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Topic: RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Topic: RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

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colobobcat66
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/12/2015 2:24:10 PM

Paul Graham wrote:

Some random thoughts

1.) The myth of the 2012 team. Even BEFORE Thompson went down something was off. They almost lost to a terrible UMass team on the road the week before. And, they were in a fight for their life against Buffalo (a 4-8 team) even before Thompson went down. They were a paper tiger...sorry folks. They never had a chance to win the MAC that year. Injuries were probably responsible for the major butt kicking at BSU...but did not prevent a MAC title.

2.) Why do we complain? 0-10 against top tier MAC teams since Lavon left, with an average loss of 20+ points. That is odd and new, and worth understanding.

3.) The Frankites now want us to keep our opinions to ourselves. That is silly. For some of us, this is one of the only ways we can talk about Ohio Football. Some of us follow this team closer than any other (I follow no other sport and no other team) and have no other outlet for expressing our opinions.

For example, when all the backup linebackers appear to be ex-walkons I'm going to mention that because that is weird. For those of you living in a reality where that is not weird...I don't know what to say.

I think the team became a paper tiger during the year. The more injuries piled up, the more likely that they would start losing.

L.C.
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/12/2015 4:44:56 PM

colobobcat66 wrote:

You may be onto something, but I can read another explanation between the lines in what you outline here. I think the large number of injuries caught up to the team. They lost the game to Miami before any of the negativity on this board materialized so you can hardly blame that loss on what anybody said on this board. Frankly, I have have seen other teams pretty much hang it up when they lose their first game after a run of winning. The Miami loss and the mounting injuries combined to burst their bubble and they were unable to get back to the level of confidence that they had before...

I think that of the people here, you are the one that seems to understand my point. I totally agree that the mounting injuries (and lack of depth from recruiting) led to the loss to Miami, but also to the close games before it. Yes, after something like that it is not uncommon for the air to come out, and for teams to collapse after a long string of wins ends in such a fashion. But, it doesn't have to be that way. I've also seen teams pick back up where they left off.

I have seen the latter particularly when they get (unexpected) strong fan support, and the former is more likely when they get criticism from fans. I remember one case from a long time ago where a team (don't remember if it was basketball or football) had a hard loss on the road, and flew home with their heads down. When they got off the plane late at night, they were shocked to find a crowd of fans at the airport, cheering for them, and holding signs of support. Yes, that team picked right back up.

Paul Graham wrote:

... The Frankites now want us to keep our opinions to ourselves....

I presume you are referring to me here, but if so, you miss my point entirely. I don't want you to keep your opinions to yourself, nor to be positive now if you don't feel like it. Now doesn't matter. What I did want, at that delicate moment in 2012, when the team had just had it's dreams burst, was for fans to support them, and not attack them. What goes on most of the time has no impact. I don't think the negativity here last year had any impact on 2014. I just happen to think that at that one particular moment in time, after the Miami game in 2012, the fans had the opportunity to positively help the team, and they took the opposite course.

Paul Graham wrote:

...For example, when all the backup linebackers appear to be ex-walkons I'm going to mention that because that is weird. For those of you living in a reality where that is not weird...I don't know what to say.

For me it's not weird, and the reason is because they are talented. If you were to ask me why we didn't start Chad Moore out as a scholarship player, after the positive experiences with his brother Keith, OK, maybe that's weird.

I don't expect we'll ever agree on walkons, but for me it comes down to this: Some players get scholarships because they look good on film from high school. Others get them because they arrive at Ohio and pay their own way for awhile, and prove they deserve it. Both are valid paths.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Paul Graham
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/13/2015 2:39:49 PM

L.C. wrote:

For me it's not weird, and the reason is because they are talented.

It would be one thing if they were beating out scholarship players...but they aren't. We just don't have anyone else because we have a recruiting hole. I count only THREE LB's in the Senior,Junior and Sophomore classes that weren't walk-ons or preferred walk-ons. And not surprisingly, those are your three starters.

L.C.
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/13/2015 4:04:46 PM

That's a fair comment, Paul. That's another thing that a walkon program can do for you, is help you when you have unusual attrition at a single position. LB has been hard hit lately:
Ben Russell would be a Senior, but had injury issues
Jake Schany would be a Junior, but had injury issues
William Johnson would be a Junior, not sure why he left
Dyquan Stewart would be a Junior, but left the program
James Alexander would be a Sophomore, but left the program for personal reasons

If it weren't for walkons, LB would be awfully thin. With Croutch, Cloud, and Glasco coming in this fall, there should be more depth soon, but I didn't have any issues with Grillot, Moore, or Daugherty. I thought they all played capably when they were in last year.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Paul Graham
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/14/2015 12:29:31 PM

And as usual LC, we start to converge on a shared opinion after a few posts. :)

I agree with you in many ways. The walk-on program can fill holes when players split. My main concern is that I feel like sometimes we lean to heavily on it, and we end up with multi-year players (sometimes even starters) that are acceptable MAC players but...are not going to push us to the next level. These are players we can beat most of the MAC with (when you combine them with good/stable coaching from Frank). But they will struggle to compete with Fleck and his more #elite (used ironically) athletes.

But then it becomes more of a philosophical question. If Frank can build a program that wins more than it loses in the MAC and do so without chasing the 3/4 star players (and losing some dignity in the process) then maybe this strikes the right balance.

OhioCatFan
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/14/2015 2:06:31 PM

I don't understand the negativity toward a solid walkon program. I believe it is a good supplement to our scholarship recruitment program. As others have pointed out, we've gotten a number of solid players through this program. One of the latest, AJ, may well eventually play at the "next level." L.C. can correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that through the years Nebraska has had a very well-developed walkon program and they've gotten many starters via that route. I suspect that Frank is trying to develop a similar program here. Though I didn't follow walkons all that closely in past years, it's my general impression that under previous coaches, with the possible exception of Hess, that our walkon program was kind of an ad hoc deal. Now, I get the impression, that the walkon program is part of the overall plan and is not just an afterthought. To me that's a positive development.

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L.C.
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/14/2015 4:04:11 PM

I think walkon programs are all over the map. Some schools don't have them at all, some schools have them, but walkons are mostly used as practice helpers. Other schools have them like Ohio's, where you have to try out to be allowed to walk on, and they limit the numbers, but if you are allowed to walkon, you get treated the same as all the other players. It's still a difficult journey from walkon to starter, one that few complete.

Nebraska's walkon program back in the 80's and 90's was kind of a special case, one that most likely will never be repeated. Unlike Ohio, where there are many Division I football teams, in Nebraska there is only one. Back then anyone in the state who could play, if they didn't get a scholarship to Nebraska, walked on. Today it is very different because schools like Ohio, Colorado State, Kansas State, NDSU, Liberty, and Wyoming now recruit the state. Twenty years ago players like Leuck, Donahue, Lechner, Davis, Bunner, Dietz, Vick, Bass, Keller, and Schany would not have had an offer from Ohio, and most likely would have walked on at Nebraska. Without a doubt, wome of those would have earned playing time. With all the other schools recruiting the state, the quality of walkons that Nebraska gets is lower these days.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Paul Graham
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/14/2015 4:56:09 PM

I sometimes don't even know what I'm complaining about...so lets me see if I can figure it out....

You build a solid walkon program by giving out scholarships. If you didn't, then the quality of the program would diminish. We seem to give out a lot, and I would say that those players tend to be seeing the field in higher and higher numbers. This is probably partially due to the poor recruiting classes of 2010 and 2011.

So the increased visibility of walkons has correlated with bad recruiting classes and our recent (temporary?) decline in performance. So "walkon" has become perhaps an easy target for those frustrations.

In general, I guess I would just do it differently and not put such an emphasis on walkons. I suppose I'm more of a Fleck (I can't believe I just said that) than a Solich.

OhioCatFan
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/14/2015 6:02:36 PM

Thanks, Paul, I now understand the differences in our perspectives. I'm more a Solich than a Fleck, who I consider kind of a snake-oil salesman. Solich I think is building a program; whereas, Fleck is building his personal resume. I understand that along the way WMU benefits, but I much prefer someone like Solich that builds from the foundation up rather than building a tent pitched on the ground and ready to move at a moments notice. It's just a difference of perspective. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, we just look at the situation differently. I'm also fairly confident that OHIO will return to its winning ways this fall, and we'll all have a big lovefest here on BA and the great "walkon-debate" will be just a distant memory! ;-)

BTW, L.C., I had a friend who was a walkon at OHIO under Hess. I don't believe that he was on the team more than a year. This guy had a lot of pure athletic talent but more was needed to succeed than just talent under Hess.

Mike Johnson
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/14/2015 8:39:19 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

Boy, Carl, your closing paragraph triggers certain memories. In Game #8 of my senior high school season, my undefeated and ranked Shelby team hosted undefeated and ranked Bellevue. Both teams were loaded with talent and were well coached.

Bellevue took the lead on a most unlikely TD run. RB Marc McLain fumbled a pitchout. The ball bounced high and Mark recovered, turned on a dime and cut back against the pursuit. About 55 yards later he crossed the goal line - Bellevue's only score. Unfortunately for us Shelby guys, we also scored but once and Bellevue triumphed by an extra point.

Mark made first team All-Ohio and received a full ride to Michigan. He lasted one year there and transferred to Ohio where again he lasted only one year. Mark had plenty of talent but relied a tad too heavily on it.

(One of my Shelby teammates later became a good friend of Mark and tells me that he built a successful business career.)

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

OhioCatFan
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/14/2015 10:28:50 PM

Mike, sounds like a similar story. My friend is now deceased and he was a very good man who had a heart of gold and would always help out those less fortunate than he. However, I always wished that I had had one-tenth of the innate athletic talent that he had. He just kind of took his athletic ability for granted. I remember as kids he could throw a ball from deep centerfield across the center of home plate with one or no hops. When I told him most major leaguers didn't have that kind of accuracy he would just shrug.

L.C.
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/15/2015 6:08:06 PM

Paul Graham wrote:

I do think that Ohio is after the 3-4 star players, but the numbers of those that they can get, or have been able to get, has been limited. Even then, not all the 3-star players work out (and I can PM you a list of some 3-star players that didn't). I guess where I stand is that, while Player A may be better than Player B in high school, and may get the scholarship, there is nothing written in stone that says that 4 years later Player B won't be better. The fact that there is some merit to the recruiting process is confirmed by the fact that for every ten walkons, who start out among the best of the Player B types, only one is able to move up to scholarship status.

I'm all for opportunity, and I fully expect that there are always going to be players missed by the recruiting process who turn out to be good players, and end up better than the recruited players. I consider it pretty normal to find 1-2 players a year that are deserving. Also, once they earn a scholarship, I see no reason to treat them any differently than those that got a scholarship directly out of high school; both types of players should be expected to play well.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Paul Graham
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/16/2015 12:07:14 PM

L.C. wrote:

Paul Graham wrote:

I agree, and it is certainly true that we've had 3 star players not work out. And of course this is clearly not an exact science as you've pointed out.

One thing often not pointed out though...the players "missed by the recruiting process" happens at all levels. We sometimes get lucky and end up with players (Carrie, Brazill, Keller, Jordan Thompson, Mitchell, etc...) that belonged at a higher level. They all had one or two offers at MAC level schools, but clearly could have played/started at BCS level programs.

I would argue that those outliers are the key to winning MAC titles. Our 2011 season, where we all but won the MACC, was a season where we had more of those players than any other year. Four of the names above were on that team (and healthy) along with a few others like Phil Bates.

I can't think of any former walkon that became a talent like those above. Maybe AJ will eventually but we'll have to see. Regardless, we will need to elevate our talent level if we expect to compete for a MACC anytime soon...and I don't think a strong walk-on program that takes 10 or more scholarships off the table is the way to do it. That 10 is a guess though...I really don't know what the actual number is.

L.C.
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/16/2015 5:23:18 PM

I count 8 at the current moment, but that number could be high. Eight is based on the premise that every walkon who ever got a scholarship still has one, something that is not probably not true. Sometimes there is extra money left, because someone leaves mid-year, and thus a scholarship is temporarily available. It is typical to award that to some deserving walkon, but it may only be for one semester, or for a year. Thus, some of the 8 who are "walkons that have been given scholarship" may have only gotten the grant on a temporary basis, while others are permanent.

The eight I count are Sprague, OUellette, Yazdani, Adams, Daugherty, Moore, Jones, and Scipio. Given that I count 87 on scholarship come fall, I suspect that it's really only 6 former walkons with permanent scholarships. Even 6 is unusually high for Ohio. Most of the past ten years it seems to me it's been more like 2-3.

Last Edited: 4/16/2015 5:25:41 PM by L.C.

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Monroe Slavin
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/17/2015 1:49:13 AM

So a nearly 300% greater reliance on walkons than usual ?!

Is good?

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Paul Graham
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/17/2015 9:17:38 AM

L.C. wrote:

I wonder if Grilliot and Dixon have scholarships too.

L.C.
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/17/2015 12:54:31 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

So a nearly 300% greater reliance on walkons than usual ?!

Is good?

I'm not sure it's necessarily good or bad. If they are lowering the quality of players by giving scholarships to players that aren't all that good, that's a bad thing. If they are attracting better and better players to the program, who don't get "paid" a scholarship until they prove they can produce, it's a good thing. I know that the National Championship teams that Solich was a part of at Nebraska typically had a dozen or so former walkons who had earned scholarships, usually 4-5 starters, so it isn't something that necessarily limits the team.

Something that is not widely appreciated is the fringe benefit of the walkon program in terms of making the scholarship players better, too. It is well established that most people work harder, and perform better when pushed. If a scholarship player comes in, and has no one pushing him, he may or may not work his hardest.

One thing that is certain is that when walkons come into a program, with a goal of proving themselves, and trying to earn scholarships, they tend to work very, very hard. They lift hard, they study hard, they train hard, and they put out their best effort. That, in turn, adds to the culture, and the scholarship players work hard, too. After all, they don't want to be shown up by some walkon. The net result is that the team gets better.

After Solich left Nebraska, his successor disbanded their walkon program, and tried to recruit more 4-star athletes. Somehow something was lost, and the players foundered. They looked better on paper, but not on the field. Was it the related to the lack of walkons to push the starter? There is no way to be certain, but I suspect that it was.

Solich has built a culture of hard work at Ohio. Ohio has never had top-of-the-MAC rated recruiting classes, but has been in the top 2-3 in the MAC in terms of MAC winning percentage over the long term, and I think that reflects that they get the most out of the players they have, and the hard work of the players involved. Is that partly related to the walkon program? My guess is yes.

The last few years Ohio has had recruiting classes that are ranked much higher than the 2005-2012 classes. Will that ethic of hard work carry over and enable the recent recruits to accomplish more than than their predecessors, and win Monroe's elusive MAC Championship? We shall see, but I think they have a very good shot at it all three of the next three years.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Paul Graham
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/17/2015 1:56:51 PM

I'm not sure I buy the argument that walk-ons push scholarship players to be better. For one, scholarships aren't taken away from players and given to walk-ons. And second, players are (should?) be pushing to either overtake a player above them in the depth chart...or the inverse. The motivation to gain/not lose your spot is already there regardless of walk-ons.

And you've already dismantled your argument about the Nebraska teams in a prior post...so I'll leave that alone :)

In conclusion, I'm all for a walk-on program that gives out 3/4 scholarships per year. When it gets to be 8 or 10 (I guess we'll never really know) then it starts to become noticeable. My own opinion is that recent teams are not as physically gifted as prior years...and I'm certain I'm not the only one that feels that way. Hopefully the recent uptick in recruiting performance will get this back to normal.

WoodyHaha
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/17/2015 3:21:35 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong here boys....but AJ Oullette was a walk on that did not get a scholarship until one became available due to others losing their scholarship and well after the fact that he had proven to the coaches that he deserved it.

Some walk-ons (like AJ) are walk-ons simply because they were missed. AJ in particular was missed by colleges due to the fact that he graduated from such a small town school.

I believe there are walk-ons out there that are every bit as and in some cases more talented than "3" or "4 star" recruits. Therefore having a good walk-on program should be important.....but not impede on your recruiting efforts.

The mistake may not be bringing in the walk-on, but rather having missed the great athlete and letting what should be a scholarship player slip through your hands.

More than one way to look at it.....

L.C.
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/17/2015 4:01:12 PM

WoodyHaha wrote:

Obviously he couldn't have been given a scholarship if one had not been available. There were several no-shows in the class of 2015, which made it possible for him to be awarded one, so that part of your post I agree with. The part I disagree with is where you say "well after the fact that he had proven to the coaches he deserved it". He was awarded a scholarship in Fall camp, well before the first game, and long before he had ever taken a single snap for Ohio. To me it looks as if, as soon as he convinced the coaches that he deserved one, he was given one, and that was well before any of us, as fans, ever saw him.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/18/2015 11:00:42 AM

Interestngly, if you win a MAC Championship--not an unreasonable request after you've been there 10 years--no one gives a flip if you do it with walkons or 2-star recruits or 8-star recruits.

Not MACC is not interesting.

dcf, get it now. post your usually noonecares stuff.

Deciduous Forest Cat
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/18/2015 11:52:10 PM

I don't know who this dcf character is, but it strikes me that you've wasted nearly 5900 posts in the last few years on something that is "not interesting".

Maybe just come back when we win the MAC title?

Valley Cat
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/26/2015 8:26:38 AM

We ever figure out who #'s 61 and 73 are? They weren't listed on the roster.

Bcat2
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RE: Observations from the Spring "Game"

Posted: 4/26/2015 9:34:46 AM

Valley Cat wrote:

We ever figure out who #'s 61 and 73 are? They weren't listed on the roster.

Turned over a few rocks, nothing. N. Noltemeyer last had 73, last 61 I recall was B. Dietz. Might have just been a uniform issue, that the correct jerseys might not have been available. Did you notice anyone expected to play who was not there, at least we did not see there number in the images, N. Gibbons?

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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