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Topic: RE: Housing-gate continues

Topic: RE: Housing-gate continues

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/18/2018 12:11:42 PM

Out of curiosity, is there anybody who doesn't think the administration is blatantly lying about the "law" requiring them to seperate children from their families at the border?

Strikes me as a particularly ugly lie. Regardless of how one feels about illegal immigration, I'm sure we can all agree that treating immigrants and asylum seekers with humanity and compassion is a core value of who we should be as people, right?

DelBobcat
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/18/2018 5:25:48 PM

concentration camp

: a camp where persons (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, or refugees) are detained or confined

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Trump's America--where the United States of America separates children (some as young as 8 months) from their parents and places them in concentration camps.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/18/2018 10:36:58 PM

https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp

"Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order. Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without benefit either of indictment or fair trial. Concentration camps are to be distinguished from prisons interning persons lawfully convicted of civil crimes and from prisoner-of-war camps in which captured military personnel are held under the laws of war. They are also to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons."

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

cc-cat
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Location: matthews, NC
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/18/2018 10:47:25 PM

the trump administration has said they are applying this process for two reasons. 1. as a deterrent to others. yet even their own statistics show it is not a deterrent. and 2. as a means to force democrats to agree to fund his $25 billion wall. that�s correct. they are saying you fund the wall and we will stop the policy. in essence you want us to stop taking these kids and holding them and american morals hostage then you must pay our $25 billion ransom. in layman terms it is called kidnapping. and here i thought donnie promised mexico would pay for his toy wall.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 1:23:39 AM

OhioCatFan wrote:

I think the term "concentration camp" is hyperbolic. But the fact that the only argument anybody is willing to make in support of this policy is that it's not as bad as concentration camps is telling.

This is ugly and inhumane. We should be ashamed of ourselves. There is no policy-based justification for this. It's the racist, anti-immigrant rhetoric of the campaign trail come to life. That Trump's base has embraced this is a national disgrace and anybody who continues to support him is due a moral reconning.

rpbobcat
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 6:50:02 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

Perhaps I'm missing something,but we are talking about people who broke the law,by trying to enter the country illegally ?

Last time I looked,that's a crime.

The separation policy goes back to at least October,so the people trying to cross the border illegally know the consequences of their actions.

Under President Obama the Government tried to keep families together by housing them in detention centers.Funny,never heard them labeled internment or concentration camps.

Then the courts ruled against that policy.That led to "catch and release".
Get a ticket and then disappear.

There's a very simple solution to the issue of separating families.
Don't try to enter the U.S. illegally.

Last Edited: 6/19/2018 7:22:49 AM by rpbobcat

DelBobcat
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 9:20:01 AM

rpbobcat wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

Give me a break. This is it guys. This is the one thing I thought there's no way you'd bend over backwards to support, but I was wrong. This is beyond the pale. Border agents are lying to parents and saying they're just taking the kids away for questioning and will bring them back. Then after the children are removed Border Patrol agents are telling moms that their families are over and they'll never see their kids again. There are even cases where people are coming to ports of entry and presenting themselves for asylum, which you might realize IS NOT BREAKING THE LAW--and they are still having their kids removed from them.

Let's be very clear: There is no law that requires immigrant families to be separated. The decision to charge everyone crossing the border with illegal entry, and the decision to charge asylum seekers in criminal court rather than waiting to see if they qualify for asylum, are explicit policies of the Trump administration. Full stop. You're okay with that? You think that's a good solution? Do you have zero empathy?

And there's this: It's actually illegal to keep an immigrant in detention to in an effort to deter other immigrants from crossing the border illegally, which is EXACTLY WHAT JEFF SESSIONS SAID THEY ARE DOING. Party of family values my ass. Yes, let's prosecute criminals who commit crimes--starting with Donald Trump, Jeff Sessions, Stephen Miller, John Kelly and everyone else associated with this demonic, disgusting regime.

Even Laura Bush is calling this what it is:

"Our government should not be in the business of warehousing children in converted box stores or making plans to place them in tent cities in the desert outside of El Paso. These images are eerily reminiscent of the Japanese American internment camps of World War II, now considered to have been one of the most shameful episodes in U.S. history."

Seriously, when is enough enough?

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

cc-cat
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 9:57:23 AM

Sessions also acknowledged that those seeking asylum have and will continue to have their children separated from them.

cc-cat
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 10:00:45 AM

rpbobcat wrote:

There's a very simple solution to the issue of separating families.
Don't try to enter the U.S. illegally.

Can you cite me other instances where children are taken away from their parents because their parents commit a first-time misdemeanor - and that this is also done without due process?

cc-cat
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 10:02:16 AM

The twist in this thread is astounding. There are folks that are insulted, disturbed, and I would even say repulsed by black athletes kneeling during the national anthem, yet are not insulted, disturbed, or repulsed by children being taken from their parents. Amazing. Disturbing.

rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 10:12:47 AM

DelBobcat wrote:

First off,according to a couple of news reports I heard,you can't just present yourself at a border and request asylum ,there is a procedure you're supposed to follow.

In fact,according to theses same reports,the people at the border were told what procedures they needed to follow to seek asylum.
They refused.

So they are breaking the law.

The people crossing the border illegally are criminals, plain and simple.

They know what they are risking by committing that crime.

We tried "catch and release".
It failed.

Like I said,there's a simple solution to this.
Don't enter the U.S. illegally.

If you want to immigrate to the States,or to seek asylum here,no problem,just follow the rules.

rpbobcat
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 10:15:08 AM

cc-cat wrote:

rpbobcat wrote:

There's a very simple solution to the issue of separating families.
Don't try to enter the U.S. illegally.

Can you cite me other instances where children are taken away from their parents because their parents commit a first-time misdemeanor - and that this is also done without due process?

As far as I know,if you are incarcerated for any offense ,you can't take your child with you to jail.

Happened to a friend of mine.
Got arrested for DUI.
His kid was in the car.
He called his wife to take his kid home.

As I understand it,that same option is available here.
If you've got relatives here,they can be given temporary custody.

Last Edited: 6/19/2018 10:25:33 AM by rpbobcat

bobcatsquared
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 4,516

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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 10:21:03 AM

But doesn't the bible say such actions are justified? Not unlike how some rationalized slavery as being OK?

The Sunday Dispatch had one of the best pieces I've read about our current president not written by Matt Taibbi:

http://www.dispatch.com/opinion/20180617/editorial-how-ma...

Keep in mind that this is not from the The Guardian or NY Times but from a media outlet that has leaned to the right for decades.

Last Edited: 6/19/2018 10:22:04 AM by bobcatsquared

cc-cat
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Location: matthews, NC
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 10:28:44 AM

If you are arrested for a misdemeanor you are issued a summons and released with a court date. You are not "incarcerated" from the moment of arrest. Further, that pesky document, The Constitution of the United States provides the right of due process to aliens (also affirmed by James Madison - that damn liberal, and has been upheld by the Supreme Court and his settled law - until the Trump Administration came along - Illegal or asylum be damn.

By then way, your friend was released the next day when he was no longer drunk - and probably stood in front of a judge and given the right to respond. Not held for days, weeks, months. Again, I will ask - name me an instance where an individual charged with a first time misdemeanor is held without bond and separated from their children from the moment of arrest. Or did your friend sit in jail for days, weeks, months?

Last Edited: 6/19/2018 10:33:45 AM by cc-cat

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 10:30:41 AM

rpbobcat wrote:

Perhaps I'm missing something,but we are talking about people who broke the law,by trying to enter the country illegally ?

Last time I looked,that's a crime.
[/QUOTE]

You are missing something. Historically, there have been designated points of entry for asylum seekers. It is perfectly legal to cross the border at designated points of entry and apply for asylum. This is the tract that the vast majority of immigrants from places like El Salvador and Guatemala -- countries that account for the majority of crossings at the southern border -- are taking. They are fleeing crime ridden countries where rape and murder is rampant and claiming attempting to seek asylum in the United States.

The Trump administration has turned immigrants following the rules and entering the country at ports of entry illegally away by the thousands. They have made it nearly impossible to immigrate legally, thus creating an influx of illegal crossings and then prosecuting those immigrants and separating their families.

It's inhumane. You can argue in favor of the law all you want, but we are treating the most vulnerable amongst us as less than people. It should make any moral person sick.

[QUOTE=rpbobcat]
The separation policy goes back to at least October,so the people trying to cross the border illegally know the consequences of their actions.
[/QUOTE]

This doesn't make it any less ugly. It's also morally repugnant. You're policy position here is that we should ask immigrants to choose between living in fear in countries with rampant murder and rape and being separated from their children. Your policy position, to be perfectly clear, is an attempt to create a fate for immigrants in the United States that is worse than rape and murder in El Salvador or Honduras.

We should probably just go ahead and get rid of the Statue of Liberty if that's who we are now.

[QUOTE=rpbobcat]
Under President Obama the Government tried to keep families together by housing them in detention centers.Funny,never heard them labeled internment or concentration camps.
[/QUOTE]

The ACLU sued him and won. The detention centers were deemed cruel and unusual punishment. Sorry that liberals were inconsistent. Does that alter the morality here in any way?

[QUOTE=rpbobcat]
Then the courts ruled against that policy.That led to "catch and release".
Get a ticket and then disappear.

There's a very simple solution to the issue of separating families.
Don't try to enter the U.S. illegally.
[/QUOTE]

The new engraving on the Statue of Liberty should read "Sorry that your country is a hell-scape, but we're no longer a city on the hill. Because something something jobs."

The same administration that lies about the crime rate and insists MS-13 is some grave national threat is forcing people seeking asylum from MS-13 to turn around or risk losing their children. Cool policy.

DelBobcat
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 10:34:20 AM

rpbobcat wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

Please cite these sources, because what you're saying is false. It is absolutely legal to present yourself at the border and request asylum. That's the LEGAL WAY TO DO IT!

"The Trump administration justifies its �zero tolerance� policy of prosecuting everyone who crosses into the US illegally � including asylum-seeking parents who are separated from their children by being placed in criminal jails � by saying that people who want asylum should seek it the �right way�: by presenting themselves at an official port of entry into the US (like an official road checkpoint at the US-Mexico border) rather than coming into the country illegally between checkpoints.

But some immigrants who try to seek asylum the �right way� are being turned away and told there�s no room for them now. And there�s evidence that border agents are physically blocking some asylum seekers from setting foot on US soil � in other words, from triggering a legal right to claim asylum in the US � to begin with."

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/5/17428640...

ALSO, despite your use of the horrible and inhumane term "catch and release" (Are we talking about humans or fish?) IT DID NOT FAIL. THERE IS NO IMMIGRATION CRISIS AT THE BORDER. THIS IS ALL MANUFACTURED BY A WANNABE DESPOT AND YOU'RE BUYING INTO IT. Arrests for illegal border crossings were at 1.6 million in 2000 and at 310,000 last year. They dropped throughout the Obama Administration. This is a solution (and a horrible, evil, disgusting one) looking for a problem.

Also, the Trump administration has all but ended other legal channels to seeking asylum or immigrating legally, so the COMPLETELY LEGAL step of presenting yourself at the border is ONE OF THE ONLY OPTIONS LEFT.

I never use all caps but this is disgusting. I feel like I'm screaming at a brick wall. The United States is on fire and we're all here watching it burn down.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

rpbobcat
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 10:36:29 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

rpbobcat wrote:

Perhaps I'm missing something,but we are talking about people who broke the law,by trying to enter the country illegally ?

Last time I looked,that's a crime.

You are missing something. Historically, there have been designated points of entry for asylum seekers. It is perfectly legal to cross the border at designated points of entry and apply for asylum. This is the tract that the vast majority of immigrants from places like El Salvador and Guatemala -- countries that account for the majority of crossings at the southern border -- are taking. They are fleeing crime ridden countries where rape and murder is rampant and claiming attempting to seek asylum in the United States.

The Trump administration has turned immigrants following the rules and entering the country at ports of entry illegally away by the thousands. They have made it nearly impossible to immigrate legally, thus creating an influx of illegal crossings and then prosecuting those immigrants and separating their families.

It's inhumane. You can argue in favor of the law all you want, but we are treating the most vulnerable amongst us as less than people. It should make any moral person sick.

rpbobcat wrote:

The separation policy goes back to at least October,so the people trying to cross the border illegally know the consequences of their actions.

This doesn't make it any less ugly. It's also morally repugnant. You're policy position here is that we should ask immigrants to choose between living in fear in countries with rampant murder and rape and being separated from their children. Your policy position, to be perfectly clear, is an attempt to create a fate for immigrants in the United States that is worse than rape and murder in El Salvador or Honduras.

We should probably just go ahead and get rid of the Statue of Liberty if that's who we are now.

rpbobcat wrote:

Under President Obama the Government tried to keep families together by housing them in detention centers.Funny,never heard them labeled internment or concentration camps.

The ACLU sued him and won. The detention centers were deemed cruel and unusual punishment. Sorry that liberals were inconsistent. Does that alter the morality here in any way?

rpbobcat wrote:

Then the courts ruled against that policy.That led to "catch and release".
Get a ticket and then disappear.

There's a very simple solution to the issue of separating families.
Don't try to enter the U.S. illegally.

The new engraving on the Statue of Liberty should read "Sorry that your country is a hell-scape, but we're no longer a city on the hill. Because something something jobs."

The same administration that lies about the crime rate and insists MS-13 is some grave national threat is forcing people seeking asylum from MS-13 to turn around or risk losing their children. Cool policy.

[/QUOTE]

Like I said,if someone wants to immigrate to the US,or seek asylum here,fine.

Just follow the rules.

That's what my relatives did.
I assume yours did to.

If you don't want to follow the rules,don't blame someone else for the consequences of your actions.

As far as illegal aliens affecting jobs,if you're here illegally you're not supposed to able to work.
In fact,whenever I hire anyone,they have to provide proof that they are allowed to work in the states.
So,if an illegal alien is working, its either "off the books".A crime for both the alien and the employer.
Or using false documents.
Another crime.

Last Edited: 6/19/2018 10:43:45 AM by rpbobcat

cc-cat
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Location: matthews, NC
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 10:38:11 AM

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\.

"But if you give in to my ransom and buy me a wall (but ultimately Mexico will pay for is - trust me), then we will end this policy - but I won't tolerate those son of a bitch players kneeling. Zero tolerance there as well."
'

cc-cat
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 11:04:08 AM

While some folks are disturbed by players kneeling, and others are disturbed by children being taken for preens who have committed as simple misdemeanor - perhaps we can all agree on on the following:

The administrations policy of separating children from parents legally seeking asylum is wrong - yes, the administration is doing this per Jeff Sessions and others. That is wrong,
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/19/politics/jeff-sessions-imm...

The administrations practice of shutting off locations assigned for asylum seekers is wrong - yes, the administration is doing this.
https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/whats-really-happening-... /

The separation of children and shipping of those seeking asylum to prison cells thousands of miles a way is wrong - yes, the administration is doing this.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/pramil... /

Yes- the above is happening. It must stop today. If you disagree I would love to hear why.

OUs LONG Driver
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Location: Copley, OH
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 11:06:43 AM

rpbobcat wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

rpbobcat wrote:

Perhaps I'm missing something,but we are talking about people who broke the law,by trying to enter the country illegally ?

Last time I looked,that's a crime.

rpbobcat wrote:

The separation policy goes back to at least October,so the people trying to cross the border illegally know the consequences of their actions.

rpbobcat wrote:

Under President Obama the Government tried to keep families together by housing them in detention centers.Funny,never heard them labeled internment or concentration camps.

The ACLU sued him and won. The detention centers were deemed cruel and unusual punishment. Sorry that liberals were inconsistent. Does that alter the morality here in any way?

rpbobcat wrote:

Like I said,if someone wants to immigrate to the US,or seek asylum here,fine.

Just follow the rules.

That's what my relatives did.
I assume yours did to.

If you don't want to follow the rules,don't blame someone else for the consequences of your actions.

As far as illegal aliens affecting jobs,if you're here illegally you're not supposed to able to work.
In fact,whenever I hire anyone,they have to provide proof that they are allowed to work in the states.
So,if an illegal alien is working, its either "off the books".A crime for both the alien and the employer.
Or using false documents.
Another crime.

[/QUOTE]

As a father of 2 young kids I find this entire policy and discussion so upsetting that I can't seem to form a post that I'd be comfortable with putting on the board. All I can say is I'm incredibly embarrassed for our country and truly disgusted of anyone who defends these actions.

cc-cat
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 11:38:26 AM

OUs LONG Driver wrote:

\As a father of 2 young kids I find this entire policy and discussion so upsetting that I can't seem to form a post that I'd be comfortable with putting on the board. All I can say is I'm incredibly embarrassed for our country and truly disgusted of anyone who defends these actions.

Aw come on Long Driver - you would jump at the chance to send your kids to summer camp:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/f49323ff-be21-3bc6-baa9-b301...

You can't make this shit up - And no - it can not be defended.

OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 13,466

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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 11:43:03 AM

A fairly reasoned perspective, I think, on this issue:

Alan Dershowitz: Mr. President, please end the policy of separating children from parents

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/06/18/alan-dershowitz...

Explore the Fox News apps that are right for you at http://www.foxnews.com/apps-products/index.html .

rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 1:00:48 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

The operative word here is "parents".

Apparently ,a number of the children in the detention centers,10,000 I believe was the number stated yesterday, were sent here unaccompanied, or with someone other then a parent or close relative.
That doesn't leave many options other then to "hold" them in a detention facility until they can locate a relative or send them back to their parents.

As far as the previous post about Laura Ingrahm referring to the detention centers as a summer camp.
That's not appropriate, but her comments are no worse then comparing them to Nazi Concentration Camps.

Last Edited: 6/19/2018 1:16:02 PM by rpbobcat

cc-cat
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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 1:19:34 PM

rpbobcat wrote:

The operative word here is "parents".

So you agree - a child brought with a parent should not be separated and someone processed for asylum should not be separated. We are making progress. Now if you agree with that we will move on to those brought under other circumstances.

Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 6,808

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RE: Housing-gate continues

Posted: 6/19/2018 1:25:29 PM

rpbobcat wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

As far as the previous post about Laura Ingrahm referring to the detention centers as a summer camp.
That's not appropriate, but her comments are no worse then comparing them to Nazi Concentration Camps.

Wow! Is it possible that those of your ilk can prsent an argument without justifying it based on what someone else said or did? Why not just say that laura in graham is flat out wrong. Period.

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