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Topic: It's the o-line people. (NT)

Topic: It's the o-line people. (NT)

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Corncat6
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It's the o-line people. (NT)

Posted: 11/20/2013 8:19:51 PM

Last Edited: 11/20/2013 8:21:11 PM by Corncat6

L.C.
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/20/2013 9:11:47 PM

It "could" have been a veteran line:
Prior R-Senior (401)
Lechner R-Senior (198)
Smith R-Junior (13)
Johnson R-Senior (34)
McGrath R-Senior (438)

Instead, often as not it was:
McQueen R-Soph (595)
Lucas R-Freshman (626)
Powell R-Soph (523)
Wood True-Freshman (241)
Watson R-Freshmen (279)

Plus:
Haser R-Soph (19)
Everhart R-Soph (71)
Curtis R-Soph (3)
Welter R-Soph (3)
Gibbons - R-Freshman (102)
Williams - R-Junior (6)

The numbers are the numbers of snaps prior to Kent. Add it up, the distribution is:
Seniors - 30.5%
Juniors - .5%
Sophomores - 34%
Freshmen 35%

As a comparison, last year the distribution was more what it looks like most years:
R-Seniors - 49%
R-Juniors - 46%
R-Soph - 1%
R-Fresh - 4%

Next year it will be all Juniors and Sophomores, and in 2015 it will be all very, very experienced Seniors and Juniors.

Last Edited: 11/20/2013 9:14:39 PM by L.C.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Casper71
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/20/2013 11:28:29 PM

Agree with you here L.C. you gotta use RS Sr linemen in college football nowadays or you are toast. i bet a review of the D-line would show the same thing. We just have too many guys that really were not ready to play in the trenches this year.

And thanks for clarifying the punting information...shows there are all kinds of "facts'> The biggest one to me is his punt average. Not so good compared to our opponents.

Monroe Slavin
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 12:08:54 AM

Agree on the youth thing....But that doesn't explain reasonably decent performance and, then, total collapse.

Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!

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L.C.
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 1:27:11 AM

Casper71...And thanks for clarifying the punting information...shows there are all kinds of "facts'> The biggest one to me is his punt average. Not so good compared to our opponents.[/QUOTE wrote:

I agree - punting needs to improve. I don't dispute that at all. When they recruited a near-4-star punter, I thought Ohio was going to be above average in that area for 4 years, but it hasn't worked out

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Sony7
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 2:12:20 AM

Okay, O-line I'll give you. TT is getting pressured up the middle. But, Beau up the middle is not working (yes because of the O-line, but we do it over and over again). That's why you let your athletic QB roll out, get out of the pocket, use his feet. Those things help when an O-line is not effective. I have seen spark in the Defense even during this tough streak, but sometime the Offense appears to be defeated. Too many 3rd and longs, and a horrible conversion rate on third and long. I'm not an expert, but I think the O - line is the major problem, but attitude is running very close to number 1, and that bothers me. We look like a defeated team. It reminds me of the bowl game against Troy a few years ago when we were humiliated, defeated (in our heads) from the beginning. The difference, Troy was faster and had more athletes at that time. On paper, in 2013, OHIO should have been able to compete with anyone in the MAC this year. Total disappointment . No excuses!

Go Bobcats!

SONY7

Robert Fox
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 8:52:29 AM

Sony7 wrote:

Okay, O-line I'll give you. TT is getting pressured up the middle. But, Beau up the middle is not working (yes because of the O-line, but we do it over and over again). That's why you let your athletic QB roll out, get out of the pocket, use his feet. Those things help when an O-line is not effective. I have seen spark in the Defense even during this tough streak, but sometime the Offense appears to be defeated. Too many 3rd and longs, and a horrible conversion rate on third and long. I'm not an expert, but I think the O - line is the major problem, but attitude is running very close to number 1, and that bothers me. We look like a defeated team. It reminds me of the bowl game against Troy a few years ago when we were humiliated, defeated (in our heads) from the beginning. The difference, Troy was faster and had more athletes at that time. On paper, in 2013, OHIO should have been able to compete with anyone in the MAC this year. Total disappointment . No excuses!

If we're healthy, that bolded part may be true. But if our line is decimated, it is not true. So if our line is significantly weakened, how much of our struggles result directly from that? It seems there are many posters who are saying "yeah, I understand our line was down, but that doesn't explain how bad we've played."

It all starts with the OL. Out of that it may be also true that:
The team's morale is down.
TT is frustrated, not himself
Offensive play calling is stagnant, unwilling (?) to recognize OL limitations

Bcat2
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 9:16:07 AM

O-Line maturity and continuity can change everything. Last season coach Pinkel at MIZZOU was 5-7, no bowl. The deal was the OL. This season 9-1, one loss to So. Car. 27-24 in OT. The deal is the OL. Now Ohio certainly has other issues, but, it all starts up front.

Note. McGrath is out for next game, mono, the big guy was predicted to be 1st team All-MAC. No doubt he would like a do over.

Pinkel has to live with his 5-7 and Solich will have this season. We move on.

Last Edited: 11/21/2013 9:27:24 AM by Bcat2

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Mark Lembright '85
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 9:32:15 AM

Bcat2 wrote:

I agree about the importance of the health and importance of the offensive line, but we've said this very same thing for the last several years now. Last year our offensive line was decimated by injuries (Eric Herman notwithstanding) and we thought this year things would be different. They weren't. Having an injury-plagued offensive line at Ohio has turned into a tradition, almost as consistent as Halloween! I understand that in 2015 Ohio should have a very experienced line, but with OUr luck two-thirds of that o-line will be injured in the first two games of that season and Ohio will still be playing redshirt freshmen and sophomores.

Perhaps Mike and everyone looking at Ohio's strength and conditioning system are on to something.......

SouthernCat
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 10:38:21 AM

Mark Lembright '85 wrote:

Bcat2 wrote:

Or our recruiting system. There's only so much a strength coach can do if you recruit smaller guys. You can't make behemoths if the frame isn't there.

BillyTheCat
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 11:31:45 AM

SouthernCat wrote:

Mark Lembright '85 wrote:

Bcat2 wrote:

Or our recruiting system. There's only so much a strength coach can do if you recruit smaller guys. You can't make behemoths if the frame isn't there.

BINGO!!!!

GoCats105
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 12:10:24 PM

SouthernCat wrote:

Mark Lembright '85 wrote:

Bcat2 wrote:

Or our recruiting system. There's only so much a strength coach can do if you recruit smaller guys. You can't make behemoths if the frame isn't there.

You mean to tell me that I can't turn a mouse into an elephant? That's just crazy talk.

L.C.
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 12:31:05 PM

Robert Fox wrote:

......But if our line is decimated, it is not true.....

Sorry, but this is a word choice that always bugs me, and given the history of this board, I can get away with this.

. "Decimated" is removal of a tenth. Therefore an offense is technically decimated by the loss of a single player. The loss of even a single lineman would be double decimation as pertains to the line itself.

Anyway, back on point, the thing that a lot of fans miss is that the offense is eleven players, all of whom have a role in its success or failure. The TV cameras focus mostly on whoever has the ball, and our eyes do the same thing, but that doesn't mean that the others aren't equally important. Five of the eleven are the line, and add in a half for the tight end, who is half lineman, half receiver, and fully half the offense is made up of the big guys up front.

Some people don't get that losing all five of those players, plus a huge number of TEs hurts, and hurts a lot. Lets imagine the reverse. Suppose the five linemen were healthy, but you lost all of the the other five positions, QB/RB/WR, and had to play only inexperienced Freshmen/Sophomores. Would it impact the offense if the starters were Vick/Sprauge, Daz/Dorian Brown, and at WR, Reid/Dixon/Sebastian Smith/Sawyer/Rodriquez? Honestly I think that losing all the skill position players would hurt less than losing the linemen because size and physical maturity is less a factor at skill positions than it is on the line.

Now, none of this answers the question that Monroe aptly asked, but I have at least a part answer for it:

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Agree on the youth thing....But that doesn't explain reasonably decent performance and, then, total collapse.

The major line losses came against Louisville. How could Ohio then beat NTSU and Marshall? My best answer is this - the single most important offensive line position, from TT's perspective, at least, is LT. He's the one that protects his blindside. With Prior over there, TT had confidence he wasn't going to be hit from that side, and wasn't looking over his shoulder. Prior was hurt early in the CMU game. I'd say that's about when the wheels started to fall off.

As for Sony7's question, I have no answer:

Sony7 wrote:

... That's why you let your athletic QB roll out, get out of the pocket, use his feet. Those things help when an O-line is not effective.

For Mark Lembright, I have at least a ray of hope:

Mark Lembright '85 wrote:

Having an injury-plagued offensive line at Ohio has turned into a tradition, almost as consistent as Halloween! I understand that in 2015 Ohio should have a very experienced line, but with OUr luck two-thirds of that o-line will be injured in the first two games of that season and Ohio will still be playing redshirt freshmen and sophomores.

Perhaps Mike and everyone looking at Ohio's strength and conditioning system are on to something.......

This losses of Senior linemen this year hurt far more than usual because there are only 5 upper class linemen (4 Seniors and a Junior). In 2015 there will be 9 of them (6 Seniors and 3 Juniors), so the loss of a few will not hurt as badly. That said, I have no answer for why the line losses are so high, year after year.

Last Edited: 11/21/2013 12:32:27 PM by L.C.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Pataskala
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 12:31:48 PM

On offense, if the inexperienced line causes problems, you make adjustments -- you change blocking schemes, you bring in another TE to block, etc. We haven't seen any of that. Hand off to Beau (or whichever RB is in there) and send them into the middle of the blocking mess. The threat of T2 running has always kept the defenses honest. Since he doesn't run anymore, for whatever reason, we're basically 10 on 11.

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

Chuck_IV
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 12:58:57 PM

Pataskala wrote:

This.

I have seen no adjustments watsoever from week to week. If the O line is decimated as people put it, then you cannot put the blinders on and continue to call the SAME game week after week, as if we are running with the regular complete starting O line. You HAVE TO change and I don't see the willingness to do it.

On the recruiting side, I've been saying it for several years, we need to recruit BIGGER linemen. It seems like Solich likes to go for the best "athlete" as opposed to the biggest. This only works so much. While a bigger lineman may not be as good out of HS as say the pure athlete, they can be taught. You CANNOT teach size. This also may be the reason why we get injured so much. Smaller players have to do more to make up for their size difference.

We are now a well established program, there's no reason we cannot be the ones recruiting the big guys upfront that I see on many of the other top MAC schools these days.

Last Edited: 11/21/2013 1:11:10 PM by Chuck_IV

Class of 88

L.C.
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 1:16:58 PM

Regarding Ohio's history of losses on the OL, I decided to go back and look at the records. Its not as bad as you might think, with only a few years being really bad:

2005 - Memory is fuzzy, but 3 linemen went down in a 5 minute period against BG, and Ohio then lost 5 of the last 7. I don't remember who they were, though. Maybe Knabb, Wesley, and Johnson? Undersclassmen playing were Stuck, Matt Miller, Mike Eynon, and David Shelby.

2006 - Few injuries. Coppage missed one game, Paul Johnson was hurt after 4 games. Stuck had off-the field issues. Few underclassmen played much, only Eynon and Stuck got many snaps.

2007 - Not that many injuries. Eynon missed 3 games. Stuck missed 3 games and parts of some others. Johnson was hurt again and career was over for him. White was the only underclassman that played much.

2008 - Moderate injuries - Stuck missed some games early. Philibin missed some late. Schussler was hurt. after about 5 games. Bunner missed a couple early, and one late. Bunner was the only underclassman that played much.

2009 - Worse injuries - Laudermilch, Flowers, Bunner and Carlotta all hurt early. Lots of underclassmen played: Strum, Laudermilch, Pinder and Flading played as Sophomores, and Herman as Freshmen.

2010 - Strum missed a couple games, Carlotta much of the season, but Allen, Herman, Flading, Lechner, and McGrath were healthy. This was mostly and underclassmen line - Allen, Herman, amd Carlotta were Sophomores, and McGrath and Lechner were Freshman. This set the stage for very good lines in 2011 and 2012.

2011 - Healthy line, of all upperclassmen (Strum, Carlotta, Allen, Herman, Flading), with some Lechner, McGrath, and others mixed in. This should have been the year.

2012 - Again, pretty healthy line, all upperclassmen (Prior, Carlotta, Allen, Herman, McGrath), (but the entire rest of the team was injury ridden, especially the defense) This could have been the year.

2013 - Bad injuries, as we know

So, it's not like every year has been bad up front. There are usually some, but they can play through them. The bad years for injuries were 2005, 2009, and 2013. The good years were 2006-2007 and 2011-2012.

Of particular note, this year Ohio played a lot of underclassmen on the line. The other time that happened was in 2010. As you would expect, it led to some very good lines in 2011 and 2012. The years when Ohio had mostly a veteran line were 2006-8, 2011, and 2012. Most of those were pretty good years.

Last Edited: 11/21/2013 1:21:17 PM by L.C.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Robert Fox
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 1:24:59 PM

L.C. wrote:

Robert Fox wrote:

......But if our line is decimated, it is not true.....

Sorry, but this is a word choice that always bugs me, and given the history of this board, I can get away with this.

In my only defense, I'll say this: defining "decimated" as a removal of a tenth has its roots in the Roman military. Sticking with that definition ignores centuries of etymological evolution (how do you like that!) that has made the word synonymous with "significantly diminish."

By the way, coincidentally I learned the historical definition of decimated just last night on "Caligula: 1400 Days" or something like that...

Last Edited: 11/21/2013 1:26:17 PM by Robert Fox

L.C.
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 1:53:30 PM

While we're at it, shall we talk about Pyrrhic Victories, where the victor can say "If we are victorious in one more battle ..., we shall be utterly ruined"?

We've had a few of those over the years. (Penn St???)

Last Edited: 11/21/2013 2:20:01 PM by L.C.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Casper71
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 2:30:49 PM

Shall we also talk about a defense that has given up 123 points the last 3 games?

This isn't just on the O-line.

As FS said on the post game show (which I listened to while driving back to cincy): we were a good football team early in the year...now all three segments of the game (nofense, nodefense and nospecial teams) are not playing well (an understatement).

Bottom line, and I guess I will say it until I am blue in the face: this staff needs to recruit MORE and BETTER bigger, faster stronger players, period. (When we recruit like a Toledo I will be happier.) Then get em here and make em even bigger, faster and stronger.

Bcat2
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 2:39:30 PM

L.C. wrote:

With Dietz and Johnson the tackle spot would have been better and Woods would have redshirted.

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

Mark Lembright '85
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/21/2013 4:15:18 PM

L.C. wrote:

L.C., you are bastion of rationality in a sea of chaos! I always enjoy your well-thought out and researched comments. Great stuff!

Sean Gallagher
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/24/2013 10:55:31 AM

Well, I saw at least 1/5 of the future O-Line last night at Infocision Stadium in Akron where St. Edward beat Austintown Fitch in the Region 1 Division 1 State football semifinal 28-0. St. Edward's OT/OG Jake Prurehs (pronounced Preeez) dominated. He's committed to OU and Bobcat fans will not be dissapointed in this kid. He picked OU over Yale so we're getting a kid with brains and brawn. He's a throwback playing in 19 degree weather in short sleeves and pancacking people on the field. Tough, smart, intense kid. Too bad OU doesn't grab a few more of these kids from Catholic probrams like Ed's, Ignatius ,Moeller, X and Elder, to mame a few. They apparently offered Tyler King from St. Ed's also, but he supposedly wanted time to think about it and OU withdrew the offer. Dumb move by somebody in Athens. King is an aggressive athletic kid who now is apparently headed to BG.

Prurehs is #76 and King is #66 in the green and gold
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Last Edited: 11/25/2013 8:55:59 AM by Sean Gallagher

allen
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/24/2013 11:09:01 AM

It's the O-Line because it can't be TT.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

OhioCatFan
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/24/2013 12:09:54 PM

allen wrote:

It's the O-Line because it can't be TT.

truth be told, it's probably some of both.

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Deciduous Forest Cat
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RE: It's the o-line people.

Posted: 11/24/2013 12:30:26 PM

The o-line is getting abused, but TT needs to handle the frustration better. and the offensive coaches need to account for this. More rollouts, more speed to the corners. not Beauupthemiddle.

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