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Topic:  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far

Topic:  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/2/2013 9:06:58 PM 
The debate is painted as one between the government enforcing and requiring health insurance and those who think its too expensive or wrong on principal. In the end its not going to make much of a difference to the overall economy (individuals yes). The real issue is the loss of jobs and lack of competitiveness of the American economy to those in emerging markets. I thought the auto bailout proved successful and I'm wondering where we would be today in the steel industry had the same intervention 30 years ago. With the debt as big as what it is the country has to grow its way out of it which could use strategic investment by the government. DOT and NIH dollars are ok but specific industries would benefit from targeted investment.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/2/2013 9:12:28 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
If you want those 535 knuckleheads in Congress to get something done, just cancel all games of each and every one of their alma maters this weekend.   If the masses who continue to vote these chumps into office year after year can't get their dose of football this weekend, something might change.  So sad but so true.


They are always very self serving. Filibuster a bill for 24 hours during a key vote to gain notoriety. What they want is higher stature and power concluding their careers with multi-million dollar book deals when they are done. State sponsored entertainment is what it ends up as. 

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/2/2013 10:03:57 PM 
Choo choo!

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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Gangsta Pete
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/2/2013 10:13:28 PM 
OhioStunter wrote:
What's next? Are they going to shut down our national parks and monuments too?



"There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path."  -Morpheus
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RSBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 12:27:33 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
DayvidGallagher wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
DayvidGallagher wrote:
the general public overwhelmingly being in favor of it.


That's just flat wrong.


Overwhelming may have been an exaggeration but the majority at least are in favor of it:
  • As mentioned above an argument could be made that the most recent presidential election was mainly about healthcare.
  • Polls show that 46% of the public is against Obamacare, while 37% is against the Affordable care act.  Aside from the fact they are the same thing and this just highlights that people are idiots, in either case the majority are for it.

My point however was that the people who want the shutdown are not the majority of the public, or even the majority of republicans.  Currently our government and more importantly our football is being held hostage by a small faction of the republican party who are controlled by an even smaller faction of the general public who are swing (between two republicans) voters.


Quoting polling is nearly meaningless, especially in a debate that is as hotly contested as this one. The effort to shutdown this Navy game is more about playing politics and "Making it hurt." If you think that's caused by a small faction of republicans, you're way off.

Edit: If you want to debate it with me offline, send me a PM. I know this is bound for a lockdown.


So - if not polling - where was your evidence for the "flat out wrong" statement?

 

RS Bobcat

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 1:07:01 AM 
JSF wrote:
Choo choo!

Odd, this train is behind schedule. We should be in Siberia already.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Maryland Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 8:40:29 AM 
The game is being played.  The Navy athletic department took it to the Secretary of Defense and gained approval.  

If you see a fan on TV a Bobcats hat and Navy shirt that's me!

Last Edited: 10/3/2013 8:40:50 AM by Maryland Bobcat
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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 9:36:09 AM 
RSBobcat wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
DayvidGallagher wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
DayvidGallagher wrote:
the general public overwhelmingly being in favor of it.


That's just flat wrong.


Overwhelming may have been an exaggeration but the majority at least are in favor of it:
  • As mentioned above an argument could be made that the most recent presidential election was mainly about healthcare.
  • Polls show that 46% of the public is against Obamacare, while 37% is against the Affordable care act.  Aside from the fact they are the same thing and this just highlights that people are idiots, in either case the majority are for it.

My point however was that the people who want the shutdown are not the majority of the public, or even the majority of republicans.  Currently our government and more importantly our football is being held hostage by a small faction of the republican party who are controlled by an even smaller faction of the general public who are swing (between two republicans) voters.


Quoting polling is nearly meaningless, especially in a debate that is as hotly contested as this one. The effort to shutdown this Navy game is more about playing politics and "Making it hurt." If you think that's caused by a small faction of republicans, you're way off.

Edit: If you want to debate it with me offline, send me a PM. I know this is bound for a lockdown.


So - if not polling - where was your evidence for the "flat out wrong" statement?

 


Well, everyone he knows is against it, so the entire country MUST hate it....

...but wait, everyone I know supports it! How is that possible? Could it be that anecdotal information and personal experience is not as reliable as scientific polling!? Surely not!

Bottom line: Most people support the law. A lot don't, but even among the ones that don't support the law most don't think that the government should be shut down to make this point--which is not going to stop the law anyway. 

Hello Siberia!

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 9:42:54 AM 
bornacatfan wrote:
DayvidGallagher wrote:
[..... despite the general public overwhelmingly being in favor of it.



agree with much of what you are alluding to but.....

perhaps it is just where I live and travel....the midwest.....but I have talked to very few folks on a daily basis who are actually in favor of it or think the government is going to do a better job running health care than they have doing anything else......I am not sure the general public can be characterized as being overwhelmingly in favor of it....nor do I think the folk saying the last election was a mandate supporting health care reform is accurate either. IMHO the last election was not the people saying I support health care as much as it saying "I do not see the alternative being any better than what is there now"....

the national park services are not open. Our local schools that are in DC or on feild trips and their traditional fall trips to National park sites are either cancelling, rescheduling or doing self guided tours.

Speaking of rescheduling. How does the BCS system account for the unplayed games and how do those athletic programs sitting idle deal with the contractual agreements the service academies have with them? How do they account for the loss of game day revenue.



This is a pretty serious misinterpretation of what the law does. Under the ACA, the government doesn't run the healthcare system any more so than they do now. Their role is to run exchanges, which are nothing more than websites, where consumers can compare insurance offerings by private insurance companies. The government isn't taking over healthcare from private industry, it's providing private industry 25 million new customers.

I do agree with you about last election not being a mandate on the ACA, however. In order for that to be the case, Governor Romney would have had to, you know, present an alternative. Which he didn't. In fact, through all of the right's vitriol about the ACA, an alternative has yet to be provided. At the very least, the ACA at least tries to address the fact that in the richest country on earth, 50 million people don't have access to healthcare. It's not ideal, it's not what most on the left would have designed, but it does attempt to address a fundamental failing of our society, and so far the only alternative I see being offered on the other side is sticking our heads in the sand and pretending there's no problem.

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 11:49:37 AM 
DelBobcat wrote:
RSBobcat wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
DayvidGallagher wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
DayvidGallagher wrote:
the general public overwhelmingly being in favor of it.


That's just flat wrong.


Overwhelming may have been an exaggeration but the majority at least are in favor of it:
  • As mentioned above an argument could be made that the most recent presidential election was mainly about healthcare.
  • Polls show that 46% of the public is against Obamacare, while 37% is against the Affordable care act.  Aside from the fact they are the same thing and this just highlights that people are idiots, in either case the majority are for it.

My point however was that the people who want the shutdown are not the majority of the public, or even the majority of republicans.  Currently our government and more importantly our football is being held hostage by a small faction of the republican party who are controlled by an even smaller faction of the general public who are swing (between two republicans) voters.


Quoting polling is nearly meaningless, especially in a debate that is as hotly contested as this one. The effort to shutdown this Navy game is more about playing politics and "Making it hurt." If you think that's caused by a small faction of republicans, you're way off.

Edit: If you want to debate it with me offline, send me a PM. I know this is bound for a lockdown.


So - if not polling - where was your evidence for the "flat out wrong" statement?

 


Well, everyone he knows is against it, so the entire country MUST hate it....

...but wait, everyone I know supports it! How is that possible? Could it be that anecdotal information and personal experience is not as reliable as scientific polling!? Surely not!

Bottom line: Most people support the law. A lot don't, but even among the ones that don't support the law most don't think that the government should be shut down to make this point--which is not going to stop the law anyway. 

Hello Siberia!


I offer you the same thing, PM me if you want to debate it. This is obviously not the place, unless you want to simply grandstand. I will say this, where do you get your "bottom line"? Are you contradicting your own statement about anecdotal evidence?
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 11:53:24 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The government isn't taking over healthcare from private industry, it's providing private industry 25 million new customers.



It's forcing healthcare on the population, whether you like it or not. If you don't like it, you pay a penalty. And that's not a government takeover? 

Sheesh.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 12:19:05 PM 
It's an illusion to claim that this is the Government taking over an unregulated industry. Government has controlled healthcare for a long time. Long gone are the days when, if you were sick, you ran down to your local Doctor, who ran his office however he felt like it. Regulations control what kinds of policies are eligible for deductability. Regulations control how healthcare is administered, and what records must be kept. Courts require that all medical practitioners provide only the most up-to-date medicines and treatments. Insurance companies control what treatments are given, too. A big chunk of patients are on Medicare and Medicaid. One can debate whether or not these are good things, but they are also the reason why healthcare costs have risen as fast as they have for the last 30 years.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Bobcatbob
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 1:18:29 PM 
L.C. wrote:
It's an illusion to claim that this is the Government taking over an unregulated industry. Government has controlled healthcare for a long time. Long gone are the days when, if you were sick, you ran down to your local Doctor, who ran his office however he felt like it. Regulations control what kinds of policies are eligible for deductability. Regulations control how healthcare is administered, and what records must be kept. Courts require that all medical practitioners provide only the most up-to-date medicines and treatments. Insurance companies control what treatments are given, too. A big chunk of patients are on Medicare and Medicaid. One can debate whether or not these are good things, but they are also the reason why healthcare costs have risen as fast as they have for the last 30 years.


All true and, as much as it pains me to say so, it's an industry (and I use the term pejoratively)  that cries out for regulation.  Not unlike the administration of collegiate sports these days.
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perimeterpost
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 1:57:45 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The government isn't taking over healthcare from private industry, it's providing private industry 25 million new customers.



It's forcing healthcare on the population, whether you like it or not. If you don't like it, you pay a penalty. And that's not a government takeover? 

Sheesh.


Let's say you're crossing the street to go check out a sale on Western shirts that are made to look like the American flag, when out of nowhere, -BANG!-, you get run over by a bus driven by an uninsured illegal immigrant. Now, because you're a Freedom lovin', flag waivin' patriot that has used his God given Liberties to chose to not buy health insurance, you're going to have to pay for the emergency medical care you receive out of pocket.

But, do to the extent of your injuries, when you finally leave the hospital 6 weeks later you're stuck with a bill for $280K and have no means to pay for it. Here's where the fun part begins- the debt collectors will put a lien on your house and will eventually foreclose on it and force you into bankruptcy, leaving you penniless and homeless. But in the mean time the hospital will push your costs back onto all of the other patients, raising their costs too.

Now, the insurance companies make huge profits and can afford to payout multi-million dollar annual bonuses to their executives, but they're not going to stop doing that just because the hospital is raising its rates to cover your unpaid medical treatments. So now insurance rates must go up and businesses are forced to either raise their insurance costs to their employees and/or offer insurance plans that leave them under-insured with high deductibles and low max payouts, or in some cases, without insurance all together.

This then leads to more uninsured or under-insured people arriving in Emergency Rooms needing medical treatments they can't pay for, and the cycle continues, leaving us with the bloated, untenable health care system we see today.

So, we have a choice- we can either require everyone to pay into a system that eventually everyone will use, OR, we can honor the choice to opt out of paying into the system by refusing to offer emergency medical services to those who chose to opt out. This way when you get hit by a bus, if the EMT's don't find enough cash or available credit on your person they can just drag you to the side of the street where you can die with all of your freedoms and liberties fully intact.

The "free market" has not worked itself out on its own, the Govt stepping in to correct course is NOT a govt takeover. If you can find a way for us to continue to give people a service even if they don't pay for it, let me know and I'll support it. But the reality is, everyone takes from the system at some point, so everyone needs to put in.

MY STATE. MY TEAM.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 2:10:58 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The government isn't taking over healthcare from private industry, it's providing private industry 25 million new customers.



It's forcing healthcare on the population, whether you like it or not. If you don't like it, you pay a penalty. And that's not a government takeover? 

Sheesh.


Healthcare is forced on the sick. There are 44 uninsured Americans. One of them gets in a car accident, gets shot, ends up with a serious flu, and emergency rooms legally have to treat them due to the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act. Hospitals routinely provide hundreds of millions of dollars in un-reimbursed medical care; to recoup the cost of that treatment, they raise the prices of their offerings, which are then the starting point for their negotiations with insurance companies regarding the price of insurance plans. Right now, the cost of treating uninsured Americans falls on insured Americans and the Healthcare industry. The ACA forces people to either a) buy an insurance plan, or b) pay an annual tax to create a slush fund so that the cost of insurance doesn't keep rising alongside the cost of medical care--which it has been for twenty years. Uninsured Americans cost this country huge amounts every single year, and the rest of us pick up the bill. By "forcing healthcare on the population" you're accounting for these costs, providing private insurers with far more patients, and creating a slush fund with individual mandate funds to pay for medical care provided to the uninsured. The additional patients, along with the individual mandate funds will, with time, drive costs down for the rest of us and work to address the untenable cost of healthcare in this country.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 2:13:40 PM 
perimeterpost wrote:
....OR, we can honor the choice to opt out of paying into the system by refusing to offer emergency medical services to those who chose to opt out. This way when you get hit by a bus, if the EMT's don't find enough cash or available credit on your person they can just drag you to the side of the street where you can die with all of your freedoms and liberties fully intact.

This, of course, is the appropriate solution. It's how the free market normally works. You don't choose to pay Time Warner? Fine. You don't get cable. No problem.

perimeterpost wrote:
The "free market" has not worked itself out on its own, the Govt stepping in to correct course is NOT a govt takeover. If you can find a way for us to continue to give people a service even if they don't pay for it, let me know and I'll support it. But the reality is, everyone takes from the system at some point, so everyone needs to put in.

Nope. The "free market" was working just fine until about the 1970s, when the government started meddling. The hospital can't refuse to treat those that can't pay. Because the government stepped in and meddled, the system doesn't work. So, if Government is the problem in the first place, is more government the answer?

It is true that this isn't a "government takeover" because the government took over a long time ago.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 2:18:46 PM 
perimeterpost wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The government isn't taking over healthcare from private industry, it's providing private industry 25 million new customers.



It's forcing healthcare on the population, whether you like it or not. If you don't like it, you pay a penalty. And that's not a government takeover? 

Sheesh.


Let's say you're crossing the street to go check out a sale on Western shirts that are made to look like the American flag, when out of nowhere, -BANG!-, you get run over by a bus driven by an uninsured illegal immigrant. Now, because you're a Freedom lovin', flag waivin' patriot that has used his God given Liberties to chose to not buy health insurance, you're going to have to pay for the emergency medical care you receive out of pocket.

But, do to the extent of your injuries, when you finally leave the hospital 6 weeks later you're stuck with a bill for $280K and have no means to pay for it. Here's where the fun part begins- the debt collectors will put a lien on your house and will eventually foreclose on it and force you into bankruptcy, leaving you penniless and homeless. But in the mean time the hospital will push your costs back onto all of the other patients, raising their costs too.

Now, the insurance companies make huge profits and can afford to payout multi-million dollar annual bonuses to their executives, but they're not going to stop doing that just because the hospital is raising its rates to cover your unpaid medical treatments. So now insurance rates must go up and businesses are forced to either raise their insurance costs to their employees and/or offer insurance plans that leave them under-insured with high deductibles and low max payouts, or in some cases, without insurance all together.

This then leads to more uninsured or under-insured people arriving in Emergency Rooms needing medical treatments they can't pay for, and the cycle continues, leaving us with the bloated, untenable health care system we see today.

So, we have a choice- we can either require everyone to pay into a system that eventually everyone will use, OR, we can honor the choice to opt out of paying into the system by refusing to offer emergency medical services to those who chose to opt out. This way when you get hit by a bus, if the EMT's don't find enough cash or available credit on your person they can just drag you to the side of the street where you can die with all of your freedoms and liberties fully intact.

The "free market" has not worked itself out on its own, the Govt stepping in to correct course is NOT a govt takeover. If you can find a way for us to continue to give people a service even if they don't pay for it, let me know and I'll support it. But the reality is, everyone takes from the system at some point, so everyone needs to put in.


I will debate you on MANY/MOST of your points, although that may be pointless. You seem to be convinced of yourself. However, I don't think this is the place, but so far this thread has lived on.

If our medical industry were not so completely screwed up, as described by LC in a previous post, your described injury would come no where close to 280k. However, some people accept a 280k bill and just shrug their shoulders and say, "who cares... I'm not paying for it." Which, is the real reason our system has spiraled out of control, and this "fix" will make it far, far worse.

Your BS potshots notwithstanding, I'll debate you on all of this.

The free market has not worked itself out because it's NOT A FREE MARKET. Hello! Are you in there? Government overruled the free market of health care LONG AGO, and is now attempting to fix their own ineptitude with more ineptitude.

Watch where your slinging arrows. Try to have a reasonable debate without the personal attacks. If you're capable.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 2:28:34 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
By "forcing healthcare on the population" you're accounting for these costs, providing private insurers with far more patients, and creating a slush fund with individual mandate funds to pay for medical care provided to the uninsured. The additional patients, along with the individual mandate funds will, with time, drive costs down for the rest of us and work to address the untenable cost of healthcare in this country.


This is pure fantasy. There will never be a "slush fund" realized from this Act. You are adding millions of people to the insured roles who are either a) young and relatively healthy, and also not financially capable of paying huge premiums, and (mostly) b) people who don't have any money at all and will amount to huge additional costs, especially when they discover they now have "free" healthcare. Of course, all this is NOT free, and it will fall onto the backs of the middle class, who's premiums will skyrocket and work opportunities will shrink.
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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 2:46:12 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
RSBobcat wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
DayvidGallagher wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
DayvidGallagher wrote:
the general public overwhelmingly being in favor of it.


That's just flat wrong.


Overwhelming may have been an exaggeration but the majority at least are in favor of it:
  • As mentioned above an argument could be made that the most recent presidential election was mainly about healthcare.
  • Polls show that 46% of the public is against Obamacare, while 37% is against the Affordable care act.  Aside from the fact they are the same thing and this just highlights that people are idiots, in either case the majority are for it.

My point however was that the people who want the shutdown are not the majority of the public, or even the majority of republicans.  Currently our government and more importantly our football is being held hostage by a small faction of the republican party who are controlled by an even smaller faction of the general public who are swing (between two republicans) voters.


Quoting polling is nearly meaningless, especially in a debate that is as hotly contested as this one. The effort to shutdown this Navy game is more about playing politics and "Making it hurt." If you think that's caused by a small faction of republicans, you're way off.

Edit: If you want to debate it with me offline, send me a PM. I know this is bound for a lockdown.


So - if not polling - where was your evidence for the "flat out wrong" statement?

 


Well, everyone he knows is against it, so the entire country MUST hate it....

...but wait, everyone I know supports it! How is that possible? Could it be that anecdotal information and personal experience is not as reliable as scientific polling!? Surely not!

Bottom line: Most people support the law. A lot don't, but even among the ones that don't support the law most don't think that the government should be shut down to make this point--which is not going to stop the law anyway. 

Hello Siberia!


I offer you the same thing, PM me if you want to debate it. This is obviously not the place, unless you want to simply grandstand. I will say this, where do you get your "bottom line"? Are you contradicting your own statement about anecdotal evidence?


72% of Americans disapprove shutting the government down over the AFA.

59% of those that do not support the AFA still think that the government shouldn't be shut down over it. 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57605822/poll-americans-not-happy-about-shutdown-more-blame-gop/

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 2:58:06 PM 
Gee, I wonder if I can find a poll to support my position...


"The CNN poll found that the public is growing more skeptical of Obamacare – 57 percent say they oppose the law, up 3 percentage points from a poll in May."

And by the way, we're debating whether or not the American people support Obamacare--not whether nor not they support a government shutdown.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2013/0930/Obamacare...
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perimeterpost
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 3:01:46 PM 
relax, I wasn't using "you" as the specific you, but as a general you. My use of "you" below will be specific, however.

Are you saying that the problem is that we DON"T allow people to die in the street who can't afford medical treatment?

Your comment that the problem is people just accept a $280K bill and say so what, I'm not paying for it- what are they supposed to do? Who are these people that have hundreds of thousands of dollars in petty cash on hand to cover an unforeseen medical emergency but yet don't have insurance? Is that common?

It sounds like to me that you're upset that people who can barely afford to make ends meet as it is are not fiscally responsible enough to keep 8-10 years of gross income on hand, just in case.

If the Govt stepping in and saying that hospitals can't put people on the curb to die if they don't have any money is a govt takeover then I guess I'm all for a govt takeover.

And, if Govt provided health insurance is good enough for every member of Congress and for all the members of our Military then why is it such an evil thing for me to have too?

MY STATE. MY TEAM.
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Bobcat110
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 3:05:16 PM 
DayvidGallagher wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
DayvidGallagher wrote:
the general public overwhelmingly being in favor of it.


That's just flat wrong.


Overwhelming may have been an exaggeration but the majority at least are in favor of it:
  • As mentioned above an argument could be made that the most recent presidential election was mainly about healthcare.
  • Polls show that 46% of the public is against Obamacare, while 37% is against the Affordable care act.  Aside from the fact they are the same thing and this just highlights that people are idiots, in either case the majority are for it
OR....could it be that 83% of the public is against the government involved/forced healthcare insurance? I get the Jimmy Kimmel joke regarding semantics ... "Let's make people look like idiots because they don't know what the Government implemented healthcare insurance program is called".  Not sure I would jump to the conclusion that a majority are for government healthcare reform because of semantic positioning of poll questions.  

However, sounds like all military football games will played this weekend.  Standard governmental agency protocol: shutdown the most visible, direct impacting services first to get public reaction, whether it's a school district taking away busing and sports on up to the Feds kicking people of it's national parks/monuments, vets out of their war memorials or dropping military sports.  Glad to see they were able to work around it.
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Paul Graham
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 3:07:06 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
perimeterpost wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The government isn't taking over healthcare from private industry, it's providing private industry 25 million new customers.



It's forcing healthcare on the population, whether you like it or not. If you don't like it, you pay a penalty. And that's not a government takeover? 

Sheesh.


Let's say you're crossing the street to go check out a sale on Western shirts that are made to look like the American flag, when out of nowhere, -BANG!-, you get run over by a bus driven by an uninsured illegal immigrant. Now, because you're a Freedom lovin', flag waivin' patriot that has used his God given Liberties to chose to not buy health insurance, you're going to have to pay for the emergency medical care you receive out of pocket.

But, do to the extent of your injuries, when you finally leave the hospital 6 weeks later you're stuck with a bill for $280K and have no means to pay for it. Here's where the fun part begins- the debt collectors will put a lien on your house and will eventually foreclose on it and force you into bankruptcy, leaving you penniless and homeless. But in the mean time the hospital will push your costs back onto all of the other patients, raising their costs too.

Now, the insurance companies make huge profits and can afford to payout multi-million dollar annual bonuses to their executives, but they're not going to stop doing that just because the hospital is raising its rates to cover your unpaid medical treatments. So now insurance rates must go up and businesses are forced to either raise their insurance costs to their employees and/or offer insurance plans that leave them under-insured with high deductibles and low max payouts, or in some cases, without insurance all together.

This then leads to more uninsured or under-insured people arriving in Emergency Rooms needing medical treatments they can't pay for, and the cycle continues, leaving us with the bloated, untenable health care system we see today.

So, we have a choice- we can either require everyone to pay into a system that eventually everyone will use, OR, we can honor the choice to opt out of paying into the system by refusing to offer emergency medical services to those who chose to opt out. This way when you get hit by a bus, if the EMT's don't find enough cash or available credit on your person they can just drag you to the side of the street where you can die with all of your freedoms and liberties fully intact.

The "free market" has not worked itself out on its own, the Govt stepping in to correct course is NOT a govt takeover. If you can find a way for us to continue to give people a service even if they don't pay for it, let me know and I'll support it. But the reality is, everyone takes from the system at some point, so everyone needs to put in.


I will debate you on MANY/MOST of your points, although that may be pointless. You seem to be convinced of yourself. However, I don't think this is the place, but so far this thread has lived on.

If our medical industry were not so completely screwed up, as described by LC in a previous post, your described injury would come no where close to 280k. However, some people accept a 280k bill and just shrug their shoulders and say, "who cares... I'm not paying for it." Which, is the real reason our system has spiraled out of control, and this "fix" will make it far, far worse.

Your BS potshots notwithstanding, I'll debate you on all of this.

The free market has not worked itself out because it's NOT A FREE MARKET. Hello! Are you in there? Government overruled the free market of health care LONG AGO, and is now attempting to fix their own ineptitude with more ineptitude.

Watch where your slinging arrows. Try to have a reasonable debate without the personal attacks. If you're capable.


The main issue here is not the details of our screwed up healthcare industry....

The fact is, WE HAVE ALREADY SETTLED THIS! Its over. Move on Mr. Fox, your team LOST.

Obama ran on healthcare reform in 2008 and won handily against McCain and that clown your party ran for VP.

Then, he pushed through a milquetoast version of healthcare reform that was a "perfect compromise" in the sense that all parties were unsatisfied by the result.

Your party had another shot at getting rid of this thing in 2012 when you ran a candidate that pledged to repeal the law. HE LOST. And it wasn't really close.

Its survived a supreme court challenge and numerous ill-fated repeal attempts by more members of the GOP that are national jokes (I'm looking at you Michelle Bachman).

And now here we are. You've shut down the government to stop it. Boehner could end all of this by simply bringing it to a vote in the house, where a coalition of moderate GOP members (a nearly extinct species) and Dems could reopen the government and end this latest in a series of stand-offs orchestrated by the most extreme elements of your party. But of course he won't. He's got primaries to think about!
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 3:22:04 PM 
Now that the service academies have apparently resolved their issues for Saturday's games, can we move this thread off the football board?

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 3:48:25 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
By "forcing healthcare on the population" you're accounting for these costs, providing private insurers with far more patients, and creating a slush fund with individual mandate funds to pay for medical care provided to the uninsured. The additional patients, along with the individual mandate funds will, with time, drive costs down for the rest of us and work to address the untenable cost of healthcare in this country.


This is pure fantasy. There will never be a "slush fund" realized from this Act. You are adding millions of people to the insured roles who are either a) young and relatively healthy, and also not financially capable of paying huge premiums, and (mostly) b) people who don't have any money at all and will amount to huge additional costs, especially when they discover they now have "free" healthcare. Of course, all this is NOT free, and it will fall onto the backs of the middle class, who's premiums will skyrocket and work opportunities will shrink.


The individual mandate is the slush fund. If you choose not to purchase insurance, you pay the mandate. That's the money that comprises the slush fund. So, I ask you this: with all of the additional money being paid into the system (individual mandate money, and people purchasing private plans) what will cause premiums to sky rocket? There is far more money in the system under the ACA than there is now. Why would that result in the premiums skyrocketing?

Edit: Also--nobody is getting free healthcare from the ACA. That's another huge misconception. People are either buying through a private insurer, or they're remaining uninsured and paying the mandate. The mandate money then helps covered the inevitable health costs incurred by the uninsured. There is nobody getting "free" healthcare who is now going to go out and get a bunch of surgeries they can only afford because of their new free healthcare. For all of the talk on the right about this being a government handout, the ACA was designed by the Heritage Foundation specifically to avoid that. It's based on conservative principals like increasing competition in the free market (the exchanges) and personal responsibility (the individual mandate).

Last Edited: 10/3/2013 3:57:19 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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