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Topic:  OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool

Topic:  OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
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sargentfan
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  Message Not Read  OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/24/2013 1:06:51 PM 
An organization that gives recommendations to the NCAA, that I guess the NCAA usually ignores came up with a pretty nifty web tool to look at certain spending.  I didn't look up how they get there data or how it is evaluated, but here is the info on OHIO from 2005-2011

spendingdatabase.knightcommission.org/fbs/mac/ohio-university#!quicktabs-tab-institution_data-0
spendingdatabase.knightcommission.org/fbs/mac/ohio-university#!quicktabs-tab-institution_data-0
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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/24/2013 10:26:04 PM 
Honestly, I'm not sure if this is remotely accurate. But if it is...I don't ever want to hear the "we spend too much on athletics" or "we've put too much $$ in football" argument again. We're at or below the MAC average in both. And the MAC is so far removed from the national average it's not even funny.


Last Edited: 12/24/2013 10:26:18 PM by catfan28

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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/24/2013 11:02:42 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
But if it is...I don't ever want to hear the "we spend too much on athletics" or "we've put too much $$ in football" argument again. We're at or below the MAC average in both. And the MAC is so far removed from the national average it's not even funny.


I can't think we spend too much on football because others spend even more? That doesn't parse.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/24/2013 11:28:35 PM 
JSF wrote:
catfan28 wrote:
But if it is...I don't ever want to hear the "we spend too much on athletics" or "we've put too much $$ in football" argument again. We're at or below the MAC average in both. And the MAC is so far removed from the national average it's not even funny.


I can't think we spend too much on football because others spend even more? That doesn't parse.


Sure it does. Logically, you should be compared to your peers. We are spending less than the vast majority of schools in a similar position to us. And, I might add, getting a superior output. It's hard not to label our football program as a success given the relative ratio of these inputs/outputs.

I suppose you could argue that we should spend as much as Heidelberg or Marietta, but that seems to be a pretty radical notion. For the foreseeable future, we're in the MAC.
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/25/2013 11:46:14 AM 
Any of the McDavis fan club want to chime in on how we were above both the MAC and FBS median in academic spending per full time student and now we trail both?

Last Edited: 12/25/2013 11:47:34 AM by OUPride

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colobobcat66
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/25/2013 12:18:04 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Any of the McDavis fan club want to chime in on how we were above both the MAC and FBS median in academic spending per full time student and now we trail both?

Source please
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/25/2013 12:50:06 PM 
colobobcat66 wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Any of the McDavis fan club want to chime in on how we were above both the MAC and FBS median in academic spending per full time student and now we trail both?

Source please

Linked in the OP.  The second graph lays out the fact that between 2005 and 2011 we've fallen behind the median academic spending per full time student against both the MAC and all of FBS.  And if you want to go dig through that site and compare Ohio to the other Ohio schools, it gets even worse against all but a couple, particularly relative to those (Miami and OSU) whom McDavis is constantly bragging that he's closing the gap.  There's a reason that the faculty want to run him off, and his athletic spending is only a very small part of that equation.

 
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/25/2013 8:10:29 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
JSF wrote:
catfan28 wrote:
But if it is...I don't ever want to hear the "we spend too much on athletics" or "we've put too much $$ in football" argument again. We're at or below the MAC average in both. And the MAC is so far removed from the national average it's not even funny.


I can't think we spend too much on football because others spend even more? That doesn't parse.


Sure it does. Logically, you should be compared to your peers.


But I don't care how much our peers are spending. I care how much we are spending.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/25/2013 9:08:48 PM 
JSF wrote:
catfan28 wrote:
JSF wrote:
catfan28 wrote:
But if it is...I don't ever want to hear the "we spend too much on athletics" or "we've put too much $$ in football" argument again. We're at or below the MAC average in both. And the MAC is so far removed from the national average it's not even funny.


I can't think we spend too much on football because others spend even more? That doesn't parse.


Sure it does. Logically, you should be compared to your peers.


But I don't care how much our peers are spending. I care how much we are spending.

What Ohio is spending should be benchmarked against some kind of model. That model is perfectly debatable. It could be a small college spending model with peer set to be the Ohio Athletic Conference. There could have a model that precludes varsity athletics at all. Personally I like funding as many varsity sports as possible. That is the model the top private schools in Division 1 follow. Ohio has trimmed to 16 varsity sports and its effective for participating in FBS over dealing with sports that aren't normally offered by conferences. I'm not sure its a model that does the student body and alumni justice. More varsity sports brings more money into town.


Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/25/2013 11:36:51 PM 
JSF wrote:
But I don't care how much our peers are spending. I care how much we are spending.


You can't simply look at things in a vacuum. If we hope to be remotely competitive academically, athletically or in any other aspect of this school, you have to benchmark yourself against peer institutions. There is no way to measure or success (or failure) unless there is some basis for comparison.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/26/2013 12:28:07 AM 
catfan28 wrote:
JSF wrote:
But I don't care how much our peers are spending. I care how much we are spending.


You can't simply look at things in a vacuum. If we hope to be remotely competitive academically, athletically or in any other aspect of this school, you have to benchmark yourself against peer institutions. There is no way to measure or success (or failure) unless there is some basis for comparison.


I'm not interested in measuring success or failure, nor am I interested in comparing ourselves to others. I'm interested in how much we're spending and how we can reduce it.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/26/2013 12:56:42 AM 
JSF wrote:
catfan28 wrote:
JSF wrote:
But I don't care how much our peers are spending. I care how much we are spending.


You can't simply look at things in a vacuum. If we hope to be remotely competitive academically, athletically or in any other aspect of this school, you have to benchmark yourself against peer institutions. There is no way to measure or success (or failure) unless there is some basis for comparison.


I'm not interested in measuring success or failure, nor am I interested in comparing ourselves to others. I'm interested in how much we're spending and how we can reduce it.

If you have no athletic model to aspire to match than the best way of reducing athletic spending is to drop varsity athletics all together. There is your answer. If you have certain competitiveness and initiatives to protect than you have to look at expenditures within that model. Very simple for anyone who does the heavy lifting at the strategic level.

 


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2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/26/2013 9:56:17 AM 
JSF wrote:
I'm not interested in measuring success or failure, nor am I interested in comparing ourselves to others. I'm interested in how much we're spending and how we can reduce it.


What about academics? Is your sole goal just to reduce spending? If so, we could just cut 50 programs and call it saving...but we wouldn't be much of an academic institution at that point.

If the only goal is reducing spending, who knows where we'd be at this point. Not an Ohio University I'd want to be a part of.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/26/2013 1:52:04 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
JSF wrote:
I'm not interested in measuring success or failure, nor am I interested in comparing ourselves to others. I'm interested in how much we're spending and how we can reduce it.


What about academics? Is your sole goal just to reduce spending? If so, we could just cut 50 programs and call it saving...but we wouldn't be much of an academic institution at that point.


Funny you say that: We probably should cut programs. We have far too many. But primarily, I'm talking about football. I don't want Ohio University to have it.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/26/2013 2:12:53 PM 
JSF wrote:
Funny you say that: We probably should cut programs. We have far too many. But primarily, I'm talking about football. I don't want Ohio University to have it.


Can you think of any university with a similar profile to ours that doesn't have football? We'd be a joke. I don't understand why you insist on not having football - it seems to be just a quixotic obsession to be "different" with you.
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Ohio69
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/26/2013 2:22:43 PM 


Don't try to reason with JSF on this. He says he doesn't want Ohio to have football. You are not going to change his mind.




Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/26/2013 2:24:17 PM 
Ohio69 wrote:


Don't try to reason with JSF on this. He says he doesn't want Ohio to have football. You are not going to change his mind.





I've seen that. I just question what logical reasoning he has for that. Just "saving money" doesn't cut it. If the goal is to reduce spending, we should just close the university and call it a day. Spending would be zero at that point.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/26/2013 2:32:17 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
I don't understand why you insist on not having football - it seems to be just a quixotic obsession to be "different" with you.


Football comes at a physical cost to players that is too high. I don't think there is any way to responsibly sponsor the sport and I would rather not my alma mater exact that price from its students. I also don't believe the culture around football is healthy and is partly responsible for the problem of injuries and concussions the sport is facing.

Selfishly, I would rather the money go into other sports. As to whether similar schools don't have football, that's a really good question. But if a student is considering us or Miami or, I dunno, Bowling Green, is it the football program that sways people? I have to think there are a bunch of other things that are going to be more important in that kid's mind. I wholly disagree we'd be a "joke." And if we were, that speaks to a bigger problem. Perhaps that's not a community of universities we would not want to associate with.

I apologize if I made you think the idea was to save the university money. It's not. The university would find ways to spend it in other places.

69: I welcome a discussion on this. I have an open mind; it's how I got to this position in the first place. I've had it with other people around here before and it was a respectful dialogue.

Last Edited: 12/26/2013 2:33:54 PM by JSF


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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TheBobcatBandit
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/26/2013 2:34:10 PM 
And yet even though we're spending less the kids coming into this school have higher credentials than ever and our engineering program just got the biggest donation of its kind. Our academics are doing just fine. If we bring in smart students we will turn out smart students and I credit the higher credentials of students coming in to more people applying. and why are more people applying? because through sports(OU making the sweet 16 and OU making bowls) more people are finding out about our university and once they find out its here its not hard to fall in love with OU
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TheBobcatBandit
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/26/2013 2:35:32 PM 
My point being, spending more money on football isn't hurting our academics
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/26/2013 2:36:38 PM 
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
and why are more people applying? because through sports(OU making the sweet 16 and OU making bowls) more people are finding out about our university and once they find out its here its not hard to fall in love with OU


Correlation does not equal causation. Maybe more students are hearing about us because our engineering program is really good and word is spreading?

TheBobcatBandit wrote:
My point being, spending more money on football isn't hurting our academics


See above. I'm not making that argument.

Last Edited: 12/26/2013 2:37:17 PM by JSF


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/26/2013 2:57:11 PM 
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
And yet even though we're spending less the kids coming into this school have higher credentials than ever and our engineering program just got the biggest donation of its kind. Our academics are doing just fine. If we bring in smart students we will turn out smart students and I credit the higher credentials of students coming in to more people applying. and why are more people applying? because through sports(OU making the sweet 16 and OU making bowls) more people are finding out about our university and once they find out its here its not hard to fall in love with OU

Another McDavis myth.

For 2005 the 25th and 75th percentiles for incoming freshmen SAT was 980-1200.  For the 2012 freshman class it was 970-1200.  On the ACT composite, it was 21-25 in 2005 and 21-26 in 2012.

16% of the incoming freshmen had graduated in the top tenth of their high school classes in 2005.  In 2012,.......wait for it..............16% of the incoming freshmen graduated in the top tenth of their high school class.  At the other end of the spectrum, 20% graduated in the bottom half in 2005, and in 2012, 19% graduated in the bottom half.

And if you want to get really depressed, the most recent numbers for Miami and OSU:
OSU: 27-31 ACT midrange/1150-1380 SAT/58% in top tenth of HS class
Miami:25-30 ACT/1120-1330/39% in top tenth.

Numbers don't lie.  Roderick, however, does.  If I'm running the show in Oxford or Columbus, I would start up a fund to keep McDavis in Athens for a long, long time because as long as he's running Ohio, it will never be a competitor. 

2005-2006

2012-2013

 
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TheBobcatBandit
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/26/2013 3:49:08 PM 
what's the GPA of incoming freshman compared to 2005.
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TheBobcatBandit
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/26/2013 3:57:00 PM 
JSF wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
and why are more people applying? because through sports(OU making the sweet 16 and OU making bowls) more people are finding out about our university and once they find out its here its not hard to fall in love with OU


Correlation does not equal causation. Maybe more students are hearing about us because our engineering program is really good and word is spreading?

TheBobcatBandit wrote:
My point being, spending more money on football isn't hurting our academics


See above. I'm not making that argument.



to your point and partially tying in mine. If OU didn't have football many people would not want to come here. I would not have gone to OU if they didn't have a football team and I promise you they're many others like me. Don't think of football as a program that OU is spending money on. Think of it as OU putting money into advertising

I was a Michigan fan growing up. And you know what got me first interested in OU, watching the 2005 Mac tourney and watching OU beat Pitt on ESPN. Without ever watching those games I would've never been even remotely interested in OU.

Last Edited: 12/26/2013 4:06:46 PM by TheBobcatBandit

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT - Interesting Athletic Spending Research Tool
   Posted: 12/26/2013 4:43:15 PM 
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
what's the GPA of incoming freshman compared to 2005.

3.40 vs. 3.30.  A marginal increase in any event and, absent any improvements in class rank and test scores, more likely a result of the rampant grade inflation in American high schools than any real improvement in the quality of our applicant pool and freshmen classes.  In fact at the higher end, we've actually gotten worse.  47% of the class having a 3.50 or better in 2005 versus only 42% in 2012.

The figures are all there in the two university documents I linked.  There has been virtually no change in the quality of our freshmen classes under McDavis' leadership.  2005 being the first freshman class that was admitted under his Presidency, and certainly none that can be attributed to the multi-million dollar athletic subsidy.

If people were really concerned with attracting better students to Ohio, they'd stop this nonsense that athletic spending is the way to get there and instead argue that the subsidy propping up the athletic department instead be spent on direct merit scholarships to high ability students.

 


 
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