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Topic:  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance

Topic:  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
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Mark Lembright '85
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/29/2014 10:59:28 PM 
The Optimist wrote:
Mark Lembright '85 wrote:
You guys still want to expand Peden Stadium?

Expanding Peden is about recruiting. I don't want to watch walk-ons at QB and HB any more. It is really that simple.

Expand or drop.


If the P5's expand scholarships to 105, the answer as Mike and others have stated above will be obvious.
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/29/2014 11:03:47 PM 
Mark Lembright '85 wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Mark Lembright '85 wrote:
You guys still want to expand Peden Stadium?

Expanding Peden is about recruiting. I don't want to watch walk-ons at QB and HB any more. It is really that simple.

Expand or drop.


If the P5's expand scholarships to 105, the answer as Mike and others have stated above will be obvious.

I've always agreed with those who argue the split is coming.

Where I have always disagreed is what side of the table Ohio will fall on when it is all said and done. We are clearly on one side now. Expanding is the key factor to moving us to the other side.

Last Edited: 10/29/2014 11:05:18 PM by The Optimist

I've seen crazier things happen.

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/29/2014 11:05:09 PM 
I would agree that Mike is right, the P5 will try to increase their number of available scholarships for both football and basketball, which will make the G5 increasingly less competitive. That may concentrate viewership on P5 games, or, it might backfire and chase people away from college sports at all.

Between this, and the whole unionization/employee issue, there are a lot more changes in the future. What they will be, and all the things they will affect I have no idea.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/29/2014 11:52:37 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
I wasn't talking about me when it comes to cost of attendance but for many folks who used to sit around me, they've already bailed. Add additional costs and it will be like a dam opening in terms of those folks exiting.


Goodness, pessimists abounding on here. From all indications, we have more season ticket holders and are making more $$ than ever. I don't know where they went, but they're probably sitting with me up in the Tower Club :)

And...the thought of paying NCAA athletes is the most asinine idea I have ever heard. 99% of all schools participating in the NCAA lose money...and LOTS of it. The perception of this being "big business" where the schools are making $$ off of the poor little athlete is crazy. NO ONE is making money save for the absolute blue-bloods (O$U, Texas, Nebraska, etc). Beyond that, everyone else is either in the red or milking student fees to make budget.

Adding the expense of cost of attendance will bankrupt the Indiana's and Georgia Tech's of the world just as much as it will the MAC. The only way it could work is if all non-revenue sports are dissolved and the big boys just play football and basketball. Even then, I'd wager 50% of them are still losing $$$.

The entire system is a money-losing proposition. Any opinions to the contrary are simply perpetuating a myth. I hope somebody starts to wake up before there are 5 schools left to compete while the rest are playing glorified intramurals.

Last Edited: 10/29/2014 11:53:25 PM by catfan28
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 6:31:42 AM 
catfan28 wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
I wasn't talking about me when it comes to cost of attendance but for many folks who used to sit around me, they've already bailed. Add additional costs and it will be like a dam opening in terms of those folks exiting.


Goodness, pessimists abounding on here. From all indications, we have more season ticket holders and are making more $$ than ever. I don't know where they went, but they're probably sitting with me up in the Tower Club :)

And...the thought of paying NCAA athletes is the most asinine idea I have ever heard. 99% of all schools participating in the NCAA lose money...and LOTS of it. The perception of this being "big business" where the schools are making $$ off of the poor little athlete is crazy. NO ONE is making money save for the absolute blue-bloods (O$U, Texas, Nebraska, etc). Beyond that, everyone else is either in the red or milking student fees to make budget.

Adding the expense of cost of attendance will bankrupt the Indiana's and Georgia Tech's of the world just as much as it will the MAC. The only way it could work is if all non-revenue sports are dissolved and the big boys just play football and basketball. Even then, I'd wager 50% of them are still losing $$$.

The entire system is a money-losing proposition. Any opinions to the contrary are simply perpetuating a myth. I hope somebody starts to wake up before there are 5 schools left to compete while the rest are playing glorified intramurals.



I believe you are correct in that thePurdue's, Indiana's, of the college world will have more serious issues.
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 7:46:30 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
catfan28 wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
I wasn't talking about me when it comes to cost of attendance but for many folks who used to sit around me, they've already bailed. Add additional costs and it will be like a dam opening in terms of those folks exiting.


Goodness, pessimists abounding on here. From all indications, we have more season ticket holders and are making more $$ than ever. I don't know where they went, but they're probably sitting with me up in the Tower Club :)

And...the thought of paying NCAA athletes is the most asinine idea I have ever heard. 99% of all schools participating in the NCAA lose money...and LOTS of it. The perception of this being "big business" where the schools are making $$ off of the poor little athlete is crazy. NO ONE is making money save for the absolute blue-bloods (O$U, Texas, Nebraska, etc). Beyond that, everyone else is either in the red or milking student fees to make budget.

Adding the expense of cost of attendance will bankrupt the Indiana's and Georgia Tech's of the world just as much as it will the MAC. The only way it could work is if all non-revenue sports are dissolved and the big boys just play football and basketball. Even then, I'd wager 50% of them are still losing $$$.

The entire system is a money-losing proposition. Any opinions to the contrary are simply perpetuating a myth. I hope somebody starts to wake up before there are 5 schools left to compete while the rest are playing glorified intramurals.



I believe you are correct in that thePurdue's, Indiana's, of the college world will have more serious issues.


Those schools won't have nearly the trouble of those on the fringe like UC, UConn, ECU, Houston, etc. At least GT, Indiana and Purdue are already in conference getting the television dollars. That's money in the bank they can count on year-in and year-out.

Folks, Ohio and the MAC made their own bed with this by standing pat once expansion started. They knew where they stood in the pecking order and didn't do a thing. And it was probably for the better. If Ohio was serious about competing at that level, they would have invested heavily into Peden Stadium upgrades years ago.

But Ohio's investments into the IPF and Academic Center could bode well down the road if they are shuffled to a lower division. Personally, I wouldn't mind Ohio being an NCAA championship caliber team at a level on par with MAC, C-USA, Sun Belt, AAC or MWC schools. Sure it would be great to be at the level of the P5, but it ain't happening unless there is a MAJOR investment made. Like 100 million range or more. So, someone go play the lottery, win it, and then talk to President McDavis and Jim Schaus.
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 8:38:43 AM 
GoCats105 wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
catfan28 wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
I wasn't talking about me when it comes to cost of attendance but for many folks who used to sit around me, they've already bailed. Add additional costs and it will be like a dam opening in terms of those folks exiting.


Goodness, pessimists abounding on here. From all indications, we have more season ticket holders and are making more $$ than ever. I don't know where they went, but they're probably sitting with me up in the Tower Club :)

And...the thought of paying NCAA athletes is the most asinine idea I have ever heard. 99% of all schools participating in the NCAA lose money...and LOTS of it. The perception of this being "big business" where the schools are making $$ off of the poor little athlete is crazy. NO ONE is making money save for the absolute blue-bloods (O$U, Texas, Nebraska, etc). Beyond that, everyone else is either in the red or milking student fees to make budget.

Adding the expense of cost of attendance will bankrupt the Indiana's and Georgia Tech's of the world just as much as it will the MAC. The only way it could work is if all non-revenue sports are dissolved and the big boys just play football and basketball. Even then, I'd wager 50% of them are still losing $$$.

The entire system is a money-losing proposition. Any opinions to the contrary are simply perpetuating a myth. I hope somebody starts to wake up before there are 5 schools left to compete while the rest are playing glorified intramurals.



I believe you are correct in that thePurdue's, Indiana's, of the college world will have more serious issues.


Those schools won't have nearly the trouble of those on the fringe like UC, UConn, ECU, Houston, etc. At least GT, Indiana and Purdue are already in conference getting the television dollars. That's money in the bank they can count on year-in and year-out.

Folks, Ohio and the MAC made their own bed with this by standing pat once expansion started. They knew where they stood in the pecking order and didn't do a thing. And it was probably for the better. If Ohio was serious about competing at that level, they would have invested heavily into Peden Stadium upgrades years ago.

But Ohio's investments into the IPF and Academic Center could bode well down the road if they are shuffled to a lower division. Personally, I wouldn't mind Ohio being an NCAA championship caliber team at a level on par with MAC, C-USA, Sun Belt, AAC or MWC schools. Sure it would be great to be at the level of the P5, but it ain't happening unless there is a MAJOR investment made. Like 100 million range or more. So, someone go play the lottery, win it, and then talk to President McDavis and Jim Schaus.


I think this post is pretty spot on.

Where I disagree is your grouping of the MAC, C-USA, Sun Belt, AAC and MWC together. To me, the AAC and MWC are on a different level than the MAC, C-USA, Sun Belt. With the IPF and Academic Center, I believe we have positioned ourselves to join schools like UConn and Cincinnati. That is a great thing. I want those two programs in the Convo for basketball.
Peden is the last and biggest hurdle to grouping ourselves with that group. I would rather be there than the MAC and I while UConn, Cincinnati and Memphis may not be P5 they are certainly in a better position moving forward than EMU, Ball State and Kent.

I've seen crazier things happen.

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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 8:44:33 AM 
The Optimist wrote:
GoCats105 wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
catfan28 wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
I wasn't talking about me when it comes to cost of attendance but for many folks who used to sit around me, they've already bailed. Add additional costs and it will be like a dam opening in terms of those folks exiting.


Goodness, pessimists abounding on here. From all indications, we have more season ticket holders and are making more $$ than ever. I don't know where they went, but they're probably sitting with me up in the Tower Club :)

And...the thought of paying NCAA athletes is the most asinine idea I have ever heard. 99% of all schools participating in the NCAA lose money...and LOTS of it. The perception of this being "big business" where the schools are making $$ off of the poor little athlete is crazy. NO ONE is making money save for the absolute blue-bloods (O$U, Texas, Nebraska, etc). Beyond that, everyone else is either in the red or milking student fees to make budget.

Adding the expense of cost of attendance will bankrupt the Indiana's and Georgia Tech's of the world just as much as it will the MAC. The only way it could work is if all non-revenue sports are dissolved and the big boys just play football and basketball. Even then, I'd wager 50% of them are still losing $$$.

The entire system is a money-losing proposition. Any opinions to the contrary are simply perpetuating a myth. I hope somebody starts to wake up before there are 5 schools left to compete while the rest are playing glorified intramurals.



I believe you are correct in that thePurdue's, Indiana's, of the college world will have more serious issues.


Those schools won't have nearly the trouble of those on the fringe like UC, UConn, ECU, Houston, etc. At least GT, Indiana and Purdue are already in conference getting the television dollars. That's money in the bank they can count on year-in and year-out.

Folks, Ohio and the MAC made their own bed with this by standing pat once expansion started. They knew where they stood in the pecking order and didn't do a thing. And it was probably for the better. If Ohio was serious about competing at that level, they would have invested heavily into Peden Stadium upgrades years ago.

But Ohio's investments into the IPF and Academic Center could bode well down the road if they are shuffled to a lower division. Personally, I wouldn't mind Ohio being an NCAA championship caliber team at a level on par with MAC, C-USA, Sun Belt, AAC or MWC schools. Sure it would be great to be at the level of the P5, but it ain't happening unless there is a MAJOR investment made. Like 100 million range or more. So, someone go play the lottery, win it, and then talk to President McDavis and Jim Schaus.


I think this post is pretty spot on.

Where I disagree is your grouping of the MAC, C-USA, Sun Belt, AAC and MWC together. To me, the AAC and MWC are on a different level than the MAC, C-USA, Sun Belt. With the IPF and Academic Center, I believe we have positioned ourselves to join schools like UConn and Cincinnati. That is a great thing. I want those two programs in the Convo for basketball.
Peden is the last and biggest hurdle to grouping ourselves with that group. I would rather be there than the MAC and I while UConn, Cincinnati and Memphis may not be P5 they are certainly in a better position moving forward than EMU, Ball State and Kent.


I'll agree there. The only thing I would point out is that the MAC is a helluva lot closer to the AAC and MWC than it is the P5, by a long shot. Besides, I can't imagine every school in the AAC or MWC is on the same level as SDSU, Boise St, ECU, UConn, UCF, and UC. I'd be interested to see where Ohio stands against schools like Utah State, Wyoming, Tulsa, SMU, etc.
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Casper71
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 1:16:44 PM 
Guys, you are all into the green kool aid with where OHIO FB will be in 10-20 years. I will repeat, OHIO DOES NOT HAVE THE FINANCIAL RESOURCES TO COMPETE with the Cincinnatis, UCONNs, etc let alone Ohio States and Alabamas. And, the entire MAC is in the same boat. It is just death by a million little cuts but it is coming. Very sad times IF the BIGG boys get their way. But, that is why they want it their way. They do not want to share the big revenues or lose to the little guys anymore. I guess that is undersandable from their perspective.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 1:22:34 PM 
Casper71 wrote:
... Very sad times WHEN the BIGG boys get their way. ...

I fixed that for you.

Last Edited: 10/30/2014 1:28:34 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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colobobcat66
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 1:55:08 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Casper71 wrote:
... Very sad times WHEN the BIGG boys get their way. ...

I fixed that for you.

I know you're sort of joking, but it really hasn't even started yet. The big boys will blow us away as they go totally professional. Hold on to your hats, it's going to get really bumpy.
Anyway, Ohio students are paying for, what-70% of the athletic budget? I'm maintained that that can't keep up as the cost of attendence goes up.
All this talk about getting all the attendence and income records for the MAC just shows how bad off the non P-5 are right now.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 2:11:35 PM 
colobobcat66 wrote:
I know you're sort of joking, but it really hasn't even started yet. ..

I agree completely. They got what they wanted, their own group, and now it will get worse. How fast depends on how much control the Indianas, Iowa States, and Wake Forests have. If the Texas-Ohio State-Alabamas have the power, I can't even imagine where it will end up.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 2:24:18 PM 
The funny thing here is that some here do not see how this will also effect Basketball and other sports.
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 2:30:01 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
The funny thing here is that some here do not see how this will also effect Basketball and other sports.


The difference with football is that it's such a giant money maker compared to other sports. Especially for those schools that seat 80,000+ people in their stadiums. That's eight games at the Convo! (if you use 10,000 as an average attendance)

The only way I can see the P5 regulating basketball the same way as football is if they break away from the NCAA altogether and create their own tournament in March. As much as the P5 schools whine about not enough spots in the tournament and all of the upsets, the NCAA loves that because that's how the NCAA makes so much money. The Tournament would not be as popular as it is today if it weren't for the teams like Ohio, Wichita St, Xavier, Gonzaga, Butler, Creighton, George Mason, etc.

Now, they could theoretically try to control this too, but I think it would be much, much harder unless they broke away.

Last Edited: 10/30/2014 2:31:35 PM by GoCats105
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 2:34:10 PM 
Obviously it's going to affect the other sports, too, and probably Basketball more than football. For example, suppose they add 10 more scholarships to football, how much impact will that have on the non-P5? By contrast, if they add 10 more scholarships to basketball, what will that do? The first wouldn't change things that much, the second would dramatically change things among the non-P5.

The key question is, "What do they want?", because now what they want is what they get.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Casper71
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 3:20:12 PM 
Thanks L.C., I was trying to be optimistic 'cause I know some people think I am always pessimistic!
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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 3:21:51 PM 
An NCAA tournament that was only open to a subsection of Division 1 is a tournament that I have absolutely no interest in.
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 3:41:06 PM 
It seems that most posters in this thread are taking a hard-eyed look at the future of intercollegiate athletics. I see some but not much evidence of posters peering through rose-tinted lenses.

I know that a certain university president who is in Indy now for a board meeting regards as constructive the dialogue in this thread.

Many if not most things in life move in cycles. Most of us, though, aren't smart enough to predict accurately the completion of those cycles. That said, the damage that will result from the P-5 getting to set their own rules might prove lasting but not necessarily permanent.

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 3:41:11 PM 
NIU isn't going to slip quietly into mid-major obscurity:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/chi-niu-athl...
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 4:07:25 PM 
Casper71 wrote:
Guys, you are all into the green kool aid with where OHIO FB will be in 10-20 years. I will repeat, OHIO DOES NOT HAVE THE FINANCIAL RESOURCES TO COMPETE with the Cincinnatis, UCONNs, etc let alone Ohio States and Alabamas. And, the entire MAC is in the same boat. It is just death by a million little cuts but it is coming. Very sad times IF the BIGG boys get their way. But, that is why they want it their way. They do not want to share the big revenues or lose to the little guys anymore. I guess that is undersandable from their perspective.


Ridiculous. We just built a rather nice IPF and the Academic Center is on the way. Those are the two key improvements necessary to go head to head with American programs. We don't have to spend dollar for dollar with Cincinnati to play in the same conference.

We needed an IPF
Check
We need an upgraded stadium. The academic center is a part of upgrading Peden to a level necessary to compete in the AAC.

I'm not even going to address basketball spending. We have significantly upped our spending in men's hoops. We are on a COMPLETELY different level of spending than the rest of the MAC. Literally, 1 million higher than anyone else. We would fit in fine in the AAC.

I've seen crazier things happen.

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 4:31:29 PM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
An NCAA tournament that was only open to a subsection of Division 1 is a tournament that I have absolutely no interest in.

I don't see the format changing, but with a modest increase in the number of P-5 basketball scholarships, P-5 would collect a higher portion of the quality athletes, and the non-P5 teams would be less competitive, and you'd have less upsets, and more money flowing to the P5. In they change it gradually, say, bump it one a year for 3 years, the change would happen slowly, and most people wouldn't notice.

C Money wrote:
NIU isn't going to slip quietly into mid-major obscurity:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/chi-niu-athl...

Their attendance is lower than Ohio's, yet they are going to 42k seating on the stadium?

Last Edited: 10/30/2014 4:32:43 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 4:32:09 PM 
The Optimist wrote:
We would fit in fine in the AAC.



Numbers, please.

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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 6:29:22 PM 
C Money wrote:
NIU isn't going to slip quietly into mid-major obscurity:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/chi-niu-athl...



That is perhaps the DUMBEST thing I've seen in a while. First off, where in the world are they getting the funding for that? A quick check of the numbers shows they generate less than $1M annually in fundraising. They will never get anywhere close to the goal.

Secondly, why expand the stadium to 42K??? They average 11K right now. Talk about a money pit.

Their AD will be gone by next year and the plans go up in smoke. Complete house of cards. I'd rather take Jim Schaus and our stability any day.
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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 6:45:10 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
C Money wrote:
NIU isn't going to slip quietly into mid-major obscurity:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/chi-niu-athl...



That is perhaps the DUMBEST thing I've seen in a while. First off, where in the world are they getting the funding for that? A quick check of the numbers shows they generate less than $1M annually in fundraising. They will never get anywhere close to the goal.

Secondly, why expand the stadium to 42K??? They average 11K right now. Talk about a money pit.

Their AD will be gone by next year and the plans go up in smoke. Complete house of cards. I'd rather take Jim Schaus and our stability any day.


I can't open the posted link at the moment, but if recall correctly from earlier today the money came from a private donor/sugar daddy type
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC supports paying full cost of attendance
   Posted: 10/30/2014 7:07:15 PM 
JSF wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
I'm not even going to address basketball spending. We have significantly upped our spending in men's hoops. We are on a COMPLETELY different level of spending than the rest of the MAC. Literally, 1 million higher than anyone else. We would fit in fine in the AAC.


Numbers, please.


http://www.bbstate.com/info/teams-hoopsbudget

$8,457,959 Memphis (AMER)
$7,293,895 Connecticut (AMER)
$6,582,998 Southern Methodist (AMER)
$6,172,290 Cincinnati (AMER)
$4,399,051 South Florida (AMER)
$4,125,712 Temple (AMER)
$3,920,631 Tulsa (AMER)
$3,222,448 Ohio (MAC) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
$2,849,058 Tulane (AMER)
$2,843,388 Central Florida (AMER)
$2,598,898 Houston (AMER)
$2,465,163 East Carolina (AMER)
$2,142,779 Buffalo (MAC)
$2,051,314 Akron (MAC)
$1,900,435 Miami (Oh.) (MAC)
$1,867,684 Western Michigan (MAC)
$1,855,599 Kent State (MAC)
$1,847,789 Toledo (MAC)
$1,666,104 Central Michigan (MAC)
$1,608,150 Eastern Michigan (MAC)
$1,561,611 Ball State (MAC)
$1,460,613 Bowling Green (MAC)
$1,447,289 Northern Illinois (MAC)

Last Edited: 10/30/2014 7:08:38 PM by The Optimist

I've seen crazier things happen.

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