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Topic:  TK-O-Meter

Topic:  TK-O-Meter
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Andrew Ruck
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Member Since: 12/22/2004
Location: Columbus, OH
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  Message Not Read  TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 11:44:43 AM 
This stuff is so startling it needs a separate thread to track the ridiculousness of how our point guard manages the ball.

Wilberforce - 2 A, 4 TO
Campbell - 5 A, 2 TO
S Florida - 0 A, 8 TO
Loyola M - 3 A, 6 TO
Austin P - 4 A, 4 TO
Iona - 5 A, 3 TO
Marshall - 5 A, 7 TO
Xavier - 4 A, 6 TO
Radford - 3 A, 7 TO
Detroit - 3 A, 8 TO
Purdue - 0 A, 3 TO
FIU - 2 A, 6 TO
NIU - 0 A, 7 TO

TOTAL - 36 A, 71 TO, 0.51 A/TO
Games w/ more assists than TO - 2

I did find 1 player in the nation with more turnovers, Josh Sharkey of Samford with 80. However, he has 112 assists to go with it, top 10 in the country.

While ranking #2 in the country in turnovers, TK is ranked somewhere around 700th in assists. I could not find any lists that go beyond 500. On that list of 500, The lowest A/TO was around .71...but it was a forward as were most others below 0.85.

If you strip out those first 2 games, the current 11 game block is 29 assists and 65 turnovers...a startling 0.44 A/TO. The last 5 games is 8/31 for a 0.26 A/TO. And the last 3 are 2/16 for a 0.12 A/TO.

I wish I could research starting D1 Point Guards in the history of the NCAA and see if there has ever been anyone worse. It doesn't seem possible. I am not a basketball mastermind, but I do believe the primary job of the point guard is to distribute the ball and facilitate scoring for the TEAM.

See you Tuesday for the next installment of "holy crap our PG can't pass."


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 11:57:32 AM 
I've been saying for awhile that TK is not a point guard. Now your statistics prove my "eye test" was right. IMHO, Preston has much more potential as a PG.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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OhioStunter
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Location: Chicago
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 12:11:08 PM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
This stuff is so startling it needs a separate thread to track the ridiculousness of how our point guard manages the ball.

Wilberforce - 2 A, 4 TO
Campbell - 5 A, 2 TO
S Florida - 0 A, 8 TO
Loyola M - 3 A, 6 TO
Austin P - 4 A, 4 TO
Iona - 5 A, 3 TO
Marshall - 5 A, 7 TO
Xavier - 4 A, 6 TO
Radford - 3 A, 7 TO
Detroit - 3 A, 8 TO
Purdue - 0 A, 3 TO
FIU - 2 A, 6 TO
NIU - 0 A, 7 TO

TOTAL - 36 A, 71 TO, 0.51 A/TO
Games w/ more assists than TO - 2

I did find 1 player in the nation with more turnovers, Josh Sharkey of Samford with 80. However, he has 112 assists to go with it, top 10 in the country.

While ranking #2 in the country in turnovers, TK is ranked somewhere around 700th in assists. I could not find any lists that go beyond 500. On that list of 500, The lowest A/TO was around .71...but it was a forward as were most others below 0.85.

If you strip out those first 2 games, the current 11 game block is 29 assists and 65 turnovers...a startling 0.44 A/TO. The last 5 games is 8/31 for a 0.26 A/TO. And the last 3 are 2/16 for a 0.12 A/TO.

I wish I could research starting D1 Point Guards in the history of the NCAA and see if there has ever been anyone worse. It doesn't seem possible. I am not a basketball mastermind, but I do believe the primary job of the point guard is to distribute the ball and facilitate scoring for the TEAM.

See you Tuesday for the next installment of "holy crap our PG can't pass."


These are Ping-like numbers.
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allen
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 12:12:13 PM 
This is sheer desperation, TK is a sophomore and we are trying to blame him when Block and others have been inconsistent as well. We even have some bobcatattackers with some Mississippi in them, claiming that TK has dumb handlers. We need to probably tone it down. We still have a whole MAC season to play and Saul may need TK to save his job. Ultimately the starting lineup and rotations are up to the coach, letís hope that Saul and the cats go on a run. Go Cats


Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 12:24:45 PM 
allen, I'm not saying that TK is a bad player, just that he appears to me to playing out of position. He's very good at slashing to the rim and getting a layup or scoring with that little floater of his, but he seems miscast as a PG. Those TO to assist stats kind of prove that point. I, too, am hoping that Saul is successful and that the season turns around in a positive direction. In my mind, a key to that might be shifting around some of the responsibilities of some of the players. Also, it might be a good idea to keep TK off the floor when the other team is looking for someone to foul! :-)


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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71 BOBCAT
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 12:33:12 PM 
This subject is dear to my heart and goes right to the recruiting issue with Saul.
Saul did not recruit another point guard till Preston.
In college the point guard position is most important and Saul should have made sure that we always had 2 on the roster, and he didn't. mistake, big mistake, error in judgement. PERIOD.
Another nail in the coffin!




GO BOBCATS
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Andrew Ruck
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Location: Columbus, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 12:48:56 PM 
allen wrote:
This is sheer desperation, TK is a sophomore and we are trying to blame him when Block and others have been inconsistent as well.


I never pinned everything on him nor did I completely dismiss him as a player. My post was on his ability to make productive passes that lead to scores while minimizing passes that lead to turnovers. In the last 2 months he is as bad as I have ever seen.


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 12:53:57 PM 
allen wrote:
This is sheer desperation, TK is a sophomore and we are trying to blame him when Block and others have been inconsistent as well. We even have some bobcatattackers with some Mississippi in them, claiming that TK has dumb handlers. We need to probably tone it down. We still have a whole MAC season to play and Saul may need TK to save his job. Ultimately the starting lineup and rotations are up to the coach, letís hope that Saul and the cats go on a run. Go Cats


Family of TK?? Geesh...

There is zero question, from an objective standpoint, that TK's stats do not lend themselves to being a point guard. Not saying he doesn't have a place in D1 basketball, but a PG he is not. Sure, many other players are underperforming too - but it's hard to argue against the stats presented above.

Saul probably does need TK to save his job. It would be great to see a miraculous turnaround - but I'm not betting on it.
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allen
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 1:01:48 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
allen, I'm not saying that TK is a bad player, just that he appears to me to playing out of position. He's very good at slashing to the rim and getting a layup or scoring with that little floater of his, but he seems miscast as a PG. Those TO to assist stats kind of prove that point. I, too, am hoping that Saul is successful and that the season turns around in a positive direction. In my mind, a key to that might be shifting around some of the responsibilities of some of the players. Also, it might be a good idea to keep TK off the floor when the other team is looking for someone to foul! :-)


I agree that he is not a point guard and that he needs work. I am just shocked that we are blaming him and posting his game by game stats and some are showing their true colors. TK needs a stronger handle and better court vision. I like the fact that he is aggressive, but he sometimes tries to do too much. The coach has determine his role, he is only a sophomore. I know a lot of us want to keep Saul so some are pointing fingers, you are just making honest observations that I agree with for the most part.


Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

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allen
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 1:04:49 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
allen wrote:
This is sheer desperation, TK is a sophomore and we are trying to blame him when Block and others have been inconsistent as well. We even have some bobcatattackers with some Mississippi in them, claiming that TK has dumb handlers. We need to probably tone it down. We still have a whole MAC season to play and Saul may need TK to save his job. Ultimately the starting lineup and rotations are up to the coach, letís hope that Saul and the cats go on a run. Go Cats


Family of TK?? Geesh...

There is zero question, from an objective standpoint, that TK's stats do not lend themselves to being a point guard. Not saying he doesn't have a place in D1 basketball, but a PG he is not. Sure, many other players are underperforming too - but it's hard to argue against the stats presented above.

Saul probably does need TK to save his job. It would be great to see a miraculous turnaround - but I'm not betting on it.


No, he is not family, I donít know him, I am not one of his alleged handlers (dumb handlers). I just feel sorry for him.


Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

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Bobcat1998
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 2:21:30 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
I've been saying for awhile that TK is not a point guard. Now your statistics prove my "eye test" was right. IMHO, Preston has much more potential as a PG.


Have you watched Preston handle the ball? He gets caught in the air too much and when he gets the ball at the top of the key he picks his dribble up or he dribbles away from the 3-point line to set up the offense. None of OUr guys dribble with their heads up. That's what drives me crazy about a guy like Torey James sitting on the bench. Early on when he played he didn't do horribly. Murrell hasn't done horribly. Yet you stick with TK for 39 minutes and can't find 5 minutes for James and Murrell. And on the other side, why isn't McMurray playing more? Block gives us 1 assist, zero points and zero rebounds on occasion....not acceptable. Time to get the youth movement going. To me, the only guys who have played consistently and contributed SOMETHING every night are Carter, BVP, DT and Preston.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 3:18:15 PM 
allen wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
allen, I'm not saying that TK is a bad player, just that he appears to me to playing out of position. He's very good at slashing to the rim and getting a layup or scoring with that little floater of his, but he seems miscast as a PG. Those TO to assist stats kind of prove that point. I, too, am hoping that Saul is successful and that the season turns around in a positive direction. In my mind, a key to that might be shifting around some of the responsibilities of some of the players. Also, it might be a good idea to keep TK off the floor when the other team is looking for someone to foul! :-)


I agree that he is not a point guard and that he needs work. I am just shocked that we are blaming him and posting his game by game stats and some are showing their true colors. TK needs a stronger handle and better court vision. I like the fact that he is aggressive, but he sometimes tries to do too much. The coach has determine his role, he is only a sophomore. I know a lot of us want to keep Saul so some are pointing fingers, you are just making honest observations that I agree with for the most part.


Thanks for the gentlemanly response. Nice to see we are pretty much on the same page here. With rare exception (e.g., Brian Knorr, Billy Hahn) I support our coaches and don't call for anyone's head. This year looks like it will try my patience. But, I'm still hoping for a turnaround in the rest of the season.

Last Edited: 1/7/2019 3:18:52 PM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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UpSan Bobcat
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Location: Upper Sandusky, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 5:08:59 PM 
I feel like Preston playing so much is to alleviate the shortcomings of Kirk because Preston is a much better distributor. Kirk can bring the ball up the floor if he's better against pressure but maybe a solution would be to let the offense start in the half court with Preston. Clearly, something's got to be done to reduce the number of turnovers.
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 5:21:32 PM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
This stuff is so startling it needs a separate thread to track the ridiculousness of how our point guard manages the ball.

Wilberforce - 2 A, 4 TO
Campbell - 5 A, 2 TO
S Florida - 0 A, 8 TO
Loyola M - 3 A, 6 TO
Austin P - 4 A, 4 TO
Iona - 5 A, 3 TO
Marshall - 5 A, 7 TO
Xavier - 4 A, 6 TO
Radford - 3 A, 7 TO
Detroit - 3 A, 8 TO
Purdue - 0 A, 3 TO
FIU - 2 A, 6 TO
NIU - 0 A, 7 TO

TOTAL - 36 A, 71 TO, 0.51 A/TO
Games w/ more assists than TO - 2

I did find 1 player in the nation with more turnovers, Josh Sharkey of Samford with 80. However, he has 112 assists to go with it, top 10 in the country.

While ranking #2 in the country in turnovers, TK is ranked somewhere around 700th in assists. I could not find any lists that go beyond 500. On that list of 500, The lowest A/TO was around .71...but it was a forward as were most others below 0.85.

If you strip out those first 2 games, the current 11 game block is 29 assists and 65 turnovers...a startling 0.44 A/TO. The last 5 games is 8/31 for a 0.26 A/TO. And the last 3 are 2/16 for a 0.12 A/TO.

I wish I could research starting D1 Point Guards in the history of the NCAA and see if there has ever been anyone worse. It doesn't seem possible. I am not a basketball mastermind, but I do believe the primary job of the point guard is to distribute the ball and facilitate scoring for the TEAM.

See you Tuesday for the next installment of "holy crap our PG can't pass."



All time highest turnovers list. There are plenty of names you'll recognize in the list:
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/leaders/tov-player-s...

By my math, he's definitely on pace to challenge for the top of the list all time in TO's, assuming the other 'leaders' this season don't beat him to it.


Henceforth, you will be known as The Bobcat "Message Board Avenger"

Twitter: @ou_country

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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 6:17:39 PM 
OhioStunter wrote:


These are Ping-like numbers.


Even approaching 90, Dr. Ping would likely have fewer turnovers. ;-)
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MonroeClassmate
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 6:47:11 PM 
OU_Country wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:
This stuff is so startling it needs a separate thread to track the ridiculousness of how our point guard manages the ball.

Wilberforce - 2 A, 4 TO
Campbell - 5 A, 2 TO
S Florida - 0 A, 8 TO
Loyola M - 3 A, 6 TO
Austin P - 4 A, 4 TO
Iona - 5 A, 3 TO
Marshall - 5 A, 7 TO
Xavier - 4 A, 6 TO
Radford - 3 A, 7 TO
Detroit - 3 A, 8 TO
Purdue - 0 A, 3 TO
FIU - 2 A, 6 TO
NIU - 0 A, 7 TO

TOTAL - 36 A, 71 TO, 0.51 A/TO
Games w/ more assists than TO - 2

I did find 1 player in the nation with more turnovers, Josh Sharkey of Samford with 80. However, he has 112 assists to go with it, top 10 in the country.

While ranking #2 in the country in turnovers, TK is ranked somewhere around 700th in assists. I could not find any lists that go beyond 500. On that list of 500, The lowest A/TO was around .71...but it was a forward as were most others below 0.85.

If you strip out those first 2 games, the current 11 game block is 29 assists and 65 turnovers...a startling 0.44 A/TO. The last 5 games is 8/31 for a 0.26 A/TO. And the last 3 are 2/16 for a 0.12 A/TO.

I wish I could research starting D1 Point Guards in the history of the NCAA and see if there has ever been anyone worse. It doesn't seem possible. I am not a basketball mastermind, but I do believe the primary job of the point guard is to distribute the ball and facilitate scoring for the TEAM.

See you Tuesday for the next installment of "holy crap our PG can't pass."



All time highest turnovers list. There are plenty of names you'll recognize in the list:
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/leaders/tov-player-s...

By my math, he's definitely on pace to challenge for the top of the list all time in TO's, assuming the other 'leaders' this season don't beat him to it.


DJ and Steph on the list; oh and the skip-town guy too!

Have someone do some further analysis for the kids sake. In regards to the TO to Assists: is the TO taking away from scoring or are there a large number of passes that should have been converted by poor shooting and thus making the ratio look much worse than it otherwise should be?

Number of TO's is a concern because it would be better to chuck up a poor shot then to give it away. But just how is he turning the ball over? It would be either of three things: simply not protecting the ball, forcing passes after getting into trouble or trying to make a pass that isn't there. Do the bigs seal their guys and make good targets or are they lazy and wait for the ball while the defender gets a hand on it?

If he is not taking care of the ball and getting stripped or cannot handle some pressure it is troubling. However, if from trying to do too much than perhaps when the game "slows down" for him he will be proficient. How much better would he be if like DJ he had a hot shooting Kellogg (Dardis) in the corner to ring up the threes after driving the lane? I know watching him last year at Akron he posed a big problem on the defenders and playing above the rim like he did is just a killer for the opponent when your point is getting stick backs and tip-ins.

Go TK; go BOBCATS

Last Edited: 1/7/2019 6:55:15 PM by MonroeClassmate

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BobcatSports
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 6:51:30 PM 
Letís see heís not a point guard and heís certainly not a shooting guard. I can only see based on his size one position for him: small forward. Heís athletic, can rebound, has great jumping abilities and the overwhelming amount of points he scores is creating around the rim.
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Maddog13
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 8:38:15 PM 
I completely believe with all of my heart that each one of these young men is playing the best that they can absolutely play, and there lies the problem: Ohio simply does not have the talent needed to compete in the MAC, let alone on a higher level in Division I basketball. Saul has been recruiting Division II and Division III kids, who need to stay where they can effectively compete. Nothing wrong with that, but it seems that we should simply call it for what it is instead of hoping we can turn water into wine. What infuriates me is that these kids appear to have been given false hope about their individual abilities, and they are learning firsthand that they are just not good enough. The only person who seems consistently baffled by this fact is Coach Phillips. Yes, Coach, you too are coaching on a level higher than you are capable of coaching.

I truly believe that you could take some of Coach Solich's best athletes in Football and that they would totally school these players on the basketball court and without even having to practice for it.
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GroverBall
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 9:02:04 PM 
Maddog13 wrote:


I truly believe that you could take some of Coach Solich's best athletes in Football and that they would totally school these players on the basketball court and without even having to practice for it.


You are really showing your basketball ignorance with this comment.
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Maddog13
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 9:59:16 PM 
Are you sure about that Groverball? I have seen better athletes on the gridiron this year than the floor of the Convo. In fact, I would double down and say that I have seen more polished pick up games in the past at Grover Center than I have seen all year at the Convo, so put that in your Bobcat pipe and smoke it, Sir!!

Last Edited: 1/7/2019 10:13:37 PM by Maddog13

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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 10:03:03 PM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
This stuff is so startling it needs a separate thread to track the ridiculousness of how our point guard manages the ball.

Wilberforce - 2 A, 4 TO
Campbell - 5 A, 2 TO
S Florida - 0 A, 8 TO
Loyola M - 3 A, 6 TO
Austin P - 4 A, 4 TO
Iona - 5 A, 3 TO
Marshall - 5 A, 7 TO
Xavier - 4 A, 6 TO
Radford - 3 A, 7 TO
Detroit - 3 A, 8 TO
Purdue - 0 A, 3 TO
FIU - 2 A, 6 TO
NIU - 0 A, 7 TO

TOTAL - 36 A, 71 TO, 0.51 A/TO
Games w/ more assists than TO - 2

I did find 1 player in the nation with more turnovers, Josh Sharkey of Samford with 80. However, he has 112 assists to go with it, top 10 in the country.

While ranking #2 in the country in turnovers, TK is ranked somewhere around 700th in assists. I could not find any lists that go beyond 500. On that list of 500, The lowest A/TO was around .71...but it was a forward as were most others below 0.85.

If you strip out those first 2 games, the current 11 game block is 29 assists and 65 turnovers...a startling 0.44 A/TO. The last 5 games is 8/31 for a 0.26 A/TO. And the last 3 are 2/16 for a 0.12 A/TO.

I wish I could research starting D1 Point Guards in the history of the NCAA and see if there has ever been anyone worse. It doesn't seem possible. I am not a basketball mastermind, but I do believe the primary job of the point guard is to distribute the ball and facilitate scoring for the TEAM.

See you Tuesday for the next installment of "holy crap our PG can't pass."


Wow...hate to pile on here...but seriously....this could be the worst A/TO ratio by a point guard in the history of Division One College Basketball. It's mind boggling how bad it is.


#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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GroverBall
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 10:16:56 PM 
Maddog13 wrote:
Are you sure about that Groverball? I have seen better athletes on the gridiron this year than the floor of the Convo.


Positive. Athletes are one thing, but your comment "they would totally school these players on the basketball court and without even having to practice for it" is just plain ignorant. Too many on here have their panties all twisted after Saturday and are losing any semblance of rationality.
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Maddog13
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 10:23:20 PM 
GroverBall wrote:
Maddog13 wrote:
Are you sure about that Groverball? I have seen better athletes on the gridiron this year than the floor of the Convo.


Positive. Athletes are one thing, but your comment "they would totally school these players on the basketball court and without even having to practice for it" is just plain ignorant. Too many on here have their panties all twisted after Saturday and are losing any semblance of rationality.


Twisted panties or not, what proof do you have that this is an "ignorant" statement? As of now, this team is not performing well at all. Your stance of superiority does not turn wishes into reality, Sir.

Last Edited: 1/7/2019 10:25:20 PM by Maddog13

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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 10:31:27 PM 
GroverBall wrote:
Maddog13 wrote:
Are you sure about that Groverball? I have seen better athletes on the gridiron this year than the floor of the Convo.

Too many on here have their panties all twisted after Saturday and are losing any semblance of rationality.


Ummm....this goes well beyond Saturday. Try five years of nothing.


#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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GroverBall
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  Message Not Read  RE: TK-O-Meter
   Posted: 1/7/2019 10:38:40 PM 
Maddog13 wrote:
GroverBall wrote:
Maddog13 wrote:
Are you sure about that Groverball? I have seen better athletes on the gridiron this year than the floor of the Convo.


Positive. Athletes are one thing, but your comment "they would totally school these players on the basketball court and without even having to practice for it" is just plain ignorant. Too many on here have their panties all twisted after Saturday and are losing any semblance of rationality.


Twisted panties or not, what proof do you have that this is an "ignorant" statement? As of now, this team is not performing well at all. Your stance of superiority does not turn wishes into reality, Sir.


C'mon Maddog, we're all disappointed, I get it. But to say that this 8-5 Bobcat team would get blown out by throwing a bunch of football players on the court is just stupid and disrespectful for all the work these young men put in to be basketball players. It's not superiority that's talking, it's an understanding of what it takes to play the game of basketball. I've played basketball with some pretty good Bobcat football players over the years and I'm confident that reality is in my corner.
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