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Topic:  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely

Topic:  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
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Robert Fox
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Member Since: 11/16/2004
Location: Knoxville, TN
Post Count: 2,039

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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/8/2019 2:22:17 PM 
Certainly not saying that. There should be standards and all groups, clubs, teams, etc should be held to those standards. No problem with that. My problem is in the application of these suspensions, which in nearly half the cases, is nothing more than arbitrary. Even in the cases where accusations exist, it is only fair that the accused understand the accusations and the details involved. If there is a defense, they should be allowed to mount one. The only way they can do that, is if they know what they're being accused of doing. And that goes beyond the vague nature of the JHJ letter.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/8/2019 4:21:41 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Certainly not saying that. There should be standards and all groups, clubs, teams, etc should be held to those standards. No problem with that. My problem is in the application of these suspensions, which in nearly half the cases, is nothing more than arbitrary. Even in the cases where accusations exist, it is only fair that the accused understand the accusations and the details involved. If there is a defense, they should be allowed to mount one. The only way they can do that, is if they know what they're being accused of doing. And that goes beyond the vague nature of the JHJ letter.


That fair, I think.

From my perspective, I can only assume the University has shared additional details with the fraternities. The letter stated as much and told Fraternities how to get further insight. I'd be really surprised if no other details were share privately.

But the fact that you and I don't know any details strikes me as a good thing.

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David E Brightbill
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/8/2019 8:54:05 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Shame, your disdain for fraternities is quite evident. So I had a bad meal at Casa tonight (I didn't) and I complain. Tomorrow morning based on that subjective and unsubstantiated complaint, all 15 restaurants in Athens get closed down. Yep, that makes lots of sense kind of like taking recess from the whole class because one kid acted up. That will teach the little bastards.


Did you die? Was it because of a procedure shared by all 15 restaurants? Because shutting down all 15 restaurants temporarily to investigate said procedure might make sense.

And while you think my stance here is about "disdain" for frats, your first reply was about homecoming alums.

This behavior killed somebody. Let's apply a tiny bit of perspective. A temporary shut down until an investigation is completed is completely reasonable.

Even before homecoming.


The tragedy was last year and that fraternity is now gone. Since when do we hand out punishment before there has been an investigation. Even the OU PD spokesperson has said there is no evidence of a crime at this point. As for Homecoming, this not only affects the 15 fraternities but their partner sororities during a time of philanthropic activity. And there is significant research that supports the fact that as a group those engaged in their college or university (Greek life being one of those forms of engagement) are more likely to give back to their alma mater than a GDI.

And from the latest ANews article:

In another post in the same group, Scott Haag, a ’94 OU graduate, condemned the suspension of all 15 traditional fraternities, saying he’s “ashamed to be an Ohio University Bobcat thanks to the heavy-handed ineptitude of the current Dean of Students Jenny Hall-Jones…”

Haag added that he won’t contribute any more money to the university or attend Homecoming next weekend (Oct. 18-19) unless President Duane Nellis or the OU Board of Trustees “reign in” Hall-Jones.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/local/ou-moves-to-suspend...


Might be good to read today’s Post editorial to get student perspective
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/8/2019 9:27:53 PM 
David E Brightbill wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Shame, your disdain for fraternities is quite evident. So I had a bad meal at Casa tonight (I didn't) and I complain. Tomorrow morning based on that subjective and unsubstantiated complaint, all 15 restaurants in Athens get closed down. Yep, that makes lots of sense kind of like taking recess from the whole class because one kid acted up. That will teach the little bastards.


Did you die? Was it because of a procedure shared by all 15 restaurants? Because shutting down all 15 restaurants temporarily to investigate said procedure might make sense.

And while you think my stance here is about "disdain" for frats, your first reply was about homecoming alums.

This behavior killed somebody. Let's apply a tiny bit of perspective. A temporary shut down until an investigation is completed is completely reasonable.

Even before homecoming.


The tragedy was last year and that fraternity is now gone. Since when do we hand out punishment before there has been an investigation. Even the OU PD spokesperson has said there is no evidence of a crime at this point. As for Homecoming, this not only affects the 15 fraternities but their partner sororities during a time of philanthropic activity. And there is significant research that supports the fact that as a group those engaged in their college or university (Greek life being one of those forms of engagement) are more likely to give back to their alma mater than a GDI.

And from the latest ANews article:

In another post in the same group, Scott Haag, a ’94 OU graduate, condemned the suspension of all 15 traditional fraternities, saying he’s “ashamed to be an Ohio University Bobcat thanks to the heavy-handed ineptitude of the current Dean of Students Jenny Hall-Jones…”

Haag added that he won’t contribute any more money to the university or attend Homecoming next weekend (Oct. 18-19) unless President Duane Nellis or the OU Board of Trustees “reign in” Hall-Jones.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/local/ou-moves-to-suspend...


Might be good to read today’s Post editorial to get student perspective


I'd hardly consider the opinion of three women who are obviously anti-fraternity "student opinion." From what source or experience do they base this statement of theirs - "The allegations do not come as a surprise to many students. Hazing, in some form, is expected when it comes to pledging a fraternity."

Last Edited: 10/8/2019 9:30:46 PM by Alan Swank
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David E Brightbill
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Member Since: 9/5/2005
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/8/2019 9:34:15 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
David E Brightbill wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Shame, your disdain for fraternities is quite evident. So I had a bad meal at Casa tonight (I didn't) and I complain. Tomorrow morning based on that subjective and unsubstantiated complaint, all 15 restaurants in Athens get closed down. Yep, that makes lots of sense kind of like taking recess from the whole class because one kid acted up. That will teach the little bastards.


Did you die? Was it because of a procedure shared by all 15 restaurants? Because shutting down all 15 restaurants temporarily to investigate said procedure might make sense.

And while you think my stance here is about "disdain" for frats, your first reply was about homecoming alums.

This behavior killed somebody. Let's apply a tiny bit of perspective. A temporary shut down until an investigation is completed is completely reasonable.

Even before homecoming.


The tragedy was last year and that fraternity is now gone. Since when do we hand out punishment before there has been an investigation. Even the OU PD spokesperson has said there is no evidence of a crime at this point. As for Homecoming, this not only affects the 15 fraternities but their partner sororities during a time of philanthropic activity. And there is significant research that supports the fact that as a group those engaged in their college or university (Greek life being one of those forms of engagement) are more likely to give back to their alma mater than a GDI.

And from the latest ANews article:

In another post in the same group, Scott Haag, a ’94 OU graduate, condemned the suspension of all 15 traditional fraternities, saying he’s “ashamed to be an Ohio University Bobcat thanks to the heavy-handed ineptitude of the current Dean of Students Jenny Hall-Jones…”

Haag added that he won’t contribute any more money to the university or attend Homecoming next weekend (Oct. 18-19) unless President Duane Nellis or the OU Board of Trustees “reign in” Hall-Jones.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/local/ou-moves-to-suspend...


Might be good to read today’s Post editorial to get student perspective


I'd hardly consider the opinion of three women who are obviously anti-fraternity "student opinion." From what source or experience do they base this statement of theirs - "The allegations do not come as a surprise to many students. Hazing, in some form, is expected when it comes to pledging a fraternity."


Certainly no more biased than you are
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/8/2019 9:51:43 PM 
David E Brightbill wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
David E Brightbill wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Shame, your disdain for fraternities is quite evident. So I had a bad meal at Casa tonight (I didn't) and I complain. Tomorrow morning based on that subjective and unsubstantiated complaint, all 15 restaurants in Athens get closed down. Yep, that makes lots of sense kind of like taking recess from the whole class because one kid acted up. That will teach the little bastards.


Did you die? Was it because of a procedure shared by all 15 restaurants? Because shutting down all 15 restaurants temporarily to investigate said procedure might make sense.

And while you think my stance here is about "disdain" for frats, your first reply was about homecoming alums.

This behavior killed somebody. Let's apply a tiny bit of perspective. A temporary shut down until an investigation is completed is completely reasonable.

Even before homecoming.


The tragedy was last year and that fraternity is now gone. Since when do we hand out punishment before there has been an investigation. Even the OU PD spokesperson has said there is no evidence of a crime at this point. As for Homecoming, this not only affects the 15 fraternities but their partner sororities during a time of philanthropic activity. And there is significant research that supports the fact that as a group those engaged in their college or university (Greek life being one of those forms of engagement) are more likely to give back to their alma mater than a GDI.

And from the latest ANews article:

In another post in the same group, Scott Haag, a ’94 OU graduate, condemned the suspension of all 15 traditional fraternities, saying he’s “ashamed to be an Ohio University Bobcat thanks to the heavy-handed ineptitude of the current Dean of Students Jenny Hall-Jones…”

Haag added that he won’t contribute any more money to the university or attend Homecoming next weekend (Oct. 18-19) unless President Duane Nellis or the OU Board of Trustees “reign in” Hall-Jones.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/local/ou-moves-to-suspend...


Might be good to read today’s Post editorial to get student perspective


I'd hardly consider the opinion of three women who are obviously anti-fraternity "student opinion." From what source or experience do they base this statement of theirs - "The allegations do not come as a surprise to many students. Hazing, in some form, is expected when it comes to pledging a fraternity."


Certainly no more biased than you are


But I'm not writing an opinion for the school newspaper or making the point that their opinion represents the opinion of the OU student body.

This thing has been botched from the beginning. It would have been very easy to cite in general terms which of the six areas that are defined as hazing had been violated. Not one person on here is defending hazing or insinuating that it is acceptable. When it involves drugs, alcohol or physical harm, I think we all agree that that is unacceptable and should be handled with swift but just sanctions. But in this day and age when the pendulum has swung so far left that simply challenging someone brings on calls for "safe spaces", anonymous charges of a general nature are tough to take.

Last Edited: 10/8/2019 9:53:31 PM by Alan Swank
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Post Count: 3,280

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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/9/2019 4:55:09 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
David E Brightbill wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
David E Brightbill wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Shame, your disdain for fraternities is quite evident. So I had a bad meal at Casa tonight (I didn't) and I complain. Tomorrow morning based on that subjective and unsubstantiated complaint, all 15 restaurants in Athens get closed down. Yep, that makes lots of sense kind of like taking recess from the whole class because one kid acted up. That will teach the little bastards.


Did you die? Was it because of a procedure shared by all 15 restaurants? Because shutting down all 15 restaurants temporarily to investigate said procedure might make sense.

And while you think my stance here is about "disdain" for frats, your first reply was about homecoming alums.

This behavior killed somebody. Let's apply a tiny bit of perspective. A temporary shut down until an investigation is completed is completely reasonable.

Even before homecoming.


The tragedy was last year and that fraternity is now gone. Since when do we hand out punishment before there has been an investigation. Even the OU PD spokesperson has said there is no evidence of a crime at this point. As for Homecoming, this not only affects the 15 fraternities but their partner sororities during a time of philanthropic activity. And there is significant research that supports the fact that as a group those engaged in their college or university (Greek life being one of those forms of engagement) are more likely to give back to their alma mater than a GDI.

And from the latest ANews article:

In another post in the same group, Scott Haag, a ’94 OU graduate, condemned the suspension of all 15 traditional fraternities, saying he’s “ashamed to be an Ohio University Bobcat thanks to the heavy-handed ineptitude of the current Dean of Students Jenny Hall-Jones…”

Haag added that he won’t contribute any more money to the university or attend Homecoming next weekend (Oct. 18-19) unless President Duane Nellis or the OU Board of Trustees “reign in” Hall-Jones.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/local/ou-moves-to-suspend...


Might be good to read today’s Post editorial to get student perspective


I'd hardly consider the opinion of three women who are obviously anti-fraternity "student opinion." From what source or experience do they base this statement of theirs - "The allegations do not come as a surprise to many students. Hazing, in some form, is expected when it comes to pledging a fraternity."


Certainly no more biased than you are


But I'm not writing an opinion for the school newspaper or making the point that their opinion represents the opinion of the OU student body.

This thing has been botched from the beginning. It would have been very easy to cite in general terms which of the six areas that are defined as hazing had been violated. Not one person on here is defending hazing or insinuating that it is acceptable. When it involves drugs, alcohol or physical harm, I think we all agree that that is unacceptable and should be handled with swift but just sanctions. But in this day and age when the pendulum has swung so far left that simply challenging someone brings on calls for "safe spaces", anonymous charges of a general nature are tough to take.



Kids these days. The second you literally haze somebody to death, they go worrying about their safe spaces. Can't even challenge anybody anymore.

Given that somebody is dead, don't you think it might be a tiny bit late in the game to try and pin this in PC culture run amok? A student dying changes the calculus for the University. There's no way around that.

You don't have to like it, but this was the plainly obvious, rational decision to make. And you know how I know that's the case? The people most opposed to the decision 4 pages ago are no longer arguing with the decision itself, but have now shifted their complaints to be about how the University handled the decision and the information released.

We've gone from "this is a disgrace" and an embarrassment to the University to "it would have been very easy to cite in general terms which of the six areas that are defined as hazing had been violated."

Feels like there are a few degrees of difference there.

Last Edited: 10/9/2019 5:19:23 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Kevin Finnegan
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Member Since: 2/4/2005
Location: Rockton, IL
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/9/2019 10:53:40 AM 
I don't see this as an embarrassment to the university. Everybody I know is quite aware I'm an OHIO alum, I wear this label with pride constantly. Thus, many have talked to me about the story. Every single person, without exception, that has talked to me about this has said that they loved the university's action.

I, too, am grateful. Last year's headlines were embarrassing, sad, tragic. This year, the university is taking what they see as appropriate, swift action to make sure we do not ever have another incident like last year.

In a couple of months time, I bet that the fraternities are back to full operation. However, this will be something every fraternity will have fresh in their minds for years to come. Last year's actions were likely thought of as an isolated event by one fraternity. With this action, I'd imagine all are considering that all practices need to be re-evaluated.
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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,454

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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/9/2019 12:50:57 PM 
As far as this board is concerned the very interesting thing here is that when the actual death occurred there was 1 post made about the death and the closing of the fraternity and only 1 response to this death, and that was by RPBobcat, simply stating that there was an article in the Post regarding the incident.

My question is where was all this anti-frat rage at when the death occurred? Where was all this concern for OHIO University students 11 months ago? I would ask the same of University leadership, however, I believe the answer to that is the fact they are probably trying to mitigate any financial exposure in a civil court by showing they are proactive.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/9/2019 1:06:46 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
As far as this board is concerned the very interesting thing here is that when the actual death occurred there was 1 post made about the death and the closing of the fraternity and only 1 response to this death, and that was by RPBobcat, simply stating that there was an article in the Post regarding the incident.

My question is where was all this anti-frat rage at when the death occurred? Where was all this concern for OHIO University students 11 months ago? I would ask the same of University leadership, however, I believe the answer to that is the fact they are probably trying to mitigate any financial exposure in a civil court by showing they are proactive.


The story back then was about a single fraternity, and there wasn't anything suggesting this was a systemic issue. Now there's not only a suggestion that it is, but the University took the steps to suspend all fraternities temporarily.

That shifts the story from one about a tragedy at a single fraternity, to one that's a discussion of broader Greek culture at Ohio University. It also includes the additional insight that 9 of 15 remaining fraternities have hazing complaints pending. I'm sure you can understand why the response to those two things would differ so drastically.

Also, to be super clear, while one side here keeps accusing the other of things like "anti frat rage," let's play a little game. Which of these responses do you think indicates "rage"?

The responses that include referring to this as a "disgrace", "pathetic", "heavy handed ineptitude", talked about never donating to the University again, and called for the administration to be fired.

Or is it the side who basically said:

That guy died, now this. Seems like an unavoidable decision.

Of course there's some"anti-frat" sentiment here, but there's also a whole lot of anger of rage on the other side of this thing, so let's not act like that's somehow diminishing of the point being made.


Last Edited: 10/9/2019 1:19:49 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Robert Fox
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Member Since: 11/16/2004
Location: Knoxville, TN
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/9/2019 1:29:55 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

The story back then was about a single fraternity, and there wasn't anything suggesting this was a systemic issue. Now there's not only a suggestion that it is, but the University took the steps to suspend all fraternities temporarily.


Two things: One, your "game" doesn't prove anything. Just as the sideline argument about their being "anti-frat" bias doesn't prove anything. Two, your point above about the "university took steps to suspend all fraternities temporarily" is not accurate. OU did not suspend all fraternities, only IFC fraternities. Nor did they suspend other Greek organizations, such as sororities. RP raised this point earlier, I'm just repeating to illustrate this is a targeted group. If OU's position is this is a systemic problem, they are suggesting the problem is limited ONLY to IFC fraternities.

Maybe the "accusations" make that obvious. Again, we don't know because OU has chosen to keep the accusations unpublished. Doing so immediately calls into question intent and bias, by not only OU administration but also by the accusers themselves. Are we to believe the administration is without bias on this issue?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/9/2019 1:47:38 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Are we to believe the administration is without bias on this issue?


Of course not. In fact, my point in all of this has been to illustrate how the administration's own bias is the driving issue here. The administration's bias is towards mitigating risk and as a result, they had very little choice here.

That's been my stance all along. They were forced into an unpopular decision, but they were they forced there by the behavior of the fraternities. Somebody died. They received complaints. There's little they could have done but this. People can dislike it all they want, but it's the only rational decision here and all of the anger against the administration feels misplaced to me as a result.

Last Edited: 10/9/2019 1:53:46 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/9/2019 2:08:08 PM 
Whether they were forced or not is dependent upon the seriousness of the accusations. In theory, we'll know that soon enough, provided they eventually make that known. If not, we'll have to continue to "trust them."
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/9/2019 2:34:55 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Whether they were forced or not is dependent upon the seriousness of the accusations. In theory, we'll know that soon enough, provided they eventually make that known. If not, we'll have to continue to "trust them."


As I pointed out before, our options are to trust the administration or to trust the frats themselves. Given the death 11 months ago, I know which of those two options feels safest to me. I think that many of us also know things about how frats operated during our time at OU that inherently lends credence to the idea of accusations; that's not proof in and of itself, but of course it's going to color our perceptions.

Last Edited: 10/9/2019 2:40:12 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/9/2019 3:00:07 PM 
The Optimist wrote:

The drinking age of 21 is part of the problem here. Drinking related activities are inherently no more dangerous “if the pledge is under 21.” Hazing related activities involving drinking for 22 year olds can be just as dangerous as for 20 year olds.

If we’re going to crack down on hazing because it promotes drinking “in secrecy” which increases cases of alcohol positioning we’ve got to look at the drinking age in general because there are plenty of kids not in Greek Life contributing to underage drinking.



Sorry for Thread Drift, but....

The drinking age, or perhaps better put, the age at which "kids" are legally held to certain standards and legally allowed to do certain things in America, but not others, is positively ridiculous.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/9/2019 5:33:18 PM 
OU_Country wrote:
The Optimist wrote:

The drinking age of 21 is part of the problem here. Drinking related activities are inherently no more dangerous “if the pledge is under 21.” Hazing related activities involving drinking for 22 year olds can be just as dangerous as for 20 year olds.

If we’re going to crack down on hazing because it promotes drinking “in secrecy” which increases cases of alcohol positioning we’ve got to look at the drinking age in general because there are plenty of kids not in Greek Life contributing to underage drinking.



Sorry for Thread Drift, but....

The drinking age, or perhaps better put, the age at which "kids" are legally held to certain standards and legally allowed to do certain things in America, but not others, is positively ridiculous.


Well usually adults are allowed to do things as long as they are not against the law.
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David E Brightbill
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/9/2019 7:53:37 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
David E Brightbill wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
David E Brightbill wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
[QUOTE=Alan Swank] Shame, your disdain for fraternities is quite evident. So I had a bad meal at Casa tonight (I didn't) and I complain. Tomorrow morning based on that subjective and unsubstantiated complaint, all 15 restaurants in Athens get closed down. Yep, that makes lots of sense kind of like taking recess from the whole class because one kid acted up. That will teach the little bastards.


Did you die? Was it because of a procedure shared by all 15 restaurants? Because shutting down all 15 restaurants temporarily to investigate said procedure might make sense.

And while you think my stance here is about "disdain" for frats, your first reply was about homecoming alums.

This behavior killed somebody. Let's apply a tiny bit of perspective. A temporary shut down until an investigation is completed is completely reasonable.

Even before homecoming.


The tragedy was last year and that fraternity is now gone. Since when do we hand out punishment before there has been an investigation. Even the OU PD spokesperson has said there is no evidence of a crime at this point. As for Homecoming, this not only affects the 15 fraternities but their partner sororities during a time of philanthropic activity. And there is significant research that supports the fact that as a group those engaged in their college or university (Greek life being one of those forms of engagement) are more likely to give back to their alma mater than a GDI.

And from the latest ANews article:

In another post in the same group, Scott Haag, a ’94 OU graduate, condemned the suspension of all 15 traditional fraternities, saying he’s “ashamed to be an Ohio University Bobcat thanks to the heavy-handed ineptitude of the current Dean of Students Jenny Hall-Jones…”

Haag added that he won’t contribute any more money to the university or attend Homecoming next weekend (Oct. 18-19) unless President Duane Nellis or the OU Board of Trustees “reign in” Hall-Jones.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/local/ou-moves-to-suspend...


Might be good to read today’s Post editorial to get student perspective


I'd hardly consider the opinion of three women who are obviously anti-fraternity "student opinion." From what source or experience do they base this statement of theirs - "The allegations do not come as a surprise to many students. Hazing, in some form, is expected when it comes to pledging a fraternity."


Certainly no more biased than you are


But I'm not writing an opinion for the school newspaper or making the point that their opinion represents the opinion of the OU student body.

This thing has been botched from the beginning. It would have been very easy to cite in general terms which of the six areas that are defined as hazing had been violated. Not one person on here is defending hazing or insinuating that it is acceptable. When it involves drugs, alcohol or physical harm, I think we all agree that that is unacceptable and should be handled with swift but just sanctions. But in this day and age when the pendulum has swung so far left that simply challenging someone brings on calls for "safe spaces", anonymous charges of a general nature are tough to take.

[/QUOTE

As I assume you are aware editorials are just that opinions. So no use chastising the editorial staff for expressing an opinion and they are students so probably have a better chance of understanding student opinions than us old guys. How do you know it doesn’t involve drugs, alcohol or physical harm. Just because they haven’t released the information doesn’t mean it’s not there. That’s what investigations and policy reviews are for, to determine if there is a problem and if there is how will it be dealt with. Where did you get the safe spaces from. I didn’t see anything in Jenny’s letter about safe spaces. What I did see is a reasonable calling for a stand down and review your policies before continuing. 9 out of 15 fraternities are under active investigation seems like there might be a systematic problem.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/9/2019 8:10:01 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:

Two things: One, your "game" doesn't prove anything. Just as the sideline argument about their being "anti-frat" bias doesn't prove anything. Two, your point above about the "university took steps to suspend all fraternities temporarily" is not accurate. OU did not suspend all fraternities, only IFC fraternities. Nor did they suspend other Greek organizations, such as sororities. RP raised this point earlier, I'm just repeating to illustrate this is a targeted group. If OU's position is this is a systemic problem, they are suggesting the problem is limited ONLY to IFC fraternities.


Four more suspended -- three sororities, one Business Fraternity outside of the IFC, just fyi:

https://www.athensmessenger.com/spotlight/three-ou-sorori...
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/9/2019 9:57:22 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:

Two things: One, your "game" doesn't prove anything. Just as the sideline argument about their being "anti-frat" bias doesn't prove anything. Two, your point above about the "university took steps to suspend all fraternities temporarily" is not accurate. OU did not suspend all fraternities, only IFC fraternities. Nor did they suspend other Greek organizations, such as sororities. RP raised this point earlier, I'm just repeating to illustrate this is a targeted group. If OU's position is this is a systemic problem, they are suggesting the problem is limited ONLY to IFC fraternities.


Four more suspended -- three sororities, one Business Fraternity outside of the IFC, just fyi:

https://www.athensmessenger.com/spotlight/three-ou-sorori...


Reminds me of the Salem Witch Trials.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/10/2019 12:18:13 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:

Two things: One, your "game" doesn't prove anything. Just as the sideline argument about their being "anti-frat" bias doesn't prove anything. Two, your point above about the "university took steps to suspend all fraternities temporarily" is not accurate. OU did not suspend all fraternities, only IFC fraternities. Nor did they suspend other Greek organizations, such as sororities. RP raised this point earlier, I'm just repeating to illustrate this is a targeted group. If OU's position is this is a systemic problem, they are suggesting the problem is limited ONLY to IFC fraternities.


Four more suspended -- three sororities, one Business Fraternity outside of the IFC, just fyi:

https://www.athensmessenger.com/spotlight/three-ou-sorori...


Reminds me of the Salem Witch Trials.



Though I don't know everything that's at play here, my gut agrees with Alan. There is something going on here that makes me question what JHJ's motive might be. Perhaps, it is fear for the safety of students and she had evidence that another death might take place if she didn't intervene, but the overarching nature of this action seems to indicate some other motive is probably at work here. I seriously doubt at all IFC frats, and three sororities were engaged in, or about to be engaged in, some kind of mass hazing that was going to get pledges potentially killed. I suppose it's possible, but I believe it's highly unlikely.

My fraternity (which I don't care to divulge) is one of those involved in the "first wave" of these suspensions. I was told directly that they have "no Idea" what they did wrong. They have no idea who made the charge. They have asked all the current actives and consulted with their adviser and no one can figure out what the specific charge might be. They said they've looked for big things and the possible accumulation of smaller transgressions, and still in their internal discussions cannot identify any one action or accumulation of actions over time that would justify their suspension.

I guess time will tell what's behind this move, but it does have the smell of a witch trial at this point to me.

Last Edited: 10/10/2019 12:20:01 AM by OhioCatFan

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/10/2019 4:40:48 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:

Two things: One, your "game" doesn't prove anything. Just as the sideline argument about their being "anti-frat" bias doesn't prove anything. Two, your point above about the "university took steps to suspend all fraternities temporarily" is not accurate. OU did not suspend all fraternities, only IFC fraternities. Nor did they suspend other Greek organizations, such as sororities. RP raised this point earlier, I'm just repeating to illustrate this is a targeted group. If OU's position is this is a systemic problem, they are suggesting the problem is limited ONLY to IFC fraternities.


Four more suspended -- three sororities, one Business Fraternity outside of the IFC, just fyi:

https://www.athensmessenger.com/spotlight/three-ou-sorori...


Reminds me of the Salem Witch Trials.



With only slightly fewer deaths.

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/10/2019 8:02:51 AM 
Just saw the 3 sororities and business fraternity. Not a conspiracy theory guy, however, I do wonder if there is not an agenda being carried out by new administration.

Though I like to harass OCF, I have no doubt on his information regarding his Frat, I know people have deep ties to these groups and follow and have concern for happenings. I've had others tell me that they have yet to be informed of what's going on. Throw in the fact that we have a statement from OUPD and APD that there is no criminal behavior, makes you go hmmmm.

Last Edited: 10/10/2019 8:08:14 AM by BillyTheCat
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/10/2019 8:32:49 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Just saw the 3 sororities and business fraternity. Not a conspiracy theory guy, however, I do wonder if there is not an agenda being carried out by new administration.

Though I like to harass OCF, I have no doubt on his information regarding his Frat, I know people have deep ties to these groups and follow and have concern for happenings. I've had others tell me that they have yet to be informed of what's going on. Throw in the fact that we have a statement from OUPD and APD that there is no criminal behavior, makes you go hmmmm.


It's not at all surprising that the people here most upset with this decision to begin with are now growing more and more certain this is a witch hunt.

Me? I look at OCF's insistence that his frat's done nothing wrong and are baffled with a healthy dose of skepticism.

I mean, does anybody here want to start swapping fraternity hazing stories? Is there any doubt at all that we could put together a list of 30 things we know happened at OU fraternities in the past that would more than justify this decision? And now we're being asked to believe that that behavior's completely gone and the University is waging some conspiracy against Greek life?

I lived with two frat guys for two years at OU. During rush, the pledges would have to visit all of the active members houses one after another and basically anything was fair game. Even what I witnessed -- as somebody who wasn't actually in a frat -- crossed lines of safety, without question. I dated a few girls in sororities. I heard their hazing stories. Again, anybody want to argue with a straight face that this isn't happening?

I mean, look at this conversation on r/frat: https://www.reddit.com/r/Frat/comments/9g3rky/your_favori... /

Every response is a joke about how their frat doesn't haze people. That's the party line. What else would they say in this case but that they haven't done anything?

On another note:

I'm really not sure why everybody is so intent on flocking to the extremes nowadays. It's a super weird reflex. Why assume some conspiracy when there are simple, logical explanations that make so much more sense?

This one's really crazy simple. It's kind of hilarious how desperate people are to believe otherwise.

Fraternities haze pledges. Most of it's harmless, sometimes it crosses lines. When a pledge died last year, it increased scrutiny to the point that the University needed to take this 'drastic' step to ensure student health. It's a risk arbitrage. It makes perfect, reasonable sense even if it's unpopular. And over the course of the next 3 months, all frats will be re-instated, or if serious violations were found, some will be suspended permanently and the details released. The University will get to be seen as having been proactive, and nobody will ultimately have faced any sort of serious consequence.

But conspiracy's are more fun. And it lets people feel victimized and maligned, which has become America's most popular past time these days. So I get it.

Last Edited: 10/10/2019 8:44:17 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/10/2019 8:34:40 AM 
As more evidence piles up that this is truly a systematic problem, the ardent defenders of greek life on here respond by saying the evidence is proof of a conspiracy. That makes total sense.

It couldn't possibly be that there's simply more scrutiny following a death, and that the university is working to protect itself from liability by strictly enforcing a zero-tolerance hazing policy.

Nope, it's a conspiracy! The Deep State of Cutler has it in for the frats.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/10/2019 8:47:40 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:

Throw in the fact that we have a statement from OUPD and APD that there is no criminal behavior, makes you go hmmmm.


"no criminal behavior" eliminates things like underage drinking,assault,etc.

So that makes me wonder, what exactly is the hazing these frats are alleged to have done ?
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