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Topic:  OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"

Topic:  OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/21/2014 9:37:51 AM 
This was an issue in a couple of college games last year.  According to the Findlay Courier, for this season, if one team has a 30-pt lead in the second half, the clock keeps running.  Doesn't say if they stop the clock for injury timeouts.  I can see why they'd do it, but I really don't like it.  Last year, one of our area high schools blew at least a 4-TD lead in the second half and lost.  I'd keep it as the coaches' prerogative.  If they want a rule, maybe up it to 40 pts, or make it applicable only in the 4th qtr.


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Mike Coleman
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/21/2014 1:09:15 PM 
Good gosh a mighty.

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davepi2
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/21/2014 1:15:07 PM 
I don't like the idea either in most cases. They have had a mercy rule for a long time in Columbus already. I daughter went to Centennial High School and I went to a lot of games where the 4th quarter was either shortened to 9 minutes, the clock kept running or both. In 2008 Centennial lost to Beechcroft 96-0. Nobody wanted that game to be played regulation. Beechcroft actually score 102 points but the Beechcroft coach asked the ref's to take the last touchdown down(fumble recovered in endzone) and place the ball on the one. 4 knees taken from that point.
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UpSan Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/21/2014 1:26:51 PM 
I'm all for it. There are virtually no cases where a team down by 30 in the second half is going to have any chance to come back. There are a few exceptions, of course, but not many. There are so many of these awful blowouts every week that this was absolutely needed. Neither team gets much out of a few extra minutes when the teams are terribly mismatched. Everyone there just wants it end as soon as possible.
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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/21/2014 2:20:02 PM 
I'm torn on this. On the one hand, the huge blowouts teach an important lesson: Just because things look bad now (i.e. you're losing), it doesn't mean that they can't get worse (i.e. you get embarrassed). Don't like it? Get out or get your act together. That being said, with injury concerns being what they are its probably a good rule change
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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/21/2014 3:29:23 PM 
If scores are that lopsided in HS football, there's probably a big physical factor involved. And that's dangerous. These are HS kids. No need to risk injury if the score is lopsided -- especially when the other team is likely bigger and faster. And there's also the frustration factor on the losing team/dominance factor on the winning team that actually could lead to some really unsportsmanlike conduct.

Hey, I'm all for playing it out in the pros and high-level college. I don't like this not running up the score in the NFL or not stealing a base with a 5-run lead in MLB. At that level, you are there to compete.

 
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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/21/2014 9:43:33 PM 
I never understood folks and their, "it teaches them a life lesson" - "they need to learn to toughen up" crap.  In the games I've witnessed that are so lopsided as to warrant running the clock/shortening the game, never have I seen the kids give up.  And they get back out there Monday and practice yet again...trying to get better.  That says more about their character than the score Friday night.

Also, as stated above, often they are simply out manned physically.  Keep in mind it is also often times with larger schools (more player, fresher players) beating up on out numbered opponents.  And fatigue contributes to injury. 
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/21/2014 11:08:08 PM 
I think the mercy rule should only start after 223 points, in honor of the brave lads of Cumberland College who in 1916 put together a 14-man team (basically an intramural team) to play this scheduled game after their school had dropped football the previous season.  Cumberland's baseball team had drubbed GT the previous season by 22-0 and this was, in part, a payback game by none other than Head Coach John Heisman, who was also GT's baseball coach.

 
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Jeff Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/22/2014 10:14:49 AM 
I can see the value of this rule on the basis of personal experience...

A long, long time ago (i.e., 1962) I was a senior playing football for Jacksonville-Trimble HS (AKA J-T, or Trimble, for short), one of two high schools that were consolidated in 1967 (the other being Glouster HS) to form the current Trimble HS. During the previous decade, neither Trimble nor Glouster had much success on the football field (except for Trimble's 1960 season in which we were 5-3), both of them regularly getting blown out by their conference rivals and OOC opponents alike on a regular basis. (The most competitive game either team had every year was when we played each other.)

The next to last game for us (Trimble) for the 1962 season matched us against Belpre, a conference rival (South East Ohio Buckeye League, or SEOBL). At that time Ohio schools were classified by size as Class A, AA, or AAA, with A being the smallest schools. Trimble was Class A, Belpre AA. The Trimble team was never very strong or numerous, but by this point in the 1962 season the team had been decimated by attrition to the point that we were able to take only 14 players to Belpre, a school that regularly dressed 80+ players for a football game (to talk about a mismatch).

Of course the game was a total massacre. Because we had such a weak team, we could not possibly mount a running game, and were forced to pass on every play, and of course this scheme was not successful either. The point here being, of course, that, because we passed every play and the clock stopped for every incomplete pass, the game stretched on and on well beyond the time it should have ended and put us all at serious risk for injury. A "mercy rule" here would have been the humane solution. (Of course we should have just forfeited the game, but our pride would not let us do that.)

Interestingly, the following week, the same 14 players went out and held the conference champion, The Plains, scoreless in the first half of our final game, although The Plains scored several times in the second half to defeat us.

Last Edited: 5/22/2014 10:54:19 PM by Jeff Johnson


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Bobcatbob
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/22/2014 11:49:57 AM 
I think you have to decide if you believe that one or two shortened games in a year is going to have an impact on all the other good things that winning and losing an athletic contest teaches kids the rest of the year.  I think not.

I also think the running clock idea is much preferable to the softball/baseball type mercy rule where you simply stop playing and eat your embarassment.  (Though I know of no other practical solution in untimed games.)

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davepi2
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/22/2014 1:24:52 PM 
wow interesting story about only 14 players. I remember when Columbus Centennial would only drew 22 or 23 for road games and half the players weren't any bigger then me. On the college side I went to the Oberlin-Wittenberg game last year and Oberlin only dressed 35 players while Wittenberg dressed well over 100.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/22/2014 10:57:23 PM 
Very interesting story JJ.  I can see where you are coming from.  I also see that you are about my age.  I was a senior at AHS in 1962.  While I understand your points, I would also say that I think you guys learned something by making a valiant attempt in your the struggle against Belpre.  As the old Nebraska saying goes, "in the Deed the Glory"!
 
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/23/2014 9:05:13 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Very interesting story JJ.  I can see where you are coming from.  I also see that you are about my age.  I was a senior at AHS in 1962.  While I understand your points, I would also say that I think you guys learned something by making a valiant attempt in your the struggle against Belpre.  As the old Nebraska saying goes, "in the Deed the Glory"!
 
English (auto-detected) » Hungarian
 

I also have mixed emotions about this, except from an injury perspective. The safety of the players is the most important thing. Other than that, there are lessons to be learned, and even small victories to be had, even from bad losses.

The worst loss I was ever a part of happened to be in an intermural basketball game. Our team was very bad, and we knew it, so we seeded ourself in League 18 of 18. Even then we were winless, but we were competitive in most games. Fresh off a loss to the Lilliputians, in which our only decent player was hurt, our next foe was a sandbagging team that was quite good, but poor sports. Not content with just seeding themselves in the lowest league so that they could win easily, they wanted to embarrass us by scoring 100 in a short intermural game, so they used a full court press and fast break the entire game. At the half we trailed 56-16, and we knew we could expect more of the same in the second half. We were not willing to resign ourselves to letting them have their way, so we set a new goal for the second half - keeping them under 100. Thus, for the entire second half we went into a 4 corners stall, and never attempted a shot. Frustrated, they fouled us if we didn't turn the ball over fast enough,  In the end we lost 92-28, and left feeling victorious, having accomplished our diminished goal.  Had we kept them under 100 only because the officials accelerated the clock, we would have had nothing good about that day.

I think that in most cases a true slaughter can be avoided if the better team shows a bit of class.  They don't need to trip over imaginary defenders, which just adds insult to injury. Instead they can have people play the wrong positions, and/or run the same play over and over.  If it is still out of hand, shortening the clock is probably not a bad thing because it's a sign that things are so uneven that someone might get hurt.

Last Edited: 5/23/2014 9:08:27 AM by L.C.


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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/23/2014 9:45:04 AM 
Thanks for the stories. I certainly have a few of my own, but it's interesting to see the difference in personalities that people show at these lopsided games--both players and fans. The most recent example I have: my youngest daughter recently visited Cincinnati for a tournament with her U11 soccer team, which is actually a fairly decent team. We opened against the host team, who proceeded to absolutely slaughter us. 

What was most annoying, however, were the parents LOUDLY whooping and cheering on EVERY goal. Even when they went up 9-1 they hollered as though they just broke a 1-1 tie. It was equally bad when they went up 10-1, 11-1, all the way to 14-1 before time expired.

All I could think of was "Act like you've been there before." It was the perfect quote for that situation. They were clearly better than we were, but continued to pound the ball into the net at every opportunity. To me, that's classless. The coach can easily call for "five passes before a shot," or "no shots from inside the 18," or only shoot with your "off" foot. Something.
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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/23/2014 9:59:06 AM 
Louisville, almost Buffalo, Bowling Green, Kents.


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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/23/2014 10:15:14 AM 
Similar situation. Back in the late 70s I coached a high school level Military Community team in Europe. We started with about 20 players but as we entered the playoffs reassignments brought us down to 15. We won our Corps championship and earned the chance to play another Corps championship team. Our opponents arrived in two buses and talking to their coach I learned his running back was the All Europe 100 meter champion. Well, at half we trailed 40-0. In the second half their stud back only played defense and their coach restricted his running toward my best players and the game finished 46-6. He could have named the score. He let the second half be competitive which helped my players walk off with their heads up. Their were lots of lessons learned that day. Most involving respect.

Last Edited: 5/23/2014 10:17:40 AM by Bcat2


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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/23/2014 10:50:01 AM 
L.C. wrote:
... Instead they can have people play the wrong positions, and/or run the same play over and over.  ...


Bcat2 wrote:
...Well, at half we trailed 40-0. In the second half their stud back only played defense and their coach restricted his running toward my best players and the game finished 46-6. He could have named the score....

Thank you for a perfect example of how to win a lopsided game with class. If all coaches and players had this kind of class, there would be no need for, nor call for, a "Mercy Rule".

Last Edited: 5/23/2014 10:54:45 AM by L.C.


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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/25/2014 10:05:27 AM 
ALl for this, but feel 30 is just a tad low, that's only 4 scores. Most of your real lopsided games are far worse than that at half-time. The real losers here are the young kids on the bench who just lost significant PT.
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flbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/25/2014 11:09:14 AM 
35 pts down here in Florida
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/25/2014 11:30:05 AM 
L.C. wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Very interesting story JJ. I can see where you are coming from. I also see that you are about my age. I was a senior at AHS in 1962. While I understand your points, I would also say that I think you guys learned something by making a valiant attempt in your the struggle against Belpre. As the old Nebraska saying goes, "in the Deed the Glory"! Afrikaans Albanian Arabic Armenian Azerbaijani Basque Belarusian Bulgarian Catalan Chinese (Simplified) Chinese (Traditional) Croatian Czech Danish Detect language Dutch English Estonian Filipino Finnish French Galician Georgian German Greek Haitian Creole Hebrew Hindi Hungarian Icelandic Indonesian Irish Italian Japanese Korean Latin Latvian Lithuanian Macedonian Malay Maltese Norwegian Persian Polish Portuguese Romanian Russian Serbian Slovak Slovenian Spanish Swahili Swedish Thai Turkish Ukrainian Urdu Vietnamese Welsh Yiddish ⇄ Afrikaans Albanian Arabic Armenian Azerbaijani Basque Belarusian Bulgarian Catalan Chinese (Simplified) Chinese (Traditional) Croatian Czech Danish Dutch English Estonian Filipino Finnish French Galician Georgian German Greek Haitian Creole Hebrew Hindi Hungarian Icelandic Indonesian Irish Italian Japanese Korean Latin Latvian Lithuanian Macedonian Malay Maltese Norwegian Persian Polish Portuguese Romanian Russian Serbian Slovak Slovenian Spanish Swahili Swedish Thai Turkish Ukrainian Urdu Vietnamese Welsh Yiddish English (auto-detected) » Hungarian

I also have mixed emotions about this, except from an injury perspective. The safety of the players is the most important thing. Other than that, there are lessons to be learned, and even small victories to be had, even from bad losses.

The worst loss I was ever a part of happened to be in an intermural basketball game. Our team was very bad, and we knew it, so we seeded ourself in League 18 of 18. Even then we were winless, but we were competitive in most games. Fresh off a loss to the Lilliputians, in which our only decent player was hurt, our next foe was a sandbagging team that was quite good, but poor sports. Not content with just seeding themselves in the lowest league so that they could win easily, they wanted to embarrass us by scoring 100 in a short intermural game, so they used a full court press and fast break the entire game. At the half we trailed 56-16, and we knew we could expect more of the same in the second half. We were not willing to resign ourselves to letting them have their way, so we set a new goal for the second half - keeping them under 100. Thus, for the entire second half we went into a 4 corners stall, and never attempted a shot. Frustrated, they fouled us if we didn't turn the ball over fast enough, In the end we lost 92-28, and left feeling victorious, having accomplished our diminished goal. Had we kept them under 100 only because the officials accelerated the clock, we would have had nothing good about that day.

I think that in most cases a true slaughter can be avoided if the better team shows a bit of class. They don't need to trip over imaginary defenders, which just adds insult to injury. Instead they can have people play the wrong positions, and/or run the same play over and over. If it is still out of hand, shortening the clock is probably not a bad thing because it's a sign that things are so uneven that someone might get hurt.


No mixed feelings here. I oppose such mercy rules which seemingly are becoming more common.

As L.C.has observed, a class coach can avoid embarrassing opponents. My head coach was one such class man. E.G. we were leading an opponent 38-0 at the half. On the first play from scrimmage in the second half, we scored and it was 46-0. That was our first team's last play. Game's final: 46-0.

Yes, I know that all coaches don't exhibit class, but then that too is part of life.


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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/25/2014 1:45:38 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Thanks for the stories. I certainly have a few of my own, but it's interesting to see the difference in personalities that people show at these lopsided games--both players and fans. The most recent example I have: my youngest daughter recently visited Cincinnati for a tournament with her U11 soccer team, which is actually a fairly decent team. We opened against the host team, who proceeded to absolutely slaughter us. 

What was most annoying, however, were the parents LOUDLY whooping and cheering on EVERY goal. Even when they went up 9-1 they hollered as though they just broke a 1-1 tie. It was equally bad when they went up 10-1, 11-1, all the way to 14-1 before time expired.

All I could think of was "Act like you've been there before." It was the perfect quote for that situation. They were clearly better than we were, but continued to pound the ball into the net at every opportunity. To me, that's classless. The coach can easily call for "five passes before a shot," or "no shots from inside the 18," or only shoot with your "off" foot. Something.

When I was that age playing soccer, the team I was on was very good. In our regular league, there was a 6-goal differential MAX on scoring. So 6-0 was fine, but 7-0 and the penalty was a forfeit for the winning team.

This meant when we went up 6-0, which often happened in the first half of play, we had to start playing keep-away from the other team instead of trying to score. If by some fluke we ended up getting on a breakaway, we would literally turn around or intentionally blow it to avoid forfeiting the game.

In some cases, we were good enough to pretty much maintain absolute possession of the ball. I always felt this embarrassed the opposing team just as much as scoring another goal would have. With that said, I know going up 10-11 zip wasn't something anyone wanted to see.

I don't really have an answer on how to avoid the issue, because sometimes in sports you are just going to have teams that are not equally matched in ability level. I think it is a terrible idea to tell kids not to play their hardest, but at the same time some common sense needs to be applied and common sense isn't easy to legislate into league or state rules.

It would certainly be better in these situations if parents and spectators watching used some common sense on cheering in blowout games.


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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/25/2014 5:40:10 PM 
Mike Johnson wrote:
,,,a class coach can avoid embarrassing opponents. ...Yes, I know that all coaches don't exhibit class, but then that too is part of life.

I think this is correct, which then brings us back to the question, can you force class through rule changes, and should you? As I said, I have feelings in both directions.

The worst possible solution is one like the soccer rule that Optimist describes Talk about embarrassing the losers, that would be awful! In football the dominant team should not be throwing the deep ball on every down, trying to score as many times as possible, but I also would hate to see them start tripping over yardlines, which would be an equal insult and humiliation, perhaps a bigger one.


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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/25/2014 7:00:38 PM 
The Optimist wrote:
[
This meant when we went up 6-0, which often happened in the first half of play, we had to start playing keep-away from the other team instead of trying to score. If by some fluke we ended up getting on a breakaway, we would literally turn around or intentionally blow it to avoid forfeiting the game.
 

I agree this would be equally humiliating to the losing team. I don't have answers, but I think a general lack of class is pretty apparent in a lot of these lopsided contests. To Mike's point, however, you can't just legislate out of the that. It's life.

Last year, my son's high school football team was getting it's tail beat by our arch rival. Down 52-13 with about 90 seconds remaining on the clock, we held them to a fourth and short deep in their own territory. On the next play, the opposing team lined up to punt, but then faked the punt and picked up the first. After that, they kneeled on it to end the game.

Our coach was irate, and confronted their coach after the game about the fake punt. The other coach claimed he was just trying to keep the ball out of our hands and end the game.

Do you go for a fake punt when you're up 39 points with under two minutes to play? 

 
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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/25/2014 7:59:11 PM 
These are perfect situations for coaches to play their second and third stringers.

Southern Cal would bring their back-ups in with about 90 seconds to go in games in which they were up about 30.  If I went to practice every day as a back-up and gave my all and the coach didn't give the back-ups the field with 5-6 minutes (or more) to go when up by 30 or more, I'd be teed off.  Gotta reward guys for their hard work when ya get a chance.

 


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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: OHSAA adopts "Mercy Rule"
   Posted: 5/25/2014 8:05:34 PM 
That's a tough call, Robert. If I were the coach, I probably wouldn't have called the fake punt, but I see his point. If he had punted, the other team might have run numerous passing plays, and the game might have gone on much longer. The way he did it, the game ended quickly, and he didn't try to score after that.

Actually a similar thing occurred in an Ohio game not that long ago. In 2011 Ohio was leading Marshall 37-7 with about 2 minutes left in the 3rd quarter, and Hershey came in to punt.  When Marshall didn't cover him, since he had a permanent green light, he took it on himself to make the first down, which highly offended the Marshall fans. 

There are always going to be plays where the losing side thinks the winner is trying to run up the score, and the winner had no such intention. As another example, I remember a play where the offense called run after run up the middle. The losing team finally put 11 in the box, and rushed them all. The 3rd string QB did what he was trained to do when he read that - audibled into a pass to the wide receiver that was not even covered. The winning coach apologized for the TD, but explained that the possibility of that sequence of events had never occurred to him - the loser blitzing everyone, and the 3d string QB as a consequence audibiling into the obvious play.


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