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Topic:  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely

Topic:  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/5/2019 9:31:33 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:


Haag added that he won’t contribute any more money to the university or attend Homecoming next weekend (Oct. 18-19) unless President Duane Nellis or the OU Board of Trustees “reign in” Hall-Jones.


He's bad at spelling. And I wonder how much he actually donated to begin with. Most of us don't give much - if anything.
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/5/2019 9:43:51 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Shame, your disdain for fraternities is quite evident. So I had a bad meal at Casa tonight (I didn't) and I complain. Tomorrow morning based on that subjective and unsubstantiated complaint, all 15 restaurants in Athens get closed down. Yep, that makes lots of sense kind of like taking recess from the whole class because one kid acted up. That will teach the little bastards.


This would be a more apt comparison if there was a known, systematic practice of unsafe food handling at Athens restaurants, and someone died from it. Then a year later half the restaurants had credible accusations of doing the same unsafe things with food. Shutting them all down doesn't sound that outlandish.

And you guessed right, I do loathe the fraternity systems. I think finding a bunch of people just like you on a diverse and interesting campus is antithetical to a mind-expanding college experience. My opinion on greek life aside, that system has had these kind of stupid and destructive issues for decades. Drop the hammer until they can get it together.
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mid70sbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/5/2019 11:17:19 PM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:


Haag added that he won’t contribute any more money to the university or attend Homecoming next weekend (Oct. 18-19) unless President Duane Nellis or the OU Board of Trustees “reign in” Hall-Jones.


He's bad at spelling. And I wonder how much he actually donated to begin with. Most of us don't give much - if anything.


Speak for yourself. Many alums do make significant financial contributions!

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Broomball @ Midnight!
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 3:32:03 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Shame, your disdain for fraternities is quite evident. So I had a bad meal at Casa tonight (I didn't) and I complain. Tomorrow morning based on that subjective and unsubstantiated complaint, all 15 restaurants in Athens get closed down. Yep, that makes lots of sense kind of like taking recess from the whole class because one kid acted up. That will teach the little bastards.

And you guessed right, I do loathe the fraternity systems. I think finding a bunch of people just like you on a diverse and interesting campus is antithetical to a mind-expanding college experience. My opinion on greek life aside, that system has had these kind of stupid and destructive issues for decades. Drop the hammer until they can get it together.

How about applying some journalism ethics to your carpet bombing hot take?

Last Edited: 10/6/2019 3:33:54 AM by Broomball @ Midnight!


You just got lesson number one: don't think; it can only hurt the ball club. - Crash Davis (1988)

BS Ohio '88 - MA Florida '92 - PhD Florida '10

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 8:59:23 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Shame, your disdain for fraternities is quite evident. So I had a bad meal at Casa tonight (I didn't) and I complain. Tomorrow morning based on that subjective and unsubstantiated complaint, all 15 restaurants in Athens get closed down. Yep, that makes lots of sense kind of like taking recess from the whole class because one kid acted up. That will teach the little bastards.


This would be a more apt comparison if there was a known, systematic practice of unsafe food handling at Athens restaurants, and someone died from it. Then a year later half the restaurants had credible accusations of doing the same unsafe things with food. Shutting them all down doesn't sound that outlandish.

And you guessed right, I do loathe the fraternity systems. I think finding a bunch of people just like you on a diverse and interesting campus is antithetical to a mind-expanding college experience. My opinion on greek life aside, that system has had these kind of stupid and destructive issues for decades. Drop the hammer until they can get it together.


Talk about classic stereotyping something you know nothing about. Most people tend to associate with others just like them whether they are in a fraternity or not. I was in one at Muskingum and we were far from clones of one another. We athletes, pot heads, student government leaders, gay men, scholars, guys who barely got by, and rednecks too.

Last Edited: 10/6/2019 11:53:11 AM by Alan Swank

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 9:04:16 AM 
mid70sbobcat wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:


Haag added that he won’t contribute any more money to the university or attend Homecoming next weekend (Oct. 18-19) unless President Duane Nellis or the OU Board of Trustees “reign in” Hall-Jones.


He's bad at spelling. And I wonder how much he actually donated to begin with. Most of us don't give much - if anything.


Speak for yourself. Many alums do make significant financial contributions!



+1
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 10:27:24 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:


Haag added that he won’t contribute any more money to the university or attend Homecoming next weekend (Oct. 18-19) unless President Duane Nellis or the OU Board of Trustees “reign in” Hall-Jones.


He's bad at spelling. And I wonder how much he actually donated to begin with. Most of us don't give much - if anything.


Speak for yourself. Many alums do make significant financial contributions!



+1


Not only financial contributions but also volunteer curricular contributions.

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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 10:43:49 AM 
mid70sbobcat wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:


Haag added that he won’t contribute any more money to the university or attend Homecoming next weekend (Oct. 18-19) unless President Duane Nellis or the OU Board of Trustees “reign in” Hall-Jones.


He's bad at spelling. And I wonder how much he actually donated to begin with. Most of us don't give much - if anything.


Speak for yourself. Many alums do make significant financial contributions!



+1



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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 10:56:55 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Shame, your disdain for fraternities is quite evident. So I had a bad meal at Casa tonight (I didn't) and I complain. Tomorrow morning based on that subjective and unsubstantiated complaint, all 15 restaurants in Athens get closed down. Yep, that makes lots of sense kind of like taking recess from the whole class because one kid acted up. That will teach the little bastards.


Did you die? Was it because of a procedure shared by all 15 restaurants? Because shutting down all 15 restaurants temporarily to investigate said procedure might make sense.

And while you think my stance here is about "disdain" for frats, your first reply was about homecoming alums.

This behavior killed somebody. Let's apply a tiny bit of perspective. A temporary shut down until an investigation is completed is completely reasonable.

Even before homecoming.


The tragedy was last year and that fraternity is now gone. Since when do we hand out punishment before there has been an investigation. Even the OU PD spokesperson has said there is no evidence of a crime at this point. As for Homecoming, this not only affects the 15 fraternities but their partner sororities during a time of philanthropic activity. And there is significant research that supports the fact that as a group those engaged in their college or university (Greek life being one of those forms of engagement) are more likely to give back to their alma mater than a GDI.

And from the latest ANews article:

In another post in the same group, Scott Haag, a ’94 OU graduate, condemned the suspension of all 15 traditional fraternities, saying he’s “ashamed to be an Ohio University Bobcat thanks to the heavy-handed ineptitude of the current Dean of Students Jenny Hall-Jones…”

Haag added that he won’t contribute any more money to the university or attend Homecoming next weekend (Oct. 18-19) unless President Duane Nellis or the OU Board of Trustees “reign in” Hall-Jones.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/local/ou-moves-to-suspend...



What'd Haag have to say when a fraternity member died last year?

Again, somebody died, and 7 of 15 Fraternities received formal complaints. It simply isn't that drastic to temporarily suspended then while an investigation is performed.

I'm honestly not even sure what I'm supposed to respond to. You want me, what, to feel bad for some class of 94 alum because he's not coming to homecoming? That truthfully just sort of reads as sad to me. That's a whole lot of anger for somebody with no firsthand knowledge of the most recent accusations.

The death changed the stakes. It's perfectly reasonable to temporarily suspend activity during the investigation; that's what happens when somebody died. You lose the benefit of the doubt. The university simply can't risk a second incident, and the accusations indicate that the Frats may not be capable of governing themselves.

Last Edited: 10/6/2019 11:15:01 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 11:32:26 AM 
What are the accusations?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 11:56:53 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
What are the accusations?


Nobody knows specifics, just that 7 Fraternities have been accused of hazing.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 12:14:40 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
What are the accusations?


Nobody knows specifics, just that 7 Fraternities have been accused of hazing.


I think that's the problem. Jenny Hall-Jones should be more specific as to what the allegations are.
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 12:14:41 PM 
mid70sbobcat wrote:


Speak for yourself. Many alums do make significant financial contributions!



If I was speaking for myself, I'd have said that I donate plenty. I was making an empirical observation. The Alumni Association says there are about 200,000 living alumni and they get donations from "more than 17,000 alumni, students, parents, friends, and organizations." Even if you say all 17,000 donors are alumni, that's well under 9% of them giving a dime.
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 12:17:42 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
[QUOTE=Recovering Journalist]

Talk about classic stereotyping something you know nothing about. Most people tend to associate with others just like them whether they are in a fraternity or not. I was in one at Muskingum and we were far from clones of one another. We athletes, pot heads, student government leaders, gay men, scholars, guys who barely got by, and rednecks too.



My wife went to Wittenberg and said the system was like what you're describing there, so I believe you about Muskingum. But I do know plenty about the system at Ohio from my time in Athens. More to the point, this is not about my opinion of greek life. This is about the fact that there are clear systematic failures that are endangering students. You're worried about "fairness" when lives are literally at stake.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 12:19:01 PM 
Broomball @ Midnight! wrote:

How about applying some journalism ethics to your carpet bombing hot take?


How about learning the difference between trading opinions on a message board and reporting?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 12:19:54 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
What are the accusations?


Nobody knows specifics, just that 7 Fraternities have been accused of hazing.


I think that's the problem. Jenny Hall-Jones should be more specific as to what the allegations are.


I suspect there's some legal liability to sharing un-verified allegations.

My perspective is that the volume of allegations, coupled with last year's death, warrants this precaution. Others are certain this was too drastic and that a temporary suspension is too much of a punishment already. I don't know how anybody can know that. But based on the facts we do know, I'm 100% fine with this approach.

I mean, I keep saying this, but somebody died. The Frats lost the benefit of the doubt. An abundance of caution is justified.

Last Edited: 10/6/2019 12:21:54 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 12:26:50 PM 
If this is primarily a response to the student's death, I would have expected this one year ago. Why would they have waited?
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 12:35:58 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
If this is primarily a response to the student's death, I would have expected this one year ago. Why would they have waited?


I'm sure they were told before rush season that there would be more intense scrutiny. The university also implemented a plan to encourage hazed kids to come forward. When that scrutiny turned up issues at seven out of 15 despite prior warnings, the ban took place. It's an institutional problem that's not confined to OU.

https://abc6onyourside.com/news/local/parents-of-ou-pledg...
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 12:44:17 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
If this is primarily a response to the student's death, I would have expected this one year ago. Why would they have waited?


RJ made it clear, but this isn't a direct response to the death. It's a direct result of increased scrutiny in the wake of the death.

Last Edited: 10/6/2019 12:44:43 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 1:44:11 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
If this is primarily a response to the student's death, I would have expected this one year ago. Why would they have waited?


RJ made it clear, but this isn't a direct response to the death. It's a direct result of increased scrutiny in the wake of the death.


And because of that scrutiny those who stand accused should be judged but not those who haven't been accused. I don't think anyone who is posting in this thread believes that those accused should not be investigated. The problem is the extension of the suspension to 8 other groups - nothing more, nothing less.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 2:25:25 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
If this is primarily a response to the student's death, I would have expected this one year ago. Why would they have waited?


RJ made it clear, but this isn't a direct response to the death. It's a direct result of increased scrutiny in the wake of the death.


And because of that scrutiny those who stand accused should be judged but not those who haven't been accused. I don't think anyone who is posting in this thread believes that those accused should not be investigated. The problem is the extension of the suspension to 8 other groups - nothing more, nothing less.



A fraternity member died and that fraternity was expelled. Of the remaining 15 fraternities, 7 have had complaints against them since. Including Sig Ep, that means that exactly half of Ohio University fraternities have had hazing complaints -- seven of them since the death of the student. There's been one rush season since. That means half of fraternities over the last year and change have had complaints about hazing, and one of them killed somebody.

That strongly suggests a systemic issue, and it's simply too risky for the University to approach this in any other manner.

Once again, somebody died. And the University has decided that behavior didn't sufficiently change. This is a super easy decision and fully justifiable. Sorry it made you sad about old alums at homecoming, but old alums at homecoming aren't even a remote consideration here.

Does it suck if those other fraternities are perfectly innocent? Sure. In the scheme of things does it matter even a little bit? No. This "punishment" that's so "drastic" basically boils down to unofficial parties instead of official ones. It means parties at off-campus houses and more time at the bars. If those 8 fraternities are found to have done nothing wrong they'll be re-instated and in the end those students' lives will not have been impacted in any significant way.




Last Edited: 10/6/2019 2:46:25 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 4:35:20 PM 
Well, Ok. I guess we'll see if alumni agree with you or not. My guess is JHJ is getting plenty of feedback.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 4:41:37 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Well, Ok. I guess we'll see if alumni agree with you or not. My guess is JHJ is getting plenty of feedback.


Of course she is. Old grads give feedback on literally everything. Doesn't make them right.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 4:45:29 PM 
Or wrong.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Jenny Hall Jones suspends all fraternity activity indefinitely
   Posted: 10/6/2019 5:06:36 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Or wrong.


Yep, reasonable people can disagree. But I do think they're wrong in this case. For the reasons I stated.

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