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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  question
   Posted: 11/8/2012 11:47:31 AM 
Just got home from Athens a bit ago and have to get on the road again in a while.  So don't have time to read all recent bobcatattack posts and thus apologize if someone else has already posed the following question:

Q: When Ohio lines up to punt, why are there such wide spacings between the interior linemen?

Perhaps before the season began, the special teams coach concluded that such wide spacings would enable interior linemen to get down field faster and thus strengthen punt converage.  Whatever the reason, as the season as moved along and virtually every punt has Ohio - players, coaches, fans - holding their collective breath, I am genuinely puzzled that those wide spacings remain.  They give onrushing defenders an umimpeded 10-yard sprint.

To the three Ohio players providing the last line of protection and to our punter, the rushers must look like 7 oncoming, runaway locomotives.

Well, okay, a second question: Hasn't anyone on the coaching staff concluded that just maybe closing those spacings and forcing rushers to come in from the edges might be worth implementing?

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Casper71
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  Message Not Read  RE: question
   Posted: 11/8/2012 12:34:44 PM 
mike-obviously not!
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First Street Forever
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  Message Not Read  RE: question
   Posted: 11/8/2012 2:54:13 PM 
Mike Johnson wrote:
Hasn't anyone on the coaching staff concluded that just maybe closing those spacings and forcing rushers to come in from the edges might be worth implementing?


I think the general consensus on this topic is: The coaches are all powerful and knowing. If a mere mortal like yourself has the audacity to question their strategies, then you should be smoten, and smoten royally.




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Paul Graham
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  Message Not Read  RE: question
   Posted: 11/8/2012 3:35:29 PM 
Mike Johnson wrote:


Q: When Ohio lines up to punt, why are there such wide spacings between the interior linemen?



Some of us have been asking this question for months. Of course, I'm just a computer geek. What do I know about such complexities????!!!!

Last Edited: 11/8/2012 3:35:54 PM by Paul Graham
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: question
   Posted: 11/8/2012 3:37:31 PM 
First Street Forever wrote:
Mike Johnson wrote:
Hasn't anyone on the coaching staff concluded that just maybe closing those spacings and forcing rushers to come in from the edges might be worth implementing?


I think the general consensus on this topic is: The coaches are all powerful and knowing. If a mere mortal like yourself has the audacity to question their strategies, then you should be smoten, and smoten royally.



The second block came from the left side of their D.  I think they figured out that after the first block, Venham would go rugby and move to his right.  Nobody picked up the guy coming in off the edge.  It's a real lack of communication or planning or execution on the punt team.  If he's going rugby, make sure he has a clear path on that side.  Somebody coming from the other side shouldn't get there in time, assuming Venham doesn't lollygag in getting the punt off.

Last Edited: 11/8/2012 3:37:57 PM by Pataskala

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Pete Chouteau
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  Message Not Read  RE: question
   Posted: 11/8/2012 4:22:13 PM 
Been giving this thought most of the afternoon...

I do not know personnel well enough to know who is supposed to be on punt team and who isn't. Nor do I know the ins and outs of creating a formation.

I do wonder what the various injuries have done as far as first team / second team punt teamers. Are there guys in there that are playing out of position or filling in as a square peg in a round hole for lack of any other feasible pegs?

I do wonder if guys are covertly playing hurt because there is no replacement available given all the total losses the team has endured.

And I wonder if scheme change would be feasible in our compact schedule. Was punt team bad enough during the bye week to have made a commitment to schematic change? How would that have been fit into practice schedule? Given short weeks between Miami - EMU - BG, I don't think there is time to make that happen. I'm not sure if there's time to make it happen during a standard week. How much practice would a scheme change take in order to equal the efficiency of the current situation?

Sure, against BG, not a hell of a lot. But without the benefit of hindsight that things went horribly wrong yesterday, I honestly don't know if change can be made properly.
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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: question
   Posted: 11/8/2012 9:50:09 PM 
Pataskala wrote:
First Street Forever wrote:
Mike Johnson wrote:
Hasn't anyone on the coaching staff concluded that just maybe closing those spacings and forcing rushers to come in from the edges might be worth implementing?


I think the general consensus on this topic is: The coaches are all powerful and knowing. If a mere mortal like yourself has the audacity to question their strategies, then you should be smoten, and smoten royally.



The second block came from the left side of their D.  I think they figured out that after the first block, Venham would go rugby and move to his right.  Nobody picked up the guy coming in off the edge.  It's a real lack of communication or planning or execution on the punt team.  If he's going rugby, make sure he has a clear path on that side.  Somebody coming from the other side shouldn't get there in time, assuming Venham doesn't lollygag in getting the punt off.


Re the above-highlighted:  No.  1)  They knew they could block it since they've watched our game film.  Anyone who's seen our games on TV or webcast knew this was a disaster waiting to happen.  2) On our first kick, they had five (as in five) guys who came close to blocking the kick.  And, none of the five seem to have made a real effort for the block.  So, they knew they had us on the second kick.  Around me in the stands, everyone saw the five man firebreak on the first kick and predicted the 2nd was going to get blocked.

The obvious is obvious.


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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  Footnote
   Posted: 11/8/2012 10:34:14 PM 
Mike Johnson wrote:
Just got home from Athens a bit ago and have to get on the road again in a while.  So don't have time to read all recent bobcatattack posts and thus apologize if someone else has already posed the following question:

Q: When Ohio lines up to punt, why are there such wide spacings between the interior linemen?

Perhaps before the season began, the special teams coach concluded that such wide spacings would enable interior linemen to get down field faster and thus strengthen punt converage.  Whatever the reason, as the season as moved along and virtually every punt has Ohio - players, coaches, fans - holding their collective breath, I am genuinely puzzled that those wide spacings remain.  They give onrushing defenders an umimpeded 10-yard sprint.

To the three Ohio players providing the last line of protection and to our punter, the rushers must look like 7 oncoming, runaway locomotives.

Well, okay, a second question: Hasn't anyone on the coaching staff concluded that just maybe closing those spacings and forcing rushers to come in from the edges might be worth implementing?


Footnote: On exiting Peden I was walking with a pair of BG fans.  I asked, "Are you guys going to send a Thank You note to Ohio's punt team?"

They laughed and then one replied seriously, "We thought you would have Tettleton punt from the shotgun.  We were surprised that you kept sending out the punter."

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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D.A.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Footnote
   Posted: 11/9/2012 9:03:50 AM 
I believe the devil is in the details which were mentioned during the broadcast, and if you didn't catch it then here is the data: OHIO had only allowed 29 punt return yards in the nine games prior to the game.  Nice, admirable stat.

My assumption is that the special teams coaches have made a calculated risk in 2012 while employing the new scheme: let's risk a block here and there in the hopes of not giving up chunks of yards through the season.  The strategy appears to be to release every rusher at the line, let the three protectors provide a final line of defense and hope we get the kick off while pressuring the punt returner into mistakes or fair catches by pursuing the returner with all our down linemen.

Well anyone that has paid attention all season, starting with the Penn State game, will have seen that there have been significant rewards to the opposing teams that jailbreak our wall of three protectors, foregoing their coverage and entrusting their punt returner to catch the ball.  And with Jordan Thompson down, the guy who had to choose to block one of two guys in the week one blocked punt in Beaver that led to a short field touchdown, we now have only Eric Herman who has been a constant on the protection blocking wall all year.

Forgive me for being a horses ass, as I usually try to remain pretty level headed about our results and give the coaches the benefit of the doubt, but I am still mad as hell about what happened on Wednesday night, and feel like the results on Wednesday were far more preventable than those in the Miami loss.  Wednesday's performance was a waste, and the coaching staff needs to be held accountable because the blocks we have seen all season are a result of scheme, not effort.

When you have a former wrestler acting as your long snapper, who I believe has done a fine job all season, and a freshman punter, two inexperienced guys who could use a little seasoning, and you go nine weeks with precariously close and executed blocks almost every week, how do you not err on the side of caution and give these guys a little time to mature, buying them time to get the kicks off safely?  I just absolutely, completely do not get it, even analyzing the upside of why they implemented the scheme.

When Grant has been provided protection to execute a textbook style punt this season, instead of reverting to the abomination of the rugby, he has punted well all season.  The dude isn't Paul Hershey...yet, so just put some bodies on some guys at the line and stop giving up the effing short fields with botched and blocked punts.

We have easily had a dozen altered punts this season between muffed exchanges, failed rugby's and blocks due to pressure from the opposing team's pursuit this year, and I am certain we would not have given up a dozen long returns with our team speed providing coverage down field in a conventional punt coverage strategy, so do us all a damn favor coaches and give this grand experiment up!

This one is on Frank, and it pains me to say that.  I get Tyler's mistake during the Miami game and have put that loss aside, but this was completely preventable.  Epic fail beyond any loss we have seen in Frank's tenure, including the MACC last year.

Last Edited: 11/9/2012 9:16:45 AM by D.A.

The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

"This isn't just another walkover from the MAC." Kirk Herbstreit, another DB, on College Football Gameday
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Footnote
   Posted: 11/9/2012 9:18:22 AM 
There is nothing wrong with the scheme of our punt team, the problem is in the execution, and I personally do question our implementation of this scheme given that our snap to punt times appear to be so slow.  Given a proper and appropriate snap to kick time this scheme allows for maximum coverage (as evidence from the lack of return yards that our punt team has given up this year), and adaquate protection.  However, everything is dependent upon an appropriate snap to kick time of around 1.5 seconds.  If the snap-kick is executed in that amount of time, no mortal football player should be able to come off the end and arch around the "3-wisemen" (that's what I call them) to the Punter.  The 3-wisemen do not block out, and are taught to never block out in this as the timing of the kick should eliminate the block off the corner, and they are responsible for not allowing anyone to get a direct line up the middle.  The timing of this is obviously a problem so looking at anyone of the other 50 strategies out there for punt coverage would probably be a good idea.
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geekzer55
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  Message Not Read  : Footnote
   Posted: 11/9/2012 9:30:52 AM 
I prefer Occam's razor approach which would be most effective with the least skill...

GO BOBCATS!
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D.A.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Footnote
   Posted: 11/9/2012 9:53:08 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the scheme of our punt team, the problem is in the execution, and I personally do question our implementation of this scheme given that our snap to punt times appear to be so slow.  Given a proper and appropriate snap to kick time this scheme allows for maximum coverage (as evidence from the lack of return yards that our punt team has given up this year), and adaquate protection.  However, everything is dependent upon an appropriate snap to kick time of around 1.5 seconds.  If the snap-kick is executed in that amount of time, no mortal football player should be able to come off the end and arch around the "3-wisemen" (that's what I call them) to the Punter.  The 3-wisemen do not block out, and are taught to never block out in this as the timing of the kick should eliminate the block off the corner, and they are responsible for not allowing anyone to get a direct line up the middle.  The timing of this is obviously a problem so looking at anyone of the other 50 strategies out there for punt coverage would probably be a good idea.


So are you saying that in game situations, the snapper/punter combo is magically getting a second slower than in practice?  Or that the coaches don't have stop watches for use in practice to time the exchange?

I have a stop watch on my freaking phone.  If your exchange to kick is too slow, then employ a scheme that matches your timing, don't expect the punter/snapper to execute quicker than they are able.

And to your point, it the exchange is slow, wouldn't that allow for an additional second for our cover guys to get to their punt returner?

I'm not saying that the present scheme can't work, I am saying you need to fit your scheme to your abilities.

Signed, Still pissed in Massachusetts

Last Edited: 11/9/2012 9:54:47 AM by D.A.

The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

"This isn't just another walkover from the MAC." Kirk Herbstreit, another DB, on College Football Gameday
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Footnote
   Posted: 11/9/2012 10:26:56 AM 
D.A. wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the scheme of our punt team, the problem is in the execution, and I personally do question our implementation of this scheme given that our snap to punt times appear to be so slow.  Given a proper and appropriate snap to kick time this scheme allows for maximum coverage (as evidence from the lack of return yards that our punt team has given up this year), and adaquate protection.  However, everything is dependent upon an appropriate snap to kick time of around 1.5 seconds.  If the snap-kick is executed in that amount of time, no mortal football player should be able to come off the end and arch around the "3-wisemen" (that's what I call them) to the Punter.  The 3-wisemen do not block out, and are taught to never block out in this as the timing of the kick should eliminate the block off the corner, and they are responsible for not allowing anyone to get a direct line up the middle.  The timing of this is obviously a problem so looking at anyone of the other 50 strategies out there for punt coverage would probably be a good idea.


So are you saying that in game situations, the snapper/punter combo is magically getting a second slower than in practice?  Or that the coaches don't have stop watches for use in practice to time the exchange?

I have a stop watch on my freaking phone.  If your exchange to kick is too slow, then employ a scheme that matches your timing, don't expect the punter/snapper to execute quicker than they are able.

And to your point, it the exchange is slow, wouldn't that allow for an additional second for our cover guys to get to their punt returner?

I'm not saying that the present scheme can't work, I am saying you need to fit your scheme to your abilities.

Signed, Still pissed in Massachusetts


What I am stating is that some on here stated they timed the kicks at 2.1-2.3, one said 2.5.  If that is the case that is entirely too slow and should be blocked everytime if given a rush, even you could probably run 10yds unblocked in 2.5 seconds.  As for any magical slowness, or coaches timing at practice i cannot testify to those, but I can tell you that a punt needs to be 1.5 to 1.6 seconds, and we obviously were not getting that on Wednesday.

As for our coverage guys, our coverage has been outstanding, one of the best in the Nation, so no problems there, and a slow kick time actually benefits them, however when faced with a rush a slow kick equals a block.

And I agreed with you that the scheme needs to fit abilities, and I believe I stated that in my last sentence.
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Casper71
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  Message Not Read  RE: Footnote
   Posted: 11/9/2012 12:09:22 PM 
News Flash-if the time from snap to punt is that slow there is a word called ADJUST.  Put the blockers on the line, close the splits, have wide/fast gunners and punt the ball.  Damn, it is NOT that hard.  Teams do it week in and week out.  Who ever saw such a disappointing display of scheme and execution and lack of in game adjustment in the punt game as was seen Wed?
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Paul Graham
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  Message Not Read  RE: Footnote
   Posted: 11/9/2012 1:08:47 PM 
I absolutely agree with DA and others. If our punter/long snapper are too inexperienced, then we need to make adjustments for that. Better punt coverage is of course desired, however if the side-effect is several blocked punts and shanks then it's clearly not worth the gamble. Of course Wednesday took it to a whole new level, given that it cost us a shot at the MACC.

If you don't have a solid O-line, then you probably don't run the ball 30 times per game. And similarly, if you have a very green long snapper and punter than you probably shouldn't try and run a scheme that leaves no room for error.

The thing I REALLY don't like is that Frank indicated in his press conference that execution is the problem. That is BS. If he doesn't know what he and his staff did wrong, my fear is that we'll see our guys lining up in this formation in Muncie. Wow...wouldn't that be something.


Last Edited: 11/9/2012 1:10:04 PM by Paul Graham
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Footnote
   Posted: 11/9/2012 1:12:59 PM 
Outside of the coaches and the players themselves, I don't think we can say for sure if this is execution or scheme. We don't know what's going on to that degree.
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Paul Graham
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  Message Not Read  RE: Footnote
   Posted: 11/9/2012 1:58:03 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Outside of the coaches and the players themselves, I don't think we can say for sure if this is execution or scheme. We don't know what's going on to that degree.


Come on Robert, this is not rocket science. We all know this stuff pretty well, I trust the collective brain of BobcatNation.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Footnote
   Posted: 11/9/2012 2:21:36 PM 
I for one know nothing at all about this, so I have stayed out of the debate. Certainly something needs to be fixed, but I have no opinion or information about what that is, so to me, yes, it's rocket science.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Senior Fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Footnote
   Posted: 11/9/2012 5:40:55 PM 
Solution to kicking game:  NO MORE 3 AND OUTS.
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Footnote
   Posted: 11/9/2012 7:51:39 PM 
    I remember reading a few years ago about a high school coach who refused to punt. He had statistics (and a dominant offense and defense) backing up his theory that it was better to go for it on fourth down than to turn in over with a punt. 

Last Edited: 11/9/2012 7:53:48 PM by bobcatsquared
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RSBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Footnote
   Posted: 11/9/2012 8:55:44 PM 
L.C. wrote:
I for one know nothing at all about this, so I have stayed out of the debate. Certainly something needs to be fixed, but I have no opinion or information about what that is, so to me, yes, it's rocket science.


No need for Rocket Science here:

What we do, and have done, ALL SEASON, Does Not Work.

Therefore.......

DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. ANYTHING. I don't see how with even only one week of preparation for something different could possibly result in any worse execution than what we have now after Months of practice and preparation!!!!! 

Last Edited: 11/9/2012 8:58:22 PM by RSBobcat

RS Bobcat

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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Footnote
   Posted: 11/9/2012 11:59:06 PM 
RSBobcat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
I for one know nothing at all about this, so I have stayed out of the debate. Certainly something needs to be fixed, but I have no opinion or information about what that is, so to me, yes, it's rocket science.


No need for Rocket Science here:

What we do, and have done, ALL SEASON, Does Not Work.

Therefore.......

DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. ANYTHING. I don't see how with even only one week of preparation for something different could possibly result in any worse execution than what we have now after Months of practice and preparation!!!!! 


Help me here.  I'm on the road and my dictionary is not at hand.  What is it called when you do the same thing and expect different results?

Where's the band?!
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RSBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Footnote
   Posted: 11/10/2012 12:13:35 AM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
RSBobcat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
I for one know nothing at all about this, so I have stayed out of the debate. Certainly something needs to be fixed, but I have no opinion or information about what that is, so to me, yes, it's rocket science.


No need for Rocket Science here:

What we do, and have done, ALL SEASON, Does Not Work.

Therefore.......

DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. ANYTHING. I don't see how with even only one week of preparation for something different could possibly result in any worse execution than what we have now after Months of practice and preparation!!!!! 


Help me here.  I'm on the road and my dictionary is not at hand.  What is it called when you do the same thing and expect different results?


Politics?

RS Bobcat

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