I would hate to be a college coach having to kiss a$$ of 17- and 18-year-old recruits. In other words, the recruiting process of prima donnas with over-inflated egos. This job description, as noted by others, is probably 10-fold that today with year-round recruiting and re-recruiting and dealing with NIL.

Therefore, coaching in the NFL is becoming more and more preferable than coaching in college.

Check out this old interview of Bobby Knight talking about John Wooden and recruiter Sam Gilbert. It makes me wonder how Knight would feel about the portal and NIL if he was coaching today. Probably no different than Saban?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ee9hMccdP8

GoCats105
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/15/2024 11:29:51 AM

Georgia State head coach Shawn Elliott has left the program two days into the start of spring practice to be the Tight Ends coach at South Carolina.

Not a coordinator. A TE coach.

https://sports.yahoo.com/georgia-state-coach-shawn-elliot...

The G5 is toast.

Deciduous Forest Cat
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/15/2024 11:59:28 AM

GoCats105 wrote:

meh. good for him. He'll be replaced. What is SC getting for all that money? The law of diminishing returns applies here. They can pay 10x as much for their assistant coaches, but how much does it move the needle for their program?

bobcatsquared
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/15/2024 1:19:05 PM

Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

The law of diminishing returns applies here. They can pay 10x as much for their assistant coaches, but how much does it move the needle for their program?

Along those lines . . . when will this college football/basketball arms race burst?

The U.S. experienced the dotcom bubble from the 1990s, plunging in 2002 and leading to a recession. This was followed shortly after by the housing bubble when house prices nearly doubled.

Not sure too many colleges can continue this arms race, on top of handing over an ever-increasing NIL dollars.

M.D.W.S.T
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/15/2024 4:22:27 PM

GoCats105 wrote:

He was previously the head coach for six games. Spent six years there under Spurrior previously before moving to Georgia State.

He's probably tired of playing this game at Georgia State with minimal payoff, might as well go make the same money and not have to deal with any of the nonsense. And at least if he's at this level if he does have to deal with the nonsense, he'll be better equipped.

Last Edited: 2/15/2024 4:24:20 PM by M.D.W.S.T

L.C.
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/15/2024 4:25:32 PM

bobcatsquared wrote:

Along those lines . . . when will this college football/basketball arms race burst?
...

Some believe that athletes should be made into employees. Others believe that if that happens, it will burst the bubble. It's unclear what those who want to see athletes become employees think will happen next. I'm inclined to believe that they simply believe that the system is too big to fail, and that the money will appear somehow to make it work. I don't believe that will happen, and I agree that while colleges may indeed be forced to make athletes into employees, it would lead to tectonic changes. A few possibilities for what those changes might be are:
1. Make all sports into club sports, each responsible for it's own finances
2. Spin off the money sports into minor-league pro teams, and convert the rest into club sports, and charge them rent to use existing facilities.
3. Go ahead pay the athletes, but withdraw the scholarships, and make them pay tuition and board.

Since it's never been done before, the whole situation reminds me of Bartholomew and the Ooblek.

Dr. Seuss wrote:

Won't look like rain, Won't look like snow. Won't look like fog, That's all we know. We just can't tell you anymore. We've never made oobleck before.

It certainly is true that this trend of head coaches quitting to become assistant coaches at bigger schools is something I don't recall seeing before. It's as if they believe that the only survivors of the coming mess will be the bigger, more powerful schools.

Last Edited: 2/15/2024 4:30:07 PM by L.C.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/16/2024 2:22:10 PM

L.C. wrote:

bobcatsquared wrote:

Along those lines . . . when will this college football/basketball arms race burst?
...

It definitely will lead to tectonic changes.

But I think people are thinking about "employment" in the wrong way, and make a baseline assumption that the only way money can change hands in an employment agreement is through hourly or salaried pay.

In my mind, "employment" in this context is going to be about carving up the existing pie in a way that gives athletes a share of the money. I don't think any party has any incentive to insist that the pie has to get bigger and schools expenses have to change. Everybody knows what the pie looks like.

Instead, I think what you end up with is a union that collectively bargains a revenue share. It'll look just like the NBA, but with much smaller numbers. The NBA salary cap is directly tied to a percentage of basketball revenue. The union will negotiate what share of revenue they get, and how that gets divided amongst its members. They'll also negotiate around things like time requirements, schedules, access to benefits, etc.

But I entirely expect that many members of this union will basically make nothing. Maybe some extra cash in their pocket -- two grand a semester or something -- but that the money will be allocated based on who contributed. Schools & sports that generate revenue will get a larger share, and schools like Ohio will get very little.

In other words, in the scheme of things all that will change is where the money flows. Not how much is spent. And the vast majority of college athletes will still receive 99% of their compensation through educational benefits alone, though there will no longer be restrictions on schools who have the ability to do so sharing revenue with the players that create value for them.

I also think you're right that some sports will become club sports as a result. But the driver of that will be the schools themselves, not some massive change in the cost of college athletics. Right now, schools spend way more on Men's Basketball and Football than anything else. That'll continue, and they'll funnel more money to the players in the interest of being competitive. The same arms race that's already in flight, but some of the money going to the programs that are the wisest investment.

colobobcat66
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/16/2024 5:01:27 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

L.C. wrote:

bobcatsquared wrote:

Along those lines . . . when will this college football/basketball arms race burst?
...

The thing that I think you are missing is the impact of title IX. I don�t think that that is going away anytime soon and I think it makes the college situation way dufferent than the employment market in most industries. Maybe I�m crazy but I think that even the NCAA in all their wisdom recognized that in their most recent proposal on college payments,etc.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/16/2024 6:04:28 PM

colobobcat66 wrote:

Title IX deals specifically with educational benefits. It's significant precisely because the NCAA insists that all "compensation" currently be considered educational.

Once these are employees, I think there's a clear case that compensation is not an educational benefit, and that paying men's basketball players more than women's basketball players will be no different than paying your men's coach more than you pay your women's coach.

Edit: there's actually existing case law where courts have ruled on Title IX as it relates to compensation. They've basically stated that the relevant policy is The Equal Pay Act of 1963 and the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which allows for different pay for different levels of skill, effort, or responsibility.

Last Edited: 2/16/2024 6:10:09 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

colobobcat66
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/16/2024 8:35:44 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

colobobcat66 wrote:

Title IX can be used for lots of things and I wouldn�t bet the farm on where it will be used in the upcoming environment . The NCAA throws in all sports being paid under their newest plan, not just revenue generating ones to make it fair. We�ll have to see what will end up

colobobcat66
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24 (NT)

Posted: 2/16/2024 9:00:27 PM

Last Edited: 2/16/2024 9:01:46 PM by colobobcat66

BillyTheCat
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/17/2024 10:27:46 AM

colobobcat66 wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

colobobcat66 wrote:

Agreed, but would like to add, any sport that charges admission is a "revenue" sport. And none of our programs are actually a profit driven sport, nor are most programs around the country. I also agree, that it is not going to be easy to just dismiss Title IX, primarily because federal dollars are at play at these institutions.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/17/2024 10:32:45 AM

FLSA requires all employees must be paid in an actual wage. For anyone to suggest we would not know what compensation would look like if athletes became "employees", well yes, we do, they would be employees and fall under federal and state laws as such, and would require being paid as such. Which, again, is great! I have ZERO problem with young people making a buck, but the problem is how do schools afford this? Because, as many national legal experts have noticed, this does NOT stop at the athletes, but these rulings would apply to the Marching 110, performing arts, etc.,

Pataskala
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/18/2024 6:52:44 PM

BillyTheCat wrote:

There's also the issue of ensuring that athletes, cheerleaders, band members, etc. don't run afoul of minimum wage laws (unless they get an exemption). When I was an attorney for the State, I had to fill out a time card every pay period showing my work hours and leave time. I was paid an hourly rate for the first 40 hours each week with comp time for hours worked after that. But what all would need to be counted for students? Time traveling to, participating in, and traveling back from an event? Practice time? Classroom time? Study rime (meeting grade requirements is part of maintaining scholarships and eligibility)? It could be a real mess.

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

M.D.W.S.T
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RE: Coaching Carousel 2023-24

Posted: 2/19/2024 10:04:12 AM

Pataskala wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

And who is tracking this? The 'student' athlete? Anyone who has ever played sports, or been a coach at any level, will tell you L-O-L

They're gonna have to hire a team of administrators just to track everyones hours.

Last Edited: 2/19/2024 10:04:58 AM by M.D.W.S.T

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