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Topic:  Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial

Topic:  Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
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stub
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  Message Not Read  Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/27/2020 1:17:17 PM 
I’d like to reprint a message I posted years ago about the Stan Musial - Frank Baumholtz confrontation. Sept. 28 marks 68 years since this happened:

On September 28, 1952, the last game of the year, Stan ‘The Man’ Musial, eventual Hall of Fame outfielder for the St Louis Cardinals and one of the greatest hitters ever in major league baseball, took the mound and pitched for the only time in his career, and he did so to only one batter, Ohio alumnus Frank Baumholtz, in a confrontation agreed upon before the game.

After beating Frank of the Chicago Cubs to win his sixth batting title, Musial faced his adversary from the mound. Frankie was a left-handed hitter, but that day he batted right handed, the only time he ever did, ‘to even the playing field’. On the first pitch from Musial, Baumholtz hit a ball so hard that it ricocheted off the shin of third baseman Solly Hemus ending up in the left field corner. Baumholtz reached base on what was ruled an error. A gracious Musial maintained that it was as clean a hit as he ever saw.

P.S. Frankie was a great basketball player at Ohio, the only Bobcat to be voted 1st team All American. But he ended up playing baseball and in his rookie season, he played against Jackie Robinson who won the first ever Rookie of the Year Award (now called the Jackie Robinson Award). Frank came in second.

Last Edited: 9/27/2020 2:25:32 PM by stub

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/27/2020 6:56:03 PM 
stub wrote:
I’d like to reprint a message I posted years ago about the Stan Musial - Frank Baumholtz confrontation. Sept. 28 marks 68 years since this happened:

On September 28, 1952, the last game of the year, Stan ‘The Man’ Musial, eventual Hall of Fame outfielder for the St Louis Cardinals and one of the greatest hitters ever in major league baseball, took the mound and pitched for the only time in his career, and he did so to only one batter, Ohio alumnus Frank Baumholtz, in a confrontation agreed upon before the game.

After beating Frank of the Chicago Cubs to win his sixth batting title, Musial faced his adversary from the mound. Frankie was a left-handed hitter, but that day he batted right handed, the only time he ever did, ‘to even the playing field’. On the first pitch from Musial, Baumholtz hit a ball so hard that it ricocheted off the shin of third baseman Solly Hemus ending up in the left field corner. Baumholtz reached base on what was ruled an error. A gracious Musial maintained that it was as clean a hit as he ever saw.

P.S. Frankie was a great basketball player at Ohio, the only Bobcat to be voted 1st team All American. But he ended up playing baseball and in his rookie season, he played against Jackie Robinson who won the first ever Rookie of the Year Award (now called the Jackie Robinson Award). Frank came in second.


Thanks so much for repeating this story. I remember reading it the first time, and it was as good and entertaining the second time! While I never saw Baumholtz play basketball (BA rumors to the contrary), I did know a number of people -- including my father -- who had seen him play for Ohio. According to those stories, if he had played in the days of the three point shot, he'd have set all kinds of national scoring records. According to one of my old-time sources, he'd often make baskets from half court. One must remember that in those days not all courts were today's regulation size, so half court was often not as far as it is today -- but it was more than today's three point line in most cases!


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Donuts
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/28/2020 9:47:06 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
stub wrote:
I’d like to reprint a message I posted years ago about the Stan Musial - Frank Baumholtz confrontation. Sept. 28 marks 68 years since this happened:

On September 28, 1952, the last game of the year, Stan ‘The Man’ Musial, eventual Hall of Fame outfielder for the St Louis Cardinals and one of the greatest hitters ever in major league baseball, took the mound and pitched for the only time in his career, and he did so to only one batter, Ohio alumnus Frank Baumholtz, in a confrontation agreed upon before the game.

After beating Frank of the Chicago Cubs to win his sixth batting title, Musial faced his adversary from the mound. Frankie was a left-handed hitter, but that day he batted right handed, the only time he ever did, ‘to even the playing field’. On the first pitch from Musial, Baumholtz hit a ball so hard that it ricocheted off the shin of third baseman Solly Hemus ending up in the left field corner. Baumholtz reached base on what was ruled an error. A gracious Musial maintained that it was as clean a hit as he ever saw.

P.S. Frankie was a great basketball player at Ohio, the only Bobcat to be voted 1st team All American. But he ended up playing baseball and in his rookie season, he played against Jackie Robinson who won the first ever Rookie of the Year Award (now called the Jackie Robinson Award). Frank came in second.


Thanks so much for repeating this story. I remember reading it the first time, and it was as good and entertaining the second time! While I never saw Baumholtz play basketball (BA rumors to the contrary), I did know a number of people -- including my father -- who had seen him play for Ohio. According to those stories, if he had played in the days of the three point shot, he'd have set all kinds of national scoring records. According to one of my old-time sources, he'd often make baskets from half court. One must remember that in those days not all courts were today's regulation size, so half court was often not as far as it is today -- but it was more than today's three point line in most cases!


Appreciate the story, but I find it funny how so many old players would have just killed it with a three-point shot. Granted, if they grew up with one they’d practice more, but there are always these stories of amazing shooters making shots from everywhere.

However, statistics and video from that era would show a much different story. Shooting numbers across basketball were pretty terrible, so I don’t think they were magically efficient from 30+ feet when most guys struggled to hit a consistent 15 footer.

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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/28/2020 10:34:26 AM 
When I made my college choice in 1979, my old man said, "Two names you need to look up - Frankie Baumholtz and Dow Finsterwald."



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Lande71
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/28/2020 5:05:27 PM 
Show the statistics you mention! Not sure of your age, but I have been around the game a long time and would probably argue shooters were just as good then as now. The game has transformed into success for athletic players who are less likely to be great shooters. That is not to say great shooters are not there today. They are. Just interested to see the stats you talk of.
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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/28/2020 7:36:47 PM 
Lande71 wrote:
Show the statistics you mention! Not sure of your age, but I have been around the game a long time and would probably argue shooters were just as good then as now. The game has transformed into success for athletic players who are less likely to be great shooters. That is not to say great shooters are not there today. They are. Just interested to see the stats you talk of.


A lot has changed over time. 40 years ago you'd never see a Nate Springs type player. It was extremely rare to see anyone with size practice outside shooting. And without the three point line people just didn't practice 25 foot shots. What was the point? But there were some great, great shooters in pretty much any era that would absolutely have lit it up with the 3-pt line. You hear all the time about the lost art of the mid-range jumper. If the guys that excelled at those played today they would be nailing threes.
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Donuts
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/28/2020 10:37:25 PM 
Lande71 wrote:
Show the statistics you mention! Not sure of your age, but I have been around the game a long time and would probably argue shooters were just as good then as now. The game has transformed into success for athletic players who are less likely to be great shooters. That is not to say great shooters are not there today. They are. Just interested to see the stats you talk of.


I don't know what game you are watching these days, but if you can't shoot in today's NBA, you are basically struggling to get any playing time. Teams have room for one non-shooter at most on the floor at a time. Your comment makes me think you haven't paid attention to basketball in the last decade.

Shooting comparisons to the 1940s are laughable. Even when the three point line was introduced in the 1970s and 1980s, announcers would flip out when a guy would bomb it from deep like it was the most amazing risk ever. So players were scared to shoot from deep too much when it counted as three, but when it was a two pointer, they just bombed away from half court on the regular?

Frank Baumholtz shot under 30% from the field on 19 shots per game in the BAA, and 77% from the free throw line. The entire league shot 28% from the field and 67% from the free throw line. There was one guy in the entire league shooting over 80% from the free throw line. These are the shooters as good then as now?

Last Edited: 9/28/2020 10:37:54 PM by Donuts

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/29/2020 10:43:42 AM 
Donuts wrote:
Lande71 wrote:
Show the statistics you mention! Not sure of your age, but I have been around the game a long time and would probably argue shooters were just as good then as now. The game has transformed into success for athletic players who are less likely to be great shooters. That is not to say great shooters are not there today. They are. Just interested to see the stats you talk of.


I don't know what game you are watching these days, but if you can't shoot in today's NBA, you are basically struggling to get any playing time. Teams have room for one non-shooter at most on the floor at a time. Your comment makes me think you haven't paid attention to basketball in the last decade.

Shooting comparisons to the 1940s are laughable. Even when the three point line was introduced in the 1970s and 1980s, announcers would flip out when a guy would bomb it from deep like it was the most amazing risk ever. So players were scared to shoot from deep too much when it counted as three, but when it was a two pointer, they just bombed away from half court on the regular?

Frank Baumholtz shot under 30% from the field on 19 shots per game in the BAA, and 77% from the free throw line. The entire league shot 28% from the field and 67% from the free throw line. There was one guy in the entire league shooting over 80% from the free throw line. These are the shooters as good then as now?



The stats you are quoting are for the Basketball Association of America, not the Buckeye Athletic Association. So, these are from his one year as a pro basketball player. His professional stats are probably not as impressive as his college stats. That's probably why he ended up choosing baseball for his professional career.

Last Edited: 9/29/2020 10:45:15 AM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Donuts
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/29/2020 10:52:17 AM 
So he forgot, along with every other player in basketball, how to shoot going from college to the pros? Sorry I don't have the player efficiency ratings from the 1941 NCAA season handy.

None of these guys in the 1940s come close to even average shooters today. It's not even the same sport in that aspect. Baumholtz pulling up from half court with any type of consistency is a fabricated old-time story.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/29/2020 11:55:16 PM 
Donuts wrote:
So he forgot, along with every other player in basketball, how to shoot going from college to the pros? Sorry I don't have the player efficiency ratings from the 1941 NCAA season handy.

None of these guys in the 1940s come close to even average shooters today. It's not even the same sport in that aspect. Baumholtz pulling up from half court with any type of consistency is a fabricated old-time story.


Might have been against better defenses in the pros -- more contested shots. There are lots of examples of guys whose games look great in college and then they stumble and look very mediocre in the pros. Next, you are going to tell me that the Waterloo Wonders really weren't that good, and that Rio Grande really didn't have good teams in the Bevo Francis era. Anything that happened before you were born was really pretty pathetic and could not hold a candle to anything in this modern era. i kind of get the drift of your remarks. Heck, you might be right, but don't expect everyone to agree with you, or believe that you have muster conclusive evidence to prove your point.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Donuts
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/30/2020 2:56:59 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Donuts wrote:
So he forgot, along with every other player in basketball, how to shoot going from college to the pros? Sorry I don't have the player efficiency ratings from the 1941 NCAA season handy.

None of these guys in the 1940s come close to even average shooters today. It's not even the same sport in that aspect. Baumholtz pulling up from half court with any type of consistency is a fabricated old-time story.


Might have been against better defenses in the pros -- more contested shots. There are lots of examples of guys whose games look great in college and then they stumble and look very mediocre in the pros. Next, you are going to tell me that the Waterloo Wonders really weren't that good, and that Rio Grande really didn't have good teams in the Bevo Francis era. Anything that happened before you were born was really pretty pathetic and could not hold a candle to anything in this modern era. i kind of get the drift of your remarks. Heck, you might be right, but don't expect everyone to agree with you, or believe that you have muster conclusive evidence to prove your point.


Every sane person agrees with me.

Are you really going to try to make a case that a guy 2.5 years older than Mr. jump shot himself Ken Sailors was hoisting flat footed set shots and awkward one-handed runners from half court and making them? And this is the man who could shoot as well as current ones?

Baumholtz averaged 12.9 points per game for his career. So if he took every single shot from deep (he didn't), he made probably 4 to 6 shots from the field per game. Given the fact that shooters in that era were pretty terrible, and, you know, there was no incentive to actually shoot from deep, it's hard to imagine lil Frankie made any more than 1 or 2 shots from deep. So congrats, Baumholtz is now a 15 points per game scorer. Time for all the records to shatter!

I hate it when facts get in the way of fabricated old time stories. Guess what else? Cool Papa Bell couldn't turn the light switch off and get in bed before it was dark.

You seem to be missing the point here that there is a difference between respecting what a team did in their era, and then trying to compare eras. Shooting is so much more refined now, and it is frankly an insult to even claim these guys with bad form and glued to the ground know what they are doing.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/30/2020 10:46:41 AM 
Let me make one thing clear that seems to have gotten misinterpret in this deteriorating thread. When I said that if they'd had the three-point shot back then that Frankie might have set national scoring records, I was not saying these were records that would have held up today and that would not have been eclipsed. That would be an absurd claim. What I was saying was that at that time he might have been the national scoring leader. I really wasn't implying anything about his shooting percentage, so I'm not sure how that got started, and why his professional record was used to try to say something about his collegiate career. I said that I was told he "often" hit shoots from half court. Given the relative rarity of such shots normally this might have been an average of one a game, or every other game. That certainly would be "often" compared to what was normally seen then, or even now. Not sure why there is an agenda to tear down the reputation of one of Ohio's all time greats!

Edit: BTW, I have a vague memory that I was told he hit one of these long range bombs in the game against LIU in Madison Square Garden in the NIT.

Last Edited: 9/30/2020 10:49:47 AM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Kevin Finnegan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/30/2020 11:59:34 AM 
I love the Baumholtz story. I'd love video of that, as it sounds quite interesting. One minor correction, though. Frank wasn't second in the Rookie of the Year voting to Jackie Robinson. He actually finished fifth that year, well behind the top vote-getters. The league award was a little different then, as it was a Major League award, not specified between the American and National Leagues. If that were the case, Frank would've finished third in the NL, behind Jackie and Larry Jansen, who went 21-5 as a pitcher with a 3.17 ERA. Two years later, in 1949, the award began to be given in both leagues.

Interesting note to baseball fans...three times the winner of the AL and the NL Rookies of the Year have ended up both going into the Hall of Fame.

1955--Luis Aparicio and Frank Robinson

1967--Rod Carew and Tom Seaver

1977--Eddie Murray and Andre Dawson

There will be at least one more addition to this list, 2001. That year, Ichiro won it in the AL (along with the MVP) and Albert Pujols won it in the NL. 2012 has potential, but only Mike Trout is a lock for the HOF, whereas Bryce Harper would need to do a lot of work to prove worthy.
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stub
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/30/2020 2:02:36 PM 
Kevin Finnegan wrote:
I love the Baumholtz story. I'd love video of that, as it sounds quite interesting. One minor correction, though. Frank wasn't second in the Rookie of the Year voting to Jackie Robinson. He actually finished fifth that year, well behind the top vote-getters. The league award was a little different then, as it was a Major League award, not specified between the American and National Leagues. If that were the case, Frank would've finished third in the NL, behind Jackie and Larry Jansen, who went 21-5 as a pitcher with a 3.17 ERA. Two years later, in 1949, the award began to be given in both leagues.


You are correct Kevin. I was only including batters (not pitchers) when I listed Frankie as coming in second to Jackie. Incidentally, Frankie had more hits than Jackie that season.

Last Edited: 9/30/2020 3:57:37 PM by stub

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/30/2020 2:19:07 PM 
Donuts wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Donuts wrote:
So he forgot, along with every other player in basketball, how to shoot going from college to the pros? Sorry I don't have the player efficiency ratings from the 1941 NCAA season handy.

None of these guys in the 1940s come close to even average shooters today. It's not even the same sport in that aspect. Baumholtz pulling up from half court with any type of consistency is a fabricated old-time story.


Might have been against better defenses in the pros -- more contested shots. There are lots of examples of guys whose games look great in college and then they stumble and look very mediocre in the pros. Next, you are going to tell me that the Waterloo Wonders really weren't that good, and that Rio Grande really didn't have good teams in the Bevo Francis era. Anything that happened before you were born was really pretty pathetic and could not hold a candle to anything in this modern era. i kind of get the drift of your remarks. Heck, you might be right, but don't expect everyone to agree with you, or believe that you have muster conclusive evidence to prove your point.


Every sane person agrees with me.

Are you really going to try to make a case that a guy 2.5 years older than Mr. jump shot himself Ken Sailors was hoisting flat footed set shots and awkward one-handed runners from half court and making them? And this is the man who could shoot as well as current ones?

Baumholtz averaged 12.9 points per game for his career. So if he took every single shot from deep (he didn't), he made probably 4 to 6 shots from the field per game. Given the fact that shooters in that era were pretty terrible, and, you know, there was no incentive to actually shoot from deep, it's hard to imagine lil Frankie made any more than 1 or 2 shots from deep. So congrats, Baumholtz is now a 15 points per game scorer. Time for all the records to shatter!

I hate it when facts get in the way of fabricated old time stories. Guess what else? Cool Papa Bell couldn't turn the light switch off and get in bed before it was dark.

You seem to be missing the point here that there is a difference between respecting what a team did in their era, and then trying to compare eras. Shooting is so much more refined now, and it is frankly an insult to even claim these guys with bad form and glued to the ground know what they are doing.


Why would you even think of arguing with Mr. History (revisionist history)
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Donuts
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/30/2020 3:19:00 PM 
Not tearing him down. Just standing up for today's shooting and how it was dismissed. Then you came in here talking about Waterloo Wonders again and projecting for no reason.

Guys were averaging much more than Baumholtz around NCAA basketball during his era, and then of course guys like Mikan were a few years after. So no, he would not have competed for scoring records with a three-point line.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 9/30/2020 3:54:08 PM 
Donuts wrote:
Not tearing him down. Just standing up for today's shooting and how it was dismissed. Then you came in here talking about Waterloo Wonders again and projecting for no reason.

Guys were averaging much more than Baumholtz around NCAA basketball during his era, and then of course guys like Mikan were a few years after. So no, he would not have competed for scoring records with a three-point line.


Well, if he was good from the shorter half courts of the day, and if there had been the current three-point line, he probably would have shot more outside shots. His teammates would have fed him the ball more for the higher counting shots from beyond the line. I don't know how you can conclude definitively that that wouldn't have put him in contention for a national scoring title. I think, maybe, you just like to argue. This is, of course, a good place to argue over almost anything. So, you're in good company in that regard. ;-)

Last Edited: 9/30/2020 7:53:50 PM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 10/1/2020 9:51:50 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Donuts wrote:
Not tearing him down. Just standing up for today's shooting and how it was dismissed. Then you came in here talking about Waterloo Wonders again and projecting for no reason.

Guys were averaging much more than Baumholtz around NCAA basketball during his era, and then of course guys like Mikan were a few years after. So no, he would not have competed for scoring records with a three-point line.


Well, if he was good from the shorter half courts of the day, and if there had been the current three-point line, he probably would have shot more outside shots. His teammates would have fed him the ball more for the higher counting shots from beyond the line. I don't know how you can conclude definitively that that wouldn't have put him in contention for a national scoring title. I think, maybe, you just like to argue. This is, of course, a good place to argue over almost anything. So, you're in good company in that regard. ;-)


Can we get a plaque or trophy 🏆 for Frank as the National Scoring Champion? We could put it next to the Heisman signs when you drive into town.
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Donuts
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 10/2/2020 6:41:29 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Donuts wrote:
Not tearing him down. Just standing up for today's shooting and how it was dismissed. Then you came in here talking about Waterloo Wonders again and projecting for no reason.

Guys were averaging much more than Baumholtz around NCAA basketball during his era, and then of course guys like Mikan were a few years after. So no, he would not have competed for scoring records with a three-point line.


Well, if he was good from the shorter half courts of the day, and if there had been the current three-point line, he probably would have shot more outside shots. His teammates would have fed him the ball more for the higher counting shots from beyond the line. I don't know how you can conclude definitively that that wouldn't have put him in contention for a national scoring title. I think, maybe, you just like to argue. This is, of course, a good place to argue over almost anything. So, you're in good company in that regard. ;-)


Imagine actually thinking that a guy in the 1940s "was good" from half court. Yeah, Larry Bird would only make about one three a game 40 years later as arguably the best shooter on the planet, but ole Frankie Baumholtz would have changed the game forever with flat footed swishes from 30 feet.

I blame Trautwein really. Should have allowed Baumholtz to just shoot his money shot from half court every time down the court.

I wonder if you've ever stopped to think about how ridiculous it is to believe these old stories. Of course, I'm guessing you probably stretch the truth to young people now about how unbelievable some athletes were. If it wasn't for the invention of time you'd probably think Jesse Owens is still the fastest human ever.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 10/3/2020 12:47:41 AM 
Donuts wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Donuts wrote:
Not tearing him down. Just standing up for today's shooting and how it was dismissed. Then you came in here talking about Waterloo Wonders again and projecting for no reason.

Guys were averaging much more than Baumholtz around NCAA basketball during his era, and then of course guys like Mikan were a few years after. So no, he would not have competed for scoring records with a three-point line.


Well, if he was good from the shorter half courts of the day, and if there had been the current three-point line, he probably would have shot more outside shots. His teammates would have fed him the ball more for the higher counting shots from beyond the line. I don't know how you can conclude definitively that that wouldn't have put him in contention for a national scoring title. I think, maybe, you just like to argue. This is, of course, a good place to argue over almost anything. So, you're in good company in that regard. ;-)


Imagine actually thinking that a guy in the 1940s "was good" from half court. Yeah, Larry Bird would only make about one three a game 40 years later as arguably the best shooter on the planet, but ole Frankie Baumholtz would have changed the game forever with flat footed swishes from 30 feet.

I blame Trautwein really. Should have allowed Baumholtz to just shoot his money shot from half court every time down the court.

I wonder if you've ever stopped to think about how ridiculous it is to believe these old stories. Of course, I'm guessing you probably stretch the truth to young people now about how unbelievable some athletes were. If it wasn't for the invention of time you'd probably think Jesse Owens is still the fastest human ever.


If they had the 3pt line we’d have never heard of Dave Jameson or Pistol Pete!
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 10/3/2020 10:03:38 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
I did know a number of people -- including my father -- who had seen him play for Ohio. According to those stories, if he had played in the days of the three point shot, he'd have set all kinds of national scoring records.


I'm not following. Everyone would have the three-point line, right? So other people would be scoring more as well. Wouldn't things largely reflect the actual "standings"?


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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 10/4/2020 10:59:31 AM 
I appreciate the sarcasm in this thread. As a sarcastic guy myself I like it no matter where its directed.

Nonetheless, since there seems to some misunderstanding of what I was trying to communicate, let me restated it as clearly as I can:
*local OHIO fans who watched Baumholtz play noted that he often made shots much further away from the basket than virtually any of his contemporaries;
*some of these shots were reportedly just over the half court line (Men's Gym was not regulation size);
*These shots only counted two points;
*Therefore, I theorized that had there been a three-point line in his day, he might have contended for the national scoring title as he would probably have shot more total shots and more long-range shots and those he canned from "beyond the arc" would have counted for three not two.

I also took into account that he was quite an all-around talented athlete given his long MLB career and his lifetime .290 batting average.

So, you are free to disagree. You are free to post sarcastic responses, which will probably make me smile and even laugh. However, I will continue to believe that my hypothesis *might* be tenable.




Last Edited: 10/4/2020 12:27:04 PM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 10/4/2020 11:24:11 AM 
OCF, I’ll give you that he was a great all around athlete.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 10/4/2020 5:46:56 PM 
Doesn't it hold that there would be other excellent shooters, though? And wouldn't defenses necessarily be different? And I don't see how being a good baseball player is a factor.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Frank Baumholtz vs. Stan ‘The Man’ Musial
   Posted: 10/4/2020 8:07:36 PM 
JSF wrote:
Doesn't it hold that there would be other excellent shooters, though? And wouldn't defenses necessarily be different? And I don't see how being a good baseball player is a factor.


Yes, Yes, and to some extent (just shows he's a good athlete, and could probably adjust to new rules). Reportedly he was one of only a few who shot from that far from the basket fairly regularly. Just saying he would have had a chance to hone those skills even more if it had been rewarded with more. No one will ever know if my hypothesis here is correct. So, it's not testable. Therefore, it's not scientific. It's just my personal hunch.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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