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Topic:  Some thoughts...

Topic:  Some thoughts...
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Flomo-genized
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  Message Not Read  Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 2:47:41 PM 

The Jim Christian hire was a head scratcher to me from the start.  The only way it made any sense was if Schaus believed one of two things: (1) Christian's head coaching experience would allow us to pick up where we left off after the Sweet 16 run without missing a beat, or (2) Christian would settle in as a Solich-type hire and build a program of sustained excellence over the next 8-10 years.  Option #1 was always a long-shot given the differences in style and system between Groce and Christian.  Therefore, I can only conclude that Schaus must have been thinking along the lines of Option #2.

Given that, the Christian hire has to be viewed as a failure in my mind.  Not only did we undermine the potential of arguably the best returning nucleus of talent in program history in 2012-13, but we then get left high-and-dry two years later (to the day) with half of our roster in flux.  This is, simply, the worst possible outcome (although perhaps it's one we should have seen coming considering that Christian never bothered to update his Twitter account to reflect his new job after leaving TCU).

All that having been said, I've had mixed feelings about Christian over the last couple days.  On the one hand, I do think he's a good coach.  And more importantly, the timing of this is horrible.  Not only are we likely to lose our most heralded recruit in the last twenty years (maybe more, depending on how highly rated Diante Flenorl was), but I fear that this entire recruiting class could disintegrate before our eyes.  If the two Juco wings are as talented as hoped, then Christian may very well bring one or both along with him to Chestnut Hill.  Meanwhile, I have to assume that Crute will reconsider his options as well.  Even if several of the recruits decide to stick things out, with six scholarships to fill for next year the timing couldn't be worse.  This could very well set the program back one to two years and derail much of the momentum we had from the Sweet 16 run.

On the other hand, count me firmly in the camp that, at some level, wanted Christian to leave after the events of the last few days.  This move reeks of dishonesty and a lack of integrity.  Christian was one to two years away from getting fired at TCU.  We were his lifeline.  To turn around and screw us over like this after all the talk about program fit and wanting to build something special here is, in my mind, unconscionable.  He owed us either (1) a deep NCAA tournament run, or (2) four to five years of winning basketball, minimum, before jumping to his next job.    

Call me old-fashioned, but I don't think the potential pay raise justifies this on an ethical level under the circumstances.  If I sign a five-year contract (a fact that distinguishes Christian from most employees who jump to a new job), I do not move after year two, especially if it is going to put my former employer in a huge bind.  That is doubly true if my employer in many ways helped salvage my career by saving me from a sinking ship.  If he had done the job he was hired to do here, he would have had plenty of future opportunities as good as or better than BC.  I realize that sleezeballs are the norm in the college coaching profession, but given the context this move is particularly difficult to defend.  I couldn't fault Groce for moving on, as he'd given us a Sweet 16 which is all we could have ever asked for.  Aside from lucking his way into a split of a conference title (thanks to Alex Abreu's untimely arrest), Jim Christian achieved very little here.  I'll continue to wish John Groce nothing but the best, but won't shed a tear if BC cans Jim Christian's ass after two losing seasons.

Moving forward, of the names tossed out so far Pat Kelsey and Chris Holtmann are probably the most likely contenders given Schaus' apparent preference for head coaching experience.  But both come with some question marks in my mind.  Holtmann's decision to leave the HC position at Gardner-Webb to become an assistant at Butler was quite odd.  Meanwhile, Kelsey abruptly quit coaching in 2011 and took a year off after his stint as an assistant at Xavier.  Neither decision is necessarily a disqualifier, but both are strange career moves that I'd want to investigate a little further if I were Schaus (especially in Holtmann's case). 

Overall, a very disappointing turn of events.  Hopefully it ends up working out for the best.

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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 2:49:55 PM 
Gawd..... I have missed you.


never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

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LuckySparrow
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 2:52:22 PM 
I've never understood why people didn't like the JC hiring right off the bat. Always seemed like a great fit for me - and he proved that it was, granted not for a very long time. 

I'm ready for JS to hit another HR with this next hire. 

 


What a day at the Convo.....Wow!

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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 2:56:53 PM 
Very well thought out post by Flomo here. Kind of what I have been thinking all along.
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 2:57:38 PM 
Good post.  I believe Schaus was shooting for #2, a Solich type hire. For that to be true, JC had to have made quite a case about wanting a long-term home in the MAC and at the mid-major level.  We got played, and the hire should be viewed as an abject failure from a program standpoint.



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Gill
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 2:58:29 PM 
As a part of Ohio University for over 40 years it is disappointing to me that we can not take the next step to greatness and MAC dominance. Athletics and academics are not out of balance in this conference.
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100%Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 3:00:49 PM 
LuckySparrow wrote:
I've never understood why people didn't like the JC hiring right off the bat. Always seemed like a great fit for me - and he proved that it was, granted not for a very long time. 

I'm ready for JS to hit another HR with this next hire. 

 


The delusional fans who thought we' make the NCAA tourney every year and Sweet 16 runs every 2-3 years because we did it once seem to be the ones who hated the JC hire.  Most of them never gave him a chance.  What he did, while he was here, was do a couple of things that Groce never could: win a MAC regular season (albeit shared) title and win on the road.  This year, although many scream it was a failure, I saw as a huge success.  Given the roster turnover and the injuries JC dealt with, I thought winning 25 games was pretty darn impressive with the depleted roster.

As was said in other threads, this isn't a destination job.  Thinking it is, in my humble opinion, is just as delusional as expecting "deep tourney runs" every year.  Duke doesn't even have deep tourney runs every year.
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cincybobcat99
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 3:02:36 PM 
Excellent thoughts!!! Some of my thought written much better. Thanks!
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perimeterpost
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 3:03:15 PM 
if this move happens two years from now its not as big of deal. As it stands now we've had no time to reap what we've sown and JC has made out like a bandit.

I guess this is what happens when a Kent State coach and a Miami AD sit down together.


MY STATE. MY TEAM.

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 3:08:38 PM 
Flomo you nailed it!  


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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genessee
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 3:13:26 PM 
Sure, he won on the road, but did pretty poorly at home.
IMO, if anyone is released from a scholarship, they should not be permitted to follow him to BC.

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Gallia Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 3:24:49 PM 
Ohio University will move on. The Ohio job is a great job and you better believe there will be some great candidates. There are some jobs in which winning will always be a challenge and that makes it a challenge to attracted a highly qualified candidate. You need only look to the rafters at the Convo to see a Winning tradition that goes back 50-60 years so that will not be a challenge. There are already top level assistants asking their head coaches to make a call to OU to put in a good word with the AD. Does anyone remember what Thad Matta told John Groce about the Ohio University job? I don't know the exact quote but when Groce ask Matta if he should go after the Ohio University job Matta ask him why he wouldn't go after it. He said Ohio University is a great job with a great facility and most importantly, that he can be successful there.

He was correct and still is!

Go Ohio!
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Paul Graham
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 3:28:31 PM 
YUUUP! Perfectly said
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LongDistancebobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 3:46:55 PM 
I can assure you JC is not taking any recruits with him to BC, not even Owens.
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bobcat2nc
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 3:53:08 PM 
Well thought out post by Flomo-genized.  I have some of same thoughts but not all.  

I did not mind the hire of JC and I think he did a decent job in the 2 years.  I maintain that if JG really thought the team he left would do the same thing the next year he would have stayed and that blaming JC for not taking that team further is partly misplaced blame.  Just my opinion.

The possibility of losing recruits and losing momentum is the biggest issue I have with JC leaving.

I find it hard to blame someone for moving up even if I don't agree with the timing.  But on the other hand, most gave JG a pass because of the timing of his departure.  Yeah I get that some say BC and Illinois are not the same thing...I guess that depends on your point of view.  Regardless we are talking about either the Big Ten-ACC.  If we pretend hard enough we still cannot make it so that being on the bottom of those conferences is less desirable than being on the top of the MAC if you are a coach.

Don't get me wrong...I dislike that JC is leaving because of what it may do to the immediate future of Basketball.  I also disliked that JG left for the same reason.   I heard both coaches say they loved OHIO and that this was home for them.  
 
I am not trying to be argumentative and maybe I am naive but what is different now than before?  Is it the details behind the scenes that I don't know about?  Is it because the place JC is leaving for is not good enough to leave OHIO for?  

As I do not actually know either person I can only react to my perception of what has occurred without any idea about what went into their thoughts when they decided to leave for they must believe to be greener pastures.  Without speculation I can only come up with the fact that someone made them "an offer they could not refuse."  Who am I to judge when that level has been reached?

There are a handful of coaches out there that if they were selected as the next head coach I probably would have to renege on my season tickets but I cannot imagine that happening so I will be in my seat and cheering for the Bobcats next year just like I have since 1998. 

I will be looking forward to the spirited discourse on BA about coaching, effort, recruiting, Ozone, black seats, attendance, popcorn, funding, hanging scoreboard, officiating, missing Charlie, Hating Akron, wishing for better OOC schedule, and about all the other recurring themes no matter what happens.

GO BOBCATS











 
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A-townBound
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 4:03:14 PM 
LongDistancebobcat seems to have some serious insight into the life of JC...


Bleed Green and GO OHIO!!

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Mark Lembright '85
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 4:15:19 PM 
A-townBound wrote:
LongDistancebobcat seems to have some serious insight into the life of JC...


As does Doubledribble.....

Agree for the most part with what's been said but at this point I'm just focusing my attention and thoughts on what Schaus is doing and who the potential replacements could be.

IN SCHAUS I TRUST!!
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LongDistancebobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 4:40:20 PM 
A-townBound wrote:
LongDistancebobcat seems to have some serious insight into the life of JC...


That is true.  I'm a good friend of his who tries to help you guys out with information when I can.  I spoke with him and he told me he is not taking any recruits with him. I can also tell you that the whole BC thing came out of left field.  He honestly thought  OU  would be his last job.  He thinks very, very highly of Schaus and McDavis.  I am very disappointed at the level of vitriol leveled at a coach who gave his best to a school and when presented with an opportunity to help his family and his career, took it.  The time table, which many of you do not like, was all BC's.  As he said to your administration, name one coach in the MAC who wouldn't jump at this opportunity.
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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 4:46:53 PM 
LongDistancebobcat wrote:
A-townBound wrote:
LongDistancebobcat seems to have some serious insight into the life of JC...


That is true.  I'm a good friend of his who tries to help you guys out with information when I can.  I spoke with him and he told me he is not taking any recruits with him. I can also tell you that the whole BC thing came out of left field.  He honestly thought  OU  would be his last job.  He thinks very, very highly of Schaus and McDavis.  I am very disappointed at the level of vitriol leveled at a coach who gave his best to a school and when presented with an opportunity to help his family and his career, took it.  The time table, which many of you do not like, was all BC's.  As he said to your administration, name one coach in the MAC who wouldn't jump at this opportunity.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but regardless I also feel that the level of vitriol is ridiculous, and not at all dissimilar to some of the absurd things said when Groce left.

 
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brucecuth
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 4:47:00 PM 
LongDistancebobcat wrote:
A-townBound wrote:
LongDistancebobcat seems to have some serious insight into the life of JC...


That is true.  I'm a good friend of his who tries to help you guys out with information when I can.  I spoke with him and he told me he is not taking any recruits with him. I can also tell you that the whole BC thing came out of left field.  He honestly thought  OU  would be his last job.  He thinks very, very highly of Schaus and McDavis.  I am very disappointed at the level of vitriol leveled at a coach who gave his best to a school and when presented with an opportunity to help his family and his career, took it.  The time table, which many of you do not like, was all BC's.  As he said to your administration, name one coach in the MAC who wouldn't jump at this opportunity.


THEN WHY THE HELL ISN'T HE SAYING SO??????  WHY NOT HOLD A PRESS CONFERENCE IN ATHENS TOMORROW AT 10 TO SAY ALL THESE THINGS?   OR AT LEAST RELEASE A STATEMENT?????   IF HE SINCERELY MEANS THIS, I WOULD HAVE RELEASED A STATEMENT BEFORE ADDRESSING MEDIA IN BOSTON.. 
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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 4:51:14 PM 
Flomo--Generally good thoughts.  But some of your point of view seems to be about how you feel about the hiring of JC based on what happened over the last few days. That's a little unfair.  His hiring has to be viewed mostly from the circumstances of when he was hired.       Then, it's fair to evaluate JC's departure on its own.

I get the 'integrity' argument about 'he signed a five year contract.'  But it's also fair to state that in sports (pro, college) these contracts are somewhat 'signed to be broken.'  (Roughly comparable--Kareem forced Bucks to trade him (right?), was it Elway who made clear that he wouldn't play for Baltimore ?...LeBron stomps on CLE.  Not saying that these acts are proper..just that we shouldn't be surprised.)

Personally, I gotta admit that if someone made me a mega-offer to get me to come over, I'd consider it in almost all circumstances.  If it really happened, I think that most here would.


Now, how do we make sure that our next hire doesn't use us as a stepping stone in the way that Groce and JC did?  Is there much we can do to stop that?

Last Edited: 4/3/2014 4:53:22 PM by Monroe Slavin


Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!


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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 4:52:16 PM 
LongDistancebobcat wrote:
A-townBound wrote:
LongDistancebobcat seems to have some serious insight into the life of JC...


That is true.  I'm a good friend of his who tries to help you guys out with information when I can.  I spoke with him and he told me he is not taking any recruits with him. I can also tell you that the whole BC thing came out of left field.  He honestly thought  OU  would be his last job.  He thinks very, very highly of Schaus and McDavis.  I am very disappointed at the level of vitriol leveled at a coach who gave his best to a school and when presented with an opportunity to help his family and his career, took it.  The time table, which many of you do not like, was all BC's.  As he said to your administration, name one coach in the MAC who wouldn't jump at this opportunity.

I believe this, and I'm disappointed he's going but I don't blame him for doing so. I think a lot of the vitriol is based on the hurt feelings and raw emotion that come with an unpleasant surprise. I suspect it will fade with time.
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Jerry86
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 4:52:23 PM 
LongDistancebobcat wrote:
A-townBound wrote:
LongDistancebobcat seems to have some serious insight into the life of JC...


That is true.  I'm a good friend of his who tries to help you guys out with information when I can.  I spoke with him and he told me he is not taking any recruits with him. I can also tell you that the whole BC thing came out of left field.  He honestly thought  OU  would be his last job.  He thinks very, very highly of Schaus and McDavis.  I am very disappointed at the level of vitriol leveled at a coach who gave his best to a school and when presented with an opportunity to help his family and his career, took it.  The time table, which many of you do not like, was all BC's.  As he said to your administration, name one coach in the MAC who wouldn't jump at this opportunity.


This is nearly identical to what I thought was happening and posted a short time ago ... he had 2 good years here, nothing spectacular. We made NIT and CIT in 2 years. Was he content with that? I doubt it. He aspired to go further here. But after a few potential hires don't express interest in BC and his phone rings ... uhhh, he has to listen to the other end. And when the ball starts rolling .... it's all but impossible to turn down such a job. As much as we all love Ohio if we're honest we have to agree that BC is a step up. The ACC and MAC have nothing in common. We're a one bid league .... ACC will get multiple bids year in and year out.  I wish him well (although I really wish he were still here in Athens).
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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 4:54:44 PM 
FLOMO!


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some thoughts...
   Posted: 4/3/2014 4:54:51 PM 
LongDistancebobcat wrote:
A-townBound wrote:
LongDistancebobcat seems to have some serious insight into the life of JC...


That is true.  I'm a good friend of his who tries to help you guys out with information when I can.  I spoke with him and he told me he is not taking any recruits with him. I can also tell you that the whole BC thing came out of left field.  He honestly thought  OU  would be his last job.  He thinks very, very highly of Schaus and McDavis.  I am very disappointed at the level of vitriol leveled at a coach who gave his best to a school and when presented with an opportunity to help his family and his career, took it.  The time table, which many of you do not like, was all BC's.  As he said to your administration, name one coach in the MAC who wouldn't jump at this opportunity.


Keith Dambrot.
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