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Topic:  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors

Topic:  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
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Obc2
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/25/2017 4:19:42 PM 
Saul has had Ohio in the MAC tourney as a 2 seed in consecutive years.

I dont remember if Groce ever got a 2 seed. Anyone?
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allen
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/25/2017 5:09:32 PM 
Obc2 wrote:
Saul has had Ohio in the MAC tourney as a 2 seed in consecutive years.

I dont remember if Groce ever got a 2 seed. Anyone?


There is absolutely no glory in a 2 seed. Anyone? Saul will get us to the tourney, let's not condescend to a mediocre state.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes
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Bobcat1996
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/26/2017 1:08:48 PM 
The key to the MAC tourney is getting hot at the right time as Groce and his team did a few times and Kent did this year. Ask Akron if a top seed and regular season title helped them? It boils down to playing well for a few games in Cleveland. The regular season for MAC teams is basically nothing more than practice for the league tournament. Many years the teams are somewhat equal in talent and sometimes it is a six seed or a three seed that wins the tourney. The league isn't going to get two NCAA bids, so the ultimate goal should be to peak in early March. The top seeds in power conferences don't sweat out Selection Sunday like many of the smaller leagues as they know they are already locked into a big dance bid.
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GraffZ06
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/26/2017 3:00:07 PM 
Call me when the regular season means anything in the MAC. It's completely pointless. Literally all that matters (both in terms of national perception and in real, hard dollars) is one week in Cleveland and the NCAA tournament. (Note - this is unfortunate and wish it weren't true - but sadly it is).

Maybe if we weren't the #20 ranked conference (see my analysis on how the MAC ranks statistically over the last 12 years) - in an alternate world where the MAC prioritizes basketball over football (and thus paid for facilities/coaches/recruiting), emphasized P5 OOC schedules (and actually won some of those games) to the point that our national perception/standing was increased enough to be a regular in the at-large bid consideration - then, and only then, will the MAC regular season matter again.

Based on that standard - Groce's results so far outweigh any other coach in recent history it's not funny. He succeeded at the only time it mattered. The fact that his teams weren't always great in January only matters to people who don't understand how college basketball works today. Literally meaningless (beyond seeding for the MAC tournament - which actually matters).

Let's take a walk down memory lane of OU coaches. I went back to the Trautwein years. Let's see how many times our coaches led our team to either the NCAA or NIT tournaments (the CBI and CIT aren't accomplishments - just reason to extend careers of seniors and get another week or so of practice with the team).

Dutch Trautwein 1939-1949 (11 years), 1 post-season (9.1%, 1 every 11.00 years)
Jim Snyder 1950-1974 (25 years), 9 post-seasons (36.0%, 1 every 2.78 years)
Dale Bandy 1975-1980 (6 years), 0 post-seasons (0.0%, 1 every - years)
Danny Nee 1981-1986 (6 years), 3 post-seasons (50.0%, 1 ever 2.00 years)
Billy Hahn 1987-1989 (3 years), 0 post-seasons (0.0%, 1 every - years)
Larry Hunter 1990-2001 (12 years), 2 post-seasons (16.7%, 1 every 6.00 years)
Tim O'Shea 2002-2008 (7 years), 1 post-season (14.3%, 1 every 7.00 years)
John Groce 2009-2012 (4 years), 2 post-seasons (50.0%, 1 every 2.00 years)
Jim Christian 2013-2014 (2 years), 1 post-season (50.0%, 1 every 2.00 years)
Saul Phillips 2015-2017 (3 years), 0 post-seasons (0.0%, 1 every - years)

So statistically - ranking our coaches on post-season appearance frequency
1. Danny Nee (3 appearances, 50%)
2. John Groce (2 appearances, 50%)
3. Jim Christian (1 appearance, 50%)
4. Jim Snyder (9 appearances, 36%)
5. Larry Hunter (1 appearance, 17%)
6. Tim O'Shea (1 appearance, 14%)
7t. Billy Hahn / Saul Phillips (0 appearances in 3 years)
9. Dale Bandy (0 appearances in 6 years)

Then when you start looking at post-season WINS Christian falls off the list and it's really - Nee, Groce and Snyder....then everybody else.

Trying to say anything less about JG tenure here is revisionist history, or lack of historical perspective/understanding of what actually matters.

Last Edited: 3/26/2017 3:11:02 PM by GraffZ06
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Casper71
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/26/2017 8:15:48 PM 
Started me thinking...what is more important: winning the MACC or getting to the NCAA tournament? With Snyder, winning one usually meant the other because of the NCAA tournament structure back then.

Bottom line, in this era with O'Shea, Groce, JC, and SP looks like we should go to the NCAA tournament about once every four years. So, next year is the year!
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Bobcat1996
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/26/2017 9:27:55 PM 
Call me when the regular season means anything in the MAC. It's completely pointless. Literally all that matters (both in terms of national perception and in real, hard dollars) is one week in Cleveland and the NCAA tournament. (Note - this is unfortunate and wish it weren't true - but sadly it is).


Graff is correct. As long as the MAC office insists on playing the tourney in Cleveland the 18 game regular season is basically one long scrimmage until early March. If the league truly wants to reward the regular season champ then play the semis or at least the finals at the home of the regular season winner. TV dollars and lodging could be a problem, but as it stands now the regular season winner gets nothing more than a slap on the back.
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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/26/2017 10:06:20 PM 
Bobcat1996 wrote:
Call me when the regular season means anything in the MAC. It's completely pointless. Literally all that matters (both in terms of national perception and in real, hard dollars) is one week in Cleveland and the NCAA tournament. (Note - this is unfortunate and wish it weren't true - but sadly it is).


Graff is correct. As long as the MAC office insists on playing the tourney in Cleveland the 18 game regular season is basically one long scrimmage until early March. If the league truly wants to reward the regular season champ then play the semis or at least the finals at the home of the regular season winner. TV dollars and lodging could be a problem, but as it stands now the regular season winner gets nothing more than a slap on the back.


Well, there really are only two options for league champs:

not win the MAC tourney --> NIT (slap on the back)
win the MAC tourney --> Big Dance (slap on the ass)

What else is there?
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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/26/2017 10:45:27 PM 
The hope for the next couple of season I think is for a couple more good coaching hires in the MAC that would position the MAC tourney champion to be more successful in the NCAAs. Saul if he could get the Bobcats to play better defense to the point where Ohio was winning the regular season title with a great chance of the NCAAs every season and a chance to do damage when we make it is about the best case scenario. Defense is the great equalizer. Think of what Oregon did to Kansas. Saul is not quite there yet but with a few years of Adidas, CBS Sports and Convo improvements could be. The momentum behind the program is good.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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RSBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/27/2017 12:23:28 AM 
Uncle Wes wrote:
Saul is not quite there yet but with a few years of Adidas, CBS Sports and Convo improvements could be. The momentum behind the program is good.


You forgot new hand dryers in the restrooms, bev/alc holders on the back of the seats (and said same sold on the premises and allowed into the arena), hanging score/video board, and removal of access blocking security gates around the Convo that stretch from the new by-pass around Nelsonville to the Ohio River, and local H.S. sports competition around a half dozen counties that often puts OHIO into NCAA D3 level home court support level opportunity.....

RS Bobcat

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/27/2017 7:24:04 AM 
Casper71 wrote:
Started me thinking...what is more important: winning the MACC or getting to the NCAA tournament? With Snyder, winning one usually meant the other because of the NCAA tournament structure back then.

Bottom line, in this era with O'Shea, Groce, JC, and SP looks like we should go to the NCAA tournament about once every four years. So, next year is the year!


One thing a lot of people forget is that, "back in the day",the N.I.T. was the tournament to play in,not the NCAA.

Its before my time,but my dad told that there were teams that turned down NCAA bids to play in the N.I.T.
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MedinaCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/27/2017 8:50:20 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Casper71 wrote:
Started me thinking...what is more important: winning the MACC or getting to the NCAA tournament? With Snyder, winning one usually meant the other because of the NCAA tournament structure back then.

Bottom line, in this era with O'Shea, Groce, JC, and SP looks like we should go to the NCAA tournament about once every four years. So, next year is the year!


One thing a lot of people forget is that, "back in the day",the N.I.T. was the tournament to play in,not the NCAA.

Its before my time,but my dad told that there were teams that turned down NCAA bids to play in the N.I.T.


My dad used to tell me the same...here is an interesting read on the subject.

https://maconlikebacon.wordpress.com/the-ncaa /
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/27/2017 9:03:33 AM 
Thanks !
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OUoughtaKnow
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/27/2017 9:10:47 AM 
OhioStunter wrote:
Bobcat1996 wrote:
Call me when the regular season means anything in the MAC. It's completely pointless. Literally all that matters (both in terms of national perception and in real, hard dollars) is one week in Cleveland and the NCAA tournament. (Note - this is unfortunate and wish it weren't true - bu


Well, there really are only two options for league champs:

not win the MAC tourney --> NIT (slap on the back)
win the MAC tourney --> Big Dance (slap on the ass)

What else is there?
Really ? Ask Michigan - USF - Georgetown .
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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/27/2017 9:38:26 AM 
GraffZ06 wrote:
Call me when the regular season means anything in the MAC. It's completely pointless. Literally all that matters (both in terms of national perception and in real, hard dollars) is one week in Cleveland and the NCAA tournament. (Note - this is unfortunate and wish it weren't true - but sadly it is).



Dead on Graff....been saying it for years. Give me 3 MAC Tourney wins and a Sweet 16 appearance in the last 5 years over any MAC regular season championship. The nation has no idea how many MAC regular season championship Akron has won, but they sure remember OHIO beating Georgetown, Michigan and almost making the Elite 8.

Every year, the entire season comes down to 40 minutes on a March Saturday night in Cleveland. Do you think Akron will have a team reunion 20 years from now celebrating its 2016-2017 MAC Regular Season Championship?? Ummm....no.


Last Edited: 3/27/2017 9:47:57 AM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/27/2017 10:07:46 AM 
I would not be so quick to denigrate winning the regular season championship. It certainly is worth achieving and celebrating. The tourney is another achievement entirely. We are not in the position of a Louisville, who knows they will likely be in the dance and pace themselves to prepare for it.
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Bobcat1996
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/27/2017 11:31:14 AM 
Giacomo- I wasn't actually knocking the importance of a MAC regular season title, however the regular season champ often times gets left behind when it comes to an invite to the big dance. The league emphasizes peaking in early March and winning three games in Cleveland. TV and $$$ dictates that. If by some chance the league office would change the tourney format and reward the league champ with a home game or two in the tourney then the regular season would become relevant. As it is now, it is just an 18 game scrimmage until the games in Cleveland. Teams can be seeded 8, 3 or 1, all have a shot at making the big dance.
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/27/2017 11:37:02 AM 
Bobcat1996 wrote:
Giacomo- I wasn't actually knocking the importance of a MAC regular season title, however the regular season champ often times gets left behind when it comes to an invite to the big dance. The league emphasizes peaking in early March and winning three games in Cleveland. TV and $$$ dictates that. If by some chance the league office would change the tourney format and reward the league champ with a home game or two in the tourney then the regular season would become relevant. As it is now, it is just an 18 game scrimmage until the games in Cleveland. Teams can be seeded 8, 3 or 1, all have a shot at making the big dance.



An 18 game scrimmage? Good grief.
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allen
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/27/2017 11:43:01 AM 
giacomo wrote:
I would not be so quick to denigrate winning the regular season championship. It certainly is worth achieving and celebrating. The tourney is another achievement entirely. We are not in the position of a Louisville, who knows they will likely be in the dance and pace themselves to prepare for it.


There is no glory in winning the rgular season title unless you have played a great nonconference schedule and get an at large bid. The MAC has a lot of talent, but they are an up and down league. The MAC is ripe for a team to implement a system like Butler and Gonzaga did and dominate the league and beat big conference schools. One coach has to build that brand, hopefully it is Saul. You have to recruit good players and be open to making changes, you have to use critical thinking skills. Kent can beat a top 25 school and then turn around and lose to a 200+ team, so can Buffalo and Akron because they have the personnel. We are close to having the personnell, now we need the system that makes it tough for opponennts to defend us and the system that makes if hard for opponents to score on us. It takes practice and after action reviews and tweaks. Most of all it takes player buy in. Don't tell Jaaron or anybody that they can do whatever they want, tell them to trust the system. You can't worship the players, you have to coach and lead the players.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/27/2017 12:09:14 PM 
So based on what a few of you are saying here, we as fans shouldn't even bother attending games until the MAC Tournament because they don't matter at all? If the non-conference schedule doesn't merit at-large consideration then winning the MAC regular season means nothing?

WHAT????


If you're only following a team because they're going to make the tournament, you might as well uproot yourselves and move to Lexington, Kentucky; Durham, NC; or Lawrence, Kansas. Those are about the only places that constant winning and making the tournament is guaranteed. If that's the same attitude you apply to things, you should also quit watching Ohio Football all together, because they can't play for a national title, so their games also mean nothing, and are basically a scrimmage every time they take the field.

Now I don't feel that way, but that's basically what you're saying if you say the MAC season, and hanging a MAC Championship, mean nothing. I won't argue that people remember going to the tournament more, and winning in the tournament even more. But to say the rest of the season means nothing is simply ridiculous.

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Bobcat1996
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/27/2017 8:43:09 PM 
The major difference is that in basketball all the teams get a chance to go to the big dance, if they win the league tourney, even the 10-11-12 seeds.

Last Edited: 3/27/2017 8:44:45 PM by Bobcat1996
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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/27/2017 9:50:05 PM 
giacomo wrote:
I wish him well, even at Miami. As Don Corleone said "It's business, not personal". It's true that Duquesne would pay more than Miami, but can you win at Duquesne? I think the Miami job is better for his long term career. He got his payday once and hope he saved his money.


Agreed. We need Miami to be good again. I hope does well and loses to us in the tournament every year. And I hope he handles our crowd as well as Charlie did.
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: HoopDirt.com hearing Groce to Miami rumors
   Posted: 3/27/2017 10:14:33 PM 
Akron board wants John Groce. Akron cannot afford Groce and Akron education isn't smart enough to teach that. If shadow booster Lebron James doesn't hire Dru Joyce and somehow greenlights John Groce, I will be at risk of spontaneous combustion.

I've seen crazier things happen.

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