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Topic:  My frustration with the offense explained

Topic:  My frustration with the offense explained
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/9/2013 10:10:18 AM 
Via handy dandy possession chart.

We had 12 meaningful offensive possessions (chart shows 15 with the INT return, and then the 2 clock kills at the end of each half). 5 (or 41.67%) went for fewer than 10 yards (so, 3 and out). Our total yardage in those 5 drives was -5 yards.

Point of frustration #1: WHY ARE SO MANY OF OUR DRIVES LESS EFFECTIVE THAN IMMEDIATELY PUNTING THE BALL BACK TO THE OTHER TEAM????

6 drives (or 50%) went for 50 yards or more. One was the first play of the game. So, we had essentially 5 sustained drives. The result of those 5 drives: touchdown, missed field goal, turnover on downs, field goal, field goal. One touchdown off a sustained drive.

Point of frustration #2: WHY DO WE HAVE SUCH A DIFFICULT TIME SCORING TOUCHDOWNS IN THE RED ZONE/ON THE GOAL LINE???? This isn't a new problem, and we don't have a great kicker now to patch over the shortcomings.



Good stuff for D: North Texas had 14 possessions, and the D got off the field in 3 or fewer plays 7 times. We only allowed 2 drives of 50 yards or more, and that was after we were up 2 touchdowns and NT was picking us apart underneath. If the offense had done it's job, the D could have been more aggressive there.
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/9/2013 11:30:02 AM 
I think a big part of your frustration is caused by small yardage on 1st down.  I haven't seen any stats (the NCAA doesn't keep that sort of thing) but it seems to me that a large majority of the time we get less than three yds on 1st down.  Then if we don't get at least five yds on 2nd down, we're looking at 3rd and long. 

As for the red zone issue, according to the NCAA we scored on 49 of 62 trips to the red zone last year (79%), and were tied for 77th in the country.  Our TD/FG ratio was just over 2:1 (33:16).  I don't know what the preferred ratio is, but it's probably 4:1 -- that's what most of the teams ahead of us were hitting. I think we tend to go a little conservative (more than usual) in the red zone, so that magnifies the need to get good yardage on 1st down.

EDIT:

Had a chance to look at the play-by-play over lunch.  Not counting the two plays at the end of the half and the kneel-down at the end of the game, vs. NT we had 28 sets of downs and got three yds or less on 1st down in 11 of them (39%) which isn't as bad as I imagined.  Of the 11, we wound up getting 1st downs on our own on five (45%) -- including Boykin's TD -- and got one by a penalty.  We were 3rd and more than 3 on seven of them (64%), converting once (the TD).  On the other hand, we got 4-6 yds on 1st down seven times (25%), converted four of those on our own (57%) and one by penalty.  We were third and more than 3 on four of them (57%), and converted none on our own (one by penalty). 

Last Edited: 9/9/2013 1:03:06 PM by Pataskala

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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/9/2013 12:22:59 PM 
I don't know whether it was play calling or if it came down from Frank and his influence in the play calling, but Saturday was the first time I felt like a 2002 Nebraska fan. This is supposed to be the year where the offense comes together and we put points on the board by the butt ton (this is a real unit of measurement by the way), yet we still run the same vanilla stuff over and over and over and over and over again.

Like I said, I don't know how much influence Frank has on the play calling or if Albin has free range to do whatever, it just looked very vanilla throughout. Ok, Ohio has evolved from the ground and pound of "QB under center option" to the ground and pound of the "QB in the shotgun read option." It's still the same.

Last Edited: 9/9/2013 12:23:18 PM by GoCats105
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Bobcatbob
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/9/2013 12:49:51 PM 
And if Marshall doesn't sit on that flanker screen for a pick six then they are just not paying attention.  For the love of God and the sake of my heart, STOP IT!
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Cats-22
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/9/2013 1:03:24 PM 
In the second half Ohio was moving the ball fine.  They only punted once, and two drives were cut short by interceptions.  Aside from that the three other drives went for at least 55 yards.

So I think the key is eliminating those INTs.  Unfortunately I only saw the end of the game -- what was the story on the three picks?
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/9/2013 1:09:22 PM 
It all starts up front. If the line is dominating, then everything works, and Albin is a genius. It they are being dominated, then nothing works, and he's a goat.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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MonroeClassmate
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/9/2013 5:19:10 PM 
L.C. wrote:
It all starts up front. If the line is dominating, then everything works, and Albin is a genius. It they are being dominated, then nothing works, and he's a goat.


LC upfront you may be right--but you cannot changethe talent because, bottom line,  you have the talent you have.  Do a little study and see how offen TT used to run (pre-2012)  TT running the ball zero times in Louisville and perhaps 2x against NT and you may as well move back under center and have two backs.  If Urban Meyer isn't affraid to have his "franchise" run run run than TT needs to have his choke collar removed too.  If he gets hurt because he is running than too bad as the game is football.  Keep the defenses honest and tuck the sucker at least 8x per game.  This is particularly critical in the red zone as I recall 2011 and TT waltzing into the endzone.
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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/9/2013 6:51:00 PM 
MonroeClassmate wrote:
L.C. wrote:
It all starts up front. If the line is dominating, then everything works, and Albin is a genius. It they are being dominated, then nothing works, and he's a goat.


LC upfront you may be right--but you cannot changethe talent because, bottom line,  you have the talent you have.  Do a little study and see how offen TT used to run (pre-2012)  TT running the ball zero times in Louisville and perhaps 2x against NT and you may as well move back under center and have two backs.  If Urban Meyer isn't affraid to have his "franchise" run run run than TT needs to have his choke collar removed too.  If he gets hurt because he is running than too bad as the game is football.  Keep the defenses honest and tuck the sucker at least 8x per game.  This is particularly critical in the red zone as I recall 2011 and TT waltzing into the endzone.


Sir Classmate. Right now, with a slew of weapons around TT he can be most effective as the point guard distributing the rock to others.  2013 is not 2011. Ohio will be more effective when TT is 100%, as in the bowl vs less than 100% as after Marshall last season.  Let us have TT healthy thru the season. 


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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/9/2013 8:26:46 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:
MonroeClassmate wrote:
L.C. wrote:
It all starts up front. If the line is dominating, then everything works, and Albin is a genius. It they are being dominated, then nothing works, and he's a goat.


LC upfront you may be right--but you cannot changethe talent because, bottom line,  you have the talent you have.  Do a little study and see how offen TT used to run (pre-2012)  TT running the ball zero times in Louisville and perhaps 2x against NT and you may as well move back under center and have two backs.  If Urban Meyer isn't affraid to have his "franchise" run run run than TT needs to have his choke collar removed too.  If he gets hurt because he is running than too bad as the game is football.  Keep the defenses honest and tuck the sucker at least 8x per game.  This is particularly critical in the red zone as I recall 2011 and TT waltzing into the endzone.


Sir Classmate. Right now, with a slew of weapons around TT he can be most effective as the point guard distributing the rock to others.  2013 is not 2011. Ohio will be more effective when TT is 100%, as in the bowl vs less than 100% as after Marshall last season.  Let us have TT healthy thru the season. 




Bull. TT is a good thrower, but not a rocket-armed slinger. We have weapons, and one of those weapons is his ability to take off and pick up yards. If we aren't using all our weapons, then shame on us.
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/9/2013 9:42:10 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:


Right now, with a slew of weapons around TT he can be most effective as the point guard distributing the rock to others.  2013 is not 2011.



What weapons do we have on this team that we did not have an equivalent of in 2011? Apart from Cochran and Boykin, does any offensive skill player look better than expected through 2 games? When you're down 4 with 5 minutes to go in the 4th quarter, what weapon should Tettleton look to?

In 2011, Tettleton was the spark in crunch time. It's not the same anymore. Is our QB flinching or are the coaches holding him back? I really don't know...I have some speculative thoughts, but that's it. Whatever it is, I'd really like to see it fixed soon. Like, this week. This team has been missing an identity for a year....we do a lot of things fair to good, but nothing great.
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Casper71
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/9/2013 10:23:00 PM 
Most frustrating part of the offense to me so far is the play of TT so far.  What did he have, four INT last year.  Almost there already this year.  And, as pointed out he is not running.  And, by the way, the first play TD to Cochran was thrown short and should have been an INT but Cochran made a good play to go over the top and win possession. And, seriously what is the deal with kicking the ball out of frustration?  Definitely no the stuff a fifth year QB should be showing.

All-in-all, I am hoping we are gradually opening up the offense.  We did use Patterson a lot more in game #2.  Hopefully, all the offense will all be in for Marshall, AP and then the MAC season.
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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/10/2013 3:38:37 AM 
It's fair to note that our line is developing--sophs at center and both guard spots last week.  I think we could be pretty monster on the O-line by the end f the year.

But the eyes do not lie.  Qb's gotta play more fearlessly.  No one wants him hurt but he's at his best..so much better..when he's bringing it.  I believe that Vick is eminently capable as a back-up.

But, the vanilla.  On too many first downs and third and shorts, we run the "nothing" play up the middle from the same formation.  No two back sets (hint: it means the D can't know for sure who will get a handoff).  Not eniough four wide out sets.  Not enough sprint options.  Not enough men in motion or shifting of personnel once at scrimmage.

The fake run to a pass (one instance: first play 75 yarder) helps...and is, in turn, helped by, a more imaginative run game.

And, of course, run the true hurry-up more often.

I think that we only had 7 yards of offense in the first quarter vs. N Texas apart from the first play TD.  If that happens against stupd cow,  it could get ugly fast.

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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/10/2013 12:28:31 PM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
MonroeClassmate wrote:
L.C. wrote:
It all starts up front. If the line is dominating, then everything works, and Albin is a genius. It they are being dominated, then nothing works, and he's a goat.


LC upfront you may be right--but you cannot changethe talent because, bottom line,  you have the talent you have.  Do a little study and see how offen TT used to run (pre-2012)  TT running the ball zero times in Louisville and perhaps 2x against NT and you may as well move back under center and have two backs.  If Urban Meyer isn't affraid to have his "franchise" run run run than TT needs to have his choke collar removed too.  If he gets hurt because he is running than too bad as the game is football.  Keep the defenses honest and tuck the sucker at least 8x per game.  This is particularly critical in the red zone as I recall 2011 and TT waltzing into the endzone.


Sir Classmate. Right now, with a slew of weapons around TT he can be most effective as the point guard distributing the rock to others.  2013 is not 2011. Ohio will be more effective when TT is 100%, as in the bowl vs less than 100% as after Marshall last season.  Let us have TT healthy thru the season. 




Bull. TT is a good thrower, but not a rocket-armed slinger. We have weapons, and one of those weapons is his ability to take off and pick up yards. If we aren't using all our weapons, then shame on us.


I agree, but we may see TT running more this weekend and as the season progresses.  We really need that in order to open up the offense.
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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/11/2013 9:49:40 AM 
Jeff McKinney wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
MonroeClassmate wrote:
L.C. wrote:
It all starts up front. If the line is dominating, then everything works, and Albin is a genius. It they are being dominated, then nothing works, and he's a goat.


LC upfront you may be right--but you cannot changethe talent because, bottom line,  you have the talent you have.  Do a little study and see how offen TT used to run (pre-2012)  TT running the ball zero times in Louisville and perhaps 2x against NT and you may as well move back under center and have two backs.  If Urban Meyer isn't affraid to have his "franchise" run run run than TT needs to have his choke collar removed too.  If he gets hurt because he is running than too bad as the game is football.  Keep the defenses honest and tuck the sucker at least 8x per game.  This is particularly critical in the red zone as I recall 2011 and TT waltzing into the endzone.


Sir Classmate. Right now, with a slew of weapons around TT he can be most effective as the point guard distributing the rock to others.  2013 is not 2011. Ohio will be more effective when TT is 100%, as in the bowl vs less than 100% as after Marshall last season.  Let us have TT healthy thru the season. 




Bull. TT is a good thrower, but not a rocket-armed slinger. We have weapons, and one of those weapons is his ability to take off and pick up yards. If we aren't using all our weapons, then shame on us.


I agree, but we may see TT running more this weekend and as the season progresses.  We really need that in order to open up the offense.


We will have to agree to disagree. Ohio has lots of fine athletes and the key is to get them the ball in space with room to create.  There was a time when TT on a read option was one of the best available plays.  With increased talent, OL, around TT and his own level of experience Ohio can have a better year without needing him taking hits on a regular basis.  Similarly I would hope BB achieve 1,000 yards, but, not the 1,600 of last year if Mr. Boykin can have 1,000 too.

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Paul Graham
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/11/2013 10:35:43 AM 
Bcat2 wrote:
Jeff McKinney wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
MonroeClassmate wrote:
L.C. wrote:
It all starts up front. If the line is dominating, then everything works, and Albin is a genius. It they are being dominated, then nothing works, and he's a goat.


LC upfront you may be right--but you cannot changethe talent because, bottom line, you have the talent you have. Do a little study and see how offen TT used to run (pre-2012) TT running the ball zero times in Louisville and perhaps 2x against NT and you may as well move back under center and have two backs. If Urban Meyer isn't affraid to have his "franchise" run run run than TT needs to have his choke collar removed too. If he gets hurt because he is running than too bad as the game is football. Keep the defenses honest and tuck the sucker at least 8x per game. This is particularly critical in the red zone as I recall 2011 and TT waltzing into the endzone.


Sir Classmate. Right now, with a slew of weapons around TT he can be most effective as the point guard distributing the rock to others. 2013 is not 2011. Ohio will be more effective when TT is 100%, as in the bowl vs less than 100% as after Marshall last season. Let us have TT healthy thru the season.




Bull. TT is a good thrower, but not a rocket-armed slinger. We have weapons, and one of those weapons is his ability to take off and pick up yards. If we aren't using all our weapons, then shame on us.


I agree, but we may see TT running more this weekend and as the season progresses. We really need that in order to open up the offense.


We will have to agree to disagree. Ohio has lots of fine athletes and the key is to get them the ball in space with room to create. There was a time when TT on a read option was one of the best available plays. With increased talent, OL, around TT and his own level of experience Ohio can have a better year without needing him taking hits on a regular basis. Similarly I would hope BB achieve 1,000 yards, but, not the 1,600 of last year if Mr. Boykin can have 1,000 too.


I'm not sure what team you are watching, but we don't have better offensive talent. Compare this team to the group that shredded Marshall two years ago. Harden, Brazill and Bates all scored in that first half. I would argue all three of those guys are more explosive athletes than the group we have now.

Also, TT is not a great passer...sorry. Just look at that TD pass to Cochran from last week. That was an ugly throw in every respect. Without the running aspect of his game he's an average or below average player. He needs to run if this team is going to be successful.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/11/2013 10:39:48 AM 
Paul:  Without creating another massive "quote", I agree with you.
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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/11/2013 11:46:20 AM 
It's true that the TD to Cochran was an underthrown ball that we're lucky was not picked off. I dug the play call, though. I've always said Tim Albin is a genius.
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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/11/2013 12:51:50 PM 
Paul Graham wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:


We will have to agree to disagree. Ohio has lots of fine athletes and the key is to get them the ball in space with room to create. There was a time when TT on a read option was one of the best available plays. With increased talent, OL, around TT and his own level of experience Ohio can have a better year without needing him taking hits on a regular basis. Similarly I would hope BB achieve 1,000 yards, but, not the 1,600 of last year if Mr. Boykin can have 1,000 too.


I'm not sure what team you are watching, but we don't have better offensive talent. Compare this team to the group that shredded Marshall two years ago. Harden, Brazill and Bates all scored in that first half. I would argue all three of those guys are more explosive athletes than the group we have now.

Also, TT is not a great passer...sorry. Just look at that TD pass to Cochran from last week. That was an ugly throw in every respect. Without the running aspect of his game he's an average or below average player. He needs to run if this team is going to be successful.


Paul. OK let us really look at the shredding of Marshall by Harden, Brazill and Bates in 2011. First of all props to the D for the six turnovers, four interceptions; two by Carrie and one by Hughes who return by the way. Also Carpenter's fumble recovery helped too. During one stretch the D created turnovers on five of six Herd drives.  Turns out Mr. Boykin ran for 135 and a TD, he also added 20 receiving. Harden helped with 42, rushing, 45 receiving and a very good 74 yard KO return.  Boykin 155 yards and a TD, Hardin 161 yards. This time around Ohio will have Boykin and that returning 1600 yard rusher BB.  LaVon caught 4 passes for 26 yards and 2 TDs, 2 returns for 14 yards. Bates added 85 receiving/returning with one TD. Eight receivers not named LaVon/Bates/Harden caught passes.  TT did a fine job getting 279 passing.  I do believe, given protection, TT and Donte, Chase, Matt, Talbert, Hill & Daz etc. can cover those numbers.  The difference will be Cato's development. At this point in 2011 he was green as grass and they still averaged >5 per play gaining 336 total.  Both teams are better. The key will be if Ohio can excel in all phases like 2011. 

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MonroeClassmate
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/11/2013 1:56:41 PM 
Please remember that the design of the offense especially the running plays calls for the option of the QB keeping the ball.  When that seldom happens it likely allows D's to focus elsewhere making it even more difficult for the OLine to open holes and the ball carrier to gain yards. 

If the offense has changed to a pro-style than the QB doesn't need to run.  I do not believe that the design of the offense has changed from 2011 to 2013 but what has changed is the number of carries by a fellow that made BIG plays with his feet, which opened up some wide open passes when having tucked it 3 or 4 times got the D to react to the run, he pulled up and had the choice of 2-3 wide open receivers.  It is missing these days.

Central Michigan and Northern Illinios are the gold standard for MAC resent-past football success.  On these talented teams the QB's never stopped running--and it made their teammates even more lethal.

Last Edited: 9/11/2013 1:58:59 PM by MonroeClassmate
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Paul Graham
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/11/2013 2:13:36 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:


Paul. OK let us really look at the shredding of Marshall by Harden, Brazill and Bates in 2011. First of all props to the D for the six turnovers, four interceptions; two by Carrie and one by Hughes who return by the way. Also Carpenter's fumble recovery helped too. During one stretch the D created turnovers on five of six Herd drives.  Turns out Mr. Boykin ran for 135 and a TD, he also added 20 receiving. Harden helped with 42, rushing, 45 receiving and a very good 74 yard KO return.  Boykin 155 yards and a TD, Hardin 161 yards. This time around Ohio will have Boykin and that returning 1600 yard rusher BB.  LaVon caught 4 passes for 26 yards and 2 TDs, 2 returns for 14 yards. Bates added 85 receiving/returning with one TD. Eight receivers not named LaVon/Bates/Harden caught passes.  TT did a fine job getting 279 passing.  I do believe, given protection, TT and Donte, Chase, Matt, Talbert, Hill & Daz etc. can cover those numbers.  The difference will be Cato's development. At this point in 2011 he was green as grass and they still averaged >5 per play gaining 336 total.  Both teams are better. The key will be if Ohio can excel in all phases like 2011. 


You're missing the point. Boykin is a great athlete but not a game-breaker type like guys we've had. Most of his yards in that Marshall game came in the second half when we went conservative. He barely played in the first half.

In general, what I'm saying is that we don't have the offensive weapons we've had in recent successful years. What we're missing is:

(1) A back that can catch the ball out of the backfield and turn it into big gains (Harden)

(2) An electric receiver with big time speed (Brazill)

(3) A QB that can beat you with his arm or his legs (Tettleton)

We do have two great backs (BB and Boykin) running behind a line that is still finding its groove. And some capable receivers...but no one in the class of Brazill, Price or even Dunlop. Cochran is getting better but is still pretty 1-dimensional.

The real frustration is that (3) is still an option for us but we seem to be choosing not to pursue it. We don't have the offensive firepower to not use Tyler as a running threat....and frankly the guy is a very good duel threat QB but not a very good pocket passer type.
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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/12/2013 12:48:39 AM 
Disagree about us not having the weapons.  And each recruiting class is a little better than the last.

I think that L.C. stated that the 2010 class turned out to be a little thin.  That is having an impact as we start the season.  But there's solid reason to believe in the future.

Oh--we'll need to replace Beau and Boykin next year.  The good news is that running back recruits gotta know that they can come make hay at OHIO.


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Paul Graham
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/12/2013 10:48:01 AM 
I'd say its more 2011...which didn't yield any offensive firepower other than Landon Smith who hasn't seen the field for quite some time.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: My frustration with the offense explained
   Posted: 9/12/2013 2:07:24 PM 
2010 was definitely thin. Most of the players from that class are gone. The only ones left are Carpenter, Atwell, Cochran, Grady, Ingol, and Mark Smith. They are contributors and role players, for the most part. The starter at SLB will always be from 2010 (Atwell, Grady, or if they start in a nickle set, Carpenter), and Cochran will start some games, too, with Dovell hurt. Kristoff was a preferred walkon that year, so if you include him, call it 2.5 starters for the 2010 class.

By contrast, 2011 was a good class. Starters from that class include Crutcher, Johnson, Lucas, McQueen, Powell, Russell, Purdum, and Wells. That makes 8 starters from the 2011 class, plus there are a couple of others that are special teams starters, Bass and Venham (a preferred walkon from that class). Others from 2011 are also contributing as role players, including Bass, Bennett, Macer, Davis, Vick, and Landon Smith.

I don't have hard data for this, but pulling numbers out of the air, I'd expect to see about 10 Senior starters, About 6 Juniors, maybe 4 Sophomores, and maybe 1 Redshirt Freshman. 2.5 starters from the Junior class is definitely low, and 8 from the Sophomores is definitely high.

Last Edited: 9/12/2013 3:22:23 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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