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Topic: RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Topic: RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

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bshot44
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 9:51:21 AM

OUVan wrote:

Our schedule has never been a factor in us not getting into the tournament. Ever.

We are what we are. The MAC fell behind in the early part of this century because we didn't spend the money on basketball. When we finally decided to try to catch back up a series of really bad hires dug the conference an even deeper hole. We need one program to really step it up an elevate the rest of the conference.

Yeah...I agree with this. The MAC may have missed their window. But in regards to your "one program" comment ... Why can't/shouldn't that be Ohio? Why just accept what the MAC has been the last 20 years and not try to change it .... or at least you?

Ohio is the one team I think that can break thru in the MAC. They are more financially committed than any other team in the league ... they've had NCAA success ... why continue to do what EMU, NIU and other other deadbeats of the MAC do just because they're in the same league?

Did Gonzaga just accept the averageness of the WCC .... same for Butler in the Horizon? Davidson in the SoCon?

Again, I'm not suggesting Ohio jump to the AAC. But what happens when Ohio starts putting together really good teams .... and they keep scheduling SWAC corpses? Why not just beef the schedule up ... try to build some "street cred" among the CBB world.

Rome wasn't built in a day ... and I don't think Ohio is going to suddenly start earning at-large bids with a better schedule. But if we take Saul Phillips at his word ... and he is here for the long haul .... why build a program that puts all its' eggs into a three-day March basket in Cleveland?

And if that's the case, what's the harm in taking a few L's in Nov/Dec if it really doesn't matter until March?

I think OUCountry hits nail on the head with the MAC home game referendum handcuffing Ohio (and others) from playing good road games. But I also think our program needs to take a fair share of the blame for putting these type of schedules together.

The schedule may not have kept us from an at-large bid .... but someday it might? Why take that chance? I don't really see the downside of challenging yourself by playing better competition than 4 SWACtion/Non-D1s?

OUVan wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Sorry, I don't consider the A10 a mid major. Neither do the folks who run the Mid Major Top 25 poll.

Neither do the TV networks.

Then why is the MAC's TV deal worth 10 million a year when the A10 is worth 5 million a year? The A10 is not a power conference.

https://www.bigeastcoastbias.com/2012/10/3/3448664/new-at...

Maybe because they don't have football. If you read the article it mentions that the ACC splits their payouts 80%/20% football/basketball. In those terms the MAC deal would allocate about $2M for basketball. Only three of their fourteen schools don't have a higher basketball budget than Ohio (we have the highest budget in the MAC with Akron right behind us). And all three of those schools are only slightly behind us and have significantly higher budgets than the 3rd place MAC team, BG.

The A-10 is not a POWER conference but they are a power conference. And if they aren't what does that make us?

It is really hard to compare the TV contracts for the A-10 and the MAC....because of what OUVan pointed out � football.

Football, no matter who is playing, generally draws a bigger audience than basketball. Therefore, the TV payout will be greater.

I look at it like this .... how many TV games did the MAC have last year? Nationally and regionally they promoted 80.

http://www.mac-sports.com/news/2016/10/19/WBB_1019164543....

On the other hand ... the A-10 had over 200.

http://www.atlantic10.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=3160...

The A-10 is light years ahead of the MAC in terms of college basketball.

Spending/budges, name recognition, NCAA success, etc.

Last Edited: 8/18/2017 9:51:52 AM by bshot44

OU_Country
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 10:41:12 AM

I think the requirement to home games needs adjusted to a smaller number, but I don't have any illusion that it would be a magic fix. I'm pretty much with Van's post as well. In the last 10 years, how many MAC teams were legitimately good enough for an at-large, assuming they'd scheduled accordingly? We've seen one Ohio team 2011-2012, 2012-13. We've seen a couple Akron teams, one UB team, and maybe Toledo a couple years ago. I don't know the exact teams, but the point is, there aren't many.

And then, IF, and it's a big if, they get the schedule and execute the schedule with some wins, it's still a crap shoot. The Monmouth example is the best one, but there are others for sure.

My hope is that this new emphasis on road wins makes a difference, but until proven otherwise, I agree that the committee demonstrates they care more about the conference a team comes from than anything else.

Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 10:51:17 AM

If the ACC is splitting its TV cash 80/20 and if they are making 20 million per year, 4 million per school. The Big East is getting 3.5 million but doesnt have football so one can say its a power conference for basketball. There are 65 programs in the P5 and 75 counting the Big East. The power is consolidated into 6 conferences. The old high major structure before realignment where the MVC, MWC, A10 ect. were all a step up from the MAC, CAA, CUSA just isnt the case anymore because they've been pushed down further. MVC Creighton, Wichta St. MWC BYU, Utah. A10 Xavier and Temple. Those are serious basketball losses.

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Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 11:07:20 AM

OUVan wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Sorry, I don't consider the A10 a mid major. Neither do the folks who run the Mid Major Top 25 poll.

Neither do the TV networks.

Then why is the MAC's TV deal worth 10 million a year when the A10 is worth 5 million a year? The A10 is not a power conference.

https://www.bigeastcoastbias.com/2012/10/3/3448664/new-at...

The difference is in the A10 you have catholic schools with a communitarian justification for higher basketball salaries where the MAC where the pay stays within 50% of the conference median regardless of how good the coach is. A10 schools do not have big basketball money generally speaking so when they do lose their million dollar coach the start the next guy at 300-400k a MAC salary. MAC though is gradually moving its salaries up as a collective group so the relative advantage of the A10 is getting smaller.

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OUVan
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 11:32:12 AM

bshot44 wrote:

It could be us but we keep losing our coaches. A middie has to get really lucky to not only get the right coach but also the right coach who isn't looking to jump at the first big pay increase. If Saul is serious about staying 10 years we've got a shot. But at the end of the day, it's going to be tough for us to take that next step because we are currently about where we should be based on basketball budget (122nd). And we aren't going to get there with three 300+ KP teams on our schedule. Assuming we don't lose anybody unexpectedly from the team, next year could be the year when everything gels. If we have those three teams or ones like them on the schedule next year then we'll know that that is just Saul. I'm sure the excuse this year is that there are so many new parts including two frosh PGs that he didn't want to overwhelm them. There should be no such excuse next year.

Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 11:45:12 AM

Its not about the budget number its about how much a university will pay their coaches. Is it enough to attract an existing D1 coach like we did with Saul? Is it enough to keep the coach from moving to the Big East? The MAC isnt quite there yet but good enough to bring in quality coaches.

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Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 12:07:42 PM

The argument push by some on here that football is holding us back when we've double down on coaching salries, made significant arena improvements and have a TV deal that wouldnt be possible without football doesnt have any weight to it. Its the MAC conservative approach that held us back.

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Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 12:26:29 PM

bshot44 wrote:

OUVan wrote:

The MAC has no hope of becoming a 2 bid conference. There is hope that Ohio can regualry win Cleveland and reguarly win in the NCAAs. Elevate beyond the conference level to something equvalent to a Big East program like Dayton and VCU are doing. Ohio is heading in that direction.

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Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 1:15:01 PM

College baskeball salaries aren't so high like it is in football with power schools at 4 or 5 million with assistant pools of another 3 or 4 million beyond that. Creighton and Marquette pay 1.2 million for their HC going by last years numbers and they were NCAA tournament teams from the Big East. We will need to see NCAA wins from Saul first though.

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bshot44
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 1:28:57 PM

OUVan wrote:

bshot44 wrote:

+100000000000

That is why I keep throwing out the question about last year's schedule?

With AC, Jaaron, KK and Dartis all returning starters and a pretty experienced bench .... why did Ohio put together a "turd in the punch bowl" schedule where it's best game was at GT?

Last year seemed like one of "those years" where you could have tried to make a serious run at an at-large. I know that won't be every year at Ohio ... but maybe every 3-4 years there's a somewhat special team with experience that could do something?

The 2012-13 team had a great schedule ... and just didn't capitalize on the opportunity to put together an at-large resume to go with their MAC regular season title/title game loss.

I think � as you said � this might "just be Saul" Each year there's been the hot-air about the schedule, yet it's looked remarkably similar. Some decent games coupled with some horrific dog games.

I agree with you .... will be very interested if this teams stays together/stays healthy, what will the schedule look like in 2018-19?

bshot44
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 1:32:26 PM

OU_Country wrote:

I'm not saying the MAC will have or has had an at-large worthy team every year. But there have been a few (you named most of them)

But what happens when there is that special team ... with the way this league schedules, I don't see them seriously cracking that conversation.

Akron had a great opportunity/window with Dambrot. They had the Lebron-connection for notoriety ... some good teams .... but AWFUL scheduling crippled them (and losing in the MAC tourney title game multiple times)

I'd hate to see Ohio rattle off 25 win seasons and never get a sniff of an at-large just because we decided we wanted to win the mythical SWAC/MAC challenge every year.

Again....don't need to play Kentucky, Duke and Kansas. Just make it a "rule" to not play teams out of conference below 200 or even 225 in the non-league .... or at least not multiple ones. That would be a start.

OUVan
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 2:06:46 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

The MAC has no hope of becoming a 2 bid conference.

All it takes is one at-large worthy team for a conference to get two bids.

bshot44
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 2:15:20 PM

OUVan wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

The MAC has no hope of becoming a 2 bid conference.

All it takes is one at-large worthy team for a conference to get two bids.

Exactly. I wouldn't call the Sun Belt or CUSA or the MAAC two-bid leagues ... but each one has been a multi-bid league in the last 15 years .... something the MAC has failed to do.

Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 4:07:09 PM

I am talking about the MAC as an every year 2 bid conference. Outside of the power leauges its just programs anymore. St. Marys, Gonaga, BYU, Wichita, Memphis, Cincinnati, Dayton, VCU if any of them don't win the tourney they are positioned for an at-large. Our goal should be to build a program that is in the NCAAs every year. To expect CMU, NIU, BG et all to pick it up and help Ohio secure an at-large is not realistic which is the goal for a lot of you on here.

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89Cat
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 4:34:29 PM

Well my question really blew up. I guess I wasn't the only person thinking about this.The last couple of years I have enjoyed going to the games but knowing that any game prior to the MAC Tournament is meaningless, (I know except for how we are seeded)has taken some of the enjoyment away.

How about eliminating the MAC Tournament?

Last Edited: 8/18/2017 4:35:55 PM by 89Cat

OUVan
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 4:39:54 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

For us to have a realistic chance at an at-large we are going to need those programs to step it up. But most importantly we have to step it up. All those programs you mentioned spend considerably more money on basketball except for Saint Mary's and the only reason they are where they are is that their coach has not only stayed but he has stayed for a salary which last time I looked would put him middle of the road in the MAC.

Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 9:24:28 PM

Doesn't anyone think how we finish in the MAC and the type of record we have is as important as winning those 3 games in Cleveland? I think its important for recruiting to consistently put up good records. A MAC coach is largely judged by how he performs in conference play. I don't understand this reductionist view that its all and only Cleveland which underscores the wish CMU, NIU and BG were good enough to prop the league up for at-large bids. I see it as a building process starting with a great coach, play good defense and start to move up the standings to become a credible threat in Cleveland. The scheduling mandate is in place so the CMU, NIU and BG's don't sell themselves on the road and go 0-14 in conference play. RPI for the MAC is trending up so I think the policy is working. Ohio has to schedule better within context of that policy.

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Big Willy
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 11:10:14 PM

OUVan wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

The MAC has no hope of becoming a 2 bid conference.

All it takes is one at-large worthy team for a conference to get two bids.

Not if that team wins the conference tourney.

bshot44
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/21/2017 10:32:54 AM

Uncle Wes wrote:

I think there is a better "happy medium" in the scheduling mandate. 7 home games for a MAC school in the non-conference is damn near impossible to fill with quality opponents.

So when NIU, CMU and EMU are playing MULTIPLE non-D1s just to fill the home game requirement, that does NOTHING to strengthen the MAC. It's literally doing the bare minimum to fulfill that requirement.

I think putting something together where the league doesn't necessarily mandate home games ... but mandates a minimum on sub-300 games. Monetary incentives for scheduling better?

I agree ... you don't want teams playing 11 road games and going 0-11 for paychecks. But what we have now makes for meaningless basketball and, in turn, almost makes the MAC season meaningless other than playing for seeding in Cleveland (which we have learned isn't all that important some years)

If Ohio didn't have to play these home games, maybe we wouldn't see 4 SWAC/Non-D1 games on the schedule. Would open up an opportunity to play another P6 game on the road or another quality mid-major.

I think the MAC's goal of strengthening the conference's standing in the RPI is nice ... but the way they're going about it isn't really doing much in really making the conference stronger.

Uncle Wes wrote:

I don't think the MAC would ever be a two-bid league every year. That just doesn't seem realistic. Not enough teams invest in basketball to make that a possibility. All those teams you mentioned all play schedules that allow them to not win the league tourney to earn a bid ... and because they get a handful of quality games built into their league schedule. Ohio doesn't have either of those .... they play a relatively bad non-conference schedule and get very few if any quality MAC games. 0 + 0 = 0.

Last Edited: 8/21/2017 10:37:06 AM by bshot44

Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/21/2017 11:09:48 AM

I'm not sure I agree that football investments have hurt the basketball program. The weight room built at the football stadium was a huge upgrade over the closet in the Convo. The IPF has indoor sprint lanes for the basketball team. The new academic center is going to be an upgrade for the basketball program. Does Bradley and Loyola have facilites like that on campus? They have no football.

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Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/21/2017 11:24:01 AM

OUVan wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

The MAC has no hope of becoming a 2 bid conference.

All it takes is one at-large worthy team for a conference to get two bids.

I'm talking a conference that is at least 2 NCAA bids maybe 3 or 4 on a good year. A real 2 bid conference like the AAC or A10. The AAC plays 81% of games home/neutral and the A10 76%. Playing more at home is good but the MAC can't seem to get enough D1 opponnets for it. MAC is at 63%. SWAC at 5%

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Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/21/2017 11:34:52 AM

That link I provided said that if the MVC, MAC, CAA, CUSA could stand together and play 60-70% home games plus each other H/H they could steal as many as 6 bids from the power conferences.

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OUVan
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/21/2017 11:40:53 AM

bshot44 wrote:

I think there is a better "happy medium" in the scheduling mandate. 7 home games for a MAC school in the non-conference is damn near impossible to fill with quality opponents.

Does anybody know what the average MAC team pays for teams to come in? I read somewhere that the average P5 school pays about $75K-$100K (plus transportation and lodging) for their home games.

Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/21/2017 1:10:18 PM

Ohio probably pays the same for buy games.

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OU_Country
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/21/2017 3:23:41 PM

bshot44 wrote:

So when NIU, CMU and EMU are playing MULTIPLE non-D1s just to fill the home game requirement, that does NOTHING to strengthen the MAC. It's literally doing the bare minimum to fulfill that requirement.

I'm with you on the argument about the number of MAC required non-conf home games needing revision. That said, as the rules are currently, the multiple non-D1's doesn't hurt much on the side of the RPI/SOS, etc numbers because they don't even get calculated. I'm not in favor of that mind you, but it's the way it is according to what I read last year on this subject.

Of course it does hurt when it comes to perception. Since the selection committee changes their at-large criteria about every 3- years, who knows what will make a difference in scheduling next year.

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