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Topic: RE: Stop it.

Topic: RE: Stop it.

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Monroe Slavin
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/5/2015 1:04:47 AM

cc-ct, remember that I couched this as giving us the advantage that we'd be doing something different, something that teams don't see every week and so would have some difficulty in preparing for.

Also, who says we have to run 70-80% of the time (not sure whose thought that was here). This is about style of football, not necessarily using it on a disproportionate amount of plays called.

Am I really that distinct of a minority in finding our recent (going on 3 years)combo of play calling and losing to be boring and unacceptable?

get 'em, now, dfc.

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Campus Flow
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/5/2015 2:29:07 AM

Frank is on his 12 recruiting class in Athens. Re: MAC Championship if it takes 14 years to get one what impact does it have? Fans were hoping Solich would stick around 5-6 years and get a MAC Championship, not 15-16 years with nothing which is where its headed.

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Bcat2
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/5/2015 6:20:40 AM

Uncle Wes wrote:

So there has been "nothing" of which to be proud or happy. You must be kidding. Pitt, Penn State, Bowl wins. You are one who is demanding MACC performance of a program that is not receiving MACC support. Why? Below is from a previous post.

"Just received my 2015-2016 Ohio Bobcat Club Membership Guide. Page two shows the results of a MAC survey on Unrestricted Giving. Ten schools participated, NIU and CMU declined to disclose information. Of the ten schools reporting active donors Ohio ranked eighth, with 1,897, ahead of only Kent State and Eastern Michigan. Kudos to those 1,897 active donors who rank eighth in their number, but, rank sixth in their giving.

Now given the above information it seems Ohio is doing as well I would expect given the donor support. It is unreasonable to demand best in conference performance without best in conference support. Again, it seems to me Ohio is doing as well as we might expect."

Uncle Wes, should fans who provide middle of the pack support be on high horses demanding best in MAC performance?

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

cc-cat
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/5/2015 8:55:00 AM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

cc-cat, remember that I couched this as giving us the advantage that we'd be doing something different, something that teams don't see every week and so would have some difficulty in preparing for.

I think you are confusing doing something different and difficulty to prepare. Going with "bigManz" and a power game does not necessarily require opponents to re-scheme and teach new defensive discipline as, for example, preparing for the Georgia Tech option does. A difficult task in a week's time. Defenses will simply load the box, replace a linebacker or safety with a lineman, etc. A task, but not turning them upside down.

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Also, who says we have to run 70-80% of the time (not sure whose thought that was here). This is about style of football, not necessarily using it on a disproportionate amount of plays called.

If we do it, then do it, can't play with it. Changing to a power game changes the type of linemen we recruit, the type of receivers we recruit, the type of backs we recruit. You don;t do that and then only flirt with it.

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Am I really that distinct of a minority in finding our recent (going on 3 years)combo of play calling and losing to be boring and unacceptable?

Not at all. I agree we are not where we want or should be. You have acknowledged that I agree we are not where we want or should be. Just don't see this as 1) the solution. 2). certainly not a quick solution (gotta change who we recruit), and 3). not in sync with what you and others have complained about e.g., boring and predictable play calling.

I don't mind the offense we run. Agree it needs to be more creative. Agree that a change in Off. Coordinator would therefore be welcome. Feel we need better and more consistent production from particular positions. But to change to power game doesn't make sense (and also limits the attraction of Ohio to many recruits...yes, as does losing...but we are not even remotely in the same position as we were for most of the generation prior to Frank).

OUcats82
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/5/2015 9:25:56 AM

http://www.gloucestercitynews.net/.a/6a00d8341bf7d953ef01...

Make this happen and everything else disappears for I think 99% of our fan base in terms of questions, criticisms, or concerns.

Ohio-The State University

Campus Flow
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/5/2015 11:17:41 PM

Bcat2 wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

Demanding a MAC Championship every year is demanding the best of MAC performance. Any MAC school brings in a coach on a 5 year contract they are hoping that within 5 years the coach will produce a MAC championship. Miami brought a coach in who did it in year 2 with Haywood and BG did it with Clawson in a 5 years. If a program is in a complete hole 6-8 years is acceptable if progress is made. 2011 was Frank's 7th season at Ohio and his best at 10-4 with a near MAC Championship. We've gone 3-4 seasons since then and the program has regressed to 8, 7 and now 6 wins. What is saving Frank's job at the moment is recruiting at an all time, mostly because of the IPF and improved post season access not due to Frank as it was his first 5-6 years in Athens attracting more interest. I'm at the point where I don't think a token MAC Championship helps Ohio because if Frank does get it, it has taken way way too long. When the next coach comes into Athens the rub will be that it takes 14-15 years for a coach to pull off a MAC Championship at Ohio and that is not a good thing.

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2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
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Bcat2
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/6/2015 7:35:03 AM

Uncle Wes wrote:

Bcat2 wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

Totally failed to address/ignored the question. Coach Solich has brought much more to Ohio than "token" winning. Haywood and Clawson are your examples of what you want? Combined they are 103-103 with Haywood out of coaching and Clawson 3-7 and 1-7 in conference last season. Be careful what you wish for.

Last Edited: 5/6/2015 10:48:44 AM by Bcat2

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

L.C.
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/6/2015 11:45:52 AM

Wes, you do realize, no doubt, that more often that not, when a coach departs there is a regression to the mean. Each school has a historical norm that is ties to a lot of things, such as location, attractiveness as a recruiting destination, proximity to recruits, etc. Schools may deviate from that historical norm for a while, either above or below it, but usually, they trend back towards that mean.

As an example, Miami has a historical norm of winning, yet in recent years they haven't been very good. Odds are that they will, sooner or later, return to that norm. Kansas State, by contrast, has a historical norm of being bad, and when Snyder retired for the first time it drifted back in that direction, until he returned. Odds are that when he retires permanently, it will once again head back in that direction.

Can anything be done to change that "historical norm"? Yes, a few things. You can't change proximate to recruits, nor the attractiveness of the destination, but you can improve facilities, you can improve fan support and connectedness to the local community, and you can create a culture of success. Those things tend to carry on beyond the current coaching staff.

Those also happen to be the things I have seen change the most at Ohio over the last decade. Ohio has built facilities. Ohio has improved fan support (unlike NIU, which is headed in the other direction). Ohio has improved their connectedness to the local community. Ohio has improved ties to athletes and coaches across the state. Ten years ago Ohio made offers to many in-state players, but got few acceptances except from players who had no other offers, so they had to scour the country for players. Today they get most of the players they want from in-state, at least, the ones that don't go to P5 schools.

Finally, Ohio has also built a culture of success. A decade ago a 6-6 season would have been pretty good. Now it isn't acceptable. That's a change that makes it harder for the players and the coaches, but it's one that I think they really want - they want there to be a culture of success.

Will these cultural changes survive the coaching staff? I don't know. Will Ohio be able to build on its success in the future? Or, will they begin to regress to the historical norm? That i don't know, either, but both are possible, it's it's something I am curious to see happen. Certainly the fact that the culture has been slowly changed over a long period of time makes the odds of being durable greater.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/7/2015 2:36:00 AM

Bcat2 wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

Bcat2 wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

WHATEVER.

In case you missed that, let me repeat it: WHATEVER.

The other stuff is acknowledged and beginning to be ancient.

Now, it's all about MACC.

If you think it's not all about MACC, please start a new website for people who don't understand what's important.

Bcat2
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What is important?

Posted: 5/7/2015 7:22:49 AM

Hello.

We need a discussion about what is important.

Me. I believe there is more than winning. Certainly more than trophies. How about.

Building the best place for student/athletes to pursue their degrees.

Graduating student/athletes. See: Crutcher, Patterson, McQueen.

Owning promises made to parents in their living rooms.

Representing Ohio well.

Hiring good people.

Recruiting good young men.

Did I say graduating student/athletes.

OK, now I am ready for every one to tell me how wrong I am.

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

OhioCatFan
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RE: What is important?

Posted: 5/7/2015 10:16:43 AM

To add to what bcat2 said, there's saying, chiseled on a wall at the University of Nebraska stadium, that I'd like see somewhere in Peden:

�Not the victory but the action; Not the goal but the game; In the deed the glory.�

Compare that with a certain school up north along the banks of the Olentangy that says, "We'll win the game or no the reason why."

This doesn't mean that each school doesn't try their best to win every game, but it does mean philosophically that you do or don't understand the intrinsic value of the effort and striving. Subtle, perhaps, but there's world of difference between these two "football world views."

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Mike Johnson
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/7/2015 10:32:25 AM

L.C. wrote:

In thinking of the future of Ohio football,we might want to ask ourselves the nature of Ohio's historical football norm. Certainly younger fans might understandably view the norm as dreadful. We more senior fans might view it differently.

To wit, through the decades of Don Peden and Bill Hess, the norm ranged from generally competitive to excellent. Following Hess' departure, for the next half dozen years, the norm was classic mediocrity - .500.

Then came the plunge into the Dark Ages under Bryant and Lichty and during their 10 seasons arrived a new historical norm of unparalleled awfulness - 17 wins during those 10 years.

Grobe arrives and a resurrection begins. Competitiveness returns.

After 6 years Grobe departs and a mini-Dark Age - 4 Knorr seasons - ensues.

Now with Solich we've had a decade of competitiveness that at times has verged on excellence.

Soooo, with that perspective, L.C., how would you assess Ohio's historical norm?

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OhioCatFan
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/7/2015 10:39:09 AM

Mike, I think you've summarized things quite well. Good job.

Monroe Slavin
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RE: What is important?

Posted: 5/7/2015 10:40:32 AM

Bcat2 wrote:

Really. You are impressively willfully obtuse.

Yes, all those things are important. But none of them stand against the reasonable request of winning a MACC.

You're level of obsequiousness continues to be sickening.

Again, begging the questions: Is there any way you could be more of a poser for the program? If someone were to work in P.R. for the program, would them be as effusively, 100% allthetime as praiseworthy of it as you.

What did you think of the games in 2013 in which we got WORKED by BG and Beefs and such? Were those all excused by all the things that you cite.

Casper71
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RE: What is important?

Posted: 5/7/2015 2:55:55 PM

Maybe if we actually WON a MACC more than 1897 or whatever the number the #8 ranked school gets in donors would be higher.

And, seriously, when FS and Co were hired, did anybody think we would be looking at year 11 or 12 or whatever with not even one MACC?

And, to add another insult...I just read the article about 42 bowls in 2015-16 and in addition to UMASS, OHIO is one of the MAC schools NOT expected to make the cut for the 5 bowl gimmes the MAC has ties to. So, looks like we really are #6 in the pecking order? I hope we parove them all wrong on th field this fall!

My conclusion after about 45 years of watching this story unfold: there really are structural issue with OHIO football that nothing and I mean nothing will change. What those issues are, I don't know. But, start with a glorified high school stadium, add in the rural location, add in the lack of alumni support, add in the lack of resources in general (big company support), and on and on and yes the conclusion is relatively simple: We will probably NEVER be much more than what we are now and have been recently in FB. It is what it is!

So, accept it and get on with life.

Campus Flow
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RE: What is important?

Posted: 5/7/2015 4:26:01 PM

Bcat2 wrote:

If we are on the subject of historical norms, Ohio is one of the few if not the only FBS school to never have a major NCAA infraction. You are saying Frank runs a classy program but that is what Ohio's always been about. Nobody is ever challenging Frank on his ability to run a clean program.

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2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
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Casper71
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RE: What is important?

Posted: 5/7/2015 4:37:17 PM

Wes, close but no cigar. 17 have never had a major violation and 5 of those are MAC schools!

http://www.businessinsider.com/17-schools-ncaa-violation-...

Casper71
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RE: What is important?

Posted: 5/7/2015 4:41:03 PM

That is a 2011 article. Pretty sure there is at least one less on the list now...PSU!

Campus Flow
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RE: Stop it.

Posted: 5/7/2015 5:40:44 PM

L.C. wrote:

College football has a plate techonics to it. Change to the hierarchy happens very slowly, sometimes it takes decades. TCU was a lousy program from the mid 1930's on to the mid 1990's. They had an occasional big win peppered in there because when you have 60 cracks to play Texas you are bound to win 1 or 2. What happened at TCU? There was a cataclysmic event known as the SMU death penalty. Before the death penalty SMU in the early 80's SMU had several teams in the Top 10-15 of the standings much like TCU is known for today. SMU had no football team in 1987 and 1988. When football returned, games were moved from the Cotton Bowl to a 23,000 seat on campus stadium. Strict recruiting standards were imposed. In the wake of SMU's demise TCU went on to win the SWC championship in 1994. The recruiting landscape was permanently altered. Then the SWC conference broke up and TCU didn't make the cut for the B12 since the revitalization was just beginning. The breakup hurt Houston and Rice leaving a power conference. TCU with the Dallas-FW region to its own had an advantage over the other non-BCS Texas schools and gradually built a solid the excellent program on the easier non-BCS schedule. Today TCU is in the B12 and SMU is nowhere. How does this relate to the dynamics in the MAC? Miami was the traditional all sport power in the MAC with the best academics and campus in recruiting wars that centered around the student athlete. What happened to Miami is other schools caught up on the academics and campus. Increased enrollments at other schools while Miami remained static small timed their program. Cincinnati's build up gave them the corner on recruits in SW Ohio. Miami was also one of Ohio's biggest eye-2-eye recruiting competitors in the MAC so their demise has benefited Ohio while Ohio's built a game day environment unlike anything else found in the MAC then fortified its position with facility upgrades. When Ohio goes 1-9 against Miami for a decade, then turn around and dominate 9-1 the next decade there has been a fundamental shift. Ohio has put more distance on Miami's program than what they ever had over Ohio even at their peak. I wouldn't be surprised if the next coach at Ohio is the first million dollar coach in the MAC. An uptick in Ohio recruiting the past 4 years regardless of a temporary downtick in wins. For Ohio it was steady progress under the Grobe years (yes even some overall progress with Knorr), the Solich years and the landscape is such the next coach could even elevate the program further. You can call me an optimist but this program is gradually trending up in the 20 years I've been following closely.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Campus Flow
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RE: What is important?

Posted: 5/7/2015 5:54:55 PM

Casper71 wrote:

Wes, close but no cigar. 17 have never had a major violation and 5 of those are MAC schools!

http://www.businessinsider.com/17-schools-ncaa-violation-...

The MAC has a good reputation. For that reason I wouldn't under estimate the challenge of winning the MAC Championship. The MAC had 4 teams ranked in 2012 with the MAC Championship winner a lock for the Orange Bowl. Its not a power conference but its a good football conference and the same goes for basketball. Our problem is our football staff is only average for FBS and that is why we keep finishing anywhere from Top 40 to Top 100 every year the middle 50% of the division. Frank was never an A level head coach at Nebraska or Ohio, both schools a conference heavy weight in their respective conferences.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

OhioCatFan
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RE: What is important?

Posted: 5/7/2015 6:09:01 PM

Uncle Wes, does Frank get some credit for the great record against Miami? There are a number of folks in Nebraska who now wish Frank hadn't been fired and think that their record over the ensuing years would have been much better if he had stayed at the helm. And, you call him not a top-level coach?

Last Edited: 5/7/2015 6:09:22 PM by OhioCatFan

Campus Flow
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RE: What is important?

Posted: 5/7/2015 6:17:28 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

He was an A level assistant at Nebraska but he's B level as a HC.

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2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Bcat2
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RE: What is important?

Posted: 5/7/2015 6:31:41 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

Casper71 wrote:

Wes, close but no cigar. 17 have never had a major violation and 5 of those are MAC schools!

http://www.businessinsider.com/17-schools-ncaa-violation-...

Well, at Nebraska, 58-19, Conf Champ 1999, Big12 COY 1999 & 2001, dismissed in 2003 when team was 9-3. The 1999 Conf Championship is Nebraska's most recent. What exactly would it take to be "A" level?

Please help me with concept of Ohio as a conference heavyweight?

Last Edited: 5/7/2015 6:49:13 PM by Bcat2

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

Campus Flow
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RE: What is important?

Posted: 5/7/2015 7:28:11 PM

Bcat2 wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

Casper71 wrote:

Wes, close but no cigar. 17 have never had a major violation and 5 of those are MAC schools!

http://www.businessinsider.com/17-schools-ncaa-violation-...

As far as the concept take the AAC and compare East Carolina and Tulane. ECU is thought of a heavyweight in football and Tulane as a bottom feeder. It starts with the game atmosphere and investment which is reflected by wins. Now compare Ohio to Eastern Michigan, Akron or Miami. Ohio definitely has a better program in wins and fan support ect. FWIW Ohio is the best overall job in the MAC. It the easiest brand to recruit to as some players are just going to feel more confident with a state name opposed to a directional.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Bcat2
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RE: What is important?

Posted: 5/7/2015 7:51:21 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

Bcat2 wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

Casper71 wrote:

Wes, close but no cigar. 17 have never had a major violation and 5 of those are MAC schools!

http://www.businessinsider.com/17-schools-ncaa-violation-...

Got it, better than Eastern Michigan, Akron & Miami = heavyweight. Now what would coach S have needed to add to his Nebraska achievements to be "A" rated? He was dismissed in 2003 while 9-3, 58-19, Conf Champ in 1999, Big12 COY 1999 & 2001.

P.S. When exactly did Ohio become the best job in the MAC?

Last Edited: 5/7/2015 7:57:27 PM by Bcat2

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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