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Author Message OU_Country General User Member Since: 12/6/2005 Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County Post Count: 8,320 Status: Offline     Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/11/2017 10:29:40 AM  In other threads, there were some comments about how coaches have been leaving for greener pastures for years, and that players have become mercenaries in the transfer business. So, I ask the question "have coaches really been doing it for years?". Sure, it gets a lot of press when coaches like John Groce leave places like Ohio for Illinois, or Archie Miller from Dayton to Indiana. But in the end, how many coaches leave jobs by choice? And of those leaving by choice, how many of the fans out there (including us on this board) wouldn't change jobs for a 50% or more pay raise? I'm pretty sure John Groce (as my examples) would still be at Illinois, or Tom Crean at Indiana given their choice. I looked at the last three years of this. The number of coaches who have left are listed. Remember that roughly half of them left because they were relieved of their position. There are (I think) 351 D-1 head coaching jobs. 2017: 39 (11%) 2016: 51 (14.5%) 2015: 34 (10%) Also interesting, since some say the transfers are an “epidemic”, it’s interesting, at least for this year, to see that the percentage of transfers (422 of 4,563 or about 9.5%) nationwide generally mirror the percentage of coaching changes. http://www.verbalcommits.com/transfers/2017 http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18... http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14... http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12... Back to Top giacomo General User Member Since: 11/20/2007 Post Count: 2,624 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/12/2017 2:51:23 PM  Good stuff. People always exaggerate and you've shown the numbers. Back to Top OU_Country General User Member Since: 12/6/2005 Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County Post Count: 8,320 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/12/2017 2:54:39 PM  Thanks. I'll grant you, I've only looked at 3 years. Trends could show it's much "worse" than ten years ago related to both coaching and player changes. Back to Top giacomo General User Member Since: 11/20/2007 Post Count: 2,624 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/13/2017 11:02:04 AM  I also agree with you in that if a coach can leave and coach somewhere else immediately, then a player should also have that right. Gone are the days when coaches were considered teachers and made relatively the same money, and players were truly student/athletes. Back to Top Jeff McKinney Moderator Member Since: 11/12/2004 Post Count: 6,047 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/13/2017 11:12:25 AM  giacomo wrote: I also agree with you in that if a coach can leave and coach somewhere else immediately, then a player should also have that right. Gone are the days when coaches were considered teachers and made relatively the same money, and players were truly student/athletes. As we have discussed on here in the past, the problem would be continuous poaching of mid major and low major players by high majors. There would be little stability if sitting out a year was eliminated. Back to Top Alan Swank General User Member Since: 12/11/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 7,023 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/13/2017 11:36:56 AM  Jeff McKinney wrote: giacomo wrote: I also agree with you in that if a coach can leave and coach somewhere else immediately, then a player should also have that right. Gone are the days when coaches were considered teachers and made relatively the same money, and players were truly student/athletes. As we have discussed on here in the past, the problem would be continuous poaching of mid major and low major players by high majors. There would be little stability if sitting out a year was eliminated. So we simply continue the charade of student athletics? Back to Top OUVan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Bethesda, MD Post Count: 5,580 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/13/2017 11:42:37 AM  Alan Swank wrote: Jeff McKinney wrote: giacomo wrote: I also agree with you in that if a coach can leave and coach somewhere else immediately, then a player should also have that right. Gone are the days when coaches were considered teachers and made relatively the same money, and players were truly student/athletes. As we have discussed on here in the past, the problem would be continuous poaching of mid major and low major players by high majors. There would be little stability if sitting out a year was eliminated. So we simply continue the charade of student athletics? What charade? The vast majority of college athletes are true student athletes. You can't throw most of the students under the bus because of the handful that aren't. Particularly when a growing number of transfers each year are graduate transfers which means they have already graduated. Back to Top OU_Country General User Member Since: 12/6/2005 Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County Post Count: 8,320 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/13/2017 12:16:51 PM  OUVan wrote: What charade? The vast majority of college athletes are true student athletes. You can't throw most of the students under the bus because of the handful that aren't. Particularly when a growing number of transfers each year are graduate transfers which means they have already graduated. I'm in agreement with you Van, that generally it is not a charade. Probably Two-thirds or more don't play at any level professionally in college basketball. I'd be interested to see the numbers. The only part of the transfer rule I'm opposed to is the Grad transfers being eligible immediately. While I know some do actually make the decisions based on career aspirations unrelated to basketball, and for academics, my feeling is that the majority do not. Therefore, to me, they ought to sit out a year to work on their field of study that the school says they are transferring for. But beyond that, I think it would be interesting to see the percentage of transfers that are leaving strictly on their own decision, rather than because the coach left, or was fired. If a coach leaves, I support the idea that a player or commit deserves the right to consider doing so as well. The sit out year keeps it from effectively being free agency. That's why I don't agree with the Grad transfer rule being different. Back to Top OUVan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Bethesda, MD Post Count: 5,580 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/13/2017 4:36:35 PM  OU_Country wrote: OUVan wrote: What charade? The vast majority of college athletes are true student athletes. You can't throw most of the students under the bus because of the handful that aren't. Particularly when a growing number of transfers each year are graduate transfers which means they have already graduated. I'm in agreement with you Van, that generally it is not a charade. Probably Two-thirds or more don't play at any level professionally in college basketball. I'd be interested to see the numbers. The only part of the transfer rule I'm opposed to is the Grad transfers being eligible immediately. While I know some do actually make the decisions based on career aspirations unrelated to basketball, and for academics, my feeling is that the majority do not. Therefore, to me, they ought to sit out a year to work on their field of study that the school says they are transferring for. But beyond that, I think it would be interesting to see the percentage of transfers that are leaving strictly on their own decision, rather than because the coach left, or was fired. If a coach leaves, I support the idea that a player or commit deserves the right to consider doing so as well. The sit out year keeps it from effectively being free agency. That's why I don't agree with the Grad transfer rule being different. I agree. IMO it should be hard for players to transfer. Universities aren't offering basketball careers. They are offering education. They are willing to give you a free education, one that 99.9% of the students attending these universities will pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for, in exchange for you providing a service for them. I'm fine with letting recruits out of LOIs but once you have started classes both your and the school's commitments are binding. Remove the penalties and chaos ensues. Dumbing down the rules to facilitate the players who are not there to get an education is completely counterproductive IMO. I think the grad transfer rule came from a good place but its practical application isn't turning out like it was intended (for the most par). It's turning smaller schools into minor league clubs for the big boys. Back to Top giacomo General User Member Since: 11/20/2007 Post Count: 2,624 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/13/2017 5:06:57 PM  When coaches make millions it is no longer higher education, but rather free enterprise. In the current system the players are chattel. It will change at some point. Maybe it is better for kids not to transfer. Maybe it's better for you to stay at your current job and be married to your current wife and drive your current car....you see my point. I feel no sympathy for the player if he fails. He was given an opportunity and let the chips fall where they may. I think the baseball owners made the same argument when Curt Flood fought the reserve clause. Back to Top Alan Swank General User Member Since: 12/11/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 7,023 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/13/2017 5:22:00 PM  OUVan wrote: Alan Swank wrote: Jeff McKinney wrote: giacomo wrote: I also agree with you in that if a coach can leave and coach somewhere else immediately, then a player should also have that right. Gone are the days when coaches were considered teachers and made relatively the same money, and players were truly student/athletes. As we have discussed on here in the past, the problem would be continuous poaching of mid major and low major players by high majors. There would be little stability if sitting out a year was eliminated. So we simply continue the charade of student athletics? What charade? The vast majority of college athletes are true student athletes. You can't throw most of the students under the bus because of the handful that aren't. Particularly when a growing number of transfers each year are graduate transfers which means they have already graduated. Student athletes is a buzz word feel good term. Many not most are in school simply to play ball for a few more years and provide us with some pretty good entertainment. Back to Top bornacatfan General User Member Since: 8/3/2006 Post Count: 5,706 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/13/2017 7:01:59 PM  student athletes is a feel good term? Student athlete is a charade? You are going to have to explain that rationale. Drive by comments... OHHH CRAP. Damn I am so stupid. Got sucked right in....when am I going to learn to just ignore? never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer..... The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game Back to Top OhioStunter General User Member Since: 2/18/2005 Location: Chicago Post Count: 2,516 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/13/2017 7:33:49 PM  Overall, 80 percent of Division I men’s basketball players earned a degree in six years, up 3 points from last year. Of all African-American Division I student-athletes, 74 percent graduated within six years. These rates are all-time highs as well and based on student-athletes who entered college in 2009. http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/afr... Back to Top rpbobcat General User Member Since: 4/28/2006 Location: Rochelle Park, NJ Post Count: 3,504 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/13/2017 8:27:24 PM  OhioStunter wrote: Overall, 80 percent of Division I men’s basketball players earned a degree in six years, up 3 points from last year. Of all African-American Division I student-athletes, 74 percent graduated within six years. These rates are all-time highs as well and based on student-athletes who entered college in 2009. http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/afr... What would be interesting to see is a breakdown of what the degrees are in. A couple of years ago I believe it was Real Sports that did a segment about colleges creating degree programs whose only benefit was keeping athletes eligible. They showed athletes who earned degrees but still ended up having no options but minimum wage jobs. Back to Top Alan Swank General User Member Since: 12/11/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 7,023 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/13/2017 9:00:39 PM  rpbobcat wrote: OhioStunter wrote: Overall, 80 percent of Division I men’s basketball players earned a degree in six years, up 3 points from last year. Of all African-American Division I student-athletes, 74 percent graduated within six years. These rates are all-time highs as well and based on student-athletes who entered college in 2009. http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/afr... What would be interesting to see is a breakdown of what the degrees are in. A couple of years ago I believe it was Real Sports that did a segment about colleges creating degree programs whose only benefit was keeping athletes eligible. They showed athletes who earned degrees but still ended up having no options but minimum wage jobs. Great point and very much related to something I just shake my head at - a university that has adults waiting outside classrooms to make sure the athletes attend class. To be perfectly clear, this is the exception rather than the rule but it is a tad mind boggling that it does happen. Last Edited: 4/13/2017 9:08:29 PM by Alan Swank Back to Top NewAthenian General User Member Since: 4/6/2017 Post Count: 42 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/14/2017 9:33:49 AM  Regarding the "charade" of student athletics...this has been discussed, but I think only as it applies to the athletic side of the equation. Consider the academic side for a moment. This is anecdotal of course, but I've lived in and around colleges all my life; attending twice. I crashed and burned in my late teens (1.8 gpa), and soared with the eagles in my late 30s (3.9). From my own experience and interaction with other students and faculty, I learned the same lesson regarding academics both times. There is some segment of the student body (me included, the first time) that see academics as a hurdle... ironically, as a hurdle to getting a degree. They don't seem to believe that "what they learned" is going to get them a job, but the piece of paper will. (This is beside the point, but at best the piece of paper alone is only going to help in getting the first job.) Given this, I see no reason to be surprised that some student-athletes are gaming the system. They are students, after all. Playing their sport, and maybe making a profession of it is really no different on some level than the average student. Yes, it stings that they are getting scholarships for playing, but I think the charade comes less from the free ride and more from simple human nature. Back to Top OhioStunter General User Member Since: 2/18/2005 Location: Chicago Post Count: 2,516 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/14/2017 10:12:26 AM  NewAthenian wrote: I see no reason to be surprised that some student-athletes are gaming the system. And some may say the system is gaming some student-athletes. Back to Top giacomo General User Member Since: 11/20/2007 Post Count: 2,624 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/14/2017 10:46:28 AM  NewAthenian, you make some very good points. Which makes the transfer rule kind of silly. It doesn't benefit the players, but rather the coaches, who are making all the money in this system. Nobody cares if a student transfers out of the business school to go to another business school. Or if a tuba player wants to play in the 110 after playing in Miami's band. They are serving their own best interest. Back to Top OUVan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Bethesda, MD Post Count: 5,580 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/14/2017 11:28:01 AM  OhioStunter wrote: NewAthenian wrote: I see no reason to be surprised that some student-athletes are gaming the system. And some may say the system is gaming some student-athletes. If these athletes are not taking advantage of the huge opportunity that is presented to them they are gaming themselves. Back to Top OU_Country General User Member Since: 12/6/2005 Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County Post Count: 8,320 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/14/2017 12:31:24 PM  OUVan wrote: I think the grad transfer rule came from a good place but its practical application isn't turning out like it was intended (for the most par). It's turning smaller schools into minor league clubs for the big boys. Honestly, this is the only part of the transfer game, and coaching carousel that I have a problem with. Otherwise, I agree with Giacomo below. The kids (an sometimes parents) have to deal with the consequences of a decision to move to a different school. Sometimes its not for the best, sometimes it is. The recruiting of players currently on scholarship at another school, and allowing a kid who redshirts for whatever reason to leave early with no sit out year are the only two real problems I see in the system. giacomo wrote: When coaches make millions it is no longer higher education, but rather free enterprise. In the current system the players are chattel. It will change at some point. Maybe it is better for kids not to transfer. Maybe it's better for you to stay at your current job and be married to your current wife and drive your current car....you see my point. I feel no sympathy for the player if he fails. He was given an opportunity and let the chips fall where they may. I think the baseball owners made the same argument when Curt Flood fought the reserve clause. Back to Top NewAthenian General User Member Since: 4/6/2017 Post Count: 42 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/14/2017 5:00:11 PM  OhioStunter wrote: NewAthenian wrote: I see no reason to be surprised that some student-athletes are gaming the system. And some may say the system is gaming some student-athletes. Almost certainly. Take your pick: staff, university, NCAA... ps - I keep failing to get my thinking back on the topic of this thread. I guess I want to say that sure it sucks when you get emotionally invested in a coach and then they leave for greener pasture$. Concerning universities however, this is par for the course. Regular raises (if any) for faculty and staff rarely keep pace with "market value" for a given position. It's a bit of a running joke that to get a real raise you have to go somewhere else - because that market value will be a starting point in salary negotiations. In coaching we're talking more money than the average bear sure, but I think the principle is the same. Last Edited: 4/14/2017 5:19:39 PM by NewAthenian Back to Top Bobcat1996 General User Member Since: 1/2/2017 Post Count: 795 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/14/2017 7:08:46 PM  student athletes is a feel good term? Student athlete is a charade? You are going to have to explain that rationale. Drive by comments... OHHH CRAP. Damn I am so stupid. Got sucked right in....when am I going to learn to just ignore? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. Bornacatfan- You said it best, just ignore some posters as the main goal is to stir the pot. IGNORE IGNORE!! Back to Top OhioCatFan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 14,016 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/16/2017 11:57:46 PM  Alan Swank wrote: Jeff McKinney wrote: giacomo wrote: I also agree with you in that if a coach can leave and coach somewhere else immediately, then a player should also have that right. Gone are the days when coaches were considered teachers and made relatively the same money, and players were truly student/athletes. As we have discussed on here in the past, the problem would be continuous poaching of mid major and low major players by high majors. There would be little stability if sitting out a year was eliminated. So we simply continue the charade of student athletics? I think you'd see "gaming" both ways. Sixth men at P6 schools that think they should be starters would be poached by non-P6 schools. It would be a complete unadulterated mess. The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA "It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right." Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org Back to Top Alan Swank General User Member Since: 12/11/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 7,023 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/17/2017 1:35:41 PM  A few years old but an interesting read none the less. https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/the-myth... / Back to Top bornacatfan General User Member Since: 8/3/2006 Post Count: 5,706 Status: Offline     RE: Thoughts about coaching changes - is it as bad as it's made out to be?    Posted: 4/18/2017 8:44:52 AM  Alan Swank wrote: A few years old but an interesting read none the less. https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/the-myth... / Interesting in the same way his views on religion, philosophy,drug use, ISIS, racism and guns and other various subjects are interesting. It is an OPINION and reflects his views using the numbers he wants to make a point. I take it FWIW thinking it would be very interesting to be an athlete in his philosophy class at ND. (I say this thinking of Brother Bernie OSB teaching our philosophy class and I chuckle) The numbers are improving according to some and multiple sources refute his postulation if you are looking for articles that have their own slant. Some of the links in the original article are not usable while others are old info. Current NCAA graph shows steady improvement...but those are the NCAA numbers and reflect *Their* interest. http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2016GSRImage_Cros... I read em all and take em FWIW. The NCAA and it's leadership are certainly pushing to show athletes are students first and they are ensuring many kids who would not otherwise get an education do so. They would love to trot around their numbers of higher graduation rates than the normal student population ....but there is always going to be the faction trotting out ideas and numbers showing what a detriment athletics are to the academic world. And there will always be contributors to message boards who trot out the article they want to support the view they want to stir the pot. We can go back and forth as fans for years on this but I can look back on 30 years of treating athletes and see them now with kids of their own practicing in their Medical Offices, with their MBA's, Doctorates from MIT, teaching degrees, biz degrees, architecture. public health and a myriad of professions now as adults and tehy will all say "yeah I was an athlete at ..." long before they say...."I was a student at..." even though the education they got provided the basis for their career. So his story is right when he says " football and men’s basketball players (who are my primary focus here) identify themselves more strongly as athletes than as students, gave more weight in choosing their college to athletics than to academics"... But it only tells part of the story. Those same athletes are graduating at a higher rate and are being able to use the education from the BULK of the 351 D1 schools to go on into life with the one thing they can't take away once you earned it. Thanks for the article. Served to give me something to ponder over breakfast. Made me look up a few of our former athletes and see what they were up to... and think maybe this philosopher/opinionator may want to look further than ND and similar ranked unis to probe the schools that do not make up the "regulars" at March Madness or in the Top 8-10 BCS bowls. never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer..... 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