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Topic:  Arkley's articles on foes

Topic:  Arkley's articles on foes
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/1/2015 12:20:05 PM 
Arkley is beginning a series of articles on the upcoming foes this fall, starting with Idaho.
http://tinyurl.com/p6n6xra

It is interesting to see the extent to which Paul Petrino has gone the JUCO route. He brought in 16 JUCOs last year, and 12 more this year. On the one hand that can provide a quick boost, but on the other hand, it means a shortage of young players moving up through the system.

If you take too many JUCO players, you eventually can have trouble getting to 85 players on scholarship. As an extreme example, if you took 25 JUCO players a year, all with 2 to play 2, you'd have only have 50 guys on scholarship at any given time. Worse, none of them would have more than 1 year in the system, so they would all be learning the system, and getting used to each other. Maintaining continuity is difficult this way.

Akron has gone this route, too, but to a lesser degree. It definitely can give you a quick fix, but is it a lasting fix? When I see a program take this route, I watch to see what happens. Often they get a 1-2 year boost, then by year 4 they are back where they started, or worse. Of course, if they coach can get a new job by then, it is someone else that has to deal with the problem.

It was also interesting to learn that the Idaho field is indoors, in a fascinating building known as the Kibbie Dome, which also is their basketball arena. It only seats 16,000, the smallest in FBS, but the "dome" is actually an engineering marvel, an arched structure spanned with wood joists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbie_Dome

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/1/2015 1:37:14 PM 
L.C. wrote:
. . . It was also interesting to learn that the Idaho field is indoors, in a fascinating building known as the Kibbie Dome, which also is their basketball arena. It only seats 16,000, the smallest in FBS, but the "dome" is actually an engineering marvel, an arched structure spanned with wood joists.


If we are going to continue to play November weekday night games, I propose we start a fund-raising project to "dome" Peden! ;-)

Last Edited: 7/1/2015 1:38:30 PM by OhioCatFan

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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/1/2015 1:44:36 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Arkley is beginning a series of articles on the upcoming foes this fall, starting with Idaho.
http://tinyurl.com/p6n6xra

It is interesting to see the extent to which Paul Petrino has gone the JUCO route. He brought in 16 JUCOs last year, and 12 more this year. On the one hand that can provide a quick boost, but on the other hand, it means a shortage of young players moving up through the system.

If you take too many JUCO players, you eventually can have trouble getting to 85 players on scholarship. As an extreme example, if you took 25 JUCO players a year, all with 2 to play 2, you'd have only have 50 guys on scholarship at any given time. Worse, none of them would have more than 1 year in the system, so they would all be learning the system, and getting used to each other. Maintaining continuity is difficult this way.

Akron has gone this route, too, but to a lesser degree. It definitely can give you a quick fix, but is it a lasting fix? When I see a program take this route, I watch to see what happens. Often they get a 1-2 year boost, then by year 4 they are back where they started, or worse. Of course, if they coach can get a new job by then, it is someone else that has to deal with the problem.

It was also interesting to learn that the Idaho field is indoors, in a fascinating building known as the Kibbie Dome, which also is their basketball arena. It only seats 16,000, the smallest in FBS, but the "dome" is actually an engineering marvel, an arched structure spanned with wood joists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbie_Dome


I'm assuming Petrino is most likely doing the JUCO thing with more of a "win now" attitude rather than build the program up. I can't imagine that's where he's looking to set up shop for a while.

Last Edited: 7/1/2015 1:46:03 PM by GoCats105
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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/1/2015 11:39:50 PM 

Is there a limit to the # of schollies that can be given in a year?

If not, then you can give 25 juco schollies a year, supplement with 8-10 four year schollies and it's no problem.

Last Edited: 7/1/2015 11:40:18 PM by Monroe Slavin

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/1/2015 11:53:58 PM 
GoCats105 wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Arkley is beginning a series of articles on the upcoming foes this fall, starting with Idaho.
http://tinyurl.com/p6n6xra

It is interesting to see the extent to which Paul Petrino has gone the JUCO route. He brought in 16 JUCOs last year, and 12 more this year. On the one hand that can provide a quick boost, but on the other hand, it means a shortage of young players moving up through the system.

If you take too many JUCO players, you eventually can have trouble getting to 85 players on scholarship. As an extreme example, if you took 25 JUCO players a year, all with 2 to play 2, you'd have only have 50 guys on scholarship at any given time. Worse, none of them would have more than 1 year in the system, so they would all be learning the system, and getting used to each other. Maintaining continuity is difficult this way.

Akron has gone this route, too, but to a lesser degree. It definitely can give you a quick fix, but is it a lasting fix? When I see a program take this route, I watch to see what happens. Often they get a 1-2 year boost, then by year 4 they are back where they started, or worse. Of course, if they coach can get a new job by then, it is someone else that has to deal with the problem.

It was also interesting to learn that the Idaho field is indoors, in a fascinating building known as the Kibbie Dome, which also is their basketball arena. It only seats 16,000, the smallest in FBS, but the "dome" is actually an engineering marvel, an arched structure spanned with wood joists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbie_Dome


I'm assuming Petrino is most likely doing the JUCO thing with more of a "win now" attitude rather than build the program up. I can't imagine that's where he's looking to set up shop for a while.



The guy loves the JUCO route period.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/2/2015 12:04:21 AM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
Is there a limit to the # of schollies that can be given in a year?

If not, then you can give 25 juco schollies a year, supplement with 8-10 four year schollies and it's no problem.

Yes, the limit is 25 scholarships a year. Sometimes you see teams with more than 25, but that's for one of several reasons. First, there may be some non-qualifiers in the group. Second, if a player enrolls in January, which JUCOs ofter do, he can count towards the prior year, assuming the prior year wasn't already at 25.

BillyTheCat wrote:
The guy loves the JUCO route period.

Indeed.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/2/2015 10:22:31 AM 
Considering they're 43-136 (.240) over the past 15 years, I don't think anybody at Idaho really cares whether he's building a long-term program. Plus, he's in the third year of his contract, and I imagine the pressure is building to win -- especially given his 2-21 record the first two seasons.

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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/2/2015 4:22:27 PM 
Anyone have any sense of how good redhawk is going to be this season?

I gather that their coach has it together, recruiting and coaching...just my off-hand impression.

I'm guessing it would be a mistake to think that our game with them this year will be an easy W.

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/2/2015 4:29:08 PM 
Miami lost a lot from last year. They have been recruiting better, but my feeling is that they are probably still a year or two away. They are a unanimous pick for last in the East, for what little that is worth. We'll see what Arkley has to say when he gets to them.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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OhioBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/2/2015 6:01:19 PM 
Idaho has been recruiting JUCO's heavy for years now, this is nothing new. I have a friend went to Idaho and he used to joke that the Vandals were the "varsity" JUCO at the FBS level.

I went with my cousin to the BG – Idaho game several years ago at the Kibbie Dome. It's a very unique setting for an FBS football game. Heck, it's a very unique setting for ANY kind of football game for that matter. I have been to dome stadiums for NFL games and dome stadiums for college games such as Syracuse, but the Kibbie Dome has a much different feel. The stadium itself almost looks like a giant barrel was cut in half and laid on the ground. It has sort of a cavernous feel with seating only down the sidelines on both sides. The concourses with the concessions and restrooms were pretty bland and they ran behind the walls of the seating. There was a modern section near midfield on the one side that they had recently renovated, and they put some translucent panels on the end zone walls to allow some natural light to come through to brighten the place up a little. The goalposts are also mounted on the endzones walls. I didn't dislike it as much as I thought I would, but I wouldn't want it as my home stadium either, but it certainly was interesting to see a game in it.

Last Edited: 7/2/2015 6:04:42 PM by OhioBobcat
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/3/2015 11:47:36 AM 

Could one of the mods find and post some photos of the Idaho dome -- both inside and out? I appreciate the verbal descriptions, but as that old Chinese proverb says, "A picture beats a thousand words."

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Joe McKinley
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/3/2015 12:02:50 PM 
OhioBobcat wrote:
Idaho has been recruiting JUCO's heavy for years now, this is nothing new. I have a friend went to Idaho and he used to joke that the Vandals were the "varsity" JUCO at the FBS level.

I went with my cousin to the BG – Idaho game several years ago at the Kibbie Dome. It's a very unique setting for an FBS football game. Heck, it's a very unique setting for ANY kind of football game for that matter. I have been to dome stadiums for NFL games and dome stadiums for college games such as Syracuse, but the Kibbie Dome has a much different feel. The stadium itself almost looks like a giant barrel was cut in half and laid on the ground. It has sort of a cavernous feel with seating only down the sidelines on both sides. The concourses with the concessions and restrooms were pretty bland and they ran behind the walls of the seating. There was a modern section near midfield on the one side that they had recently renovated, and they put some translucent panels on the end zone walls to allow some natural light to come through to brighten the place up a little. The goalposts are also mounted on the endzones walls. I didn't dislike it as much as I thought I would, but I wouldn't want it as my home stadium either, but it certainly was interesting to see a game in it.


This sounds a lot like the arena at East Tennessee State in Johnson City. When Ohio played hoops there in 2011 the Bucs no longer had football, but had used that facility for it. They're bringing football back, but building a small stadium.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/4/2015 4:24:43 PM 
OhioBobcat wrote:
... The stadium itself almost looks like a giant barrel was cut in half and laid on the ground. It has sort of a cavernous feel with seating only down the sidelines on both sides. The concourses with the concessions and restrooms were pretty bland and they ran behind the walls of the seating. There was a modern section near midfield on the one side that they had recently renovated, and they put some translucent panels on the end zone walls to allow some natural light to come through to brighten the place up a little. The goalposts are also mounted on the endzones walls. I didn't dislike it as much as I thought I would, but I wouldn't want it as my home stadium either, but it certainly was interesting to see a game in it.

The more I think about your description, it sounds like an IPF with some seating down the sidelines. Is it high enough inside that punts won't hit the rafters?

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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colobobcat66
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/4/2015 10:54:29 PM 
L.C. wrote:
OhioBobcat wrote:
... The stadium itself almost looks like a giant barrel was cut in half and laid on the ground. It has sort of a cavernous feel with seating only down the sidelines on both sides. The concourses with the concessions and restrooms were pretty bland and they ran behind the walls of the seating. There was a modern section near midfield on the one side that they had recently renovated, and they put some translucent panels on the end zone walls to allow some natural light to come through to brighten the place up a little. The goalposts are also mounted on the endzones walls. I didn't dislike it as much as I thought I would, but I wouldn't want it as my home stadium either, but it certainly was interesting to see a game in it.

The more I think about your description, it sounds like an IPF with some seating down the sidelines. Is it high enough inside that punts won't hit the rafters?

Can't wait to see the place in a few months.
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OhioBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/4/2015 11:14:14 PM 
Joe McKinley wrote:
OhioBobcat wrote:
Idaho has been recruiting JUCO's heavy for years now, this is nothing new. I have a friend went to Idaho and he used to joke that the Vandals were the "varsity" JUCO at the FBS level.

I went with my cousin to the BG – Idaho game several years ago at the Kibbie Dome. It's a very unique setting for an FBS football game. Heck, it's a very unique setting for ANY kind of football game for that matter. I have been to dome stadiums for NFL games and dome stadiums for college games such as Syracuse, but the Kibbie Dome has a much different feel. The stadium itself almost looks like a giant barrel was cut in half and laid on the ground. It has sort of a cavernous feel with seating only down the sidelines on both sides. The concourses with the concessions and restrooms were pretty bland and they ran behind the walls of the seating. There was a modern section near midfield on the one side that they had recently renovated, and they put some translucent panels on the end zone walls to allow some natural light to come through to brighten the place up a little. The goalposts are also mounted on the endzones walls. I didn't dislike it as much as I thought I would, but I wouldn't want it as my home stadium either, but it certainly was interesting to see a game in it.


This sounds a lot like the arena at East Tennessee State in Johnson City. When Ohio played hoops there in 2011 the Bucs no longer had football, but had used that facility for it. They're bringing football back, but building a small stadium.


ETSU's seating in that facility is opposite of how Idaho's is. ETSU's main grandstands are/were parallel to the end walls. Idaho's seating is down along the sides of the facility with the end zones up against the end walls.
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OhioBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/4/2015 11:28:31 PM 
L.C. wrote:
OhioBobcat wrote:
... The stadium itself almost looks like a giant barrel was cut in half and laid on the ground. It has sort of a cavernous feel with seating only down the sidelines on both sides. The concourses with the concessions and restrooms were pretty bland and they ran behind the walls of the seating. There was a modern section near midfield on the one side that they had recently renovated, and they put some translucent panels on the end zone walls to allow some natural light to come through to brighten the place up a little. The goalposts are also mounted on the endzones walls. I didn't dislike it as much as I thought I would, but I wouldn't want it as my home stadium either, but it certainly was interesting to see a game in it.

The more I think about your description, it sounds like an IPF with some seating down the sidelines. Is it high enough inside that punts won't hit the rafters?


The roof of the Kibbie Dome is very high, there's a ton of room overhead to punt. The roof actually arches way above the playing field. There's actually a lot of room inside the Kibbie Dome, and most of it is actually unused space. You have the playing field and the seating straight down the sidelines and the rest of the building is essential space above. When you walk inside it, it has the feeling of a blimp hangar. The field runs the length of the inside of the facility with very little room behind the ends zone (which is why the goal posts are mounted to the walls). The capacity is very small as it's only about 17,000 I believe, but it can get decently loud if the crowd has something to cheer about. In the BG-UI game we went to it was about 80% full and the crowd was loud early (it was the season opener for both teams) but BG jumped all over Idaho early and took the crowd right out of the game. It's a unique and fun place to see a game and I expect Ohio to cruise to a win.

Last Edited: 7/4/2015 11:41:14 PM by OhioBobcat
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Ryan Carey
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/5/2015 11:43:02 AM 
 

   

Last Edited: 7/5/2015 11:43:31 AM by Ryan Carey

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/5/2015 11:52:05 AM 
Thanks, Ryan! That's a pretty cool building.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Arkley's articles on foes
   Posted: 7/5/2015 7:36:02 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
The guy loves the JUCO route period.

In thinking more about it, the Juco route can work well. You may not have as much depth, but you don't need as much depth. Part of the reason you need 85 players when working with Freshmen is that most Freshmen aren't ready to play yet, so there are a lot of guys on the roster who won't be playing.

After looking into it, I think that the bigger problem for Idaho isn't the large number of JUCO players, it is that they may have picked the wrong JUCO players.


First let's look at Ohio, which has done pretty well with JUCO players in recent years. Here are their JUCO players the last three years:

2013 - McLeod, Tautuaiki
2014 - Layton, Bonnstetter, Boland
2015 - Robbins, Cooper, Anderson

McLeod is graduated (but was a starter), while Robbins hasn't arrived yet. Of the other six, four are starters (Tautuaiki, Layton, Bonstetter, and Anderson) and one is a backup (Cooper). Only Boland isn't on the top two strings (and he was hurt). All told, of the 7 players who have arrived, five are, or have been starters, while six have made the two deep. That is 71% starters, and 86% on the two deep, which is a very good success rate, certainly better than their success rate in the 2005-2010 period.



Now lets look at Idaho, first the 2013 class, which may have been pattially recruited by Petrino's predecessor: Epps, Milan, Rice, Westlake, Cable
The 2013 class was very good. There are three starters (Epps, Milan, Westlake), and one backup (Cable), while Rice is gone. [The Freshmen recruited in 2013 were also very good, by the way. Of 17 Freshmen from 2013, there are five starters and 7 second teamers).]

Now the 2014 class, which was not very good at all. It has 17 players: Antoine, Ayers, Edwards, Fawkes, Hampton, Hatcher, Johnson, Martial, Olson, Penny, Perry, Peterson, Rufas, Steele, Sule, Torrence, Travillon
From these 17 players:
1. Two did not qualify in 2014, and were re-recruited in 2015 (Hampton, Peterson)
2. Three starters (Edwards, Fawkes, Penny)
3. Three backups (Antoine, Ayers, Johnson)
4. Three others are on the roster, but not on the 2-deep (Martial, Sule, Travillon)
5. Six are not on the roster, so they are either no-shows, or have left the program (Hatcher, Olson, Perry, Rufas, Steele, Torrence).

Then there is the 2015 class, not all of whom are on campus yet, but which appears to be better than the 2014 class already. There are fourteen JUCOs, Donaldson, Erbes, Fletcher, Hampton, Hazewood, Hightower, Jones, Peterson, Smith, Stuart, Taylor, Trotter, White, Wiltz.
From these 14 players:
1. Three starters (Hazewood, Erbes, Trotter)
2. Three backups (Hightower, Taylor, Wiltz)
3 Five more are on the roster, so presumably were in the Spring camp, but did not make the two-deep (Fletcher, Hampton, Peterson, Smith, White)
4. Three are not on the roster yet (Donaldson, Jones, Stuart)

Excluding the 3 players that haven't arrived yet from the 2015 class, there are 25 JUCO players in the 2014-2015 classes. Of those there 6/25 or 24% are starters, and 12/25 or 48% are on the two deep.

Last Edited: 7/5/2015 7:38:46 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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