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Topic:  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion

Topic:  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/11/2016 2:24:37 PM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:


I think that choice argument is over-rated and needs to be examined for reality.

A variety of financial and/or personal circumstances may make going to school away from nearby choices impractical/impossible.



Right. Ohio University students had no choice but to attend Ohio University. It was their ONLY option.


There have been some good arguments made in favor of subsidies in this thread. This is not one of them. As a quick example, if an Ohioan wants to study journalism at an ACEJMC certified state university, they have three options. They can pay a subsidy at Ohio, pay a subsidy at Bowling Green, or pay a subsidy at Kent State. I think you know full well that students and their parents, many of whom are choosing state schools for cost reasons, cannot avoid the subsidy without significant compromise whether they like it or not.


You are hardly the measure of good and bad arguments. Take a reality check on your ego.

Which of those three schools have the lowest sports fee? Why don't all the students apply and go there? Or are you telling me the students at Scripps all wanted to go elsewhere, but Ohio was their only choice. The poor darlings.

Last Edited: 6/11/2016 2:25:17 PM by Robert Fox
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/11/2016 2:44:09 PM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:


I think that choice argument is over-rated and needs to be examined for reality.

A variety of financial and/or personal circumstances may make going to school away from nearby choices impractical/impossible.



Right. Ohio University students had no choice but to attend Ohio University. It was their ONLY option.




Robert--That is a truly unimpressive comment/argument (especially re choice overall). I suppose that in the least possible way it responds to what I said.

Big surprise.




That's because your argument--like so many of your arguments--are based in nonsense. Ohio University admission is up. Way up. Ohio University applications are up. Way up. During all that time of increase, the athletic fee has been in place, unhidden from view. If this were a big deal, students would be raising hell about it but... crickets.

No one gives a sh*t but a small sampling of alumni with nothing better to worry about. If this becomes an issue, students and parents will raise hell about it until the school suffers, through reduced applications or reduced admissions or both. Then, the school will likely do something about it.

Until then, it's so much noise, spitting into the wind, idealistic BS. Funny thing is, I'm currently paying this fee and you're not, yet you're the one bitching about it.
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/11/2016 11:13:57 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:

You are hardly the measure of good and bad arguments. Take a reality check on your ego.

Which of those three schools have the lowest sports fee? Why don't all the students apply and go there? Or are you telling me the students at Scripps all wanted to go elsewhere, but Ohio was their only choice. The poor darlings.


Not sure how my ego is involved. You presented a crap argument and I demonstrated why it was crap.
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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/12/2016 12:40:21 AM 
Questions: What are student fees, and the percentage of athletic budgets covered by student fees, at:

NCAA Div II public universities
NCAA Div II private universities
NCAA Div III public universities
NCAA Div III private universities
NAIA Div I institutions
NAIA Div II institutions

How do these figures compare to NCAA Div I?
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Monroe Slavin
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Location: Oxnard, CA
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/12/2016 3:16:11 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:


I think that choice argument is over-rated and needs to be examined for reality.

A variety of financial and/or personal circumstances may make going to school away from nearby choices impractical/impossible.



Right. Ohio University students had no choice but to attend Ohio University. It was their ONLY option.




Robert--That is a truly unimpressive comment/argument (especially re choice overall). I suppose that in the least possible way it responds to what I said.

Big surprise.




That's because your argument--like so many of your arguments--are based in nonsense. Ohio University admission is up. Way up. Ohio University applications are up. Way up. During all that time of increase, the athletic fee has been in place, unhidden from view. If this were a big deal, students would be raising hell about it but... crickets.

No one gives a sh*t but a small sampling of alumni with nothing better to worry about. If this becomes an issue, students and parents will raise hell about it until the school suffers, through reduced applications or reduced admissions or both. Then, the school will likely do something about it.

Until then, it's so much noise, spitting into the wind, idealistic BS. Funny thing is, I'm currently paying this fee and you're not, yet you're the one bitching about it.


Talking about cocksure...Also incapable of the smallest degree of nuance or empathy or consideration of broader circumstances...


Really think that various circumstances, such as financial (pure costs of room and board, etc, plus travel, etc) don't influence out of staters considering OHIO (as Mike Johnson posited) or in-state students? Perhaps an in-stater who opts for reasons of costs to attend a local school to which she could commute. Or perhaps attending near family for health or family relationship type reasons.

Or, you can 'not give a sh*t' about others.


Where's the band?!
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Robert Fox
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Location: Knoxville, TN
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/12/2016 8:10:11 AM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:


I think that choice argument is over-rated and needs to be examined for reality.

A variety of financial and/or personal circumstances may make going to school away from nearby choices impractical/impossible.



Right. Ohio University students had no choice but to attend Ohio University. It was their ONLY option.




Robert--That is a truly unimpressive comment/argument (especially re choice overall). I suppose that in the least possible way it responds to what I said.

Big surprise.




That's because your argument--like so many of your arguments--are based in nonsense. Ohio University admission is up. Way up. Ohio University applications are up. Way up. During all that time of increase, the athletic fee has been in place, unhidden from view. If this were a big deal, students would be raising hell about it but... crickets.

No one gives a sh*t but a small sampling of alumni with nothing better to worry about. If this becomes an issue, students and parents will raise hell about it until the school suffers, through reduced applications or reduced admissions or both. Then, the school will likely do something about it.

Until then, it's so much noise, spitting into the wind, idealistic BS. Funny thing is, I'm currently paying this fee and you're not, yet you're the one bitching about it.


Talking about cocksure...Also incapable of the smallest degree of nuance or empathy or consideration of broader circumstances...


Really think that various circumstances, such as financial (pure costs of room and board, etc, plus travel, etc) don't influence out of staters considering OHIO (as Mike Johnson posited) or in-state students? Perhaps an in-stater who opts for reasons of costs to attend a local school to which she could commute. Or perhaps attending near family for health or family relationship type reasons.

Or, you can 'not give a sh*t' about others.




And where are these phantoms, Monroe? Or would you prefer to keep them in the hypothetical, that way they can exist however or whenever you need them. If you're so sure they exist, and you're losing sleep over their welfare, I assume you'll right a check to the cover these students' portion of the athletic fee.

Your lack of knowing me and my motivations is astonishingly bad.
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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/12/2016 8:54:19 AM 
Jeff McKinney wrote:
Questions: What are student fees, and the percentage of athletic budgets covered by student fees, at:

NCAA Div II public universities
NCAA Div II private universities
NCAA Div III public universities
NCAA Div III private universities
NAIA Div I institutions
NAIA Div II institutions

How do these figures compare to NCAA Div I?


My guess is they are all over the board Jeff. At my alma mater, Muskingum, the student activity fee is $118 per semester.
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Robert Fox
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Location: Knoxville, TN
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/12/2016 10:00:24 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:

You are hardly the measure of good and bad arguments. Take a reality check on your ego.

Which of those three schools have the lowest sports fee? Why don't all the students apply and go there? Or are you telling me the students at Scripps all wanted to go elsewhere, but Ohio was their only choice. The poor darlings.


Not sure how my ego is involved. You presented a crap argument and I demonstrated why it was crap.


You don't have a clue what you're talking about, pal. Show me your good argument. So far, you've shown me nothing. Who the hell do you think you are?
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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/12/2016 11:22:15 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Jeff McKinney wrote:
Questions: What are student fees, and the percentage of athletic budgets covered by student fees, at:

NCAA Div II public universities
NCAA Div II private universities
NCAA Div III public universities
NCAA Div III private universities
NAIA Div I institutions
NAIA Div II institutions

How do these figures compare to NCAA Div I?


My guess is they are all over the board Jeff. At my alma mater, Muskingum, the student activity fee is $118 per semester.


What do you get for that activity fee Alan? Probably nothing.

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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/12/2016 12:05:15 PM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Uncle Wes wrote:


It's been sustainable at Ohio for decades Alan. Only in the last decade has it become become public knowledge that athletics at most D1 universities is largely paid for by student fees. It's the secret sauce of college athletics and the recipe was revealed. Students at the University of Idaho supported a move to FCS with costs cited and the president made the move. I think concerns about student fees are becoming a force to take seriously but I don't see it impacting Ohio.


You say this like nothing's changed and nothing will change. The college costs are spiraling. Student debt is a national issue. Woody Hayes made $43,000 a year in 1978. Today, sports coaches are the highest-paid public employees in every state. The D1 sports environment is rapidly changing with P5 autonomy, cost of attendance, cable cord-cutting, conference realignment and a slew of other factors changing the landscape every year.

Change is coming because the growth in costs is not sustainable.


Taking a 30 year view on this, go back to 1986 and a university still could gone out and built a 50,000 seat stadium, fill it and raise the revenue to be an elite athletics program. Back then that was the only advantage schools in the club had and they'd pull their weight by only scheduling each other if the stadium capacity was enough. Elite athletics today requires $100 million dollar budget and P5 membership. For the remainder of the schools to compete nationally they can make a strategic investment in a few sports while keeping mid major salaries and investment levels in other ones. Ohio made a strategic investment in Saul Phillips after a string of success following Groce and Christian. The X factor for a university that is non-P5 is the facilities. Temple had access to a pro stadium to host Penn State and Notre Dame last year. Memphis plays in a local NBA arena. Ohio with the IPF and Sook Center will have an edge recruiting for non-revenue sports against mid majors. Recruiting edges lead to conference championships that justify strategic investments.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/12/2016 12:41:29 PM 
Uncle Wes wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Jeff McKinney wrote:
Questions: What are student fees, and the percentage of athletic budgets covered by student fees, at:

NCAA Div II public universities
NCAA Div II private universities
NCAA Div III public universities
NCAA Div III private universities
NAIA Div I institutions
NAIA Div II institutions

How do these figures compare to NCAA Div I?


My guess is they are all over the board Jeff. At my alma mater, Muskingum, the student activity fee is $118 per semester.


What do you get for that activity fee Alan? Probably nothing.



Same access that you get at OU - sports, guest speakers, other public events.
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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/12/2016 2:27:07 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:

You are hardly the measure of good and bad arguments. Take a reality check on your ego.

Which of those three schools have the lowest sports fee? Why don't all the students apply and go there? Or are you telling me the students at Scripps all wanted to go elsewhere, but Ohio was their only choice. The poor darlings.


Not sure how my ego is involved. You presented a crap argument and I demonstrated why it was crap.


You don't have a clue what you're talking about, pal. Show me your good argument. So far, you've shown me nothing. Who the hell do you think you are?




Robert Fox--my man!

Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!


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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/12/2016 11:28:45 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:

You are hardly the measure of good and bad arguments. Take a reality check on your ego.

Which of those three schools have the lowest sports fee? Why don't all the students apply and go there? Or are you telling me the students at Scripps all wanted to go elsewhere, but Ohio was their only choice. The poor darlings.


Not sure how my ego is involved. You presented a crap argument and I demonstrated why it was crap.


You don't have a clue what you're talking about, pal. Show me your good argument. So far, you've shown me nothing. Who the hell do you think you are?


I'm just a guy on a message board with a better handle on his temper than you.

Suggeting that people can just go somewhere else and/or that attendance is up so the fee is no issue is a terrible argument.
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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/13/2016 2:03:59 AM 
Therefore, Robert Fox put it down!




Last Edited: 6/13/2016 2:04:26 AM by Monroe Slavin

Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!


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The Pets On The Go Collection of pet gear travel bags
The Holiday Tote Bigg Bagg Collection--over-sized, reversible, extra pockets; now love carrying packages as much as you love shopping!

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/13/2016 8:19:35 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:


I'm just a guy on a message board with a better handle on his temper than you.

Suggeting that people can just go somewhere else and/or that attendance is up so the fee is no issue is a terrible argument.


No. It's a terrible argument in your world only. Again, why is attendance up despite this terrible injustice? Could it be because the vast majority don't care? Of course it could. But you can't get over this fee, despite the fact that you don't pay it. By and large, the people who are actually paying the fee, don't seem to care.

Show me the large group of protesters and then I'll acknowledge your argument. Until then, it's a waste of time.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/13/2016 9:05:36 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:


I'm just a guy on a message board with a better handle on his temper than you.

Suggeting that people can just go somewhere else and/or that attendance is up so the fee is no issue is a terrible argument.


No. It's a terrible argument in your world only. Again, why is attendance up despite this terrible injustice? Could it be because the vast majority don't care? Of course it could. But you can't get over this fee, despite the fact that you don't pay it. By and large, the people who are actually paying the fee, don't seem to care.

Show me the large group of protesters and then I'll acknowledge your argument. Until then, it's a waste of time.


Enrollment is up for one reason and one reason only, the university has made a commitment to increase it through much more aggressive sales efforts. For whatever reason, parents and students across America are continually willing to go $29K in debt to get a college education at the same time the number of students being taught by full professors continues to decline. In the whole scheme of things the fee isn't that big a deal but as costs continue to escalate, I believe that one day it will be. For now, I continue to enjoy the entertainment at what amounts to rock bottom prices.
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Recovering Journalist
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Location: Cleveland, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/13/2016 9:20:21 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:


I'm just a guy on a message board with a better handle on his temper than you.

Suggeting that people can just go somewhere else and/or that attendance is up so the fee is no issue is a terrible argument.


No. It's a terrible argument in your world only. Again, why is attendance up despite this terrible injustice? Could it be because the vast majority don't care? Of course it could. But you can't get over this fee, despite the fact that you don't pay it. By and large, the people who are actually paying the fee, don't seem to care.

Show me the large group of protesters and then I'll acknowledge your argument. Until then, it's a waste of time.


I've never even said I'm against the fee. I've never called it an injustice. I've merely pointed out that you can count on athletic subsidies to be increasingly questioned by parents who pay the bills and articles like this one: http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2015/07/un...

There are many more where that came from. Costs keep rising and the playing field keeps getting more uneven. I think that significant change is on its way. You don't. No reason to get angry about it.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/13/2016 10:12:16 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:

I've never even said I'm against the fee. I've never called it an injustice. I've merely pointed out that you can count on athletic subsidies to be increasingly questioned by parents who pay the bills and articles like this one: http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2015/07/un...

There are many more where that came from. Costs keep rising and the playing field keeps getting more uneven. I think that significant change is on its way. You don't. No reason to get angry about it.


Then what are we debating? I suggested it's not a big problem (yet?), and you told me my argument was crap.

Costs do keep rising and the quality of education, especially with regard to preparing students for their futures, is questionable.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/13/2016 10:17:41 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:

Enrollment is up for one reason and one reason only, the university has made a commitment to increase it through much more aggressive sales efforts. For whatever reason, parents and students across America are continually willing to go $29K in debt to get a college education at the same time the number of students being taught by full professors continues to decline. In the whole scheme of things the fee isn't that big a deal but as costs continue to escalate, I believe that one day it will be. For now, I continue to enjoy the entertainment at what amounts to rock bottom prices.



Alan,
You've got a high degree of confidence in the university's sales appeal. I'm not convinced that's entirely true. In attributing cause for the increased enrollment and applications, I would look more to the campus, the town, the beauty, the academic reputation, the residential nature, etc. True, those things have been around for decades, but I think that "style" is in vogue with current prospective students. For whatever reason.
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/13/2016 12:23:21 PM 
425/year is not unreasonable. Ohio University is a beacon and focal point in the area with respect to athletics and cultural events, even if most students don't care about it. I would also hope that other cultural events are subsidized in that fee. Things such as the theater, musical and dance performance, films and lectures. I have an interest in those things more than athletics today because of my exposure to them in Athens. I always attended the Artist Series at Memorial Auditorium, the plays at Kanter Hall and classic films at Siegfried Hall.
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Recovering Journalist
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Location: Cleveland, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/13/2016 1:18:47 PM 
giacomo wrote:
425/year is not unreasonable. Ohio University is a beacon and focal point in the area with respect to athletics and cultural events, even if most students don't care about it. I would also hope that other cultural events are subsidized in that fee. Things such as the theater, musical and dance performance, films and lectures. I have an interest in those things more than athletics today because of my exposure to them in Athens. I always attended the Artist Series at Memorial Auditorium, the plays at Kanter Hall and classic films at Siegfried Hall.


According to this, it's $704 a year that only supports athletics. Note that these are unofficial tallies that the reporters extrapolated with other data, but they make a decent case for the figure to be at or near that amount.

http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2015/07/oh...
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/13/2016 4:49:05 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:

Enrollment is up for one reason and one reason only, the university has made a commitment to increase it through much more aggressive sales efforts. For whatever reason, parents and students across America are continually willing to go $29K in debt to get a college education at the same time the number of students being taught by full professors continues to decline. In the whole scheme of things the fee isn't that big a deal but as costs continue to escalate, I believe that one day it will be. For now, I continue to enjoy the entertainment at what amounts to rock bottom prices.



Alan,
You've got a high degree of confidence in the university's sales appeal. I'm not convinced that's entirely true. In attributing cause for the increased enrollment and applications, I would look more to the campus, the town, the beauty, the academic reputation, the residential nature, etc. True, those things have been around for decades, but I think that "style" is in vogue with current prospective students. For whatever reason.



Lot's of companies have the style that is in vogue today. The ones that are successful are the ones who effectively tell the story. The number of admissions programs and personnel today compared to 30 years ago is staggering. And of course, the free pr we get from party school rankings and the media coverage of the fests and Halloween continues to attract scores of students.
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion (NT)
   Posted: 6/13/2016 6:14:32 PM 

Last Edited: 6/13/2016 6:15:44 PM by SBH
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion (NT)
   Posted: 6/13/2016 6:15:12 PM 
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder cited in MAC student fee discussion
   Posted: 6/13/2016 6:21:12 PM 
SBH wrote:



+1
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