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Topic:  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Topic:  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
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RSBobcat
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Member Since: 8/22/2010
Location: Columbus, OH
Post Count: 3,981

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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/11/2017 12:30:49 AM 
cc-cat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:

What I said was that,today,the average person does not.


But let's remember the average person can't identify who our allies were in WWII and can't name all 50 states.


50 - Hell, most can't name 25!!!!! Or the VP, Sec of State, etc. Or ANYONE on the Supreme Court! Or their congressman! OR their dogcatcher for that matter! But - Make sure you take ur hat off when the flag is in the vicinity with some particular song a band or recording is playing.....


RS Bobcat

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RSBobcat
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Member Since: 8/22/2010
Location: Columbus, OH
Post Count: 3,981

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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/11/2017 12:36:04 AM 
Berlin '36 Olympics - Some Local Patriotism and Ceremony Group Think Galore. And one guy shot all that phony baloney to hell....by his "ACTIONS" - Not "Acting"

Last Edited: 12/11/2017 12:41:53 AM by RSBobcat


RS Bobcat

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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 2,692

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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/11/2017 6:49:12 AM 
RSBobcat wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:

What I said was that,today,the average person does not.


But let's remember the average person can't identify who our allies were in WWII and can't name all 50 states.


50 - Hell, most can't name 25!!!!! Or the VP, Sec of State, etc. Or ANYONE on the Supreme Court! Or their congressman! OR their dogcatcher for that matter! But - Make sure you take ur hat off when the flag is in the vicinity with some particular song a band or recording is playing.....


I think a lot of this can be traced back to Mr.Swank's comments about people's minimal knowledge of "civics".

When I was in Grammar School,we had to learn all 50 states and their capitals and all the presidents.

My parents have an aide.
She's trying to become a U.S. Citizen.
I've been going over some of the sample test questions with her.

They're pretty basic.
But,I wonder how many High School seniors,or for that matter college seniors, could pass the Citizenship Test.

As far as standing for the National Anthem,I wonder how many people even know why that is done,or basic U.S. flag protocol.
We got taught that too,including why the U.S. flag never "dips".
Both in grammar school and the Boy scouts.




Last Edited: 12/11/2017 7:28:47 AM by rpbobcat

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DelBobcat
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Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,135

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/11/2017 1:13:46 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
RSBobcat wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:

What I said was that,today,the average person does not.


But let's remember the average person can't identify who our allies were in WWII and can't name all 50 states.


50 - Hell, most can't name 25!!!!! Or the VP, Sec of State, etc. Or ANYONE on the Supreme Court! Or their congressman! OR their dogcatcher for that matter! But - Make sure you take ur hat off when the flag is in the vicinity with some particular song a band or recording is playing.....


I think a lot of this can be traced back to Mr.Swank's comments about people's minimal knowledge of "civics".

When I was in Grammar School,we had to learn all 50 states and their capitals and all the presidents.

My parents have an aide.
She's trying to become a U.S. Citizen.
I've been going over some of the sample test questions with her.

They're pretty basic.
But,I wonder how many High School seniors,or for that matter college seniors, could pass the Citizenship Test.

As far as standing for the National Anthem,I wonder how many people even know why that is done,or basic U.S. flag protocol.
We got taught that too,including why the U.S. flag never "dips".
Both in grammar school and the Boy scouts.



Some of you act like this is a generational thing. I was taught those things too. I'm 30. My nephew is being taught those things too. He's 8. The fact of the matter is, most Americans, regardless of age, stop thinking about those things the minute they are out of school. That's the case with every generation. I guarantee that there are tons of people in their 50s, 60s, and 70s who could not pass the citizenship test. That includes our President. I would bet everything I have on it.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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Kevin Finnegan
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Member Since: 2/4/2005
Location: Rockton, IL
Post Count: 740

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/11/2017 2:39:48 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
RSBobcat wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:

What I said was that,today,the average person does not.


But let's remember the average person can't identify who our allies were in WWII and can't name all 50 states.


50 - Hell, most can't name 25!!!!! Or the VP, Sec of State, etc. Or ANYONE on the Supreme Court! Or their congressman! OR their dogcatcher for that matter! But - Make sure you take ur hat off when the flag is in the vicinity with some particular song a band or recording is playing.....


I think a lot of this can be traced back to Mr.Swank's comments about people's minimal knowledge of "civics".

When I was in Grammar School,we had to learn all 50 states and their capitals and all the presidents.

My parents have an aide.
She's trying to become a U.S. Citizen.
I've been going over some of the sample test questions with her.

They're pretty basic.
But,I wonder how many High School seniors,or for that matter college seniors, could pass the Citizenship Test.

As far as standing for the National Anthem,I wonder how many people even know why that is done,or basic U.S. flag protocol.
We got taught that too,including why the U.S. flag never "dips".
Both in grammar school and the Boy scouts.





These are what are referred to as 'basic recall facts'. It does not take an educated person to know this stuff. It's rote memorization, among the lowest depths of knowledge. You're right, the capitals of the states may be on the backburner in a lot of schools. But you know what? That time is being replaced with more in-depth learning. Instead of being able to recall that Carson City is the capital of Nevada (please tell me the value of that...), they're learning the characteristics of democracy vs. monarchy vs. authoritarianism. They're debating the values of these, and why countries would have one over another. They're having deep discussions.

This upcoming generation may not be the best at Trivia Night at your local bar. However, I am quite confident that they'll be innovators and leaders of a very impressive world. I was at a presentation just last week and the first slide's quote was: "Education is not the learning of facts, but the training of the mind to think." --Albert Einstein
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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 2,692

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/11/2017 2:53:42 PM 
DelBobcat wrote:


Some of you act like this is a generational thing. I was taught those things too. I'm 30. My nephew is being taught those things too. He's 8. The fact of the matter is, most Americans, regardless of age, stop thinking about those things the minute they are out of school. That's the case with every generation. I guarantee that there are tons of people in their 50s, 60s, and 70s who could not pass the citizenship test. That includes our President. I would bet everything I have on it.


The Citizenship Exam is pretty basic stuff.
Things like:
(This is from memory,so I'm paraphrasing)

Name the 3 branches of Government.

How may senators are there ?

Name your congressional representative.

Name one of your senators.

Name a Native American tribe.

Where does "We The People" come from ?

Seems to me,those are things you wouldn't/shouldn't forget.

As far as President Trump being able to pass the Citizenship Test,I don't know one way or the other.
He did know that you become President of the United States by winning the Electoral College,not the popular vote.
Something that's lost on the people who keep saying "Hillary won".


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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 1,549

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/11/2017 3:09:41 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:


Some of you act like this is a generational thing. I was taught those things too. I'm 30. My nephew is being taught those things too. He's 8. The fact of the matter is, most Americans, regardless of age, stop thinking about those things the minute they are out of school. That's the case with every generation. I guarantee that there are tons of people in their 50s, 60s, and 70s who could not pass the citizenship test. That includes our President. I would bet everything I have on it.


The Citizenship Exam is pretty basic stuff.
Things like:
(This is from memory,so I'm paraphrasing)

Name the 3 branches of Government.

How may senators are there ?

Name your congressional representative.

Name one of your senators.

Name a Native American tribe.

Where does "We The People" come from ?

Seems to me,those are things you wouldn't/shouldn't forget.

As far as President Trump being able to pass the Citizenship Test,I don't know one way or the other.
He did know that you become President of the United States by winning the Electoral College,not the popular vote.
Something that's lost on the people who keep saying "Hillary won".


Yep, he knew all about the Electoral College. And thought it was a "disaster for democracy."

I actually took the citizenship test for fun not so long ago, and it's pretty basic. I'm sure Trump would pass. A high school civics class on the other hand? Much more of a toss up.


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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 2,692

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/11/2017 3:16:33 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


Yep, he knew all about the Electoral College. And thought it was a "disaster for democracy."

I actually took the citizenship test for fun not so long ago, and it's pretty basic. I'm sure Trump would pass. A high school civics class on the other hand? Much more of a toss up.




He said "disaster for democracy" about the Electoral College,pre-election.That was around the same time they were predicting he could win the popular vote,but not the E.C.

Post election he talked about the "genius" of The Founders in creating it.

Guess winning changed his mind.


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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 10,694

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/11/2017 3:22:31 PM 
finnOhio wrote:
This upcoming generation may not be the best at Trivia Night at your local bar. However, I am quite confident that they'll be innovators and leaders of a very impressive world. I was at a presentation just last week and the first slide's quote was: "Education is not the learning of facts, but the training of the mind to think." --Albert Einstein


With all due respect to Albert, you must have facts to inform your thinking. Abstract "thinking" without facts to inform your thinking is rather a meaningless exercise. As one bard once put it, "We can have facts without thinking, but we can't have thinking without facts." I believe that you have set up a false dichotomy here. What you are really questioning is what facts are most important to learn in any given length of time. I would suggest that at least some of what you call "trivia" are essential facts that a citizen of the U.S. should know. Whether you need to know the capital of every state is certainly debatable. But, knowing that each state has two senators and a number of representatives based on its population is certainly mandatory before you can logically talk about comparing our democracy with other democracies and other forms of government. There are many other such examples that could be given, but I think you get the point. I wonder how many of the current generation could tell you how Congress is setup and the original rationale for it?

Last Edited: 12/11/2017 3:24:26 PM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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DelBobcat
General User



Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,135

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/11/2017 3:38:01 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:


Some of you act like this is a generational thing. I was taught those things too. I'm 30. My nephew is being taught those things too. He's 8. The fact of the matter is, most Americans, regardless of age, stop thinking about those things the minute they are out of school. That's the case with every generation. I guarantee that there are tons of people in their 50s, 60s, and 70s who could not pass the citizenship test. That includes our President. I would bet everything I have on it.


The Citizenship Exam is pretty basic stuff.
Things like:
(This is from memory,so I'm paraphrasing)

Name the 3 branches of Government.

How may senators are there ?

Name your congressional representative.

Name one of your senators.

Name a Native American tribe.

Where does "We The People" come from ?

Seems to me,those are things you wouldn't/shouldn't forget.

As far as President Trump being able to pass the Citizenship Test,I don't know one way or the other.
He did know that you become President of the United States by winning the Electoral College,not the popular vote.
Something that's lost on the people who keep saying "Hillary won".



Oh come on RP, nobody thinks Hillary has a right to the Presidency. Pointing out that she had the support of a plurality of those who voted doesn't mean you don't understand the electoral college. And I know what's on the citizenship test. I have also helped someone study for it. Just using your example questions I can tell you that Trump would miss several. He already showed that when he thought that GOP members of Congress worked for him. There's the first one for you. He also thought Frederick Douglass was alive and Puerto Rico was a country. I guarantee you he doesn't know where "We The People" comes from. He has continuously shown he lacks even the most basic knowledge of our history and governing institutions.

But back to the original point, plenty of studies have been done to show that there is a lack of civics knowledge among American adults. But my point is that it cuts across all generations. It's always fun for the older generation to look down upon the younger generation and pretend like they're so much better. But the fact of the matter is that Millennials are highly-educated and highly-intelligent. It's too early to tell how this latest generation (Post-millennials? Generation Z?) will turn out but I bet they'll be even smarter. Hopefully they can fix the messes we've all created.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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That one crazy fan
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Member Since: 7/21/2010
Location: Dubuque, IA
Post Count: 481

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/13/2017 3:59:38 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
finnOhio wrote:
This upcoming generation may not be the best at Trivia Night at your local bar. However, I am quite confident that they'll be innovators and leaders of a very impressive world. I was at a presentation just last week and the first slide's quote was: "Education is not the learning of facts, but the training of the mind to think." --Albert Einstein


With all due respect to Albert, you must have facts to inform your thinking. Abstract "thinking" without facts to inform your thinking is rather a meaningless exercise. As one bard once put it, "We can have facts without thinking, but we can't have thinking without facts." I believe that you have set up a false dichotomy here. What you are really questioning is what facts are most important to learn in any given length of time. I would suggest that at least some of what you call "trivia" are essential facts that a citizen of the U.S. should know. Whether you need to know the capital of every state is certainly debatable. But, knowing that each state has two senators and a number of representatives based on its population is certainly mandatory before you can logically talk about comparing our democracy with other democracies and other forms of government. There are many other such examples that could be given, but I think you get the point. I wonder how many of the current generation could tell you how Congress is setup and the original rationale for it?


Before you snap to any judgments on my generation, just remember that there are a fair amount of elected Republicans who seem to think that you must be Christian in order to serve in office. What should be especially embarassing is the interview given yesterday by Roy Moore's campaign spokesman who found out that it is, in fact, not a law that one must put their hand on a bible when taking the oath. There's a fair amount of voters from my home area that also said similar statements during the 2008 election. If you'll remember the Al-Jazeera America coverage of a Palin rally in a town called St. Clairsville, there were several proclaiming "he's not Christian, this is a Christian nation."

Yes, there's a fair amount from my generation that do not get it. But there is an equal amount from yours that also don't get it, especially when it comes to things such as Judicial Review where the Supreme Court gets to decide if a law is unconstitutional. Most from your generation also do not understand flag code as I see an awful lot rules being broken by the "patriots" of your generation from flying tattered and worn flags (any rip at all, any fading, and they need to be retired), to flying without a light on it at night, to keeping it up in inclimate weather.

Please, do tell me about how it's my generation that knows nothing.


The opposing team sucks!

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DelBobcat
General User



Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,135

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/13/2017 5:27:35 PM 
That one crazy fan wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
finnOhio wrote:
This upcoming generation may not be the best at Trivia Night at your local bar. However, I am quite confident that they'll be innovators and leaders of a very impressive world. I was at a presentation just last week and the first slide's quote was: "Education is not the learning of facts, but the training of the mind to think." --Albert Einstein


With all due respect to Albert, you must have facts to inform your thinking. Abstract "thinking" without facts to inform your thinking is rather a meaningless exercise. As one bard once put it, "We can have facts without thinking, but we can't have thinking without facts." I believe that you have set up a false dichotomy here. What you are really questioning is what facts are most important to learn in any given length of time. I would suggest that at least some of what you call "trivia" are essential facts that a citizen of the U.S. should know. Whether you need to know the capital of every state is certainly debatable. But, knowing that each state has two senators and a number of representatives based on its population is certainly mandatory before you can logically talk about comparing our democracy with other democracies and other forms of government. There are many other such examples that could be given, but I think you get the point. I wonder how many of the current generation could tell you how Congress is setup and the original rationale for it?


Before you snap to any judgments on my generation, just remember that there are a fair amount of elected Republicans who seem to think that you must be Christian in order to serve in office. What should be especially embarassing is the interview given yesterday by Roy Moore's campaign spokesman who found out that it is, in fact, not a law that one must put their hand on a bible when taking the oath. There's a fair amount of voters from my home area that also said similar statements during the 2008 election. If you'll remember the Al-Jazeera America coverage of a Palin rally in a town called St. Clairsville, there were several proclaiming "he's not Christian, this is a Christian nation."

Yes, there's a fair amount from my generation that do not get it. But there is an equal amount from yours that also don't get it, especially when it comes to things such as Judicial Review where the Supreme Court gets to decide if a law is unconstitutional. Most from your generation also do not understand flag code as I see an awful lot rules being broken by the "patriots" of your generation from flying tattered and worn flags (any rip at all, any fading, and they need to be retired), to flying without a light on it at night, to keeping it up in inclimate weather.

Please, do tell me about how it's my generation that knows nothing.


This is a very good take.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 10,694

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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/13/2017 9:24:15 PM 
That one crazy fan wrote:


Yes, there's a fair amount from my generation that do not get it. But there is an equal amount from yours that also don't get it, especially when it comes to things such as Judicial Review where the Supreme Court gets to decide if a law is unconstitutional. Most from your generation also do not understand flag code as I see an awful lot rules being broken by the "patriots" of your generation from flying tattered and worn flags (any rip at all, any fading, and they need to be retired), to flying without a light on it at night, to keeping it up in inclimate weather.

Please, do tell me about how it's my generation that knows nothing.


I'm not sure that flying an unlit, tattered flag at night is exactly comparable to not knowing about judicial review, or the three branches of the U.S. government, or the concept of separation powers. I'm really not trying to get into a generational war. There are certainly uninformed and dumbass people in all generations. I do think, though, that in recent years the teaching of basic civics at the high school level has gone downhill. I will admit that I have mainly anecdotal evidence to support this contention, and I could be wrong.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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That one crazy fan
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Member Since: 7/21/2010
Location: Dubuque, IA
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/13/2017 9:40:28 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
That one crazy fan wrote:


Yes, there's a fair amount from my generation that do not get it. But there is an equal amount from yours that also don't get it, especially when it comes to things such as Judicial Review where the Supreme Court gets to decide if a law is unconstitutional. Most from your generation also do not understand flag code as I see an awful lot rules being broken by the "patriots" of your generation from flying tattered and worn flags (any rip at all, any fading, and they need to be retired), to flying without a light on it at night, to keeping it up in inclimate weather.

Please, do tell me about how it's my generation that knows nothing.


I'm not sure that flying an unlit, tattered flag at night is exactly comparable to not knowing about judicial review, or the three branches of the U.S. government, or the concept of separation powers. I'm really not trying to get into a generational war. There are certainly uninformed and dumbass people in all generations. I do think, though, that in recent years the teaching of basic civics at the high school level has gone downhill. I will admit that I have mainly anecdotal evidence to support this contention, and I could be wrong.


The flag bit is to also drive on the whole thing that for all the hot air the so-called "patriots" put out about "respect for the flag," they sure know very little about actually taking care of it. I get more upset by the flag I have to drive by on my way to the doctor that is ripped all the way through to the other end, or by the flag bikinis (thereby making it an object of sexual gratification), than I do over a bunch of players exercising their freedoms, of which that flag is a symbol.


The opposing team sucks!

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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 10,694

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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/13/2017 9:51:00 PM 
That one crazy fan wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
That one crazy fan wrote:


Yes, there's a fair amount from my generation that do not get it. But there is an equal amount from yours that also don't get it, especially when it comes to things such as Judicial Review where the Supreme Court gets to decide if a law is unconstitutional. Most from your generation also do not understand flag code as I see an awful lot rules being broken by the "patriots" of your generation from flying tattered and worn flags (any rip at all, any fading, and they need to be retired), to flying without a light on it at night, to keeping it up in inclimate weather.

Please, do tell me about how it's my generation that knows nothing.


I'm not sure that flying an unlit, tattered flag at night is exactly comparable to not knowing about judicial review, or the three branches of the U.S. government, or the concept of separation powers. I'm really not trying to get into a generational war. There are certainly uninformed and dumbass people in all generations. I do think, though, that in recent years the teaching of basic civics at the high school level has gone downhill. I will admit that I have mainly anecdotal evidence to support this contention, and I could be wrong.


The flag bit is to also drive on the whole thing that for all the hot air the so-called "patriots" put out about "respect for the flag," they sure know very little about actually taking care of it. I get more upset by the flag I have to drive by on my way to the doctor that is ripped all the way through to the other end, or by the flag bikinis (thereby making it an object of sexual gratification), than I do over a bunch of players exercising their freedoms, of which that flag is a symbol.


Yes, I'm aware of the kind of "flag hypocrisy" you are talking about. I've witnessed it myself. So I don't have an argument with you on that point. I don't have a real strong feeling against the players kneeling during the anthem. They certainly have a right to do it, unless the NFL orders them otherwise. I do think it is basically counterproductive and is likely to not amount to much in the long run. Others on here disagree with that assessment, and I don't want to rehash the various arguments we've had before in this thread.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Kevin Finnegan
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Member Since: 2/4/2005
Location: Rockton, IL
Post Count: 740

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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/14/2017 9:08:07 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
That one crazy fan wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
That one crazy fan wrote:


Yes, there's a fair amount from my generation that do not get it. But there is an equal amount from yours that also don't get it, especially when it comes to things such as Judicial Review where the Supreme Court gets to decide if a law is unconstitutional. Most from your generation also do not understand flag code as I see an awful lot rules being broken by the "patriots" of your generation from flying tattered and worn flags (any rip at all, any fading, and they need to be retired), to flying without a light on it at night, to keeping it up in inclimate weather.

Please, do tell me about how it's my generation that knows nothing.


I'm not sure that flying an unlit, tattered flag at night is exactly comparable to not knowing about judicial review, or the three branches of the U.S. government, or the concept of separation powers. I'm really not trying to get into a generational war. There are certainly uninformed and dumbass people in all generations. I do think, though, that in recent years the teaching of basic civics at the high school level has gone downhill. I will admit that I have mainly anecdotal evidence to support this contention, and I could be wrong.


The flag bit is to also drive on the whole thing that for all the hot air the so-called "patriots" put out about "respect for the flag," they sure know very little about actually taking care of it. I get more upset by the flag I have to drive by on my way to the doctor that is ripped all the way through to the other end, or by the flag bikinis (thereby making it an object of sexual gratification), than I do over a bunch of players exercising their freedoms, of which that flag is a symbol.


Yes, I'm aware of the kind of "flag hypocrisy" you are talking about. I've witnessed it myself. So I don't have an argument with you on that point. I don't have a real strong feeling against the players kneeling during the anthem. They certainly have a right to do it, unless the NFL orders them otherwise. I do think it is basically counterproductive and is likely to not amount to much in the long run. Others on here disagree with that assessment, and I don't want to rehash the various arguments we've had before in this thread.


I have to disagree with this being 'counterproductive and...likely to not amount to much in the long run.' Recently, it was announced that the NFL will be pledging between $89-$100 million to social justice causes. Do you think this happens without the outcry over the flag? I'm guessing not.

It has also raised awareness in communities and within players. Their causes have become a rallying cry in many communities. Look at Colin Kaepernick, he had the opportunity to drop the matter, say he would stand rather than kneel, and he likely would've found NFL employment. He chose not to cower to pressure and to bend on his beliefs.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/14/2017 11:22:35 AM 
finnOhio wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
That one crazy fan wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
That one crazy fan wrote:


Yes, there's a fair amount from my generation that do not get it. But there is an equal amount from yours that also don't get it, especially when it comes to things such as Judicial Review where the Supreme Court gets to decide if a law is unconstitutional. Most from your generation also do not understand flag code as I see an awful lot rules being broken by the "patriots" of your generation from flying tattered and worn flags (any rip at all, any fading, and they need to be retired), to flying without a light on it at night, to keeping it up in inclimate weather.

Please, do tell me about how it's my generation that knows nothing.


I'm not sure that flying an unlit, tattered flag at night is exactly comparable to not knowing about judicial review, or the three branches of the U.S. government, or the concept of separation powers. I'm really not trying to get into a generational war. There are certainly uninformed and dumbass people in all generations. I do think, though, that in recent years the teaching of basic civics at the high school level has gone downhill. I will admit that I have mainly anecdotal evidence to support this contention, and I could be wrong.


The flag bit is to also drive on the whole thing that for all the hot air the so-called "patriots" put out about "respect for the flag," they sure know very little about actually taking care of it. I get more upset by the flag I have to drive by on my way to the doctor that is ripped all the way through to the other end, or by the flag bikinis (thereby making it an object of sexual gratification), than I do over a bunch of players exercising their freedoms, of which that flag is a symbol.


Yes, I'm aware of the kind of "flag hypocrisy" you are talking about. I've witnessed it myself. So I don't have an argument with you on that point. I don't have a real strong feeling against the players kneeling during the anthem. They certainly have a right to do it, unless the NFL orders them otherwise. I do think it is basically counterproductive and is likely to not amount to much in the long run. Others on here disagree with that assessment, and I don't want to rehash the various arguments we've had before in this thread.


I have to disagree with this being 'counterproductive and...likely to not amount to much in the long run.' Recently, it was announced that the NFL will be pledging between $89-$100 million to social justice causes. Do you think this happens without the outcry over the flag? I'm guessing not.

It has also raised awareness in communities and within players. Their causes have become a rallying cry in many communities. Look at Colin Kaepernick, he had the opportunity to drop the matter, say he would stand rather than kneel, and he likely would've found NFL employment. He chose not to cower to pressure and to bend on his beliefs.


The NFL money is a drop in the bucket compared to the need. Many of those who know the NFL much better than I say Kaepernick would be struggling to find a team that would sign him even if none of this protest stuff had happened. I'm not saying the protest has had no positive effect, I just think on balance in the long run it's not really going to be very helpful, and may do more harm than good.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/14/2017 11:55:06 AM 
I think this thread provides really interesting insight into modern conservatism.

The standard here for Colin Kaepernick -- or anybody who attempts to protest racial inequality and police brutality -- is that you have to be a Rosa Parks or Martin Luther King Jr. or else what you're doing is pointless.

Meanwhile, to be the Senator from Alabama you can be accused of molestation by 15 girls as young as 14 and that's okay, because the ends justify the means. You can say every amendment after the 10th should be removed, and that's totally fine. You can believe Muslims shouldn't be allowed to hold office in the United States. All a-okay.

But if you want to try to raise awareness on police brutality and your methodology is construed as offensive? You'll be dismissed completely as irrelevant at best and damaging at worst. You can raise 100 million dollars for the cause you're championing and that won't be good enough. You'll be marginalized (at best) and demonized (at worst). You're not Martin Luther King, so shut up.

But your guys? Trump, Roy Moore? They don't have to be Martin Luther King Jr. to win and maintain support on the right.





Last Edited: 12/14/2017 12:05:28 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/14/2017 12:04:42 PM 
Please note that about two percent of Alabamians who would have voted for a decent GOP candidate, instead voted for a write-in. This was slightly more than Jones' margin of victory. So the deciding factor in this race was, indeed, morality over expediency.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/14/2017 12:06:33 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Please note that about two percent of Alabamians who would have voted for a decent GOP candidate, instead voted for a write-in. This was slightly more than Jones' margin of victory. So the deciding factor in this race was, indeed, morality over expediency.


That's fair. And I'm glad those Alabamians did so.

But the RNC and Republican leaders including the President of the United States raised money for and campaigned for Roy Moore.
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Kevin Finnegan
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/14/2017 2:31:49 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Please note that about two percent of Alabamians who would have voted for a decent GOP candidate, instead voted for a write-in. This was slightly more than Jones' margin of victory. So the deciding factor in this race was, indeed, morality over expediency.


This is, of course, under the assumption that every write-in vote was a Republican vote and otherwise would've gone to a Republican candidate. The number of write-ins was 22,819. The margin of victory for Jones was 20,715. My dad always writes in his name every election, as he says he hasn't found a candidate he could support over himself. He finds it his civic duty to vote, however. I do believe many of the write-ins were disgruntled Republicans, but if 90% of them were, Jones still would've had enough to win.
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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/15/2017 11:02:00 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Please note that about two percent of Alabamians who would have voted for a decent GOP candidate, instead voted for a write-in. This was slightly more than Jones' margin of victory. So the deciding factor in this race was, indeed, morality over expediency.


And yet almost half of Alabamians stilled voted for Moore. That tells you all you need to know.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/15/2017 12:07:20 PM 
DelBobcat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Please note that about two percent of Alabamians who would have voted for a decent GOP candidate, instead voted for a write-in. This was slightly more than Jones' margin of victory. So the deciding factor in this race was, indeed, morality over expediency.


And yet almost half of Alabamians stilled voted for Moore. That tells you all you need to know.


And how many people voted for that guy from Arkansas,twice,with the accusations against him,including rape ?

Sorry,but Moore,Clinton,and the Democrat and Republican legislators who have resigned recently show that,when it comes to this type of inappropriate behavior, neither side can claim the moral high ground.



Last Edited: 12/15/2017 12:08:41 PM by rpbobcat

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/15/2017 12:55:21 PM 
Found this interesting, as to be best of my knowledge she's the first female politician to be involved in one of these recent sexual harassment stories.

Kansas Dem drops out of House race amid sexual harassment allegations:

https://tinyurl.com/y8xhdmwb


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 12/15/2017 1:48:17 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Please note that about two percent of Alabamians who would have voted for a decent GOP candidate, instead voted for a write-in. This was slightly more than Jones' margin of victory. So the deciding factor in this race was, indeed, morality over expediency.


And yet almost half of Alabamians stilled voted for Moore. That tells you all you need to know.


And how many people voted for that guy from Arkansas,twice,with the accusations against him,including rape ?

Sorry,but Moore,Clinton,and the Democrat and Republican legislators who have resigned recently show that,when it comes to this type of inappropriate behavior, neither side can claim the moral high ground.



This will be my only response about Clinton because it's neither here nor there. John Oliver did a great segment on "whataboutism" that you should watch because it's what you're engaging in. The fact that Clinton did something immoral doesn't excuse Roy Moore's behavior or make it any better that people were willing to vote for him. I'd also note that Juanita Brodderick's rape allegations against Clinton came out after his second election. As far as I know he didn't get a single vote for a third term.

Clinton definitely did some bad things but Roy Moore is accused of sexually assaulting multiple women, making sexual advances/harassing countless more, and of having sexual contact with a woman as young as 14. These allegations were deemed credible by multiple folks who have worked with or known him in some capacity over the years and many residents of his hometown have said that they were public knowledge. Members of both parties called the allegations credible and encouraged people not to vote for him.

So please spare me the "what about Bill Clinton" line and the false moral equivalency. If Roy Moore was a dyed in the wool liberal Democrat there is absolutely nothing you could do to get me to vote for him.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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