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Topic: RE: Stop it.

Topic: RE: Stop it.

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Casper71
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/15/2015 9:48:10 AM

The set is different...my question is who recruited #7? I think he is about the only guy that touched the ball. I guess it was his highlight video!

L.C.
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/15/2015 11:36:52 AM

Casper71 wrote:

The set is different...my question is who recruited #7? I think he is about the only guy that touched the ball. I guess it was his highlight video!

I don't know who he is, but no one recruited him. Now, the offensive guard, #79, was a four-star recruit for Oklahoma, and he's now their starting center.

Incidentally, Apopka left the single wing, and went to the spread. Here's some film of them a couple years later, where they won the 8A State Championship:
http://www.hudl.com/athlete/637727/highlights/27443383/v2

Last Edited: 5/15/2015 11:38:35 AM by L.C.

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Mike Johnson
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/15/2015 11:56:21 AM

Glad you watched the line blocking, including on one play seeing $60 leading downfield blocking.

During my varsity seasons, we went 23-5. A group that followed ours won 35 straight. That second group installed the screen passes that you see on the video, and yes they were equally effective.

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L.C.
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/15/2015 6:54:57 PM

Billy and Mike, would you critique the following and see if I have this right? I was reading up on the single wing, and it occurs to me that the short yardage formation that Ohio uses from the Pistol with 3 tight ends is very nearly a pure single wing formation, albeit with a balanced line. The set I am thinking of has a tight end on either side, and a third tight end in the backfield behind a guard or tackle, on the same side of the quarterback as the running back.

The position names get confusing, though. In the single wing, the deep back, who would be the passer, would called the "tailback", with the "fullback" beside him. In the single wing, the ball could be snapped to the "tailback" who could run the ball in a sweep, or up the middle, or pass it. Alternately it could be snapped to the "fullback", who "bucks" the line with a direct run.

Using single wing names for Ohio's players, and Ohio's formation, think of Vick as the "tailback", AJ as the "fullback", and say, Mangen as the "quarterback or blocking back". From this short yardage formation, we've seen snaps to Vick, who runs a sweep, or snaps to Vick who runs up the middle, or snaps to AJ who runs up the middle. All of these seem to me to be standard single wing plays. Thus, the direct snap to AJ was not a trick play at all, but was simply a core single wing run.

I guess what we need to see added to this short yardage formation would be the buck-lateral series. In that case, the snap would be to AJ, who would head towards the line, and had the option of handing the ball to the "quarterback" (i.e., the third tight end), who would then run an option play to the outside, with the option of pitching to Vick. ;) Then, if they master that, add in a Fullback spinner series, featuring AJ doing a 360. ;)

Last Edited: 5/15/2015 6:58:52 PM by L.C.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Mike Johnson
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/15/2015 10:11:32 PM

L.C. wrote:

Okay, L.C., this will be fun. To repeat, when we ran the single wing, we used a balanced line. Chief reason: to enhance play versatility. For example, with a balanced line, it strengthened the ability of a wing back lined up just outside the right end to run an inside reverse to his left. (Wingbacks tended to be smaller with excellent speed. Still, they had to be excellent blockers.)

In commenting on your scenario, it might add to clarity if we remember how holes were numbered. To the right of center they were 2,4,6. To the left 1,3,5.

Usually the quarterback was the 1 back, the fullback the 2 and the tailback the 3. For some reason we didn't call the wingback by any number.

On a simple fullback dive (22 Right) or a buck lateral play with the direct snap (7 yards)going to the fullback, he would start toward the 2 hole. On such a play, line blocking assignments would depend on the defense's alignment - usually either a nose guard with two inside linebackers opposite our offensive guards OR defensive tackles opposite our offensive guards or tackles and with a middle linebacker opposite the center.

Let's say the play is a dive (22) or a buck lateral with the fullback keeping the ball. Depending on the defensive alignment, the left guard would pull right and trap the defensive tackle. The center would blast straight ahead and so would the quarterback leading the fullback. OR if the defense is using a nose guard, the right guard and center might double-team the nose guard. Again the quarterback would lead the fullback through the 2 hole. (When we flopped the line, the same play would be run to the left and thus would be a 21.)

A frequently called short yardage play would be a 32 or 34 - reason: both the quarterback and fullback would be leading the tailback through the hole. (Monroe should savor that. :-))

Speed among linemen was a major plus. Lots of pulling and downfield blocking assignments. Our five starting interior offensive linemen ranged from 180 to 195 pounds with good to excellent speed. (Those sizes weren't undersized for the early 60s. We also were strong as beneficiaries of one of the state's first weightlifting programs.)

Does the foregoing paint a helpful "picture?"

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L.C.
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/15/2015 11:16:17 PM

The numbering system and blocking is very similar to what we ran from a Power-T, so that I understand. I also understand the 180lb offensive linemen since I was a 180lb offensive lineman. ;)

Now, let's turn to Ohio's pistol set with three tight ends, one of whom is lined up in the backfield. How does Ohio's set differ from a single wing set, and why can't Ohio run a full complement of single wing plays from that set? Of course the position names are "wrong", but the players Ohio has at the respective positions have more or less the right skills. Thinking in single wing terms, Vick would be the "tailback", or the 3 back, AJ would be the "fullback", or 2 back, and the tight end in the backfield would be the "quarterback or blocking back", or 1 back.

On a "22", the snap would be a direct snap to AJ, who would follow the tight end through a hole between center and right guard, with appropriate trap blocking, of course. On a 34, the snap would go to Vick, who would follow AJ and the third TE through a hole between right guard and right tackle. Isn't that how Ohio runs these plays?

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C Money
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/16/2015 8:13:48 AM

L.C. wrote:

How does Ohio's set differ from a single wing set, and why can't Ohio run a full complement of single wing plays from that set?

Blocking system. The single wing requires a lot of pulls and traps, something we don't do in the zone read system.

I would think another would be the illusion that 2 other backs could potentially take the handoff. In our 3 TE set, the TE in the backfield is almost exclusively a blocker, and when he isn't, he might go out for a pass, and the WR is always wide. So the LBs really only have to watch for two running options.

Let's say instead of 3 TEs, you went 2 TEs, Vick, Irons, AJ, and Papi/Daz/Walker (or even 1 TE, 1 WR, Vick, Irons, AJ, and Papi/Daz/Walker for an unbalanced look). I think that would be more akin to a single wing system.

It's hard to find good video of it because the term has been butchered by broadcasters to mean any set with a direct snap to a RB, but a true "wildcat" offense is similar to the single wing, but with more pre-snap motion than th single wing.

L.C.
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/16/2015 9:26:02 AM

I have seen Ohio do plenty of trap blocking with pulling guards on some of those interior runs with the multi-back sets, though I agree that they don't do it much when they are lined up with a single back and everything spread out. I do agree with you that the third TE is never used as a run option. That doesn't mean that the other plays aren't essentially single wing plays, just that they are only running a handful of single wing plays, rather than a full complement of them.

My comment is that that particular set, with the three TEs, is very similar to a single wing set, so there is no reason they can't run single wing plays from it. Some of the plays they run from it are essentially single wing plays, so is there any reason they couldn't run other single wing plays from the same formation?

Having done this reading on the single wing, I will say this: Come this fall, when they line up in that 3 tight end set, I'm going to watch what they are doing with a different perspective.

Last Edited: 5/16/2015 9:27:08 AM by L.C.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Mike Johnson
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/16/2015 10:14:25 AM

I mentioned that the 34 was a strong short-yardage play, one that Monroe would applaud. He'd also likely applaud 36 - a power sweep. Wingback would block down on defensive end. Right end would block down on defensive tackle. Right tackle would fire out on a linebacker. Right guard and center would block straight ahead, insuring that no defender could penetrate the backfield as the play was developing. Left guard would sprint downfield to his right to take out a DB. Meanwhile both the quarterback and fullback would be leading the tailback running wide. Often when a defense saw the play coming they simply were stampeded by the power blocking.

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L.C.
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/16/2015 12:49:13 PM

Mike Johnson wrote:

I will find more footage later to illustrate the similarity between the Ohio 3 tight end set and the single wing, but if you look at this film at the 1:42 mark you will see a 36 power sweep, except that Sprague throws the ball instead of running it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uucuNH2gLDM
Mangen moves into the "quarterback" position, and the Left Guard pulls. The differences I see between this play and what you describe:
1. The wingback goes deep, so the Mangen blocks down.
2. AJ, instead of leading the play, blocks the backside.
3. The right tackle blocked a lineman, not the linebacker.

Had Sprague not thrown it, I think he could have run it for good yardage, too, if Lucas was able to block the cornerback. Had they led AJ to that side, and changed the right tackle's block to the linebacker, it would have been very much like what you describe.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/16/2015 1:28:48 PM

So, Ohio has recently run sets with two running backs in the backfield, formations in which the defense might have had to hesitate for a moment on a running play to see which would get the ball?

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L.C.
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/16/2015 7:02:51 PM

C Money wrote:

Blocking system. The single wing requires a lot of pulls and traps, something we don't do in the zone read system....

Here's an example of them in that formation, but running a zone read play, with no trap blocking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UNiT_IzeKM
at 3:05
Also, same film, at 1:42 they run an unblocked play that relies on deception, and Sprague then runs a naked run.

Here's another play from that formation, used for a Sprague keeper:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCMA3UwGGtM
at 2:51 (yes, with several backs they could hand to)
also, at 3:34

Here's another play with fakes, and with a pulling guard (Pruehs):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQv1lB3KWoc
at 5:35

So, they do use pulling guards at times, and I think that, if they cared to, they could easily implement more single wing plays from that formation.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

C Money
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/16/2015 9:49:45 PM

I still don't think our blocking system is ideal for a true single wing offense. The offside guard sliding over into a blocking zone is different from the wall of pulling blockers the single wing uses. Our offense is reading the reactions of the defenders to our formation and blocking. In the single wing, you're using misdirection to freeze the defenders and the delay allows you to get your blockers in position.

Now, I do think that our offense could more closely resemble some of those single wing plays with a faster tempo, because the faster the offense moves, the better chance you have of getting a defender to freeze or even misread and react incorrectly.

L.C.
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/16/2015 11:21:04 PM

There are other major differences as well. For example, the Ohio offense always keeps the pass as an option, and therefore the blockers can't head downfield early. That's why you don't see the tackles downfield blocking linebackers. Also, since the pass is key, the receivers are often set out wide, meaning there isn't a back in a "wingback" position who can crack down on the DE. Of course, it also means a defender is out there with him, so it has it's advantages, too.

I'm not trying to say that Ohio is running the single wing from that formation, only that some of the plays that they run from it could be inspired by the single wing, and that, should they be inclined to do so, they could borrow more single wing-style plays from that three TE set.

I've always thought that was an odd set anyway, and didn't really understand what they were trying to accomplish. Watching some single wing does give me a better idea of what they might be able to accomplish from it.

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BillyTheCat
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/17/2015 3:46:08 PM

Blocking schemes are very similar to the wingT. There are similarities in sets to the modern spread running games, especially what Urban did at Florida with Tebow. The unbalanced v balanced line is all in what fronts you want to run against and getting the defense into the situations that you desire.

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/17/2015 8:22:57 PM

L.C. wrote:

C Money wrote:

Blocking system. The single wing requires a lot of pulls and traps, something we don't do in the zone read system....

At 2:51 that is NOT a play in which they can handoff to more than one running back. The qb is about 3 yards behind the line of scrimmage and the other 'running back' is about a yard and a half to the qb's left and a yard and a half in front of him. At the goal line, there's about zero chance that we'd hand the ball to a guy who'd have to turn around and run backwards to get it. ....though if we did it or faked it to such a guy, that would be an occasional interesting wrinkle.

I'd just like to see more than one guy lined up in true running back position.

L.C.
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/17/2015 11:51:08 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

On that play, in theory he could have handed it to AJ, who started beside him, so I counted him, but I agree that AJ took off to be the lead blocker, and didn't wait for a fake. Sprague did fake to the wingback, however (Walker, perhaps?), and certainly could have handed the ball to him, before running the ball himself.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

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