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Topic:  Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services

Topic:  Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
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Uncle Wes
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  Message Not Read  Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/7/2016 12:07:08 AM 
Good article in the Messenger about how cramped parking has become with the growth to 24,000 students this year. Vedder claims the campus was designed to handle only 15,000 to 18,000 students and lack of spaces has become a quality of life issue. On a different topic one new faculty member chimed in about needing high rise condos in Athens ASAP.

http://www.athensmessenger.com/news/students-faculty-stru...


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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/7/2016 10:02:07 AM 
The article talks about parking garages costing significantly more then surface lots.
It doesn't say how much,so I ran some numbers.
Its an engineer thing.

The cost to build a surface parking lot in Northern N.J., as a "Public" (Bid ) project,is about $13.00 -$ 15.00 per square foot.
That includes curbs,drainage,fencing and lighting.

The cost to build a parking deck is about $55.00 - $60.00 per square foot.
That cost assumes the structure will be entirely above grade and can be constructed using conventional footings (no piles)

Neither cost includes design or other professional fees.

A parking structure does have a longer initial "useful life" then a surface lot.However,a surface lot can be milled and repaved for under $2.00 per square foot.

The only way building a parking structure at O.U. could be justified,from a cost effective standpoint,would be by leasing spaces or charging a "per use" fee to park there.



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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/7/2016 10:15:06 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
The article talks about parking garages costing significantly more then surface lots.
It doesn't say how much,so I ran some numbers.
Its an engineer thing.

The cost to build a surface parking lot in Northern N.J., as a "Public" (Bid ) project,is about $13.00 -$ 15.00 per square foot.
That includes curbs,drainage,fencing and lighting.

The cost to build a parking deck is about $55.00 - $60.00 per square foot.
That cost assumes the structure will be entirely above grade and can be constructed using conventional footings (no piles)

Neither cost includes design or other professional fees.

A parking structure does have a longer initial "useful life" then a surface lot.However,a surface lot can be milled and repaved for under $2.00 per square foot.

The only way building a parking structure at O.U. could be justified,from a cost effective standpoint,would be by leasing spaces or charging a "per use" fee to park there.





a "per use" and "leasing spaces" are a given if the University would build one. And I would agree with Vedder on the quality of life issue and would add that the current situation and rules is a draw back to visitors of campus, and far too many people have a negative experience.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/7/2016 2:45:43 PM 
I don't know about Ohio,but in New Jersey we handle some projects like this as a "Public/Private" partnership.

Perfect example,Metlife Stadium.
The State owns the land where it sits.
The Giants own the stadium and control all the events there.

If a parking structure is economically viable,it shouldn't be difficult to find a developer who would want to build it.
O.U. would lease the land to that company.
They then pay a yearly fee for a long term lease.

They build,operate and maintain the garage.

If they go under,the garage reverts back to O.U. as the property owner.

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Ohio69
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/7/2016 4:10:35 PM 
Wait... Why is Vedder involved in this? Parking? Isn't he retired? Is he just the go-to curmudgeon now?

How did they know to contact him about this? How did they know he was teaching?

Hmmmmm.....

Oh well, poor guy has to walk a few blocks up hill. The calamity!



Last Edited: 9/7/2016 4:16:49 PM by Ohio69


Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/7/2016 9:28:22 PM 
Ohio69 wrote:
Wait... Why is Vedder involved in this? Parking? Isn't he retired? Is he just the go-to curmudgeon now?

How did they know to contact him about this? How did they know he was teaching?

Hmmmmm.....

Oh well, poor guy has to walk a few blocks up hill. The calamity!


The last I talked with Vedder at any length, he wasn't retired, at least not completely. I saw him on the street yesterday, and ask him if he was still spreading his propaganda. He laughed, and said, "Yes."


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/8/2016 7:56:41 AM 
I think this is a non-starter.

Firstly, and less to my major point, I think it's worth pointing out the master plan for Ohio University's Athens' campus has a major shift of parking towards the outer rim of campus (specifically South Green with old dorms going down and new dorms being built "inwards")

My main point though is that parking should not be a major focus/concern for this school. We're blessed with an incredibly walkable campus. Further, we're seeing a MASSIVE demographic shift away from future college generations owning cars. In five years, a huge increased % of students will just be using Uber or maybe even a driverless Uber to get around rather than a car that needs parked. That same demographic shift makes the fuss about parking Uptown equally dumb. Get with the times.


I've seen crazier things happen.

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/8/2016 10:02:13 AM 
The Optimist wrote:
I think this is a non-starter.

Firstly, and less to my major point, I think it's worth pointing out the master plan for Ohio University's Athens' campus has a major shift of parking towards the outer rim of campus (specifically South Green with old dorms going down and new dorms being built "inwards")

My main point though is that parking should not be a major focus/concern for this school. We're blessed with an incredibly walkable campus. Further, we're seeing a MASSIVE demographic shift away from future college generations owning cars. In five years, a huge increased % of students will just be using Uber or maybe even a driverless Uber to get around rather than a car that needs parked. That same demographic shift makes the fuss about parking Uptown equally dumb. Get with the times.


I agree 100% about the "walkability" of O.U.'s campus.

However I don't agree that Uber or similar services will eliminate the need for more surface parking,in Athens.

Uber works well only in certain specific situations and environments.

Based on the development projects I've been involved with recently (commercial and residential) the trend is to provide more,rather then less, parking.
We provide a drop off/pick up for Uber and "Zip" cars,but that's it.

Uber works well,primarily in densely populated "urban" areas or when used for "occasional" trips where you would use a taxi or limo.

I haven't seen any Transportation Studies showing its use as a viable means for daily commuting,especially when your talking about relatively large numbers of people,commuting from a number of separate locations.
In fact the Studies I've seen suggest opposite.

As far as driverless vehicles,I wouldn't hold my breath.
Even when the technology is there,the liabilities in the case of an accident, let alone a fatality,will make it difficult to implement.




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oldkatz
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/8/2016 10:12:44 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Ohio69 wrote:
Wait... Why is Vedder involved in this? Parking? Isn't he retired? Is he just the go-to curmudgeon now?

How did they know to contact him about this? How did they know he was teaching?

Hmmmmm.....

Oh well, poor guy has to walk a few blocks up hill. The calamity!


The last I talked with Vedder at any length, he wasn't retired, at least not completely. I saw him on the street yesterday, and ask him if he was still spreading his propaganda. He laughed, and said, "Yes."



Damn.....I always felt that OCF was the go-to curmudgeon!


"All my inside sources tell me I have no inside sources." Salvatore "money bucks" Mafiosiano.

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/8/2016 11:17:13 AM 
Even with our campus being very walkable, you have to find parking to get to campus. And this is NOT just a campus issue, parking anywhere is town can be a poor experience for outsiders.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/8/2016 11:19:30 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Even with our campus being very walkable, you have to find parking to get to campus. And this is NOT just a campus issue, parking anywhere in town can be a poor experience for outsiders.


+1

oldkatz just drives his Vietnam-Era APC, bulldozes cars out of the way, and doesn't worry about a thing. His response to the Athens parking problem: "What me worry?" ;-)




"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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mcbin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/8/2016 11:56:29 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:

Based on the development projects I've been involved with recently (commercial and residential) the trend is to provide more,rather then less, parking.
We provide a drop off/pick up for Uber and "Zip" cars,but that's it.


Not sure what the national trend is here, but I can say that the trend at least for where parking is already strained/scarce in Columbus, is to create as little parking as one can get away with(most of the time). Not saying I'm in favor of that, but it is a trend that hasn't been the case until somewhat recently. It's also coupled with a big push to make bicycling more feasible, free shuttles up/down High st, etc.

At least they're talking about it/trying in Columbus. In Athens it's been an issue for 20+ years, and seems to be the same 'ol mess.

Will be interesting to see how it all works out. Also would be interesting to see Lyft/Uber's policies on smaller cities. Or is it Athens that is stopping that from happening?

Few examples:
http://www.columbusunderground.com/11-story-building-prop...

http://www.columbusunderground.com/work-starting-at-3rd-a...

http://www.columbusunderground.com/proposal-calls-for-24-...

http://www.columbusunderground.com/apartment-building-wit...
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/9/2016 7:32:01 AM 
Most of the projects I work on are in "suburban" North Jersey.
There aren't a lot of mass transit options,unless you work in NYC ,that makes parking critical.

Residential projects must meet State standards for parking.
For a "high rise" residential building its .9 spaces per unit for a 1 bedroom and 1.3 spaces per unit a 2 bedroom.

That number is pretty much set in stone.
The local approving Board cannot reduce it.
Any reduction in parking has to be approved by the State.

Mixed use buildings aren't subject to the same requirements.Most towns I work in require a minimum of 2 spaces per unit.
The one thing they do allow is some "shared" parking,where some spaces are used by the commercial/retail uses by day and residents at night.

Office buildings are required to have 1 space per 225 square feet of gross floor area.Office complexes also do shared parking with other uses like theaters.

Cities like Trenton,Paterson,Newark,Morristown used to be more lax on parking,relying on private lots and/or garages,but lately most of the redevelopment projects there have several floors of parking.
Then again,in Paterson,Newark or Camden no one wants to walk from a building to a parking lot once it gets dark.



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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/9/2016 9:51:11 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:

However I don't agree that Uber or similar services will eliminate the need for more surface parking,in Athens.

As far as driverless vehicles,I wouldn't hold my breath.
Even when the technology is there,the liabilities in the case of an accident, let alone a fatality,will make it difficult to implement.


It's the combination of driverless cars and Uber that makes me think we'll see a massive decrease in demand for parking in the fairly near-term future.

For all the fears over the reliability of driverless cars, the statistics are clear. Computers are much safer drivers than humans. Old people won't be quick to trust computers, but I guarantee you insurance companies will very quickly recognize the decreased liability/costs in driverless cars and adjust rates accordingly. Younger people, just like the demographic of students in Athens, will be the ones adapting to this quickly. If they are able to call a driverless Uber to shuttle them around, they will choose that over the cost of owning a car. The ride-sharing economy kills the need for parking. These things will very often be shuttling around with need to park. The technology is already here.


I've seen crazier things happen.

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/9/2016 12:47:50 PM 
I presume driverless cars would have to be programmed to obey all traffic laws,including speed limits.

That's gonna increase a user's travel time a lot,especially if they're going on Interstates.From my experience,the posted speed limit is pretty informational only.

Interesting question.
If, for some reason, a driveless car does get pulled over,for something like a broken taillight,who gets the ticket ?
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/9/2016 1:24:27 PM 
I don't see driverless cars as a "near future" kind of thing. Distant future, yes, but not tomorrow--at least not outside of the biggest metropolitan areas. I personally wouldn't like it. I like my independence too much to rely on scheduling transportation for every trip I take. When I visit big cities, it's expected. You take a cab every where. But that doesn't mean I have to like it.
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/9/2016 3:22:19 PM 
The Optimist wrote:
I think this is a non-starter.

Firstly, and less to my major point, I think it's worth pointing out the master plan for Ohio University's Athens' campus has a major shift of parking towards the outer rim of campus (specifically South Green with old dorms going down and new dorms being built "inwards")

My main point though is that parking should not be a major focus/concern for this school. We're blessed with an incredibly walkable campus. Further, we're seeing a MASSIVE demographic shift away from future college generations owning cars. In five years, a huge increased % of students will just be using Uber or maybe even a driverless Uber to get around rather than a car that needs parked. That same demographic shift makes the fuss about parking Uptown equally dumb. Get with the times.


I agree that the overall trend is away from personally owned automobiles. Car ownership is already seen as a liability in dense cities, and it is not hard to foresee things like Zipcar, Uber, cycling, and public transit rendering car ownership a lot less appealing for students in Athens. It may take a while to come to the point of dramatic change, but I definitely agree with Optimist that reshaping the campus for even more cars is foolish.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/9/2016 3:31:34 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
I don't see driverless cars as a "near future" kind of thing. Distant future, yes, but not tomorrow--at least not outside of the biggest metropolitan areas. I personally wouldn't like it. I like my independence too much to rely on scheduling transportation for every trip I take. When I visit big cities, it's expected. You take a cab every where. But that doesn't mean I have to like it.


If you go to driverless cars in NYC they'd have to incorporate a loud speaker system to curse at pedestrians,and do it in something other then English.
Lest anyone think I'm exaggerating about English. N.Y.C just changed the requirements to get a taxi license.You no longer need to be able to speak English.

Last Edited: 9/9/2016 3:35:33 PM by rpbobcat

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/9/2016 3:50:14 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
I don't see driverless cars as a "near future" kind of thing. Distant future, yes, but not tomorrow--at least not outside of the biggest metropolitan areas. I personally wouldn't like it. I like my independence too much to rely on scheduling transportation for every trip I take. When I visit big cities, it's expected. You take a cab every where. But that doesn't mean I have to like it.


If you go to driverless cars in NYC they'd have to incorporate a loud speaker system to curse at pedestrians,and do it in something other then English.
Lest anyone think I'm exaggerating about English. N.Y.C just changed the requirements to get a taxi license.You no longer need to be able to speak English.



True. Another challenge: How do you handle transient traffic--out of towners who are visiting for business/pleasure? Are they taking public transportation to Athens and then Uber-ing around town? Sounds miserable.
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mcbin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/10/2016 12:31:35 AM 
A few disjointed thoughts, and thank you RPBobcat for the explanations. I admit I don't know the Columbus requirements for parking (if there are any at all).

In Columbus where I live, I could go 90-95% of the days without a car. I walk to work, ride my bike, use a Car2go, the bus, Uber in a pinch. But there are times when I absolutely need it, and those 5/10% of times it makes me have a car. I'm guessing some in Athens may feel similar. (for the record I never had a car while at OU)

Regardless of if there is a true need, one should think about the potential for scaring away prospective students, especially out-of-state/international, if it is widely known as not having enough parking. But I still think it's sorta BS about not being able to park. It's not being able to park within 2 minutes walk of where you work/live/go-to class that is probably not available. Is that such a big need? I've got no idea.

If you think the streets near Miller's Chicken or the whole Maplewood Street area neighborhood are completely full all of the time I'd highly disagree.

Vedder is an economist... And so if he's so certain of this void of parking, why isn't there one being financed/built and turned into a REIT?

Absolutely cannot wait for driverless cars. You could work a full day on the way to vacation, and be there when your workday is done. I think cars like that will allow people to live further and further away from work, and no longer worry about a 30/60/++ 'commute' as the trip could be spent working and not time wasted.

Short of Tabs taxi, is there really public transportation in Athens? Please forgive my ignorance, but I had no idea, other than the school bus that takes students from the UCommons to Court St.

Uber should be everywhere that it is economically viable. Our trip to Montgomery AL for the bowl with only taxi service was dreadful with no competition. (we sure got spoiled quick by Uber/Lyft)


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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/10/2016 11:54:17 AM 
mcbin wrote:
But I still think it's sorta BS about not being able to park. It's not being able to park within 2 minutes walk of where you work/live/go-to class that is probably not available. Is that such a big need? I've got no idea.






Bingo. Case in point, go to the mall where there are lots of spaces and watch people circle and circle for the closest spot possible even on a sunny day. The only parking problem is those who want to park in the front door of the store/business they are visiting. Athens doesn't really have a parking problem, they have a space management issue. I wrote an article for the Messenger on this a few years back so I'll see if I can find it and post.
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RSBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/11/2016 10:02:14 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
mcbin wrote:
But I still think it's sorta BS about not being able to park. It's not being able to park within 2 minutes walk of where you work/live/go-to class that is probably not available. Is that such a big need? I've got no idea.






Bingo. Case in point, go to the mall where there are lots of spaces and watch people circle and circle for the closest spot possible even on a sunny day. The only parking problem is those who want to park in the front door of the store/business they are visiting. Athens doesn't really have a parking problem, they have a space management issue. I wrote an article for the Messenger on this a few years back so I'll see if I can find it and post.


After a couple loops around Court St looking for a space in front of my destination it always finally occurs to me - Hey, there is a parking garage.......


RS Bobcat

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Uncle Wes
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/12/2016 1:01:18 AM 
A lot of good ideas in this thread more than what are presented in the article. There is a push to manage traffic to perimeter of campus where its the longest possible walk from the campus core. I don't know about everyday but if they could push the game day traffic down Richland and into the Dairy Barn area? That's how its done at highly attended athletic events they park cars everywhere there is an inch of grass. OU Inn is down there where parking happens for those staying at the hotel. Carryout across the street that can party supply. University had a policy to put RV's up on the Ridges yet they want to direct cars over to Stimpson Ave.


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2008 Landon Cohen, 7th Round (Detroit Lions)

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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/12/2016 1:29:57 AM 
What's the situation with shuttles from remote lots or locations--number, number of seats, frequency, cost?

Are there any shuttles at all? Are they just offered for special events (sports events, conferences, graduation and such)?

Would seem to be cheaper and more flexible than a fixed monument structure such as a parking lot.

Maybe combine shuttles and parking lots or structures?



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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 9/12/2016 7:18:19 PM 
I can't understand people who 1. Don't believe driverless technology is coming soon. 2. Aren't excited as hell about it.

I've long been fascinated by this topic. My eldest kid is 9, my hope is driverless technology is fairly prevalent by the time he is 16. I personally think we are right on track.

I don't think people realize the endless benefits of this. Car manufacturers recognize the positives are so deep and rich that they are pouring billions into it. We lose hundreds of thousands of people to auto accidents every year.

The challenge will be clearing the hurdle of flat earthers...the same people who resist Nuclear power over Coal because it is scary, even though it is infinitely better and safer...or resist GMO crop technology even though it has been proven 1,000 times over to be safer and healthier while saving millions of lives from starvation....or worst of all, the anti-vax crowd. You can say you don't trust computers to our driving, but think about what you're saying.

Computers don't text, they don't fall asleep, they don't drink alcohol or do drugs or have seizures or heart attacks. They are trained and tested extensively before being put into action, while people sit thru some classes and are observed driving for 10 minutes before being thrown onto the road. The technology will save endless lives and heartache. They have backup plans and contingencies galore. Computers are also infinitely more efficient than humans. The same traffic jam with a road full of humans could be doubled and not have a single slow down with a road full of computers. They'll also be significantly better for the environment.

It will eliminate one of the most prevalent sources of stress in the world. Car ownership and operation is a drag in every sense. Imagine your 2 car garage becomes a nice big storage shed. Imagine you have a monthly payment for car service instead of the stress and ups and downs of insurance, service, gas & car payments.

The development opportunities in the city will be endless. Imagine if all the parking garages in downtown Chicago go away, the possibilities for that real estate are endless.

The handicap, elderly, young, etc would benefit greatly. The regulation and licensing would fall on the car companies and freed from the individuals.

I could go own. It runs much deeper than just being able to catch a nap or knock out some work during your commute, which yes would be awesome. Just because we can't fully understand how it will all work doesn't make it impossible. I know it is hard to let go of all the great memories operating a vehicle and thinking we could live in a world without it, but I whole heartedly believe nearly everyone on this board will experience this world (insert joke about various old poster here), and I think it will make the world a much happier place.


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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