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Topic:  RE: Budget cuts

Topic:  RE: Budget cuts
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/13/2019 11:18:34 AM 
Will Akron be the largest university to fail?


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/13/2019 11:41:32 AM 
I don't think Akron will be allowed to fail. It's just too important to the economy of that region both in terms of churning out grads and providing employment. That said, radical things like merging with Kent State don't seem as far-fetched today as they did even a few years ago.
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/13/2019 12:30:17 PM 
There won't be any bloodletting now that the economy is booming. However, the next economic downturn could see things really turn ugly in Higher Education. We are all familiar with the private schools whose tuition is stuck between a rock and hard place; lower than elite prestigious schools with exorbitant endowments, but higher than state schools with lots of financial resources. They will be the first to face the grim reaper than comes the Akron's of the world. Lots of schools in Ohio and declining birth rates equals a reckoning. It won't stop with Ohio either, once the dominoes start to fall, they will be hard to stop.
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/13/2019 1:51:22 PM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
There won't be any bloodletting now that the economy is booming. However, the next economic downturn could see things really turn ugly in Higher Education. We are all familiar with the private schools whose tuition is stuck between a rock and hard place; lower than elite prestigious schools with exorbitant endowments, but higher than state schools with lots of financial resources. They will be the first to face the grim reaper than comes the Akron's of the world. Lots of schools in Ohio and declining birth rates equals a reckoning. It won't stop with Ohio either, once the dominoes start to fall, they will be hard to stop.


Those declining birth rates already are leading to dramatic declines in student enrollments in many communities. In my hometown, class sizes peaked in the 1970s, topping at about 280. This year's graduating class totaled about 120 - or the size of classes in the 1950s or the pre-baby boom classes. That trend doesn't bode well for colleges.



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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/13/2019 6:05:29 PM 
Mike Johnson wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
There won't be any bloodletting now that the economy is booming. However, the next economic downturn could see things really turn ugly in Higher Education. We are all familiar with the private schools whose tuition is stuck between a rock and hard place; lower than elite prestigious schools with exorbitant endowments, but higher than state schools with lots of financial resources. They will be the first to face the grim reaper than comes the Akron's of the world. Lots of schools in Ohio and declining birth rates equals a reckoning. It won't stop with Ohio either, once the dominoes start to fall, they will be hard to stop.


Those declining birth rates already are leading to dramatic declines in student enrollments in many communities. In my hometown, class sizes peaked in the 1970s, topping at about 280. This year's graduating class totaled about 120 - or the size of classes in the 1950s or the pre-baby boom classes. That trend doesn't bode well for colleges.


Yes and no Mike. The colleges that have something truly meaningful to offer will continue to attract students. Those who don't, won't. Just like sales - those who distinguish themselves from the competition and deliver a world class experience and great customer service will be fine.

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/14/2019 8:10:16 AM 
Mike Johnson wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
There won't be any bloodletting now that the economy is booming. However, the next economic downturn could see things really turn ugly in Higher Education. We are all familiar with the private schools whose tuition is stuck between a rock and hard place; lower than elite prestigious schools with exorbitant endowments, but higher than state schools with lots of financial resources. They will be the first to face the grim reaper than comes the Akron's of the world. Lots of schools in Ohio and declining birth rates equals a reckoning. It won't stop with Ohio either, once the dominoes start to fall, they will be hard to stop.


Those declining birth rates already are leading to dramatic declines in student enrollments in many communities. In my hometown, class sizes peaked in the 1970s, topping at about 280. This year's graduating class totaled about 120 - or the size of classes in the 1950s or the pre-baby boom classes. That trend doesn't bode well for colleges.


I still think that some deal could possibly made with OSU whereas they cap the size of their freshman classes at 6,000 as well as stopping the stockpiling kids at their branch campuses in exchange for some kind of special funding and flagship status from the state. That would be over 2,000 well qualified kids (25 to 28 ACT range) sent to other Ohio publics. While some might go out of state, I think most would end up at Ohio, Miami, UC etc).

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/17/2019 10:24:43 AM 
OUPride wrote:
Mike Johnson wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
There won't be any bloodletting now that the economy is booming. However, the next economic downturn could see things really turn ugly in Higher Education. We are all familiar with the private schools whose tuition is stuck between a rock and hard place; lower than elite prestigious schools with exorbitant endowments, but higher than state schools with lots of financial resources. They will be the first to face the grim reaper than comes the Akron's of the world. Lots of schools in Ohio and declining birth rates equals a reckoning. It won't stop with Ohio either, once the dominoes start to fall, they will be hard to stop.


Those declining birth rates already are leading to dramatic declines in student enrollments in many communities. In my hometown, class sizes peaked in the 1970s, topping at about 280. This year's graduating class totaled about 120 - or the size of classes in the 1950s or the pre-baby boom classes. That trend doesn't bode well for colleges.


I still think that some deal could possibly made with OSU whereas they cap the size of their freshman classes at 6,000 as well as stopping the stockpiling kids at their branch campuses in exchange for some kind of special funding and flagship status from the state. That would be over 2,000 well qualified kids (25 to 28 ACT range) sent to other Ohio publics. While some might go out of state, I think most would end up at Ohio, Miami, UC etc).



So in other words you want to tell students they cannot attend a school of their choice, even if qualified. Got it.
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/17/2019 12:45:38 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Mike Johnson wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
There won't be any bloodletting now that the economy is booming. However, the next economic downturn could see things really turn ugly in Higher Education. We are all familiar with the private schools whose tuition is stuck between a rock and hard place; lower than elite prestigious schools with exorbitant endowments, but higher than state schools with lots of financial resources. They will be the first to face the grim reaper than comes the Akron's of the world. Lots of schools in Ohio and declining birth rates equals a reckoning. It won't stop with Ohio either, once the dominoes start to fall, they will be hard to stop.


Those declining birth rates already are leading to dramatic declines in student enrollments in many communities. In my hometown, class sizes peaked in the 1970s, topping at about 280. This year's graduating class totaled about 120 - or the size of classes in the 1950s or the pre-baby boom classes. That trend doesn't bode well for colleges.


I still think that some deal could possibly made with OSU whereas they cap the size of their freshman classes at 6,000 as well as stopping the stockpiling kids at their branch campuses in exchange for some kind of special funding and flagship status from the state. That would be over 2,000 well qualified kids (25 to 28 ACT range) sent to other Ohio publics. While some might go out of state, I think most would end up at Ohio, Miami, UC etc).



So in other words you want to tell students they cannot attend a school of their choice, even if qualified. Got it.


Why is that so shocking. Any very selective school is already telling kids who would be able to succeed there to look elsewhere. Right now OSU is doing that with thousands of kids in the 25 to 27 ACT range. Shrink their freshman classes to 6K,and they'll just starting telling the same thing to some kids in the 27 to 29 range. Nothing fundamental will change. It'll just be a matter of degree.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/17/2019 12:56:08 PM 
No, those kids are being accepted to OSU, and will get a degree from OSU, why should OSU cap their enrollment? If itís working for them so be it. If itís working for the kids, then so be it.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/17/2019 1:00:14 PM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
I don't think Akron will be allowed to fail. It's just too important to the economy of that region both in terms of churning out grads and providing employment. That said, radical things like merging with Kent State don't seem as far-fetched today as they did even a few years ago.


I dunno, the state isn't going to prop up a school bleeding money forever. I'd consider a forced merger Akron failing. And that reminds me: Kent doesn't get enough credit for raising their profile the last 15 years.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/17/2019 2:08:27 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
No, those kids are being accepted to OSU, and will get a degree from OSU, why should OSU cap their enrollment? If itís working for them so be it. If itís working for the kids, then so be it.


But OSU is part of a larger public university system, and one that's been overbuilt. With challenging demographic trends, it's not working for the system as a whole for OSU to be taking in 7900 student freshman classes and stockpiling hundreds of other qualified kids at their branch campuses. OSU already rejects more applicants than it admits, so what's the great tragedy if they were to start drawing that line slightly more severely. They'd ratchet their selectivity up to Michigan's level, whoke the rest of the system would see an influx of a couple thousand well qualified kids. Win-win as I see it.
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/17/2019 3:09:07 PM 
JSF wrote:

I dunno, the state isn't going to prop up a school bleeding money forever. I'd consider a forced merger Akron failing. And that reminds me: Kent doesn't get enough credit for raising their profile the last 15 years.


I agree that Kent State has done incredible things - along with the city of Kent. It's a remarkable change from a couple decades ago.

I agree that Akron needs to right the ship or face massive changes (like a merger), but it's not like the state is propping them up any more than they do any other state school. State support is about 40% of their fiscal 2020 budget, which roughly correlates to enrollment (less funds when there are fewer students). https://www.uakron.edu/rab/docs/GeneralFundFY20Budget.pdf
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/17/2019 3:53:22 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Mike Johnson wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
There won't be any bloodletting now that the economy is booming. However, the next economic downturn could see things really turn ugly in Higher Education. We are all familiar with the private schools whose tuition is stuck between a rock and hard place; lower than elite prestigious schools with exorbitant endowments, but higher than state schools with lots of financial resources. They will be the first to face the grim reaper than comes the Akron's of the world. Lots of schools in Ohio and declining birth rates equals a reckoning. It won't stop with Ohio either, once the dominoes start to fall, they will be hard to stop.


Those declining birth rates already are leading to dramatic declines in student enrollments in many communities. In my hometown, class sizes peaked in the 1970s, topping at about 280. This year's graduating class totaled about 120 - or the size of classes in the 1950s or the pre-baby boom classes. That trend doesn't bode well for colleges.


Yes and no Mike. The colleges that have something truly meaningful to offer will continue to attract students. Those who don't, won't. Just like sales - those who distinguish themselves from the competition and deliver a world class experience and great customer service will be fine.



As I squint and peer into my crystal ball, here is what I see: a few years ago the WSJ reported that, on average, a half dozen shall small private colleges were closing annually private colleges were closing annually. I expect that to continue. I expect some weaker state-assisted schools to be forced to merge or dramatically to scale back offerings and staff. Could such a school with a few superior programs sustain itself? OU is likely best respected for its Scripps College, College of Medicine and sports management. Are they enough glue to hold the entire university together? If not, how much more glue would be needed and what programs would supply the additional glue? Which universities will be around for the duration? The elites with huge endowments and the most muscular state-assisteds - OSU, Michigan, Penn State, Wisconsin, Florida, and others of that ilk. Now my crystal ball is getting cloudy.

Last Edited: 6/17/2019 3:53:59 PM by Mike Johnson



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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/17/2019 6:32:10 PM 
OUPride wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
No, those kids are being accepted to OSU, and will get a degree from OSU, why should OSU cap their enrollment? If itís working for them so be it. If itís working for the kids, then so be it.


But OSU is part of a larger public university system, and one that's been overbuilt. With challenging demographic trends, it's not working for the system as a whole for OSU to be taking in 7900 student freshman classes and stockpiling hundreds of other qualified kids at their branch campuses. OSU already rejects more applicants than it admits, so what's the great tragedy if they were to start drawing that line slightly more severely. They'd ratchet their selectivity up to Michigan's level, whoke the rest of the system would see an influx of a couple thousand well qualified kids. Win-win as I see it.


Disagree, itís the flagship in the capital with a national reputation. They will not be cut to save others.

And a school like Akron has way more political clout in Columbus than we could ever hope for.

Last Edited: 6/17/2019 6:34:36 PM by BillyTheCat

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/18/2019 9:05:01 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
OUPride wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
No, those kids are being accepted to OSU, and will get a degree from OSU, why should OSU cap their enrollment? If itís working for them so be it. If itís working for the kids, then so be it.


But OSU is part of a larger public university system, and one that's been overbuilt. With challenging demographic trends, it's not working for the system as a whole for OSU to be taking in 7900 student freshman classes and stockpiling hundreds of other qualified kids at their branch campuses. OSU already rejects more applicants than it admits, so what's the great tragedy if they were to start drawing that line slightly more severely. They'd ratchet their selectivity up to Michigan's level, whoke the rest of the system would see an influx of a couple thousand well qualified kids. Win-win as I see it.


Disagree, itís the flagship in the capital with a national reputation. They will not be cut to save others.

And a school like Akron has way more political clout in Columbus than we could ever hope for.


I agree that OSU isn't going to do anything that isn't in OSU's interest. And considering that the bottom fifth of their freshman classes are the ones likely paying full tuition (and taking up a dorm bed for two years), they'd need to get something out of it along the lines of a funding model separate from the rest of the system to shrink down in any meaningful way, and I doubt the state is going to do that. Plus, with Miami Mike in the Governor's mansion, I don't see him allowing a development that would cause OSU to leave Miami in the dust even more from a rankings and selectivity perspective even if it made sense and benefited the overall university system.

Still, it would be nice if there was a way to free up 2000 to 2500 well qualified kids from OSU for the rest of the system.

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Buck.Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/18/2019 2:28:43 PM 
I never thought I would see the day where people are advocating for universities to cap enrollment numbers to play nice but here we are.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/21/2019 2:46:54 PM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
JSF wrote:

I dunno, the state isn't going to prop up a school bleeding money forever. I'd consider a forced merger Akron failing. And that reminds me: Kent doesn't get enough credit for raising their profile the last 15 years.


I agree that Akron needs to right the ship or face massive changes (like a merger), but it's not like the state is propping them up any more than they do any other state school. State support is about 40% of their fiscal 2020 budget, which roughly correlates to enrollment (less funds when there are fewer students). https://www.uakron.edu/rab/docs/GeneralFundFY20Budget.pdf


All right, did a little digging here. It gets pretty interesting and I think shows why Akron's position is a little more perilous.

First, the DDN has a good rundown of debt across the state: https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/debt-ohio-public-uni... /

Akron's debt is roughly double its endowment. That strikes me as a rather large red flag (compare to tOSU, which has debt less than 50% of its endowment despite more total debt). Miami's number is eyepopping and is larger than their endowment. They might be in trouble down the line.

Enrollment is down (down almost 10k or a third from 2010). Retention is steady, but the graduation rate is poor (45%, compare to Kent at 55% or OU at 67%). All of these point to being close to a death spiral if not already in one: https://www.ohio.com/news/20181205/financially-struggling...

Their acceptance rate is 96%, so I don't know what else they can do to attract more students. They're going to reduce the number of credits to some degrees, which doesn't inspire confidence. The InfoCision boondoggle must be a massive millstone for them. Are kids going to keep paying for debt service and an education that's not working for them?

Kent has a lot of debt and small endowment, so they'd best keep their growth going, or they'll find themselves in a similar situation.

Overall, the picture is pretty bleak across the state. Now I'm depressed.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/21/2019 5:11:58 PM 
Miami is turning into that neighbor who owns a Tesla but has three mortgages on the house.
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/21/2019 7:45:15 PM 
Brian Smith wrote:
Miami is turning into that neighbor who owns a Tesla but has three mortgages on the house.


If that pipeline of kids from the Chicago suburbs drys up, that bubble could burst hard. As much as they try, they can't duplicate it anywhere else in the country (OSU gets a higher % of their freshmen from the NE and West Coast than Miami, and they don't try half as hard at out of state recruiting), and if Miami's rankings continue to drop, their place as one of Chicago's safety schools might evaporate along with all that out of state tuition cash.

And I'm sure that a large part of that debt has been spent on building country club dorms, rec centers etc to attract the Chicago kids than on actual academics.
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 7/13/2019 10:02:51 AM 
Looks like Dick Vedder's dream scenario is being played out in Alaska with the Governor axing 40% of the University of Alaska's budget. But I'm sure that all those Alaska kids, particularly the poor and working class, will find it real easy to just go to a private university instead.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/07/10/u-alaskas-...
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 7/13/2019 10:25:46 AM 
OUPride, not sure what this has to do with Professor Vedder. The state has a host of problems with which to deal and declining oil revenues that once subsidized much of the state's budget. Recently, the Attorney General came to the state at the behest of elected and tribal leaders to declare a public emergency because so many rural towns were dealing crime and violence. Many towns have no police force and though alcohol is banned in most areas, it is smuggled in causing terrible problems, especially for women who all too often come under sexual assault.

The cost to bring in outside educators is immense. It is hard to keep teachers in rural areas. If you want to teach in Alaska, and you are from the lower 48, you have to pass a battery of psychological tests, since so many young people can't handle the cold and darkness that accompanies the Alaskan winters, especially in areas north of Anchorage. I met a few Alaskan educational administrators at various conferences I have attended and the stories they tell are really something. It is a very beautiful state, but a tough state in which to live and govern. It has it's share of problems, and the solutions to help those problems are tough as well.

Last Edited: 7/13/2019 10:27:30 AM by cbus cat fan

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 7/14/2019 1:57:40 PM 
cbus cat fan wrote:

so many young people can't handle the cold and darkness that accompanies the Alaskan winters, especially in areas north of Anchorage.



A bit O.T.

My wife and I have a friend who worked for the National Park Service.

They were originally from New Jersey.

He got offered posts in Hawaii or Alasaka.

He took Alaska.They wanted the "adventure".

They spent almost 20 years there.

His wife said the cold wasn't the problem as much as the dark.
She said the winters were depressing,and you never get used to it.

They were in Anchorage.
She said that,at the peak of winter,you got a few hours of daylight and that was it.

She also used to say that,for as cold as it gets in the winter,the bugs in the summer can be just as big an annoyance.






Last Edited: 7/15/2019 6:35:50 AM by rpbobcat

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 7/15/2019 4:33:02 PM 
The costs have gotten out of control and do kids really need a college degree to perform most jobs? When we were losing manufacturing jobs parents were telling their kids to go to college. Then the arms race began and staff, facilities and debt have spiraled out of control. With a plethora of college grads to pick from, employers started requiring degrees. They did because they could. You don't have to be Nostradamus to know where this is headed.
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 7/15/2019 6:05:34 PM 
Talk about an economic model that makes no sense. First off, there are a plethora of public and private higher education institutions to pick from in this country, so while the demand is high, the supply is even higher. Secondly, the number of adjunct professors is at an all time high and they make a fraction of the money that their tenured colleagues make. Therefore, most institutions are saving a boatload. Add to that many corporations pour millions of dollars into research programs which actually saves themselves money, which in turn helps Higher Ed.

Now we come to the strange topic of endowments which range from the hundreds of millions of dollars like our beloved Alma mater has, to billions of dollars that the Ivy League enjoys. Incidentally, little ole Dennison which has about 10% of our student body has a larger endowment than we do. Why don't they use this money to ease ridiculous tuition levels? For example, the Catholic Diocese of Wichita charges no tuition for their high schools because long ago they began an endowment fund, the first of it's kind. Yet, most Higher Ed institutions had endowment funds in place when the Wyandotte Tribe outnumbered Catholics, long before the Diocese of Wichita came into being. If the Diocese of Wichita can do it, so can Higher Ed. These endowments are a shell game, where students, parents, most professors and taxpayers come out the losers.

Last Edited: 7/15/2019 6:06:59 PM by cbus cat fan

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 7/15/2019 9:34:13 PM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
Talk about an economic model that makes no sense. First off, there are a plethora of public and private higher education institutions to pick from in this country, so while the demand is high, the supply is even higher. Secondly, the number of adjunct professors is at an all time high and they make a fraction of the money that their tenured colleagues make. Therefore, most institutions are saving a boatload. Add to that many corporations pour millions of dollars into research programs which actually saves themselves money, which in turn helps Higher Ed.

Now we come to the strange topic of endowments which range from the hundreds of millions of dollars like our beloved Alma mater has, to billions of dollars that the Ivy League enjoys. Incidentally, little ole Dennison which has about 10% of our student body has a larger endowment than we do. Why don't they use this money to ease ridiculous tuition levels? For example, the Catholic Diocese of Wichita charges no tuition for their high schools because long ago they began an endowment fund, the first of it's kind. Yet, most Higher Ed institutions had endowment funds in place when the Wyandotte Tribe outnumbered Catholics, long before the Diocese of Wichita came into being. If the Diocese of Wichita can do it, so can Higher Ed. These endowments are a shell game, where students, parents, most professors and taxpayers come out the losers.



Ivy League students pay very little in actual tuition post aid. I'd venture to guess that the average tuition at Harvard's lower than the average at OU. Plenty of places put endowments to good use.

Last Edited: 7/16/2019 9:56:55 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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