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Topic:  539-541-48

Topic:  539-541-48
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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  539-541-48
   Posted: 8/10/2015 4:53:08 PM 
539-541-48 (-2). This needs to be the year. When Coach Solich took over it was 467-485-48 (-18). Enough already. Been playing with this for the last two years. Hello seniors, hows about your class be the one to finally get Ohio back to the positive in overall wins?

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/10/2015 5:14:45 PM 
Independent databases have Ohio worse than what Ohio shows. They show Ohio at 537-541-48
http://tinyurl.com/nwc8y23
http://tinyurl.com/nwc8y23

or 537-547-47
http://tinyurl.com/nce4bls

The reason is that there are a number of disputed games in the distant past. In some cases it is not clear whether a game was actually played, as one team claims the game exists, while the other does not. In other cases both sides claim wins.

Last Edited: 8/10/2015 5:15:29 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/10/2015 5:29:39 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Independent databases have Ohio worse than what Ohio shows. They show Ohio at 537-541-48
http://tinyurl.com/nwc8y23
http://tinyurl.com/nwc8y23

or 537-547-47
http://tinyurl.com/nce4bls

The reason is that there are a number of disputed games in the distant past. In some cases it is not clear whether a game was actually played, as one team claims the game exists, while the other does not. In other cases both sides claim wins.


Are we counting the games against the YMCA and the High Schools?
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/10/2015 5:59:07 PM 
One game that is still not recorded correctly in some old databases is the 1897 12-0 win over WVU in Athens. I actually found this game in microfilmed newspaper reports as a student. Ohio did not have it recorded at all, and WVU had it recorded as a victory for them in Morgantown, as I recall. I sent copies of all the old clippings to Bill Rohr, the AD, and he had it added to the OHIO record book and sent the documentation to WVU and they corrected their records. But, I still see some online databases every now and then that have copied old paper records on this game that were in error. That's just one example of what L.C. is talking about. Another mystery game is one that was supposedly played in Cambridge that shows up in some places but that doesn't appear in any old papers that managed to make it to microfilm. There are several other such "problem games" in the first two decades or so of OHIO football.

I'm not sure if the official OHIO all-time records include the games against non-collegiate competition. I suspect they do, since virtually every college at that point played these kinds of games. If other schools report them, the fair thing to do would be to report them so that you have an apples-to-apples comparison. In fact, if you read the newspaper reports at the time, some of the YMCA games and those against certain high schools were considered among the tougher games on a collegiate schedule.

Here's a link where you can read more details on some early OHIO football history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_Bobcats_football

Last Edited: 8/10/2015 6:04:05 PM by OhioCatFan

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/10/2015 6:11:09 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Are we counting the games against the YMCA and the High Schools?

Yes, of course, as well as games against foes such as the Deaf and Dumb Institute (which is now renamed in the more recent media guides as D&D Institute). There aren't enough of those games to make much difference though, especially since Ohio didn't win them all.

Against High Schools (4-1-2 combined):
Athens 1-0
Columbus East 1-0
Parker 1-0-1
Parkersburg 1-1-1

Against Y Teams (3-2 combined):
Chillicoth 1-0
Dayton 1-0
Parkersburg AC 0-2
Parkersburg Y 1-0-0

If you pulled out all the games against teams that are now Division II or III, or which don't play football at all anymore, it would make a lot more difference. All schools, however, have those same types of games in their history.

Last Edited: 8/10/2015 6:13:08 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/10/2015 6:22:45 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Independent databases have Ohio worse than what Ohio shows. They show Ohio at 537-541-48
http://tinyurl.com/nwc8y23
http://tinyurl.com/nwc8y23

or 537-547-47
http://tinyurl.com/nce4bls

The reason is that there are a number of disputed games in the distant past. In some cases it is not clear whether a game was actually played, as one team claims the game exists, while the other does not. In other cases both sides claim wins.


Independent = Wikipedia. Perhaps the SID could edit the site.

Here is hoping Coach Solich stays till the wins overwhelm the disputes. Though, at a "double-time."

Last Edited: 8/10/2015 6:29:05 PM by Bcat2

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/10/2015 7:31:35 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:
Independent = Wikipedia. Perhaps the SID could edit the site.

No doubt he could. He could also edit his own records. Which one is right?

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/10/2015 8:44:34 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
Independent = Wikipedia. Perhaps the SID could edit the site.

No doubt he could. He could also edit his own records. Which one is right?



One is the official Ohio record, which is also reflected in the official MAC Record Book so until someone makes the SID change it I will say 539-541-48. Fight a duel over it, no, congratulate the team that goes from here to an overall winning record, yes.

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/10/2015 10:52:06 PM 
It could be just me but I've never heard of a ceremony or an award for breaking the .500 all time win barrier at a school. TCU is below .500 all time I believe but that fact didn't rub off on the performance the past 10 years.

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/10/2015 11:15:31 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
Independent = Wikipedia. Perhaps the SID could edit the site.

No doubt he could. He could also edit his own records. Which one is right?

One is the official Ohio record, which is also reflected in the official MAC Record Book so until someone makes the SID change it I will say 539-541-48. Fight a duel over it, no, congratulate the team that goes from here to an overall winning record, yes.

Well, I hate to say this, but if you add up the year by year records in the Media guide, you will find that you actually get 538-541-48. Similarly, if you add up the coaches from the media guide, you will also get 538-541-48.

Now, Wikipedia is quite confused. The page I linked to shows 537-542-48, a difference of one game from the Ohio Media guide. However, if you click on Ohio on that page, you get this page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_Bobcats_football
At the top it says that Ohio is 532-534-48, which doesn't include last year, so it would be 538-540-48, a slightly different number. Then, as if that weren't enough, if you page down to the coach-by-coach results, it says at the bottom that Ohio is 530-535-48, but adding in last year, you are 536-541-48, a different number yet. For even more fun, add up their numbers for coaches, and you get 532-535-47, which, including last year gives you 538-541-47. That last one nearly matches the Ohio Media Guide, save for the record of Karl Cove in 1900, where Wiki is missing a tie.

So, thus far we have:
539-541-48 your number from the Media guide
538-541-48 what you get if you add up the records in the media guide
537-542-48 The number on the first wiki page I linked to
538-540-48 the (adjusted) number at the top of the second wiki page
536-541-48 the (adjusetd) number at the bottom of the second wiki page
538-541-47 the (adjusted) sum of the records of the coaches in the wiki

Not confused yet? OK, now let's try to find actual games that are in dispute, rather than addition errors. Let's compare year by year the Ohio Media Guide with the CFB Data Warehouse to find them. cfbdatawarehouse shows the following games that the Ohio Media guide does not show:
1896 - a second game with Marietta on 11-13-1896, a 22-6 loss
1901 - a loss to the Deaf-Mute Institute 34-0
1902 - a second game with Marietta, a 22-0 loss
1903 - a loss to West Virginia Wesleyan on 11-23-03 by the score of 15-7 (but this game may have been the Ohio JV)

They also show different results in two games:
1898 - Ohio Media Guide claims a 12-12 tie versus UC. UC claims a 12-0 win in their media guide. cfbdatawarehouse accepts the UC version
1915 - Ohio media guide claims a 5-0 win over Transylvania in a game played 9-25-1915 in Lexington, while cfbdatawarehouse shows a Transylvania win 16-0.

So, if you take the 538-541-48 record that the Media guide really adds up to, change one win to a loss, and a tie to a loss, and then add 4 more losses, you get 537-547-47, which is what cfbdatawarehouse shows.

Personally I'd just ignore all the goofy numbers on wikipedia, and start with 538-541-48, and then try to resolve these 6 disputed games to get the real record. Best case Ohio is 538-541-48, and worst case they are 537-547-47, but probably they are somewhere in between.

Last Edited: 8/10/2015 11:20:36 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/10/2015 11:25:43 PM 
Uncle Wes wrote:
It could be just me but I've never heard of a ceremony or an award for breaking the .500 all time win barrier at a school. TCU is below .500 all time I believe but that fact didn't rub off on the performance the past 10 years.


Another brick in the wall. Starting with winning at all, bottom course of bricks.. Winning vs Pitt & PSU X2 bricks. Going to a bowl X5. East Division Champs X3. Winning bowls X2. Classes graduating without experiencing a losing record 2012 & 2013, 2014 X3 courses, Bobcats in the League X?. -18 to a winning program overall, another course. Some act like a MACC is the whole wall, not true.

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/10/2015 11:35:52 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
Independent = Wikipedia. Perhaps the SID could edit the site.

No doubt he could. He could also edit his own records. Which one is right?

One is the official Ohio record, which is also reflected in the official MAC Record Book so until someone makes the SID change it I will say 539-541-48. Fight a duel over it, no, congratulate the team that goes from here to an overall winning record, yes.

Well, I hate to say this, but if you add up the year by year records in the Media guide, you will find that you actually get 538-541-48. Similarly, if you add up the coaches from the media guide, you will also get 538-541-48.

Now, Wikipedia is quite confused. The page I linked to shows 537-542-48, a difference of one game from the Ohio Media guide. However, if you click on Ohio on that page, you get this page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_Bobcats_football
At the top it says that Ohio is 532-534-48, which doesn't include last year, so it would be 538-540-48, a slightly different number. Then, as if that weren't enough, if you page down to the coach-by-coach results, it says at the bottom that Ohio is 530-535-48, but adding in last year, you are 536-541-48, a different number yet. For even more fun, add up their numbers for coaches, and you get 532-535-47, which, including last year gives you 538-541-47. That last one nearly matches the Ohio Media Guide, save for the record of Karl Cove in 1900, where Wiki is missing a tie.

So, thus far we have:
539-541-48 your number from the Media guide
538-541-48 what you get if you add up the records in the media guide
537-542-48 The number on the first wiki page I linked to
538-540-48 the (adjusted) number at the top of the second wiki page
536-541-48 the (adjusetd) number at the bottom of the second wiki page
538-541-47 the (adjusted) sum of the records of the coaches in the wiki

Not confused yet? OK, now let's try to find actual games that are in dispute, rather than addition errors. Let's compare year by year the Ohio Media Guide with the CFB Data Warehouse to find them. cfbdatawarehouse shows the following games that the Ohio Media guide does not show:
1896 - a second game with Marietta on 11-13-1896, a 22-6 loss
1901 - a loss to the Deaf-Mute Institute 34-0
1902 - a second game with Marietta, a 22-0 loss
1903 - a loss to West Virginia Wesleyan on 11-23-03 by the score of 15-7 (but this game may have been the Ohio JV)

They also show different results in two games:
1898 - Ohio Media Guide claims a 12-12 tie versus UC. UC claims a 12-0 win in their media guide. cfbdatawarehouse accepts the UC version
1915 - Ohio media guide claims a 5-0 win over Transylvania in a game played 9-25-1915 in Lexington, while cfbdatawarehouse shows a Transylvania win 16-0.

So, if you take the 538-541-48 record that the Media guide really adds up to, change one win to a loss, and a tie to a loss, and then add 4 more losses, you get 537-547-47, which is what cfbdatawarehouse shows.

Personally I'd just ignore all the goofy numbers on wikipedia, and start with 538-541-48, and then try to resolve these 6 disputed games to get the real record. Best case Ohio is 538-541-48, and worst case they are 537-547-47, but probably they are somewhere in between.


Hate to be like Monroe, but, "One is the official Ohio record, which is also reflected in the official MAC Record Book so until someone makes the SID change it I will say 539-541-48. Fight a duel over it, no, congratulate the team that goes from here to an overall winning record, yes." & "Here is hoping Coach Solich stays till the wins overwhelm the disputes. Though, at a "double-time."



"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/11/2015 12:12:21 AM 
What makes Ohio's Media guide "Official"? Is it more "official" than Cincinnati's media guide, which disagrees about the result from 1898? Now, given that Marietta is Division III, and that Transylvania doesn't even play football anymore, perhaps Ohio's media guide is somehow more official than than theirs. Nevertheless, given the small number of disputed games, it seems to me that someone could look the games up in newspapers of the time.

I did do a little research on the alleged second game with Marietta in 1896, and I believe that it did happen, by the way, so I believe that Ohio's media guide is wrong on that one. I didn't research the other 5, however.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/11/2015 2:57:25 AM 
Why are you guys re-hashing history. Not permitted. If we hadn't blown chunks for the last 2 1/2 years, we'd be over .500.

Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!


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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/11/2015 7:54:47 AM 
L.C. wrote:
What makes Ohio's Media guide "Official"? Is it more "official" than Cincinnati's media guide, which disagrees about the result from 1898? Now, given that Marietta is Division III, and that Transylvania doesn't even play football anymore, perhaps Ohio's media guide is somehow more official than than theirs. Nevertheless, given the small number of disputed games, it seems to me that someone could look the games up in newspapers of the time.

I did do a little research on the alleged second game with Marietta in 1896, and I believe that it did happen, by the way, so I believe that Ohio's media guide is wrong on that one. I didn't research the other 5, however.



Sorry to not be clear. I do not mean Ohio's record is more "official" than another schools. However, 539-541-48 is currently the record published by Ohio and the MAC. I encourage you to make any argument you wish to the SID for your own satisfaction. I will not join you in this battle. I remain confident that the wins will soon overwhelm the disputes, making the matter of being a winning program mute. For me this is bigger than any of the individual wins along the way.

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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oldkatz
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/11/2015 8:46:24 AM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
Why are you guys re-hashing history. Not permitted. If we hadn't blown chunks for the last 2 1/2 years, we'd be over .500.


Ah, Mo....the voice of reason?? C'mon man!

"All my inside sources tell me I have no inside sources." Salvatore "money bucks" Mafiosiano.
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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/11/2015 9:37:52 AM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
Why are you guys re-hashing history. Not permitted. If we hadn't blown chunks for the last 2 1/2 years, we'd be over .500.


And if we had won every game we'd be national champions.
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/11/2015 11:36:53 AM 
cc-cat wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:
Why are you guys re-hashing history. Not permitted. If we hadn't blown chunks for the last 2 1/2 years, we'd be over .500.


And if we had won every game we'd be national champions.


No we wouldn't have.
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/11/2015 11:55:48 AM 
Simple solution: go 13-1 and we're above .500 in everybody's book.

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/11/2015 12:37:36 PM 
Pataskala wrote:
Simple solution: go 13-1 and we're above .500 in everybody's book.


14-0. Winning record for everybody.

I've seen crazier things happen.

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/11/2015 12:51:49 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:
Sorry to not be clear. I do not mean Ohio's record is more "official" than another schools. However, 539-541-48 is currently the record published by Ohio and the MAC. I encourage you to make any argument you wish to the SID for your own satisfaction. I will not join you in this battle. I remain confident that the wins will soon overwhelm the disputes, making the matter of being a winning program mute. For me this is bigger than any of the individual wins along the way.

And apparently I'm not being clear:
1. There are substantial doubts about some of the games in Ohio's history.
2. Even if you ignore the contested games, and accept Ohio's version of every game, the totals do not add up to 539-541-48. (If you doubt me, try it yourself, or, if you prefer, I will be happy to send you a spreadsheet. The numbers add up to 538-541-48 whether I add up the seasons, or whether I add up the records of all the coaches.)

Ergo, making a big deal out of a number that is almost certainly wrong makes no sense, and even if the number was right, the achievement is meaningless anyway.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/11/2015 1:26:32 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
Sorry to not be clear. I do not mean Ohio's record is more "official" than another schools. However, 539-541-48 is currently the record published by Ohio and the MAC. I encourage you to make any argument you wish to the SID for your own satisfaction. I will not join you in this battle. I remain confident that the wins will soon overwhelm the disputes, making the matter of being a winning program mute. For me this is bigger than any of the individual wins along the way.

And apparently I'm not being clear:
1. There are substantial doubts about some of the games in Ohio's history.
2. Even if you ignore the contested games, and accept Ohio's version of every game, the totals do not add up to 539-541-48. (If you doubt me, try it yourself, or, if you prefer, I will be happy to send you a spreadsheet. The numbers add up to 538-541-48 whether I add up the seasons, or whether I add up the records of all the coaches.)

Ergo, making a big deal out of a number that is almost certainly wrong makes no sense, and even if the number was right, the achievement is meaningless anyway.


L.C. You have invested a great deal in this. I suggest you share your research with the SID. As I have said, this is not an issue I will battle over, for or against. I will make a note about it being meaningless and will not bother the board about it again.

Thanks.

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/11/2015 6:59:16 PM 
C Money wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:
Why are you guys re-hashing history. Not permitted. If we hadn't blown chunks for the last 2 1/2 years, we'd be over .500.


And if we had won every game we'd be national champions.


No we wouldn't have.

Yes we would. Without question. If we won every game we played we would be national champs. But we didn't so it doesn't matter. Just as the "collapse" over the past 2.5 years is simply summer talk and doesn't matter. Time to root the boys on.

Last Edited: 8/11/2015 7:05:16 PM by cc-cat
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/11/2015 7:13:57 PM 
cc-cat wrote:
... Time to root the boys on.

I'm looking forward to this season more than any for a few years. I think they are going to surprise a lot of people. Sometimes in the fall you wonder if it's a bad offense going against a bad defense, or a good offense going against a good defense. This year I'm pretty sure I know; it's a good offense going against a good defense.

I especially like the attitude that is reflected in the creation of the offensive line twitter account: https://twitter.com/OhioU_OLine
plus the #LinemanLunch clips they repost. I don't know whether to credit Coach Johnson, or the Seniors, or both, but there is definitely some pride in the line that has been missing the last couple years, and that bodes well for a very good season.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: 539-541-48
   Posted: 8/11/2015 9:38:40 PM 
cc-cat wrote:
C Money wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:
Why are you guys re-hashing history. Not permitted. If we hadn't blown chunks for the last 2 1/2 years, we'd be over .500.


And if we had won every game we'd be national champions.


No we wouldn't have.

Yes we would. Without question. If we won every game we played we would be national champs. But we didn't so it doesn't matter. Just as the "collapse" over the past 2.5 years is simply summer talk and doesn't matter. Time to root the boys on.



1998 Tulane, 1999 Marshall, 2006 Boise State, 2008 Utah, and 2009 Boise State all disagree with you. All finished bowl season undefeated. None were top 4 heading into bowl season, so none would have been included in the playoff.

We can control what we can control. Winning games, yes. Winning conference titles, yes. Playing well and representing OUr fair university well, yes.

But not winning national championships.
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