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Topic:  Special Teams and Secondary

Topic:  Special Teams and Secondary
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ytownbobcat
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  Message Not Read  Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/1/2014 2:58:36 PM 
These are the most worrisome areas for 2014 in my opinion.

Special Teams: We are still looking for a punter two seasons after Hershey departed. Our punters are inconsistent and field position was challenging against better teams. The place kicking and kickoff position seems settled now with Yadzani. He was stellar.
Kick off returners are tentative and returns were mostly lackluster. Punt returners had very few yards gained and there were numerous muffs. I don't think Daz has the acceleration to be a weapon and ball security is an issue with him.

Our kick off team was giving up too many yards early , but it was improved as the season progressed. Our punt team coverage is hard to evaluate since we had many short and shanked punts out of bounds. 

Secondary- Most of our positive stats were against very poor offensive teams. Tackling in the open field is atrocious. We did not have any corner that the opposition was afraid to attack. We are undersized. With Carrie graduating we are faced with finding leadership. Loss of Lorenzo Fisher for off season violations took away our best tackler. Returning CB Jamil Shaw was ineffective against the run and may have had lingering injury problems.

My burning image is our DB's chasing receivers down the field with their back to the passer and everyone in the stands yelling "TURN AROUND!". 
Those instances usually resulted in Interference calls, a catch by the opponent or the ball hitting our DB in the back!

Sorry to vent but these are areas holding back our program. New coaches not matching their predecessors in these two areas.
 

Last Edited: 1/2/2014 11:22:31 PM by ytownbobcat
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Paul Graham
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Location: The Plains, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/2/2014 3:36:55 PM 
I've been whining about these two areas for a while. There was a noticeable drop in special teams performance when Haines took over....and it still hasn't fully recovered (though there was improvement this year). Punting is awful...and the return game could use some help.

We have no one to return kick offs effectively, outside of perhaps Daz. And why is that? Because we no longer have the athletes. Carpenter, Bass and L. Smith are not D1 kick returners...period.

And the defensive backfield is, in general, a mess and it will only get worse. Unless Dyquan Stewart and some of the others take over. But will Solich and staff let them? Don't underestimate Frankie's love of the status quo.
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Casper71
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/2/2014 4:11:23 PM 
And, does anyone else notice the move toward pro style QBs and BIG RBs?  Even teams running multiple formation like the pistol and I, shotgun and I, etc?   
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Monroe Slavin
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Location: Oxnard, CA
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/2/2014 8:49:04 PM 
Also, Offense and the Rest of the Defense.

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Doc Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/2/2014 9:13:24 PM 
Got a verbal from a JUCO punter today.....something like a 45 yard average in 2013.....not too shabby.
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ytownbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/2/2014 11:31:36 PM 
Getting a successful JUCO punter is a step in the right direction. I heard Matt Green may be gone and Venham is now a WR (per Arkley) and the back-up punter.
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Mike Johnson
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Member Since: 11/11/2004
Location: North Canton, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/3/2014 6:53:20 PM 
ytownbobcat wrote:
These are the most worrisome areas for 2014 in my opinion.

Special Teams: We are still looking for a punter two seasons after Hershey departed. Our punters are inconsistent and field position was challenging against better teams. The place kicking and kickoff position seems settled now with Yadzani. He was stellar.
Kick off returners are tentative and returns were mostly lackluster. Punt returners had very few yards gained and there were numerous muffs. I don't think Daz has the acceleration to be a weapon and ball security is an issue with him.

Our kick off team was giving up too many yards early , but it was improved as the season progressed. Our punt team coverage is hard to evaluate since we had many short and shanked punts out of bounds.

Secondary- Most of our positive stats were against very poor offensive teams. Tackling in the open field is atrocious. We did not have any corner that the opposition was afraid to attack. We are undersized. With Carrie graduating we are faced with finding leadership. Loss of Lorenzo Fisher for off season violations took away our best tackler. Returning CB Jamil Shaw was ineffective against the run and may have had lingering injury problems.

My burning image is our DB's chasing receivers down the field with their back to the passer and everyone in the stands yelling "TURN AROUND!".
Those instances usually resulted in Interference calls, a catch by the opponent or the ball hitting our DB in the back!

Sorry to vent but these are areas holding back our program. New coaches not matching their predecessors in these two areas.



Concededly, Ohio has had some fine DBs in recent years. To me, though, the best Ohio defensive backfield during the last 15 or so seasons was one including Tevell Jones, Dennis Fitzgerald, Brandon Cade and Sean Williams. Jones was marvellously athletic and is among Ohio's career leader in picks. Fitzgerald with his hard hits used to scare the bejabbers out of opponents' WRs.

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Paul Graham
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Location: The Plains, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/3/2014 7:15:19 PM 
Mike Johnson wrote:
ytownbobcat wrote:
These are the most worrisome areas for 2014 in my opinion.

Special Teams: We are still looking for a punter two seasons after Hershey departed. Our punters are inconsistent and field position was challenging against better teams. The place kicking and kickoff position seems settled now with Yadzani. He was stellar.
Kick off returners are tentative and returns were mostly lackluster. Punt returners had very few yards gained and there were numerous muffs. I don't think Daz has the acceleration to be a weapon and ball security is an issue with him.

Our kick off team was giving up too many yards early , but it was improved as the season progressed. Our punt team coverage is hard to evaluate since we had many short and shanked punts out of bounds.

Secondary- Most of our positive stats were against very poor offensive teams. Tackling in the open field is atrocious. We did not have any corner that the opposition was afraid to attack. We are undersized. With Carrie graduating we are faced with finding leadership. Loss of Lorenzo Fisher for off season violations took away our best tackler. Returning CB Jamil Shaw was ineffective against the run and may have had lingering injury problems.

My burning image is our DB's chasing receivers down the field with their back to the passer and everyone in the stands yelling "TURN AROUND!".
Those instances usually resulted in Interference calls, a catch by the opponent or the ball hitting our DB in the back!

Sorry to vent but these are areas holding back our program. New coaches not matching their predecessors in these two areas.



Concededly, Ohio has had some fine DBs in recent years. To me, though, the best Ohio defensive backfield during the last 15 or so seasons was one including Tevell Jones, Dennis Fitzgerald, Brandon Cade and Sean Williams. Jones was marvellously athletic and is among Ohio's career leader in picks. Fitzgerald with his hard hits used to scare the bejabbers out of opponents' WRs.


Agreed! Grobe had some killer defensive backfields. Fitzgerald was my favorite player as a young lad. :)
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L.C.
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Member Since: 8/31/2005
Location: United States
Post Count: 10,495

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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/3/2014 9:56:36 PM 
There has been more turnover in DB coaches than at any other position except maybe DL. It started in 2005 with Fred Reed, but he moved to the NFL so David Brown took over from 2006 to 2008. Then Brown took a head coaching job in Rolla, and Reed returned from 2009 to 2012.

Today Brown is at Fresno St and Reed is at Syracuse. The new db coach in 2013 was James Ward.

Last Edited: 1/3/2014 10:10:59 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Monroe Slavin
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Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121

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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/4/2014 12:37:28 AM 
Mike Johnson wrote:
ytownbobcat wrote:
These are the most worrisome areas for 2014 in my opinion.

Special Teams: We are still looking for a punter two seasons after Hershey departed. Our punters are inconsistent and field position was challenging against better teams. The place kicking and kickoff position seems settled now with Yadzani. He was stellar.
Kick off returners are tentative and returns were mostly lackluster. Punt returners had very few yards gained and there were numerous muffs. I don't think Daz has the acceleration to be a weapon and ball security is an issue with him.

Our kick off team was giving up too many yards early , but it was improved as the season progressed. Our punt team coverage is hard to evaluate since we had many short and shanked punts out of bounds.

Secondary- Most of our positive stats were against very poor offensive teams. Tackling in the open field is atrocious. We did not have any corner that the opposition was afraid to attack. We are undersized. With Carrie graduating we are faced with finding leadership. Loss of Lorenzo Fisher for off season violations took away our best tackler. Returning CB Jamil Shaw was ineffective against the run and may have had lingering injury problems.

My burning image is our DB's chasing receivers down the field with their back to the passer and everyone in the stands yelling "TURN AROUND!".
Those instances usually resulted in Interference calls, a catch by the opponent or the ball hitting our DB in the back!

Sorry to vent but these are areas holding back our program. New coaches not matching their predecessors in these two areas.



Concededly, Ohio has had some fine DBs in recent years. To me, though, the best Ohio defensive backfield during the last 15 or so seasons was one including Tevell Jones, Dennis Fitzgerald, Brandon Cade and Sean Williams. Jones was marvellously athletic and is among Ohio's career leader in picks. Fitzgerald with his hard hits used to scare the bejabbers out of opponents' WRs.

Where's the band?!
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The Pets On The Go Collection of pet gear travel bags
The Holiday Tote Bigg Bagg Collection--over-sized, reversible, extra pockets; now love carrying packages as much as you love shopping!

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Rowdy Rufus
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Member Since: 1/11/2011
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/4/2014 10:12:34 AM 
Would love to see Patterson and Cochran returning kicks this year.   However, currently WR's do not return kicks.  Seems strange that our fastest player is not permitted to return kicks.  
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ytownbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/4/2014 12:57:25 PM 
I think the skill set is different for Kick Off returns versus what skills are required for a position player such as a wide receiver. Speed alone is not the principal skill.
I was thinking about this during our bowl game. Landon Smith, who I consider to be one of our finest athletes, was returning kickoffs. Landon is outstanding in the open field as a receiver and has the ability to get "after the catch" yardage. His one on one skills are extraordinary. But during his kick off returns at the Beef O Brady he was not able to create "space" for himself. Thus his returns were ordinary. This is not a knock on him. He does not have a lot of experience returning kickoffs as a collegian.
The ability to create space is the first skill then acceleration, flat out speed and breaking arm tackles is what makes for a great Kick-Off returner. Ball security , including muffs and fumbles are intolerable.
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Rowdy Rufus
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/20/2014 4:31:53 PM 
ytownbobcat wrote:
I think the skill set is different for Kick Off returns versus what skills are required for a position player such as a wide receiver. Speed alone is not the principal skill.
I was thinking about this during our bowl game. Landon Smith, who I consider to be one of our finest athletes, was returning kickoffs. Landon is outstanding in the open field as a receiver and has the ability to get "after the catch" yardage. His one on one skills are extraordinary. But during his kick off returns at the Beef O Brady he was not able to create "space" for himself. Thus his returns were ordinary. This is not a knock on him. He does not have a lot of experience returning kickoffs as a collegian.
The ability to create space is the first skill then acceleration, flat out speed and breaking arm tackles is what makes for a great Kick-Off returner. Ball security , including muffs and fumbles are intolerable.


I agree with you.  That was my basic thinking behind Cochran at KR.  I saw where he was a KR in HS... However, he only had like 4 returns but 2 of them were for TD's  Don't know if teams just did not kick to him or if he only returned kicks part time.  Still, that's way too much speed to have on the sidelines in my opinion.  
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Bobcat Grad 86
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/20/2014 5:18:06 PM 
"Daz Lacks Acceleration on Kick-Off returns"????  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAzG4th_PEc

High School, couple of KO and Punt returns for touchdown at 2:55, nice hands on punt return.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvn0N8by1Tc

Last Edited: 1/20/2014 6:03:14 PM by Bobcat Grad 86
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Bobcatzblitz
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/21/2014 6:05:22 AM 
Devin Bass not a D1 kick returner?? I assume you paid no attention to Ohio football this year because he was leading the conference for awhile.
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/21/2014 10:51:44 AM 
Bobcat Grad 86 wrote:
Daz Lacks Acceleration on Kick-Off returns???? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAzG4th_PEc

High School, couple of KO and Punt returns for touchdown at 2:55, nice hands on punt return.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvn0N8by1Tc


Speaking of Daz, is it just me or does the young man lack the ability to be a go-to RB or WR? I ask because if he were seen by his coaches as a game changer, during his two seasons he might have become the standout that other first- and second-year RBs and WRs often have become.

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/21/2014 11:29:34 AM 
Bobcatzblitz wrote:
Devin Bass not a D1 kick returner?? I assume you paid no attention to Ohio football this year because he was leading the conference for awhile.

I agree that he did a good job as a kick returner, but Devin Bass has also quietly done a lot of very good things for the Bobcats. Watch that Daz kick off return again. Who is his personal escort, quietly taking the last two defenders out of the action, making sure Daz remains untouched? Who caught Yaz's onside kickoff against ECU? He also has great technique as a tackler, and doesn't try to blow up ball carriers, but quietly and cleanly takes them down. He's definitely become an asset for the Bobcats.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Paul Graham
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/21/2014 12:54:07 PM 
Bobcatzblitz wrote:
Devin Bass not a D1 kick returner?? I assume you paid no attention to Ohio football this year because he was leading the conference for awhile.


An avg of 22.1 yards/return is not good. At least, compared to prior years. Harden had a worse year (2009?), but then improved quite a bit the next season. So perhaps that will happen to Bass too.

But this was a historically bad year for kickoff returns. No one can doubt that.
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SouthernCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/21/2014 1:35:33 PM 
Mike Johnson wrote:


Concededly, Ohio has had some fine DBs in recent years. To me, though, the best Ohio defensive backfield during the last 15 or so seasons was one including Tevell Jones, Dennis Fitzgerald, Brandon Cade and Sean Williams. Jones was marvellously athletic and is among Ohio's career leader in picks. Fitzgerald with his hard hits used to scare the bejabbers out of opponents' WRs.



Mark Stubbs instead of Williams. He was the backup.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/21/2014 2:03:49 PM 
Paul Graham wrote:
An avg of 22.1 yards/return is not good. At least, compared to prior years. ....


Leading kick returners by year (10 or more):
2005 - Mayle 27.2
2006 - Mayle 20.5, Garrett 25.0, Team 20.7
2007 - Abrams 26.3, Garrett 26.7, Team 25.1
2008 - Garrett 26.9, Flintall 28.3, Harden 23.6, Team 23.6
2009 - Garrett 27.0, Flintall 17.1, Team 20.8
2010 - Harden 20.6, Posey 22.2, Team 21.3
2011 - Harden 25.8, Brown 21.6, Team 21.6
2012 - Patterson 24.2, Hammonds 20.2, Team 21.5
2013 - Carpenter 23.3, Bass 22.1, Team 20.1

Here are the Solich-era stats for various returners with over 5 returns in their career:

        # Returns   Tot Yds    TDs   Avg   Position
Garrett    82         2185      3    26.6     RB
Abrams     30          777      1    25.9     RB
Mayle      35          859      1    24.5     WR
Patterson  32          741      1    23.2     RB
Flintall   26          590      1    22.7     RB
Harden     62         1405      1    22.7     RB
Brown      15          337      0    22.5     RB
Posey      21          470      0    22.4     DB
Hughes      5          109      0    21.8     DB
Bass       25          541      0    21.6     DB
L. Smith    6          128      0    21.3     WR
Hammonds   12          242      0    20.2     RB
Clark       9          175      0    19.4     WR
Price      10          179      0    17.9     WR

It's true that it's been awhile since Ohio has had a kick returner like Chris Garrett. Daz is the closest thing to it at the moment. It's also true that Bass is on the low side, but really, there isn't much difference once you drop below the top few players, as barely over a yard separates Landon Smith in 11th from LJ Flintall  in 5th.

I also note that 6 of the top 7 returners were running backs, and DBs were generally below them, with WR mostly lower. Perhaps we'll find some new star kick returners in Dorian Brown, Maleek Irons, and Robbie Walker. I rather think we will, actually.

Last Edited: 1/21/2014 2:08:21 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/21/2014 2:13:21 PM 
This should have been a banner year returning kicks given how much in-game experience we were getting. (ba-dum- pshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh).

I'll be here all week.
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allen
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  Message Not Read  RE: Special Teams and Secondary
   Posted: 1/21/2014 6:57:30 PM 
Concededly, Ohio has had some fine DBs in recent years. To me, though, the best Ohio defensive backfield during the last 15 or so seasons was one including Tevell Jones, Dennis Fitzgerald, Brandon Cade and Sean Williams. Jones was marvellously athletic and is among Ohio's career leader in picks. Fitzgerald with his hard hits used to scare the bejabbers out of opponents' WRs.

They were a great secondary, but Like Bynum and TJ Wright add Dennis Fitzgeral and Brandon Cade and that is heck of a secconday. Maybe we could let nobody hit harder than Tom Carder play strong safety.


Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes
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