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Topic:  RE: OT - Student Fees

Topic:  RE: OT - Student Fees
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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/2/2015 4:31:30 PM 
D.A. wrote:
colobobcat66 wrote:
Ah, the good ole days when I was making 90 cents an hour teaching a lab class at Ohio. And $140 a semester for room and twice that for board.

Those numbers are not particularly relevant today, but why in the world have education costs skyrocketed so much?


The taxpayers of the State of Ohio used to offset over half the costs of running the university. (referred to as State Share of Instruction) They now offset less than 30%. Instead of the taxpayers paying those costs, the actual students/families of those attending school are responsible for more of the share.

If you are a conservative you like that the consumer is paying a higher percentage of the cost (the latter), and if you are a progressive you like the taxpayers paying more of the cost. (the former)

This is a link to a slide deck from 2013 on the topic: https://www.ohio.edu/finance/bpa/upload/Subsidy-Presentat...

And here is the 2015 budget book, with revenue breakdown on page 13: https://www.ohio.edu/finance/bpa/upload/fy15_budget_book-...

So let's make the math easy: in 2015, 25% of the revenue for the University will be derived from taxpayers (listed as State Appropriations in the table), or $177MM. So going back to the good ole days, $354MM would have come from the state. So, the students now pay $177MM that we didn't use to have to, of course adjusted for inflation, etc. Pure speculation on my part, but I am guessing the budget to run the entire university in the late '80's when I was in Athens wasn't $177MM total.

Hence, it is more expensive for students today than yesterday, and less expensive to taxpayers with no college students in their homes.


Very good data. Note, this conservative has supported every public expenditure for education for which I have had the opportunity. That being said, I am getting really weary of public spending in the name of education/research that I would put down as waste, fraud and abuse. You point out that the load for taxpayers without students in their homes is less. Please remember this group still shoulders the primary load of primary and secondary education through property taxes. In my area Universities have been spending/building/expanding like crazy while secondary schools still have rented trailers as expansion and dirt tracks for the upcoming running season. Costs of University education and spending by Universities are both .......

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/2/2015 4:42:09 PM 
Here's another way to look at it. My senior year at Muskingum, 1976-1977, the total cost for me to go was 12.5% of our family's income. Today my family would have to make $323,100 to be at that same percentage.
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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/2/2015 5:42:08 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Here's another way to look at it. My senior year at Muskingum, 1976-1977, the total cost for me to go was 12.5% of our family's income. Today my family would have to make $323,100 to be at that same percentage.


And sooo many believe it is smart to borrow their way. How many of these loans would be "good" in a normal business environment? One year to the next all that is required to receive additional loans is an affirmative response to "Do you want more?."

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/2/2015 7:44:37 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Here's another way to look at it. My senior year at Muskingum, 1976-1977, the total cost for me to go was 12.5% of our family's income. Today my family would have to make $323,100 to be at that same percentage.


And sooo many believe it is smart to borrow their way. How many of these loans would be "good" in a normal business environment? One year to the next all that is required to receive additional loans is an affirmative response to "Do you want more?."



But who do you think is promoting these loans under the guise of "financial aid?" It's criminal what colleges and universities are doing.
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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/2/2015 7:47:41 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Here's another way to look at it. My senior year at Muskingum, 1976-1977, the total cost for me to go was 12.5% of our family's income. Today my family would have to make $323,100 to be at that same percentage.


And sooo many believe it is smart to borrow their way. How many of these loans would be "good" in a normal business environment? One year to the next all that is required to receive additional loans is an affirmative response to "Do you want more?."



But who do you think is promoting these loans under the guise of "financial aid?" It's criminal what colleges and universities are doing.



+1

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/2/2015 7:51:01 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Here's another way to look at it. My senior year at Muskingum, 1976-1977, the total cost for me to go was 12.5% of our family's income. Today my family would have to make $323,100 to be at that same percentage.


And sooo many believe it is smart to borrow their way. How many of these loans would be "good" in a normal business environment? One year to the next all that is required to receive additional loans is an affirmative response to "Do you want more?."



But who do you think is promoting these loans under the guise of "financial aid?" It's criminal what colleges and universities are doing.



+1



Let me take it a step further. Within 2 months of graduation, those same folks get an opportunity to sign up for an official university credit card. And finally, groups of clueless trustees fed a bunch of whitewashed craps have continually voted to raise tuition and create new deans of everything including OZ.

Last Edited: 12/2/2015 8:37:45 PM by Alan Swank
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/2/2015 9:10:32 PM 
What's 100k in student loan debt when the Federal Government is pushing 19 trillion in debt?

I've seen crazier things happen.

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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/2/2015 9:32:53 PM 
The Optimist wrote:
What's 100k in student loan debt when the Federal Government is pushing 19 trillion in debt?


Unless you would actually like to retire one day.

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 4:44:15 AM 
Bcat2 wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
What's 100k in student loan debt when the Federal Government is pushing 19 trillion in debt?


Unless you would actually like to retire one day.



But won't all these kids get social security from the Federal Government?

I've seen crazier things happen.

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 7:01:39 AM 
A big reason for student debt seems to be the "college experience" a student wants.
My niece went to a Community College for 2 years.
Then she transfered her credits to a local State University close to home and graduated pretty much debt free.

Had she gone away to college for 4 years the situation would have been very different.

She majored in Criminal Justice which is offered in pretty much every State school around here.

Going to a local Stae University may not be an option,depending on your major.
But there are ways to lower your college costs and reduce debt.
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 7:17:07 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
A big reason for student debt seems to be the "college experience" a student wants.
My niece went to a Community College for 2 years.
Then she transfered her credits to a local State University close to home and graduated pretty much debt free.

Had she gone away to college for 4 years the situation would have been very different.

She majored in Criminal Justice which is offered in pretty much every State school around here.

Going to a local Stae University may not be an option,depending on your major.
But there are ways to lower your college costs and reduce debt.




Great example.

The "college experience" is the only way you can justify taking on any debt to go to these four year colleges for pretty much any degree, let alone some of these fluff majors. When you accept that, it becomes obvious why student fees to support things like athletics are necessary. Ohio University is selling the college experience. The whole package. If it was solely about education, everyone would go to a community college.

Last Edited: 12/3/2015 7:21:32 AM by The Optimist

I've seen crazier things happen.

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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 7:34:54 AM 
The Optimist wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
What's 100k in student loan debt when the Federal Government is pushing 19 trillion in debt?


Unless you would actually like to retire one day.



But won't all these kids get social security from the Federal Government?


Yes, but, the healthiest Defined Benefit Plans rely on well invested capital and a strong, ever broadening base of contributors which together secure an ongoing lifetime benefit to plan recipients. When those in charge of the plan mismanage the investment capital or allow benefits to recipients to become out of balance with new contributions to the plan you have a train wreck. Now of the key elements described above which exist with Social Security; investment capital providing a real return or a broadening base of contributors in overwhelming numbers to plan recipients? For those still contributing to Social Security, your reality is; work longer, contribute more, expect less. If you are in your twenties I am sorry for the mess my generation is turning over to you. Some things you will need to get right on; the crushing debt and a government that exists to create new entitlements. Was it Socrates that described Democracy as a perversion of Constitutional Government?

Last Edited: 12/3/2015 8:00:23 AM by Bcat2

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 7:59:13 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
A big reason for student debt seems to be the "college experience" a student wants.
My niece went to a Community College for 2 years.
Then she transfered her credits to a local State University close to home and graduated pretty much debt free.

Had she gone away to college for 4 years the situation would have been very different.

She majored in Criminal Justice which is offered in pretty much every State school around here.

Going to a local Stae University may not be an option,depending on your major.
But there are ways to lower your college costs and reduce debt.



My son through; scholarships and by incurring obligations after graduation and by pushing countless carts at Wal Mart and with mom buying a meal plan every term graduated in four years and one summer without debt. His "College Experience" well he is pretty much glad to be done with it. Now working for money he can keep with extra from Army Reserve drill pay he is happier in his "Life Experience."

Last Edited: 12/3/2015 8:28:20 AM by Bcat2

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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bobcat695
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 8:33:29 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
A big reason for student debt seems to be the "college experience" a student wants.
My niece went to a Community College for 2 years.
Then she transfered her credits to a local State University close to home and graduated pretty much debt free.

Had she gone away to college for 4 years the situation would have been very different.

She majored in Criminal Justice which is offered in pretty much every State school around here.

Going to a local Stae University may not be an option,depending on your major.
But there are ways to lower your college costs and reduce debt.




I think this is a huge factor in the increasing costs. There are so many more amenities than when I attended just 20 years ago. The cost has more than doubled. Some of the increase is normal inflation, some of it is the extras we didn't have.

Think about the features you have in your car now vs. the one you had in 1990. The things we now consider basic necessities used to be extreme luxuries. Technology is expensive, and there are few places that embrace technology more than universities.

My cable bill is $200/mo, my cell phone bill is $250/mo., and the average price of a new car is $30,000. I compare those two current bills to my first house purchased in 1997, which only had a $450/mo. mortgage. With normal inflation, everything doubles in price every 20-25 years. Add in the luxury items and it's easy to see how the cost of college continues to rise. Until the general student population starts looking for cheaper alternatives, there is no incentive for universities like Ohio to reduce their price.

"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 10:30:18 AM 
You know, low cost student loans are a great idea and it's great that they are accessible, but I think that often seem to give the Universities the green light to raise tuition more quickly because they know it's so easy to find the money. Not easy to pay it back, but easy to find it.
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Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 11:10:28 AM 
Tangent:

There are ways to have the college experience, not resort to a community college education and get out of a state university owing just a modest amount of money. It takes forethought and sacrifice.

I made it through 3 1/3 years in Athens with less than $10,000 in loans without working a job, without money from my parents and just a modest amount of scholarship money. It meant not spending every night in a bar or having a car in Athens and finding ways to get textbooks through the library system without paying for them and finding every single thing in Athens that's free to do. It meant not having a credit card that tempted me to spend. Walking on brick streets talking about a book I just read with someone had to become entertainment. It meant loading up on 22 hours of classes every quarter and not switching a major. It's not easy, but it can be done. Get prerequisites out of the way during high school through post-secondary. Don't dawdle your first two years deciding what you want to do. Find something you love and dive head-first into it. (At some point we conflated young people "finding themselves" [a noble pursuit] and kids being indecisive, as if a path will show itself as a bright blinding light in the emblem of their chosen field as they walk across the Richland bridge.)

People roll their eyes at it, but know what you want to do and how you want to do it before you ever step on campus and you can be debt-free just a couple years after you graduate. It just takes a plan and some discipline. The college experience wasn't restricted by it, it enhanced it. I would've missed so many wonderful things in Athens if I'd had access to shinier, entrancing objects and quicker gratification.

I'm adamant about this because I'm scared we'll overreact to the massive amount of debt students carry these days too harshly and go to a for-profit model. I know what I was before I got to Athens and how my mind was reconfigured and remodeled in the most wonderful sort of way because Ohio was a university and not a place I got a diploma. So I worry we'll amputate all these great things about places like Ohio because of a few malignancies. Universities can get leaner. Students can be more decisive and smarter with money. But to say a couple hundred dollars for access to Ping and Division I college football games is just TOO MUCH? It's what makes a university a university.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 11:30:09 AM 
Brian Smith wrote:
Tangent:

There are ways to have the college experience, not resort to a community college education and get out of a state university owing just a modest amount of money. It takes forethought and sacrifice.

I made it through 3 1/3 years in Athens with less than $10,000 in loans without working a job, without money from my parents and just a modest amount of scholarship money. It meant not spending every night in a bar or having a car in Athens and finding ways to get textbooks through the library system without paying for them and finding every single thing in Athens that's free to do. It meant not having a credit card that tempted me to spend. Walking on brick streets talking about a book I just read with someone had to become entertainment. It meant loading up on 22 hours of classes every quarter and not switching a major. It's not easy, but it can be done. Get prerequisites out of the way during high school through post-secondary. Don't dawdle your first two years deciding what you want to do. Find something you love and dive head-first into it. (At some point we conflated young people "finding themselves" [a noble pursuit] and kids being indecisive, as if a path will show itself as a bright blinding light in the emblem of their chosen field as they walk across the Richland bridge.)

People roll their eyes at it, but know what you want to do and how you want to do it before you ever step on campus and you can be debt-free just a couple years after you graduate. It just takes a plan and some discipline. The college experience wasn't restricted by it, it enhanced it. I would've missed so many wonderful things in Athens if I'd had access to shinier, entrancing objects and quicker gratification.

I'm adamant about this because I'm scared we'll overreact to the massive amount of debt students carry these days too harshly and go to a for-profit model. I know what I was before I got to Athens and how my mind was reconfigured and remodeled in the most wonderful sort of way because Ohio was a university and not a place I got a diploma. So I worry we'll amputate all these great things about places like Ohio because of a few malignancies. Universities can get leaner. Students can be more decisive and smarter with money. But to say a couple hundred dollars for access to Ping and Division I college football games is just TOO MUCH? It's what makes a university a university.



My question is how long ago did you do this? And congrats that is great
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Kinggeorge4
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 11:33:01 AM 
You should see some of the cars these poor kids drive to school. Most I cannot afford. Walk through the parking lots, it is amazing. The items demanded by some students help drive costs too. We just installed a 90" tv in a study room for student projects. Seems rather excessive to me.

GO BOBCATS
GEORGE

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Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 11:41:44 AM 
I graduated in fall 2006 and I realize that number would be closer to 20,000 now, but I wasn't trying to pat myself on the back. It's more to show that a student entering college right now who does get a little help from their parents, does earn a little scholarship money and does work a part-time job and has a plan can do it. I feel like we've enabled college debt by excusing it as inevitable. How about we instead turn kids into entrepreneurs of themselves and figure out a way to do it without screwing up their financial situation for the next 30 years, postponing buying a house, having a child, planning a retirement?

There's so many ways to attack the student debt problem, from all sides — personal responsibility, keeping costs down, dedicating more political and social will towards funding education, but everyone wants to attack from one side and when they don't get their way they stop trying. I dread that the only workable solution we'll end up with is a sterile, regimented, community college system that takes everything not able to be measured or tested out of a college education.

Last Edited: 12/3/2015 11:42:44 AM by Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 12:50:17 PM 
Here's a chart of the resources spent on athletic subsidies at public Ohio universities. I'm sorry, but this is just insane. My hunch is that you'll see the state step in and mandate a cap..say no more than a third of the AD budget.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a323/JT_Production/ueet...
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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 1:04:49 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
OUPride wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:



Used to be that,at a number of Universities,science and engineering majors had to take "basic" core courses in English and History.They then had the option of substituting Technical Electives for other "core" classes.
Most science and engineering students felt their tuition dollars were better spent on classes related to their major.
When Liberal Arts classes started to suffer,core courses became mandatory.

I also find it interesting that a number of people feel that college students need a "classical education" to be "well rounded".
Yet there is no push to have a the same number of "core" math and science classes for other majors.






I don't know about that. I was a history major, and my core requirements included math (15 quarter hours at a higher level series than required of business majors) along with natural and biological sciences (I believe 25 quarter hours total) and foreign language (20 hours). I never complained about any of it.

In my opinion, it was the business and journalism majors that lived in a little bubble from which they were rarely forced to venture out.



Did not know that about History majors.
Was basing my comment on Business,Communiucations,Early Education and Fine Arts
Majors.



Yes, at Ohio University anyone in the College of Arts and Sciences is required to take a certain number of math and science classes. It doesn't matter if your major is Classics and World Religions.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012
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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 1:29:26 PM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
You know, low cost student loans are a great idea and it's great that they are accessible, but I think that often seem to give the Universities the green light to raise tuition more quickly because they know it's so easy to find the money. Not easy to pay it back, but easy to find it.


Exactly right. I see this emerging as another bubble that needs to burst just like the housing market. The Gov is funding wreckless spending on college costs that is crippling young adults and has had a significantly negative impact on the economy. People in their 20s and 30s can't spend like they used to because of college debt. The cycle won't stop until the college debt is capped at a reasonable rate and price pressure is put on the colleges in a way that makes the young & dumb be forced to consider price more directly. Then colleges will be forced to cut back, and some won't survive after having to live with decades of wreckless spending of their own.

Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 1:47:20 PM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
You know, low cost student loans are a great idea and it's great that they are accessible, but I think that often seem to give the Universities the green light to raise tuition more quickly because they know it's so easy to find the money. Not easy to pay it back, but easy to find it.


Exactly right. I see this emerging as another bubble that needs to burst just like the housing market. The Gov is funding wreckless spending on college costs that is crippling young adults and has had a significantly negative impact on the economy. People in their 20s and 30s can't spend like they used to because of college debt. The cycle won't stop until the college debt is capped at a reasonable rate and price pressure is put on the colleges in a way that makes the young & dumb be forced to consider price more directly. Then colleges will be forced to cut back, and some won't survive after having to live with decades of wreckless spending of their own.


You need to break down where the increases are going. Since the 80s, the maximum amount for either Pell Grants or federally insured student loans has been stable to the inflation rate, so it's hard to argue that student loans are the primary driving force behind the trend in tuition increases well above inflation.

OTOH, the total amount being given out has grown exponentially, but this huge increase in outlays is not being sucked up by traditional four year universities. It's going to community colleges but mostly to for-profit and online schools--to places like Westgate and Phoenix and cosmetology schools, many of whom are not much more than rackets to rake in student loans. Those are the demons in the explosion of financial aid over the last fifteen years.

If you were to ask me the three primary catalysts for out-of-control tuition increases at non-profit 4-year colleges, public ones in particular, I would say they are huge cuts in state support, executive (not faculty) bloat and athletic subsidies.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 2:11:01 PM 
DelBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
OUPride wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:



Used to be that,at a number of Universities,science and engineering majors had to take "basic" core courses in English and History.They then had the option of substituting Technical Electives for other "core" classes.
Most science and engineering students felt their tuition dollars were better spent on classes related to their major.
When Liberal Arts classes started to suffer,core courses became mandatory.

I also find it interesting that a number of people feel that college students need a "classical education" to be "well rounded".
Yet there is no push to have a the same number of "core" math and science classes for other majors.






I don't know about that. I was a history major, and my core requirements included math (15 quarter hours at a higher level series than required of business majors) along with natural and biological sciences (I believe 25 quarter hours total) and foreign language (20 hours). I never complained about any of it.

In my opinion, it was the business and journalism majors that lived in a little bubble from which they were rarely forced to venture out.



Did not know that about History majors.
Was basing my comment on Business,Communiucations,Early Education and Fine Arts
Majors.



Yes, at Ohio University anyone in the College of Arts and Sciences is required to take a certain number of math and science classes. It doesn't matter if your major is Classics and World Religions.

I just wonder how the number of credit hours compares to the "core" classes students in technical majors have to take.

I know at FDU +/- 20 credit hours of the 128 credit hours needed for a Civil Engineering Tech. degree are "core" classes.
That doesn't include the technical writing classes also needed for a degree.
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bobcat695
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Student Fees
   Posted: 12/3/2015 2:32:11 PM 
A College of Business degree doesn't require a lot of math classes as prerequisites because many of the majors are basically concentrated math specialties. Accounting, Finance, Economics and MIS are all very heavily focused in math.

I didn't have to take a foreign language, but the technology and math components of STEM are present in much of the College of Business curriculum.

"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

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