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Topic:  RE: Three sorority's reinstated

Topic:  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 11/14/2019 7:45:55 AM 
finnOhio wrote:
So, timetable works something like this, right?

Nov 2018--Collin Wiant, an 18 year-old student, dies from matters related to hazing issues. Reports surface that Wiant was forced to drink to excess, get high on nitrous oxide (whippets), and had been subjected to Xanax by the fraternity so that he could do work for upperclassmen.

Nov 2018--Sigma Pi Epsilon receives a cease and desist letter from university as an investigation begins.

April 12, 2019--Sigma PI Epsilon is permanently banned by Ohio University. News is delivered by Dean of Students, Jenny Hall-Jones. From the investigation, it was determined that the fraternity engaged in forced calisthenics, whippings, beatings, forced drug use, underage drinking, physical threats. Despite many allegations being substantiated, a number of members of the fraternity repeatedly told the board that they 'did not recall' or 'could not remember' many events related to their hazing.

October 3, 2019--Ohio University, following allegations during the next pledge season from multiple fraternities, suspends all fraternities while they investigate practices throughout Greek life. This follows allegations of hazing by seven of the 15 fraternities. The university labels the move a 'proactive step' so that the IFC can reevaluate practices and redefine the Greek community at OHIO. It is reported that the seven allegations all came within a 48 hour period prior to the cease and desist letters being disseminated.

October 4, 2019--Parents of Collin Wiant come out in praise of step by university. “For them to shut it down is the right step until they can look every parent in the eye and tell them your student is safe being a part of our Greek system,” said Collin’s mother, Kathleen Wiant.

October 9, 2019--Ohio University suspends three sororities (Delta Zeta, Phi Beta Phi, and Chi Omega) following further hazing allegations.

October 19, 2019--The university announces additional suspensions after receiving more hazing allegations. University says that it has allegations of hazing reported from nine traditional fraternities, two business fraternities, three sororities, rugby team, and marching band.

October 19, 2019--Jack Schoenig, 19 year-old student at Penn State, dies outside a house belonging to fraternity Chi Phi. University suspends fraternity and begins investigation.

October 24, 2019--Antonio Tsialas, Cornell University freshman, is found dead in a gorge. University representatives place initial blame at fraternity party held off-campus.

October 25, 2019--Three weeks later, OHIO University lifts cease and desist order for all but three fraternities, one sorority, the rugby team and the marching band. Nine other organizations within the Greek community have some restrictions tied to their reinstitution. A total of five groups originally suspended (Phi Gamma Delta, Phi Delta Theta, Pi Kappa Alpha, Phi Kappa Tau, and Delta Tau Delta) are reinstated without any restrictions.

October 26, 2019--Reports of original allegations are made public. These include serious allegations of: seclusion to dark area with little food and water, forced alcohol consumption, forced nudity, broken bones due to violence, forced drug use). Others appear far more benign, such as requiring early wake-ups to find out weather, forced cleaning operations, and forcing men to take off their shirts.

November 7, 2019--San Diego State University freshman Dylan Hernandez is hospitalized due to events from a Phi Gamma Delta event. He dies three days later, surrounded by family.

November 12, 2019 (yesterday)--19 year-old Washington State freshman Samuel Martinez dies from alcohol-related death inside home of Alpha Tau Omega fraternity.

If this is the agreed upon timeline, then the following facts are also true.
--The suspension time for many of the fraternities was no more than 21 days. Sororities saw suspensions closer to just over two weeks.
--Allegations reported involved many cases of forced drug and alcohol usage, many by underage students.
--This came only six months after the permanent suspension of an OHIO University fraternity related to forced drug and alcohol usage that led to the death of a freshman pledge.
--Over the past month, American universities have seen the deaths of at least four freshmen who were in some ways involved in fraternity activities prior to their death (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2019/11/12/... /)

Those are the facts. It's the spin that comes from those facts that we are debating. As an OHIO University graduate and hopefully an OHIO University parent in the future, I am grateful that the actions were taken before another tragedy at OUr university. To receive seven allegations in such a short window of time (48 hours) would have me thinking of a drastic measure while I got my mind around everything. Those 21 days of suspension may prove to be a life-saver for fraternities as well as pledges. A seemingly stiff sentence was doled out (though really, it wasn't that severe in the long-run) and now fraternities are likely evaluating all of their current practices.

I am not a Greek Life hater nor did I find joy in the suspension. I am grateful for the action because I hope that this allows the IFC to think about what it is doing and hopefully make decisions that are keeping students safe from here on out.


People on both sides of the issue of whether suspending all members of the IFC,even those not accused of any "wrong doing" was warranted,have made their feelings known on the "JHJ suspends . . ." board.

My issue is what appears to be "selective enforcement" by O.U.

Because of their concerns,O.U. made the decision to suspend all IFC fraternities.
This included fraternities who weren't accused of anything.

O.K.,but why did O.U. limit this to IFC members only ?

Same thing,after 3 sororities were suspended for alleged hazing,why weren't all sororities suspended as well ?

As far as I know,to date no one from O.U. has explained their rationale for only suspending IFC members.







Last Edited: 11/14/2019 8:36:17 AM by rpbobcat

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 11/14/2019 10:02:34 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
finnOhio wrote:
So, timetable works something like this, right?

Nov 2018--Collin Wiant, an 18 year-old student, dies from matters related to hazing issues. Reports surface that Wiant was forced to drink to excess, get high on nitrous oxide (whippets), and had been subjected to Xanax by the fraternity so that he could do work for upperclassmen.

Nov 2018--Sigma Pi Epsilon receives a cease and desist letter from university as an investigation begins.

April 12, 2019--Sigma PI Epsilon is permanently banned by Ohio University. News is delivered by Dean of Students, Jenny Hall-Jones. From the investigation, it was determined that the fraternity engaged in forced calisthenics, whippings, beatings, forced drug use, underage drinking, physical threats. Despite many allegations being substantiated, a number of members of the fraternity repeatedly told the board that they 'did not recall' or 'could not remember' many events related to their hazing.

October 3, 2019--Ohio University, following allegations during the next pledge season from multiple fraternities, suspends all fraternities while they investigate practices throughout Greek life. This follows allegations of hazing by seven of the 15 fraternities. The university labels the move a 'proactive step' so that the IFC can reevaluate practices and redefine the Greek community at OHIO. It is reported that the seven allegations all came within a 48 hour period prior to the cease and desist letters being disseminated.

October 4, 2019--Parents of Collin Wiant come out in praise of step by university. “For them to shut it down is the right step until they can look every parent in the eye and tell them your student is safe being a part of our Greek system,” said Collin’s mother, Kathleen Wiant.

October 9, 2019--Ohio University suspends three sororities (Delta Zeta, Phi Beta Phi, and Chi Omega) following further hazing allegations.

October 19, 2019--The university announces additional suspensions after receiving more hazing allegations. University says that it has allegations of hazing reported from nine traditional fraternities, two business fraternities, three sororities, rugby team, and marching band.

October 19, 2019--Jack Schoenig, 19 year-old student at Penn State, dies outside a house belonging to fraternity Chi Phi. University suspends fraternity and begins investigation.

October 24, 2019--Antonio Tsialas, Cornell University freshman, is found dead in a gorge. University representatives place initial blame at fraternity party held off-campus.

October 25, 2019--Three weeks later, OHIO University lifts cease and desist order for all but three fraternities, one sorority, the rugby team and the marching band. Nine other organizations within the Greek community have some restrictions tied to their reinstitution. A total of five groups originally suspended (Phi Gamma Delta, Phi Delta Theta, Pi Kappa Alpha, Phi Kappa Tau, and Delta Tau Delta) are reinstated without any restrictions.

October 26, 2019--Reports of original allegations are made public. These include serious allegations of: seclusion to dark area with little food and water, forced alcohol consumption, forced nudity, broken bones due to violence, forced drug use). Others appear far more benign, such as requiring early wake-ups to find out weather, forced cleaning operations, and forcing men to take off their shirts.

November 7, 2019--San Diego State University freshman Dylan Hernandez is hospitalized due to events from a Phi Gamma Delta event. He dies three days later, surrounded by family.

November 12, 2019 (yesterday)--19 year-old Washington State freshman Samuel Martinez dies from alcohol-related death inside home of Alpha Tau Omega fraternity.

If this is the agreed upon timeline, then the following facts are also true.
--The suspension time for many of the fraternities was no more than 21 days. Sororities saw suspensions closer to just over two weeks.
--Allegations reported involved many cases of forced drug and alcohol usage, many by underage students.
--This came only six months after the permanent suspension of an OHIO University fraternity related to forced drug and alcohol usage that led to the death of a freshman pledge.
--Over the past month, American universities have seen the deaths of at least four freshmen who were in some ways involved in fraternity activities prior to their death (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2019/11/12/... /)

Those are the facts. It's the spin that comes from those facts that we are debating. As an OHIO University graduate and hopefully an OHIO University parent in the future, I am grateful that the actions were taken before another tragedy at OUr university. To receive seven allegations in such a short window of time (48 hours) would have me thinking of a drastic measure while I got my mind around everything. Those 21 days of suspension may prove to be a life-saver for fraternities as well as pledges. A seemingly stiff sentence was doled out (though really, it wasn't that severe in the long-run) and now fraternities are likely evaluating all of their current practices.

I am not a Greek Life hater nor did I find joy in the suspension. I am grateful for the action because I hope that this allows the IFC to think about what it is doing and hopefully make decisions that are keeping students safe from here on out.


People on both sides of the issue of whether suspending all members of the IFC,even those not accused of any "wrong doing" was warranted,have made their feelings known on the "JHJ suspends . . ." board.

My issue is what appears to be "selective enforcement" by O.U.

Because of their concerns,O.U. made the decision to suspend all IFC fraternities.
This included fraternities who weren't accused of anything.

O.K.,but why did O.U. limit this to IFC members only ?

Same thing,after 3 sororities were suspended for alleged hazing,why weren't all sororities suspended as well ?

As far as I know,to date no one from O.U. has explained their rationale for only suspending IFC members.









EXACTLY!!!!!
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 11/15/2019 2:36:32 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:

All our friends in Columbus, Cleveland and beyond have asked us ever since that happened, including our Homecoming quests who live in Huntington, "What the hell is going on at OU"? They came away with the sense that everything was going to hell in a hand-basket and that the hazing must all be so bad and so pervasive that practically every member of all Greek groups must be in peril for their lives. And, the same for the 110 and the rugby team. Though no one was really surprised about the rugby team! ;-) Now many of these friends had an inkling that that media-painted picture might actually be exaggerated, but that was their takeaway from the news reporting they had been exposed to. We had to personally reassure them that the university had over-reacted and the situation was not as bad as they had imagined them. And, of course, the ultimate responsibility for the incorrect picture the media was reporting rests with the absurd actions of the university officials charged with the responsibility of monitoring this type of behavior. A more targeted and focused reaction would have both been fairer to the groups involved and would also have put the problem in perspective for those who were reporting on it.


I'm really confused by the extreme reactions here.

I can understand your perspective very well and totally get the idea that a targeted reaction would have been more fair. What I don't understand at all is how completely unable others are to understand the actions the University took.

The timeline here (as laid out by Finn) is completely reasonable, and the actions not particularly drastic in the scheme of things. It's not that I expect everybody to agree with the steps taken, but I'm very surprised people are so unable to understand the rationale to the extent that they feel "heads must roll."

I really don't get the extreme reaction. Isn't there a middle ground of "I don't agree, but can understand?" that's far more reasonable? Why is it that everybody on one particular side of this seems to have flocked to the extreme?


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shabamon
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Location: Cincinnati
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 11/16/2019 2:15:59 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:

All our friends in Columbus, Cleveland and beyond have asked us ever since that happened, including our Homecoming quests who live in Huntington, "What the hell is going on at OU"? They came away with the sense that everything was going to hell in a hand-basket and that the hazing must all be so bad and so pervasive that practically every member of all Greek groups must be in peril for their lives. And, the same for the 110 and the rugby team. Though no one was really surprised about the rugby team! ;-) Now many of these friends had an inkling that that media-painted picture might actually be exaggerated, but that was their takeaway from the news reporting they had been exposed to. We had to personally reassure them that the university had over-reacted and the situation was not as bad as they had imagined them. And, of course, the ultimate responsibility for the incorrect picture the media was reporting rests with the absurd actions of the university officials charged with the responsibility of monitoring this type of behavior. A more targeted and focused reaction would have both been fairer to the groups involved and would also have put the problem in perspective for those who were reporting on it.


I'm really confused by the extreme reactions here.

I can understand your perspective very well and totally get the idea that a targeted reaction would have been more fair. What I don't understand at all is how completely unable others are to understand the actions the University took.

The timeline here (as laid out by Finn) is completely reasonable, and the actions not particularly drastic in the scheme of things. It's not that I expect everybody to agree with the steps taken, but I'm very surprised people are so unable to understand the rationale to the extent that they feel "heads must roll."

I really don't get the extreme reaction. Isn't there a middle ground of "I don't agree, but can understand?" that's far more reasonable? Why is it that everybody on one particular side of this seems to have flocked to the extreme?




It's the current state of American discourse. We don't want to learn or understand the other side. We want to be shitty and scream at people.

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/2/2019 7:09:30 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I'm really confused by the extreme reactions here.

I can understand your perspective very well and totally get the idea that a targeted reaction would have been more fair. What I don't understand at all is how completely unable others are to understand the actions the University took.

The timeline here (as laid out by Finn) is completely reasonable, and the actions not particularly drastic in the scheme of things. It's not that I expect everybody to agree with the steps taken, but I'm very surprised people are so unable to understand the rationale to the extent that they feel "heads must roll."

I really don't get the extreme reaction. Isn't there a middle ground of "I don't agree, but can understand?" that's far more reasonable? Why is it that everybody on one particular side of this seems to have flocked to the extreme?




Speaking of "extreme reactions",there's an article in today's The Post about several fraternity houses being vandalized over Thanksgiving Break.

Someone(s) spray painted the word "disband" on their houses.




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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/2/2019 10:56:05 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I'm really confused by the extreme reactions here.

I can understand your perspective very well and totally get the idea that a targeted reaction would have been more fair. What I don't understand at all is how completely unable others are to understand the actions the University took.

The timeline here (as laid out by Finn) is completely reasonable, and the actions not particularly drastic in the scheme of things. It's not that I expect everybody to agree with the steps taken, but I'm very surprised people are so unable to understand the rationale to the extent that they feel "heads must roll."

I really don't get the extreme reaction. Isn't there a middle ground of "I don't agree, but can understand?" that's far more reasonable? Why is it that everybody on one particular side of this seems to have flocked to the extreme?




Speaking of "extreme reactions",there's an article in today's The Post about several fraternity houses being vandalized over Thanksgiving Break.

Someone(s) spray painted the word "disband" on their houses.






And this:

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/12/ohio-univer...

and this:

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/12/campus-gree...

and this:

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/12/campus-gree...

and, according to unconfirmed reports from campus, the band gets "interviewed" this coming week.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/2/2019 12:14:57 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:


And this:

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/12/ohio-univer...




From the article:

"OU did not respond to a request for comment".

Why is that not surprising ?

I'm also waiting for JHJ and/or Nellis to issue a statement condemning the vandalism done to the fraternity houses.



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Bobcat110
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/2/2019 6:21:18 PM 
finnOhio wrote:
So, timetable works something like this, right?

Nov 2018--Collin Wiant, an 18 year-old student, dies from matters related to hazing issues. Reports surface that Wiant was forced to drink to excess, get high on nitrous oxide (whippets), and had been subjected to Xanax by the fraternity so that he could do work for upperclassmen.

Nov 2018--Sigma Pi Epsilon receives a cease and desist letter from university as an investigation begins.

April 12, 2019--Sigma PI Epsilon is permanently banned by Ohio University. News is delivered by Dean of Students, Jenny Hall-Jones. From the investigation, it was determined that the fraternity engaged in forced calisthenics, whippings, beatings, forced drug use, underage drinking, physical threats. Despite many allegations being substantiated, a number of members of the fraternity repeatedly told the board that they 'did not recall' or 'could not remember' many events related to their hazing.

October 3, 2019--Ohio University, following allegations during the next pledge season from multiple fraternities, suspends all fraternities while they investigate practices throughout Greek life. This follows allegations of hazing by seven of the 15 fraternities. The university labels the move a 'proactive step' so that the IFC can reevaluate practices and redefine the Greek community at OHIO. It is reported that the seven allegations all came within a 48 hour period prior to the cease and desist letters being disseminated.

October 4, 2019--Parents of Collin Wiant come out in praise of step by university. “For them to shut it down is the right step until they can look every parent in the eye and tell them your student is safe being a part of our Greek system,” said Collin’s mother, Kathleen Wiant.

October 9, 2019--Ohio University suspends three sororities (Delta Zeta, Phi Beta Phi, and Chi Omega) following further hazing allegations.

October 19, 2019--The university announces additional suspensions after receiving more hazing allegations. University says that it has allegations of hazing reported from nine traditional fraternities, two business fraternities, three sororities, rugby team, and marching band.

October 19, 2019--Jack Schoenig, 19 year-old student at Penn State, dies outside a house belonging to fraternity Chi Phi. University suspends fraternity and begins investigation.

October 24, 2019--Antonio Tsialas, Cornell University freshman, is found dead in a gorge. University representatives place initial blame at fraternity party held off-campus.

October 25, 2019--Three weeks later, OHIO University lifts cease and desist order for all but three fraternities, one sorority, the rugby team and the marching band. Nine other organizations within the Greek community have some restrictions tied to their reinstitution. A total of five groups originally suspended (Phi Gamma Delta, Phi Delta Theta, Pi Kappa Alpha, Phi Kappa Tau, and Delta Tau Delta) are reinstated without any restrictions.

October 26, 2019--Reports of original allegations are made public. These include serious allegations of: seclusion to dark area with little food and water, forced alcohol consumption, forced nudity, broken bones due to violence, forced drug use). Others appear far more benign, such as requiring early wake-ups to find out weather, forced cleaning operations, and forcing men to take off their shirts.

November 7, 2019--San Diego State University freshman Dylan Hernandez is hospitalized due to events from a Phi Gamma Delta event. He dies three days later, surrounded by family.

November 12, 2019 (yesterday)--19 year-old Washington State freshman Samuel Martinez dies from alcohol-related death inside home of Alpha Tau Omega fraternity.

If this is the agreed upon timeline, then the following facts are also true.
--The suspension time for many of the fraternities was no more than 21 days. Sororities saw suspensions closer to just over two weeks.
--Allegations reported involved many cases of forced drug and alcohol usage, many by underage students.
--This came only six months after the permanent suspension of an OHIO University fraternity related to forced drug and alcohol usage that led to the death of a freshman pledge.
--Over the past month, American universities have seen the deaths of at least four freshmen who were in some ways involved in fraternity activities prior to their death (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2019/11/12/... /)

Those are the facts. It's the spin that comes from those facts that we are debating. As an OHIO University graduate and hopefully an OHIO University parent in the future, I am grateful that the actions were taken before another tragedy at OUr university. To receive seven allegations in such a short window of time (48 hours) would have me thinking of a drastic measure while I got my mind around everything. Those 21 days of suspension may prove to be a life-saver for fraternities as well as pledges. A seemingly stiff sentence was doled out (though really, it wasn't that severe in the long-run) and now fraternities are likely evaluating all of their current practices.

I am not a Greek Life hater nor did I find joy in the suspension. I am grateful for the action because I hope that this allows the IFC to think about what it is doing and hopefully make decisions that are keeping students safe from here on out.


I feel bad for your kids if you truly are OK with your children giving up their basic rights because someone they don't even know, who was no more than another student at the same school they attended, broke the law or chose to associate with the wrong people. You're OK with someone anonymously making up allegations and getting organizations fucking shutdown after your kids put HUNDREDS of hours into every semester to be a part of them? I'm talking hard work practicing: 80+ hours of band camp, 25+ hours per week given up to practice and perform. Not hanging with the bros or sisters at the Cats Eye.

At least all of the Sororities and most of the Fraternities had national legal representation where they can force the university to dismiss their bogus allegations within a few weeks. Guess who doesn't have a team of lawyers to come in and assist them? Guess who has to tread lightly because we have an awesome band director and staff that no one wants to bring more hellfire down on? Guess what organization will stay on suspension well into next semester while the fraternities and sororities are back to their socializing?

This is bullshit. I have two daughters in the 110 and have had ZERO concerns with their safety or ability to act like adults. Yet, the university has taken their rights to be adults away. They cannot go out with their friends. They cannot have their friends over for dinner. They can't hangout in the cafeteria. They can't fucking hangout together anywhere. They have to do their hours of practices and performances and disburse.

The Seniors basically just lost their senior year. They couldn't even go out together after their Varsity concert to celebrate their last show. They can't have an awards banquet to recognize their senior year. Hell....My older daughter turns 21 on Monday and she's driving up to Columbus to go out with her family because she's not allowed to celebrate with her friends. $50,000 per year for my kids to go to that university and they're under lockdown. The university wouldn't even let them use social media until FIRE got involved and called Nellis out for 1st amendment violations.

Starting this week, every band member has to go in front of a hazing committee and be interrogated. There are 250 of them. It's the week before Finals! It's going to take them at least a few weeks into next semester before they can interrogate every band member. And I mean interrogation..."Do you drink alcohol?" "Do you believe alcohol is required to have a good time?" "Do you go uptown to bars"? Why is what my child chooses to do the university's damn business? Why is my child under trial? Why not just ask them if they've experienced or seen hazing? No? Ok..bye. Then, once interrogations are done, how much longer before they actually take the band off of suspension? All because of 3 hearsay allegations? "I heard from a girl who had a boyfriend in 2014 that something might have happened to a band jacket" is all it takes to kill an organization at Ohio University. And you're ok with that?

Last Edited: 12/2/2019 6:37:03 PM by Bobcat110

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/2/2019 6:52:02 PM 
Bobcat110 wrote:
finnOhio wrote:
So, timetable works something like this, right?

Nov 2018--Collin Wiant, an 18 year-old student, dies from matters related to hazing issues. Reports surface that Wiant was forced to drink to excess, get high on nitrous oxide (whippets), and had been subjected to Xanax by the fraternity so that he could do work for upperclassmen.

Nov 2018--Sigma Pi Epsilon receives a cease and desist letter from university as an investigation begins.

April 12, 2019--Sigma PI Epsilon is permanently banned by Ohio University. News is delivered by Dean of Students, Jenny Hall-Jones. From the investigation, it was determined that the fraternity engaged in forced calisthenics, whippings, beatings, forced drug use, underage drinking, physical threats. Despite many allegations being substantiated, a number of members of the fraternity repeatedly told the board that they 'did not recall' or 'could not remember' many events related to their hazing.

October 3, 2019--Ohio University, following allegations during the next pledge season from multiple fraternities, suspends all fraternities while they investigate practices throughout Greek life. This follows allegations of hazing by seven of the 15 fraternities. The university labels the move a 'proactive step' so that the IFC can reevaluate practices and redefine the Greek community at OHIO. It is reported that the seven allegations all came within a 48 hour period prior to the cease and desist letters being disseminated.

October 4, 2019--Parents of Collin Wiant come out in praise of step by university. “For them to shut it down is the right step until they can look every parent in the eye and tell them your student is safe being a part of our Greek system,” said Collin’s mother, Kathleen Wiant.

October 9, 2019--Ohio University suspends three sororities (Delta Zeta, Phi Beta Phi, and Chi Omega) following further hazing allegations.

October 19, 2019--The university announces additional suspensions after receiving more hazing allegations. University says that it has allegations of hazing reported from nine traditional fraternities, two business fraternities, three sororities, rugby team, and marching band.

October 19, 2019--Jack Schoenig, 19 year-old student at Penn State, dies outside a house belonging to fraternity Chi Phi. University suspends fraternity and begins investigation.

October 24, 2019--Antonio Tsialas, Cornell University freshman, is found dead in a gorge. University representatives place initial blame at fraternity party held off-campus.

October 25, 2019--Three weeks later, OHIO University lifts cease and desist order for all but three fraternities, one sorority, the rugby team and the marching band. Nine other organizations within the Greek community have some restrictions tied to their reinstitution. A total of five groups originally suspended (Phi Gamma Delta, Phi Delta Theta, Pi Kappa Alpha, Phi Kappa Tau, and Delta Tau Delta) are reinstated without any restrictions.

October 26, 2019--Reports of original allegations are made public. These include serious allegations of: seclusion to dark area with little food and water, forced alcohol consumption, forced nudity, broken bones due to violence, forced drug use). Others appear far more benign, such as requiring early wake-ups to find out weather, forced cleaning operations, and forcing men to take off their shirts.

November 7, 2019--San Diego State University freshman Dylan Hernandez is hospitalized due to events from a Phi Gamma Delta event. He dies three days later, surrounded by family.

November 12, 2019 (yesterday)--19 year-old Washington State freshman Samuel Martinez dies from alcohol-related death inside home of Alpha Tau Omega fraternity.

If this is the agreed upon timeline, then the following facts are also true.
--The suspension time for many of the fraternities was no more than 21 days. Sororities saw suspensions closer to just over two weeks.
--Allegations reported involved many cases of forced drug and alcohol usage, many by underage students.
--This came only six months after the permanent suspension of an OHIO University fraternity related to forced drug and alcohol usage that led to the death of a freshman pledge.
--Over the past month, American universities have seen the deaths of at least four freshmen who were in some ways involved in fraternity activities prior to their death (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2019/11/12/... /)

Those are the facts. It's the spin that comes from those facts that we are debating. As an OHIO University graduate and hopefully an OHIO University parent in the future, I am grateful that the actions were taken before another tragedy at OUr university. To receive seven allegations in such a short window of time (48 hours) would have me thinking of a drastic measure while I got my mind around everything. Those 21 days of suspension may prove to be a life-saver for fraternities as well as pledges. A seemingly stiff sentence was doled out (though really, it wasn't that severe in the long-run) and now fraternities are likely evaluating all of their current practices.

I am not a Greek Life hater nor did I find joy in the suspension. I am grateful for the action because I hope that this allows the IFC to think about what it is doing and hopefully make decisions that are keeping students safe from here on out.


I feel bad for your kids if you truly are OK with your children giving up their basic rights because someone they don't even know, who was no more than another student at the same school they attended, broke the law or chose to associate with the wrong people. You're OK with someone anonymously making up allegations and getting organizations fucking shutdown after your kids put HUNDREDS of hours into every semester to be a part of them? I'm talking hard work practicing: 80+ hours of band camp, 25+ hours per week given up to practice and perform. Not hanging with the bros or sisters at the Cats Eye.

At least all of the Sororities and most of the Fraternities had national legal representation where they can force the university to dismiss their bogus allegations within a few weeks. Guess who doesn't have a team of lawyers to come in and assist them? Guess who has to tread lightly because we have an awesome band director and staff that no one wants to bring more hellfire down on? Guess what organization will stay on suspension well into next semester while the fraternities and sororities are back to their socializing?

This is bullshit. I have two daughters in the 110 and have had ZERO concerns with their safety or ability to act like adults. Yet, the university has taken their rights to be adults away. They cannot go out with their friends. They cannot have their friends over for dinner. They can't hangout in the cafeteria. They can't fucking hangout together anywhere. They have to do their hours of practices and performances and disburse.

The Seniors basically just lost their senior year. They couldn't even go out together after their Varsity concert to celebrate their last show. They can't have an awards banquet to recognize their senior year. Hell....My older daughter turns 21 on Monday and she's driving up to Columbus to go out with her family because she's not allowed to celebrate with her friends. $50,000 per year for my kids to go to that university and they're under lockdown. The university wouldn't even let them use social media until FIRE got involved and called Nellis out for 1st amendment violations.

Starting this week, every band member has to go in front of a hazing committee and be interrogated. There are 250 of them. It's the week before Finals! It's going to take them at least a few weeks into next semester before they can interrogate every band member. And I mean interrogation..."Do you drink alcohol?" "Do you believe alcohol is required to have a good time?" "Do you go uptown to bars"? Why is what my child chooses to do the university's damn business? Why is my child under trial? Why not just ask them if they've experienced or seen hazing? No? Ok..bye. Then, once interrogations are done, how much longer before they actually take the band off of suspension? All because of 3 hearsay allegations? "I heard from a girl who had a boyfriend in 2014 that something might have happened to a band jacket" is all it takes to kill an organization at Ohio University. And you're ok with that?


Any time a post starts with "I feel sorry for your kids" you know it's gonna be reasonable and balanced.

For the life of me, I'll never understand how anybody could read a reasoned take like finn's and decide that warrants their "feeling sorry for" his children. Whatever happened to "I understand where you're coming from, but disagree"? Take a deep breath, my man. Bummer what your kids are going through, but it doesn't warrant criticizing the parenting of a complete stranger because he disagrees with you.

Last Edited: 12/2/2019 7:00:10 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/2/2019 7:13:49 PM 
Who is conducting these "interrogations?" Administrators from student life or some other trained individuals?
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Bobcat110
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/2/2019 10:45:16 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Who is conducting these "interrogations?" Administrators from student life or some other trained individuals?


“University Hearing Board” - led by faculty and staff who attend one full day of training. Students may apply, but I haven’t heard if any are participating.

All members of suspended organizations must attend, but they are not required to answer questions. Fraternity and sorority members were permitted to have National or Alumni Advisors present. Advisors cannot act in a legal capacity or answer questions, but could be there for guidance.

https://www.ohio.edu/student-affairs/community-standards
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/3/2019 8:08:16 AM 
Bobcat110 wrote:

All members of suspended organizations must attend, but they are not required to answer questions. Fraternity and sorority members were permitted to have National or Alumni Advisors present. Advisors cannot act in a legal capacity or answer questions, but could be there for guidance.

https://www.ohio.edu/student-affairs/community-standards


If that's true, I'm not sure how well-known it is. I believe some fraternity members are being interrogated without any "advisors" present.

From what I understand, interrogations are being handled by administrators.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/3/2019 9:36:11 AM 
Bobcat110 wrote:


Starting this week, every band member has to go in front of a hazing committee and be interrogated. There are 250 of them. It's the week before Finals! It's going to take them at least a few weeks into next semester before they can interrogate every band member. And I mean interrogation..."Do you drink alcohol?" "Do you believe alcohol is required to have a good time?" "Do you go uptown to bars"? Why is what my child chooses to do the university's damn business? Why is my child under trial? Why not just ask them if they've experienced or seen hazing? No? Ok..bye. Then, once interrogations are done, how much longer before they actually take the band off of suspension? All because of 3 hearsay allegations? "I heard from a girl who had a boyfriend in 2014 that something might have happened to a band jacket" is all it takes to kill an organization at Ohio University. And you're ok with that?


Maybe someone should get in touch with the ACLU !

The fact that the 110 is part of the university doesn't allow the members to be asked inappropriate questions.

This is supposed to be an investigation into specific allegations of hazing.

The only thing the members of the 110 should be asked about are their knowledge of the specific allegations.

Anything else,like "do you drink alcohol ?",is none of O.U.'s business.

From everything that's been said about this "investigation",fishing expedition and Kangaroo Court come to mind.


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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/3/2019 9:51:57 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat110 wrote:


Starting this week, every band member has to go in front of a hazing committee and be interrogated. There are 250 of them. It's the week before Finals! It's going to take them at least a few weeks into next semester before they can interrogate every band member. And I mean interrogation..."Do you drink alcohol?" "Do you believe alcohol is required to have a good time?" "Do you go uptown to bars"? Why is what my child chooses to do the university's damn business? Why is my child under trial? Why not just ask them if they've experienced or seen hazing? No? Ok..bye. Then, once interrogations are done, how much longer before they actually take the band off of suspension? All because of 3 hearsay allegations? "I heard from a girl who had a boyfriend in 2014 that something might have happened to a band jacket" is all it takes to kill an organization at Ohio University. And you're ok with that?


Maybe someone should get in touch with the ACLU !

The fact that the 110 is part of the university doesn't allow the members to be asked inappropriate questions.

This is supposed to be an investigation into specific allegations of hazing.

The only thing the members of the 110 should be asked about are their knowledge of the specific allegations.

Anything else,like "do you drink alcohol ?",is none of O.U.'s business.

From everything that's been said about this "investigation",fishing expedition and Kangaroo Court come to mind.




The accusations against the 110 are about a culture that encourages drinking and shuns those that don't participate. Aren't questions about the members drinking and whether they feel pressured directly related to the accusations?

Further, you don't think the Ohio University has the right to ask questions about how an official, Ohio University organization that receives funding from the state of Ohio operates? Or the culture it fosters?

And that's putting aside the fact that we have literally no idea what is going to be asked of members of the 110. We have a disgruntled parent -- one who two posts ago irrationally criticized the parenting of another poster here -- hearing second or third hand from his kids what's being asked.

By the way, it's hilariously ironic that the same poster here ranting about how "second hand accusations are enough to take down an organization at OU" is coming here to post second hand information to rebut those accusations.

One of the accusations against the 110 came from a parent. Are we supposed to find that less credible than Bobcat110s posts here for some reason? What's the difference there, exactly?

Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug. Why can't people acknowledge what they don't know? And again, what's with the overwhelming urge of people to jump to extremes here. It's truly baffling.

We don't know anything. We don't know enough to call the ACLU, call this a Kangaroo court, vandalize frat houses, or insult the parenting of other posters here.




Last Edited: 12/3/2019 9:57:18 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/3/2019 10:10:17 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

We don't know anything. We don't know enough to call the ACLU, call this a Kangaroo court, vandalize frat houses, or insult the parenting of other posters here.


We do know one thing: That the university has shut down (temporarily, perhaps) organizations based upon accusations.

If you mean we don't know the extent of the actual offenses, you're right.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/3/2019 10:31:07 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

We don't know anything. We don't know enough to call the ACLU, call this a Kangaroo court, vandalize frat houses, or insult the parenting of other posters here.


We do know one thing: That the university has shut down (temporarily, perhaps) organizations based upon accusations.

If you mean we don't know the extent of the actual offenses, you're right.


Totally agree.

So given what we know, should we call the ACLU? Is this a violation of civil liberties?
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/3/2019 10:38:37 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

We don't know anything. We don't know enough to call the ACLU, call this a Kangaroo court, vandalize frat houses, or insult the parenting of other posters here.


We do know one thing: That the university has shut down (temporarily, perhaps) organizations based upon accusations.

If you mean we don't know the extent of the actual offenses, you're right.


Totally agree.

So given what we know, should we call the ACLU? Is this a violation of civil liberties?


It could be. The directive to not allow fraternity members--for example--to associate with one another certainly could be. I don't have that directive in front of me, so not sure how it is worded.

That said, I wouldn't call the ACLU. But I would certainly call Dr. Nellis.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/3/2019 10:48:22 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

We don't know anything. We don't know enough to call the ACLU, call this a Kangaroo court, vandalize frat houses, or insult the parenting of other posters here.


We do know one thing: That the university has shut down (temporarily, perhaps) organizations based upon accusations.

If you mean we don't know the extent of the actual offenses, you're right.


Totally agree.

So given what we know, should we call the ACLU? Is this a violation of civil liberties?


It could be. The directive to not allow fraternity members--for example--to associate with one another certainly could be. I don't have that directive in front of me, so not sure how it is worded.

That said, I wouldn't call the ACLU. But I would certainly call Dr. Nellis.


Wasn't the directive that they couldn't hold official events? And don't you think we should know how these things are worded before jumping to the ACLU?

My broader question is still just: why the insistence to flock to extremes here?

There's a very logical explanation for all of this. Not liking that explanation isn't cause to call the ACLU or insult others parenting. I'm really just sort of baffled by the lack of reasonableness. Not just here, but in our culture in general.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/3/2019 10:52:16 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

We don't know anything. We don't know enough to call the ACLU, call this a Kangaroo court, vandalize frat houses, or insult the parenting of other posters here.


We do know one thing: That the university has shut down (temporarily, perhaps) organizations based upon accusations.

If you mean we don't know the extent of the actual offenses, you're right.


Totally agree.

So given what we know, should we call the ACLU? Is this a violation of civil liberties?


It could be. The directive to not allow fraternity members--for example--to associate with one another certainly could be. I don't have that directive in front of me, so not sure how it is worded.

That said, I wouldn't call the ACLU. But I would certainly call Dr. Nellis.


Wasn't the directive that they couldn't hold official events? And don't you think we should know how these things are worded before jumping to the ACLU?

My broader question is still just: why the insistence to flock to extremes here?

There's a very logical explanation for all of this. Not liking that explanation isn't cause to call the ACLU or insult others parenting. I'm really just sort of baffled by the lack of reasonableness. Not just here, but in our culture in general.


As I posted,the purpose of the 110 interviews is supposed to be to investigate specific allegations of hazing or other violations of the Code of Conduct made against the 110.

That's what the interview questions should be limited to.

If, as Bobcat110 posted, the band members are being asked questions like "do you drink alcohol ?",that has nothing to do the specific allegations.

Asking an unrelated question like that should be out of bounds and the person being interviewed should have someone with them to advise them accordingly.

Since the 110 doesn't have a national organization like the frats and sororities,the ACLU seemed like a good option.




Last Edited: 12/3/2019 11:00:55 AM by rpbobcat

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/3/2019 10:56:57 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

There's a very logical explanation for all of this. Not liking that explanation isn't cause to call the ACLU or insult others parenting. I'm really just sort of baffled by the lack of reasonableness. Not just here, but in our culture in general.


You fail to acknowledge the lack of "reasonableness" from the University in the first place, which is their decision to punish based upon accusations. We've been all through that debate. No need to rehash it again. But that is the major sticking point and it still exists, even after the publishing of the offenses by the University.

As you mentioned above, we can agree to disagree. But the outrage shown by the poster above is based--I assume--on this unreasonableness to presume all are guilty and should be punished. Some, including you, have attempted to diminish the "punishment" as not much of a punishment. That doesn't change the opinion of those who are impacted.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/3/2019 11:04:35 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

There's a very logical explanation for all of this. Not liking that explanation isn't cause to call the ACLU or insult others parenting. I'm really just sort of baffled by the lack of reasonableness. Not just here, but in our culture in general.


You fail to acknowledge the lack of "reasonableness" from the University in the first place, which is their decision to punish based upon accusations. We've been all through that debate. No need to rehash it again. But that is the major sticking point and it still exists, even after the publishing of the offenses by the University.

As you mentioned above, we can agree to disagree. But the outrage shown by the poster above is based--I assume--on this unreasonableness to presume all are guilty and should be punished. Some, including you, have attempted to diminish the "punishment" as not much of a punishment. That doesn't change the opinion of those who are impacted.


Right. We're in total agreement here.

I'm just curious how from that there are people at such an extreme end of the scale here. Isn't the obvious answer somewhere in the middle?

Instead we're talking about the ACLU, insulting each other's parenting, calling for firings and positing conspiracy theories. Why?

Last Edited: 12/3/2019 11:21:52 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/3/2019 11:51:04 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


Instead we're talking about the ACLU,



Yes,I'm talking about the ACLU.

I had to go through a disciplinary hearing when I was a student at O.U..

It was me being "interviewed" by several administrators.

It was,to be polite,"one sided".

They also tried to be as intimidating as they could,including threatening expulsion.

I had worked with lawyers since I started working with my Grandfather in Grammar School.
So I intended to bring one to the hearing.
However,I was told I could not have legal representation.

I was also told there would be no transcript.

I did talk to a couple lawyers who were friends of my family before the hearing.
They gave me some really goo advice on how to handle the situation,including counting to 5 before answering a question.

Actually,over time,several lawyers have made that same recommendation.

Based on my discussions,I politely refused to answer a number of the questions that were asked.

The interviews with the 110 are quasi legal proceedings.

I would think assuring that a student's rights are protected would be paramount
to everyone.

I'd also like to know if the interviews are being audio/video recorded or if there will be someone there (court reporter) to take verbatim minutes.

You are talking about a proceeding that can potentially impact the future of not only individual band members,but the 110 as a whole.

I am particularly concerned,given the seriousness of this matter,and the "heavy handedness" of the University.

Last Edited: 12/3/2019 11:52:51 AM by rpbobcat

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/3/2019 11:52:31 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Isn't the obvious answer somewhere in the middle?

Instead we're talking about the ACLU, insulting each other's parenting, calling for firings and positing conspiracy theories. Why?


Mostly because when people feel "wronged" they lash out. By the way, didn't Finn say he was a prospective parent, not yet a parent? Just clarifying. Personally, I think the 110 parent's comments above are pretty tame. He didn't seem to attack Finn personally. Clearly, he feels his daughter's do not deserve the punishment they've been given. I'd say he feels offended by the attempt at diminishing that punishment. Just a hunch. But in that, I agree with him. His daughters shouldn't be punished for something they didn't do. Nor should they be questioned about unrelated personal stuff, like whether or not they drink, etc. UNLESS, there's hard evidence that would support that line of questioning. I suspect that hard evidence is not there.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/3/2019 12:19:46 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Isn't the obvious answer somewhere in the middle?

Instead we're talking about the ACLU, insulting each other's parenting, calling for firings and positing conspiracy theories. Why?


Mostly because when people feel "wronged" they lash out. By the way, didn't Finn say he was a prospective parent, not yet a parent? Just clarifying. Personally, I think the 110 parent's comments above are pretty tame. He didn't seem to attack Finn personally. Clearly, he feels his daughter's do not deserve the punishment they've been given. I'd say he feels offended by the attempt at diminishing that punishment. Just a hunch. But in that, I agree with him. His daughters shouldn't be punished for something they didn't do. Nor should they be questioned about unrelated personal stuff, like whether or not they drink, etc. UNLESS, there's hard evidence that would support that line of questioning. I suspect that hard evidence is not there.


+1

Seems from the articles posted above that the ACLU is not needed, other groups have already been called in to protest the violation of students rights. Which of course seems to be o.k., for some!

Last Edited: 12/3/2019 12:28:27 PM by BillyTheCat

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Three sorority's reinstated
   Posted: 12/3/2019 12:22:38 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Isn't the obvious answer somewhere in the middle?

Instead we're talking about the ACLU, insulting each other's parenting, calling for firings and positing conspiracy theories. Why?


Mostly because when people feel "wronged" they lash out. By the way, didn't Finn say he was a prospective parent, not yet a parent? Just clarifying. Personally, I think the 110 parent's comments above are pretty tame. He didn't seem to attack Finn personally. Clearly, he feels his daughter's do not deserve the punishment they've been given. I'd say he feels offended by the attempt at diminishing that punishment. Just a hunch. But in that, I agree with him. His daughters shouldn't be punished for something they didn't do. Nor should they be questioned about unrelated personal stuff, like whether or not they drink, etc. UNLESS, there's hard evidence that would support that line of questioning. I suspect that hard evidence is not there.


I took it to mean that Finn is a parent and a hopeful OU parent. I.e. that his kids aren't yet college aged.

As for whether or not his daughters should be punished, how can you extract the individual from the organization? It seems that you're basically saying that his daughter's right to participate in the 110 and social activities that surround it supercede the University's right to suspend the organization based on their concern around the organization's behavior. It's a University run organization.

Bobcat110 feels his children don't deserve the punishment. Another parent made a complaint because her son, who didn't drink, didn't feel comfortable being part of the 110 and he felt that lack of drinking was the reason behind that.

So where does that leave us? From your perspective, it seems you feel nothing can be done. An investigation is a civil rights violation and a temporary suspension punishes innocent people. The University feels differently.

Do you really think the University's stance here is so indefensible as to rise to the level that warrants "heads rolling?"

That's all I'm really saying here. Is that isn't there a whole bunch of room in the middle here that we should all be inhabiting?

Last Edited: 12/3/2019 12:29:20 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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