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Topic:  RE: Budget cuts

Topic:  RE: Budget cuts
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Kevin Finnegan
General User

Member Since: 2/4/2005
Location: Rockton, IL
Post Count: 730

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/9/2019 10:05:42 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Small schools are a total waste of money and resources. OHIO needs more consolidation, fewer Superintendents, fewer principals and treasurers. Not to mention the building boom to try and satisfy the Rolph decision was a huge waste of money in building new buildings for districts that are simply too small to justify the cost. As for the K-12 campus, only really practical in these smaller communities due to land restraints and other resources.


Athens County has 67,000 residents and five public school districts. Scioto County (Portsmouth) has 76,000 and has 11. Talk about duplication of services. Heck, Millersport (Walnut Township) has less than 600 students in the whole district.



Exactly my point!!!!! And the two smallest schools have had $28 Million spent on new schools, they both have a $90-100k Superintendent, 2-3 principals and other middle management. An amazing waste of money. Itís a sham!


Okay, again, these sound like major flaws and you're ready to advocate for fewer districts. Despite the point made earlier that some communities truly hold tightly to their small school districts, as it is a rallying cry for the community and a place to consider home. But, instead, let's just look at the point made here about Athens County vs Scioto County. I admittedly know little about either. What I do know is that Scioto is much more spread out, more than 100 sq miles larger than Athens. But, that may advocate for a couple more school districts, but not double, right?

Well, let's look at the cost per pupil in both districts along with how they're performing academically. The state cost per pupil on classroom instruction is $6326, and the operating cost per pupil is $9353. With that known, let's check out these two counties.

ATHENS:
Athens City: a C from the state report card. They spent $7207 on classroom/$9671 operating
Nelsonville-York: a D from the state report card. Spent $6217 classroom/$9253 operating
Alexander: a C from state report card. Spent $5966 classroom/$8902 operating
Federal Hocking: a D from the state report card. Spent $5951 classroom/$9315 operating
Trimble: a D from state report card. Spent $7266 classroom/$10383 operating

Overall Athens County* spending: $6521 classroom (above the state average)/$9504 operating (above the state average). Their performance has two districts with a C on the report card, three with a D.

SCIOTO:
Wheelersburg: a B from the state report card. Spent $4897 classroom/$7036 operating
Bloom-Vernon: a B from the state report card. Spent $5762 classroom/$9210 operating
Valley Local: a C from the state report card. Spent $5510 classroom/$8242 operating
Northwest Local: a C from state report card. Spent $5985 classroom/$8976 operating
Clay: a D from state report card. Spent $4921 classroom/$7526 operating
Minford: a C from the state report card. Spent $5090 classroom/$7736 operating
Washington-Nile: a C from the state report card. Spent $5521 classroom/$8282 operating
Green: a C from the state report card. Spent $6254 classroom/$9627 operating
Portsmouth: a D from state report card. Spent $6362 classroom/$9055 operating
New Boston: a D from state report card. Spent $4746 classroom/$8059 operating

Overall Scioto County* spending: $5504 classroom (well below state average and more than a thousand dollars per pupil less than Athens)/ $8374 (again, well below state average and more than $1100 per pupil less than Athens). Also, they have two counties that receive a B, five that receive a C, and three that receive a D. They academically outperform Athens County and spend less significantly.

* -- there isn't a simple breakdown by county, so this is an average of each district. Obviously, they are not the exact same size. However, I think that may skew the numbers worse for Athens County, as Athens City is one of the most expensive in the county and is the largest by far in terms of enrollment.

So, I can't find support for your (inferred) argument that Athens is in a better place either academically or fiscally due to their more consolidated districts.
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akroncat
General User

Member Since: 7/23/2010
Location: Akron, OH
Post Count: 171

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/9/2019 11:43:08 PM 
Russia, founded by Napoleonic soldiers who fought in Russia and felt the countryside looked like the country Russia.
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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 2,583

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/10/2019 6:44:41 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:

I think that these are very telling stats. Throwing more money at a problem is not always the best solution to that problem.


This !

To assure all students receive a public education that meets our N.J. Constitution,the state created Abbott Districts.

Basically that meant throwing a whole bunch at the districts,and hoping for the best.
Didn't work out very well.

Plus,they created the Schools Development Authority to administer it.
That was/is nothing but a patronage mill.
In fact the last director had to step down for a number of reasons,including lying about her qualifications.
She also fired a whole bunch of long time employees and replaced them with friends and relatives who were as unqualified as she was.





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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 2,583

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/10/2019 6:57:09 AM 
akroncat wrote:

and no they don't have all of many AP courses. L


Based on my work with F.D.U.,the value of a number of A.P. classes is vastly over rated.

Virtually every high school around here offers some A.P. classes.
But that doesn't necessarily translate into being taught an a college level.

What we've found is that,in many cases,the educational level of the A.P.class,especially in math/science, is no different then a regular class in the same subject.

Unless a student takes and scores well on the A.P. exam,something a significant number of students in A.P.classes don't even take,they don't seem to be any better prepared, even though they think they are,for college level work.


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Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 5,783

Status: Online

  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/10/2019 7:59:50 AM 
finnOhio wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Small schools are a total waste of money and resources. OHIO needs more consolidation, fewer Superintendents, fewer principals and treasurers. Not to mention the building boom to try and satisfy the Rolph decision was a huge waste of money in building new buildings for districts that are simply too small to justify the cost. As for the K-12 campus, only really practical in these smaller communities due to land restraints and other resources.


Athens County has 67,000 residents and five public school districts. Scioto County (Portsmouth) has 76,000 and has 11. Talk about duplication of services. Heck, Millersport (Walnut Township) has less than 600 students in the whole district.



Exactly my point!!!!! And the two smallest schools have had $28 Million spent on new schools, they both have a $90-100k Superintendent, 2-3 principals and other middle management. An amazing waste of money. Itís a sham!


Okay, again, these sound like major flaws and you're ready to advocate for fewer districts. Despite the point made earlier that some communities truly hold tightly to their small school districts, as it is a rallying cry for the community and a place to consider home. But, instead, let's just look at the point made here about Athens County vs Scioto County. I admittedly know little about either. What I do know is that Scioto is much more spread out, more than 100 sq miles larger than Athens. But, that may advocate for a couple more school districts, but not double, right?

Well, let's look at the cost per pupil in both districts along with how they're performing academically. The state cost per pupil on classroom instruction is $6326, and the operating cost per pupil is $9353. With that known, let's check out these two counties.

ATHENS:
Athens City: a C from the state report card. They spent $7207 on classroom/$9671 operating
Nelsonville-York: a D from the state report card. Spent $6217 classroom/$9253 operating
Alexander: a C from state report card. Spent $5966 classroom/$8902 operating
Federal Hocking: a D from the state report card. Spent $5951 classroom/$9315 operating
Trimble: a D from state report card. Spent $7266 classroom/$10383 operating

Overall Athens County* spending: $6521 classroom (above the state average)/$9504 operating (above the state average). Their performance has two districts with a C on the report card, three with a D.

SCIOTO:
Wheelersburg: a B from the state report card. Spent $4897 classroom/$7036 operating
Bloom-Vernon: a B from the state report card. Spent $5762 classroom/$9210 operating
Valley Local: a C from the state report card. Spent $5510 classroom/$8242 operating
Northwest Local: a C from state report card. Spent $5985 classroom/$8976 operating
Clay: a D from state report card. Spent $4921 classroom/$7526 operating
Minford: a C from the state report card. Spent $5090 classroom/$7736 operating
Washington-Nile: a C from the state report card. Spent $5521 classroom/$8282 operating
Green: a C from the state report card. Spent $6254 classroom/$9627 operating
Portsmouth: a D from state report card. Spent $6362 classroom/$9055 operating
New Boston: a D from state report card. Spent $4746 classroom/$8059 operating

Overall Scioto County* spending: $5504 classroom (well below state average and more than a thousand dollars per pupil less than Athens)/ $8374 (again, well below state average and more than $1100 per pupil less than Athens). Also, they have two counties that receive a B, five that receive a C, and three that receive a D. They academically outperform Athens County and spend less significantly.

* -- there isn't a simple breakdown by county, so this is an average of each district. Obviously, they are not the exact same size. However, I think that may skew the numbers worse for Athens County, as Athens City is one of the most expensive in the county and is the largest by far in terms of enrollment.

So, I can't find support for your (inferred) argument that Athens is in a better place either academically or fiscally due to their more consolidated districts.


You totally misread the state report cards on spending. Athens City spends a total of $9671 per pupil - $7207 on classroom instruction and $2464 on non-classroom spending. The state average spending per pupil is $9353. Russia, the school akroncat went to, spends $$9557.

In the Russia district, the average teacher makes $52,168. In Athens it's $66,000+. The districts are very similar in the teachers' years of service and educational attainment. One of the big differences is in the number of courses students can take. You just can't offer a broad curriculum in these very small schools.



Last Edited: 5/10/2019 8:05:39 AM by Alan Swank

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Ohio69
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 2,747

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/10/2019 8:21:17 AM 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/lawmakers-conside...

Not K-12 but worth a look. And the folks facing off on this (Edwards and Watts) are Bobcats.

As for k-12 at least the small communities are not wasting money on duplicative and unnecessary charter schools. Right?

Last Edited: 5/10/2019 8:22:09 AM by Ohio69


Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 5,783

Status: Online

  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/10/2019 8:38:22 AM 
Ohio69 wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/lawmakers-conside...

Not K-12 but worth a look. And the folks facing off on this (Edwards and Watts) are Bobcats.

As for k-12 at least the small communities are not wasting money on duplicative and unnecessary charter schools. Right?



Sounds like Jay is sucking up to the educational lobby again. Also sounds like he's afraid of a little competition.

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Kevin Finnegan
General User

Member Since: 2/4/2005
Location: Rockton, IL
Post Count: 730

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/10/2019 8:55:36 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
finnOhio wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Small schools are a total waste of money and resources. OHIO needs more consolidation, fewer Superintendents, fewer principals and treasurers. Not to mention the building boom to try and satisfy the Rolph decision was a huge waste of money in building new buildings for districts that are simply too small to justify the cost. As for the K-12 campus, only really practical in these smaller communities due to land restraints and other resources.


Athens County has 67,000 residents and five public school districts. Scioto County (Portsmouth) has 76,000 and has 11. Talk about duplication of services. Heck, Millersport (Walnut Township) has less than 600 students in the whole district.



Exactly my point!!!!! And the two smallest schools have had $28 Million spent on new schools, they both have a $90-100k Superintendent, 2-3 principals and other middle management. An amazing waste of money. Itís a sham!


Okay, again, these sound like major flaws and you're ready to advocate for fewer districts. Despite the point made earlier that some communities truly hold tightly to their small school districts, as it is a rallying cry for the community and a place to consider home. But, instead, let's just look at the point made here about Athens County vs Scioto County. I admittedly know little about either. What I do know is that Scioto is much more spread out, more than 100 sq miles larger than Athens. But, that may advocate for a couple more school districts, but not double, right?

Well, let's look at the cost per pupil in both districts along with how they're performing academically. The state cost per pupil on classroom instruction is $6326, and the operating cost per pupil is $9353. With that known, let's check out these two counties.

ATHENS:
Athens City: a C from the state report card. They spent $7207 on classroom/$9671 operating
Nelsonville-York: a D from the state report card. Spent $6217 classroom/$9253 operating
Alexander: a C from state report card. Spent $5966 classroom/$8902 operating
Federal Hocking: a D from the state report card. Spent $5951 classroom/$9315 operating
Trimble: a D from state report card. Spent $7266 classroom/$10383 operating

Overall Athens County* spending: $6521 classroom (above the state average)/$9504 operating (above the state average). Their performance has two districts with a C on the report card, three with a D.

SCIOTO:
Wheelersburg: a B from the state report card. Spent $4897 classroom/$7036 operating
Bloom-Vernon: a B from the state report card. Spent $5762 classroom/$9210 operating
Valley Local: a C from the state report card. Spent $5510 classroom/$8242 operating
Northwest Local: a C from state report card. Spent $5985 classroom/$8976 operating
Clay: a D from state report card. Spent $4921 classroom/$7526 operating
Minford: a C from the state report card. Spent $5090 classroom/$7736 operating
Washington-Nile: a C from the state report card. Spent $5521 classroom/$8282 operating
Green: a C from the state report card. Spent $6254 classroom/$9627 operating
Portsmouth: a D from state report card. Spent $6362 classroom/$9055 operating
New Boston: a D from state report card. Spent $4746 classroom/$8059 operating

Overall Scioto County* spending: $5504 classroom (well below state average and more than a thousand dollars per pupil less than Athens)/ $8374 (again, well below state average and more than $1100 per pupil less than Athens). Also, they have two counties that receive a B, five that receive a C, and three that receive a D. They academically outperform Athens County and spend less significantly.

* -- there isn't a simple breakdown by county, so this is an average of each district. Obviously, they are not the exact same size. However, I think that may skew the numbers worse for Athens County, as Athens City is one of the most expensive in the county and is the largest by far in terms of enrollment.

So, I can't find support for your (inferred) argument that Athens is in a better place either academically or fiscally due to their more consolidated districts.


You totally misread the state report cards on spending. Athens City spends a total of $9671 per pupil - $7207 on classroom instruction and $2464 on non-classroom spending. The state average spending per pupil is $9353. Russia, the school akroncat went to, spends $$9557.

In the Russia district, the average teacher makes $52,168. In Athens it's $66,000+. The districts are very similar in the teachers' years of service and educational attainment. One of the big differences is in the number of courses students can take. You just can't offer a broad curriculum in these very small schools.





I'm not sure how you are claiming I misread the state reports? I used the term operating rather than overall, using the vernacular we use, but I showed exactly what you report. I showed $9671 for Athens City and claimed the state average as $9353. Not sure what you think I misread there when we reported the same numbers. I just don't think it's fitting the narrative that you and Billy were hoping to show.
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Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 5,783

Status: Online

  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/10/2019 9:45:27 AM 
finnOhio wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
finnOhio wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Small schools are a total waste of money and resources. OHIO needs more consolidation, fewer Superintendents, fewer principals and treasurers. Not to mention the building boom to try and satisfy the Rolph decision was a huge waste of money in building new buildings for districts that are simply too small to justify the cost. As for the K-12 campus, only really practical in these smaller communities due to land restraints and other resources.


Athens County has 67,000 residents and five public school districts. Scioto County (Portsmouth) has 76,000 and has 11. Talk about duplication of services. Heck, Millersport (Walnut Township) has less than 600 students in the whole district.



Exactly my point!!!!! And the two smallest schools have had $28 Million spent on new schools, they both have a $90-100k Superintendent, 2-3 principals and other middle management. An amazing waste of money. Itís a sham!


Okay, again, these sound like major flaws and you're ready to advocate for fewer districts. Despite the point made earlier that some communities truly hold tightly to their small school districts, as it is a rallying cry for the community and a place to consider home. But, instead, let's just look at the point made here about Athens County vs Scioto County. I admittedly know little about either. What I do know is that Scioto is much more spread out, more than 100 sq miles larger than Athens. But, that may advocate for a couple more school districts, but not double, right?

Well, let's look at the cost per pupil in both districts along with how they're performing academically. The state cost per pupil on classroom instruction is $6326, and the operating cost per pupil is $9353. With that known, let's check out these two counties.

ATHENS:
Athens City: a C from the state report card. They spent $7207 on classroom/$9671 operating
Nelsonville-York: a D from the state report card. Spent $6217 classroom/$9253 operating
Alexander: a C from state report card. Spent $5966 classroom/$8902 operating
Federal Hocking: a D from the state report card. Spent $5951 classroom/$9315 operating
Trimble: a D from state report card. Spent $7266 classroom/$10383 operating

Overall Athens County* spending: $6521 classroom (above the state average)/$9504 operating (above the state average). Their performance has two districts with a C on the report card, three with a D.

SCIOTO:
Wheelersburg: a B from the state report card. Spent $4897 classroom/$7036 operating
Bloom-Vernon: a B from the state report card. Spent $5762 classroom/$9210 operating
Valley Local: a C from the state report card. Spent $5510 classroom/$8242 operating
Northwest Local: a C from state report card. Spent $5985 classroom/$8976 operating
Clay: a D from state report card. Spent $4921 classroom/$7526 operating
Minford: a C from the state report card. Spent $5090 classroom/$7736 operating
Washington-Nile: a C from the state report card. Spent $5521 classroom/$8282 operating
Green: a C from the state report card. Spent $6254 classroom/$9627 operating
Portsmouth: a D from state report card. Spent $6362 classroom/$9055 operating
New Boston: a D from state report card. Spent $4746 classroom/$8059 operating

Overall Scioto County* spending: $5504 classroom (well below state average and more than a thousand dollars per pupil less than Athens)/ $8374 (again, well below state average and more than $1100 per pupil less than Athens). Also, they have two counties that receive a B, five that receive a C, and three that receive a D. They academically outperform Athens County and spend less significantly.

* -- there isn't a simple breakdown by county, so this is an average of each district. Obviously, they are not the exact same size. However, I think that may skew the numbers worse for Athens County, as Athens City is one of the most expensive in the county and is the largest by far in terms of enrollment.

So, I can't find support for your (inferred) argument that Athens is in a better place either academically or fiscally due to their more consolidated districts.


You totally misread the state report cards on spending. Athens City spends a total of $9671 per pupil - $7207 on classroom instruction and $2464 on non-classroom spending. The state average spending per pupil is $9353. Russia, the school akroncat went to, spends $$9557.

In the Russia district, the average teacher makes $52,168. In Athens it's $66,000+. The districts are very similar in the teachers' years of service and educational attainment. One of the big differences is in the number of courses students can take. You just can't offer a broad curriculum in these very small schools.





I'm not sure how you are claiming I misread the state reports? I used the term operating rather than overall, using the vernacular we use, but I showed exactly what you report. I showed $9671 for Athens City and claimed the state average as $9353. Not sure what you think I misread there when we reported the same numbers. I just don't think it's fitting the narrative that you and Billy were hoping to show.


Here is a link to the aformentioned Vanlue School district. Check out what they are spending per pupil - almost $3000 more per pupil above the state average to service 165 kids. In fact, 1/3 of the students in the district open enroll in other districts. And the average teacher there has 7 years experience and makes $39K.

https://reportcard.education.ohio.gov/district/finance/04...

Last Edited: 5/10/2019 9:49:03 AM by Alan Swank

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BillyTheCat
General User

Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 6,049

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/10/2019 2:33:00 PM 
finnOhio wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Small schools are a total waste of money and resources. OHIO needs more consolidation, fewer Superintendents, fewer principals and treasurers. Not to mention the building boom to try and satisfy the Rolph decision was a huge waste of money in building new buildings for districts that are simply too small to justify the cost. As for the K-12 campus, only really practical in these smaller communities due to land restraints and other resources.


Athens County has 67,000 residents and five public school districts. Scioto County (Portsmouth) has 76,000 and has 11. Talk about duplication of services. Heck, Millersport (Walnut Township) has less than 600 students in the whole district.



Exactly my point!!!!! And the two smallest schools have had $28 Million spent on new schools, they both have a $90-100k Superintendent, 2-3 principals and other middle management. An amazing waste of money. Itís a sham!


Okay, again, these sound like major flaws and you're ready to advocate for fewer districts. Despite the point made earlier that some communities truly hold tightly to their small school districts, as it is a rallying cry for the community and a place to consider home. But, instead, let's just look at the point made here about Athens County vs Scioto County. I admittedly know little about either. What I do know is that Scioto is much more spread out, more than 100 sq miles larger than Athens. But, that may advocate for a couple more school districts, but not double, right?

Well, let's look at the cost per pupil in both districts along with how they're performing academically. The state cost per pupil on classroom instruction is $6326, and the operating cost per pupil is $9353. With that known, let's check out these two counties.

ATHENS:
Athens City: a C from the state report card. They spent $7207 on classroom/$9671 operating
Nelsonville-York: a D from the state report card. Spent $6217 classroom/$9253 operating
Alexander: a C from state report card. Spent $5966 classroom/$8902 operating
Federal Hocking: a D from the state report card. Spent $5951 classroom/$9315 operating
Trimble: a D from state report card. Spent $7266 classroom/$10383 operating

Overall Athens County* spending: $6521 classroom (above the state average)/$9504 operating (above the state average). Their performance has two districts with a C on the report card, three with a D.

SCIOTO:
Wheelersburg: a B from the state report card. Spent $4897 classroom/$7036 operating
Bloom-Vernon: a B from the state report card. Spent $5762 classroom/$9210 operating
Valley Local: a C from the state report card. Spent $5510 classroom/$8242 operating
Northwest Local: a C from state report card. Spent $5985 classroom/$8976 operating
Clay: a D from state report card. Spent $4921 classroom/$7526 operating
Minford: a C from the state report card. Spent $5090 classroom/$7736 operating
Washington-Nile: a C from the state report card. Spent $5521 classroom/$8282 operating
Green: a C from the state report card. Spent $6254 classroom/$9627 operating
Portsmouth: a D from state report card. Spent $6362 classroom/$9055 operating
New Boston: a D from state report card. Spent $4746 classroom/$8059 operating

Overall Scioto County* spending: $5504 classroom (well below state average and more than a thousand dollars per pupil less than Athens)/ $8374 (again, well below state average and more than $1100 per pupil less than Athens). Also, they have two counties that receive a B, five that receive a C, and three that receive a D. They academically outperform Athens County and spend less significantly.

* -- there isn't a simple breakdown by county, so this is an average of each district. Obviously, they are not the exact same size. However, I think that may skew the numbers worse for Athens County, as Athens City is one of the most expensive in the county and is the largest by far in terms of enrollment.

So, I can't find support for your (inferred) argument that Athens is in a better place either academically or fiscally due to their more consolidated districts.



Some people really hold tightly to the the VCR and all their VHS tapes too. Doesnít mean that is what is best or the best. I get small communities want to hold onto their little schools, but at the same time is it for the right reasons or what is actually best in proven practices. Not only that these small schools in Ohio are grossly underfunded and lacking in resources.
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BillyTheCat
General User

Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 6,049

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/10/2019 2:35:15 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
akroncat wrote:

and no they don't have all of many AP courses. L


Based on my work with F.D.U.,the value of a number of A.P. classes is vastly over rated.

Virtually every high school around here offers some A.P. classes.
But that doesn't necessarily translate into being taught an a college level.

What we've found is that,in many cases,the educational level of the A.P.class,especially in math/science, is no different then a regular class in the same subject.

Unless a student takes and scores well on the A.P. exam,something a significant number of students in A.P.classes don't even take,they don't seem to be any better prepared, even though they think they are,for college level work.




Over a 20 year period my students have never scored lower than a 3 on their AP subject test and the average is a 4.3. Last year my students had an average of 4.9 on the AP exam
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UpSan Bobcat
General User



Member Since: 8/30/2005
Location: Upper Sandusky, OH
Post Count: 3,437

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/10/2019 4:23:55 PM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
A very interesting discussion because we often see strange political bedfellows in these arguments. A few years ago the Buckeye Institute a conservative think tank in Ohio put out a position paper calling for more school consolidation, actually mentioning specific counties and school districts in the state. The paper was widely praised by some urban policy education groups and liberal think tanks. However, grass roots conservative groups lambasted the Buckeye Institute accusing them of becoming establishmentarians. A few liberal grass roots education groups joined their conservative colleagues in this assessment.

Supporters of these small schools believe a community spirit exists that helps some students who might not otherwise succeed do so because of a familiarity with their teachers and community pulling for them. Larger rural districts like Napoleon generally score well on achievement tests because in their view they have the best of both worlds, a somewhat larger pool of students and teachers from which to draw and more resources than a Vanlue or Old Fort could offer (which will follow this paragraph.)

The last consolidation to take place in Ohio occurred in 2014 when Old Fort in Northwest Ohio took in Bettsvile school district. These two schools district were in far northern Seneca County. Bettsvile had an operating deficit and a community meeting (something right out of a scene in the movie Hoosiers) decided that they should merge with Old Fort. Though the schools were bitter athletic rivalries, both communities agreed this was their best course of action and Bettsville became part of the Old Fort Stockaders (one of my favorite nicknames.)

Vanlue is another school system that hangs on even though they have less than 80 students in the high school. They even field a football team and at last count I believe they fielded a team of 15 boys (no JV team.) I am not sure what's going to happen to their athletic programs since they aren't getting any bigger. However, their community is fiercely proud of their tradition and refuse to listen to merger talks. I believe Findlay might be the closest school district, but I can't say that for a fact without doing more research.

Below is a picture of the Vanlue Football team as well as the district's website.
http://vanlueschool.org/course/view.php?id=158


Vanlue and Arcadia were in discussions of merging at one point. Arcadia is also very small, though not nearly as small as Vanlue (which completely unrelated, has a basketball court on a stage). Carey is probably the school closest to Vanlue. It's less than 10 minutes down the highway. Bettsville, by the way, had the best nickname of all: Bobcats,
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/10/2019 7:48:02 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
akroncat wrote:

and no they don't have all of many AP courses. L


Based on my work with F.D.U.,the value of a number of A.P. classes is vastly over rated.

Virtually every high school around here offers some A.P. classes.
But that doesn't necessarily translate into being taught an a college level.

What we've found is that,in many cases,the educational level of the A.P.class,especially in math/science, is no different then a regular class in the same subject.

Unless a student takes and scores well on the A.P. exam,somet hing a significant number of students in A.P.classes don't even take,they don't seem to be any better prepared, even though they think they are,for college level work.




Over a 20 year period my students have never scored lower than a 3 on their AP subject test and the average is a 4.3. Last year my students had an average of 4.9 on the AP exam


That seems to the case around here too.
The students that take the A.P. tests,seem to score well on them.

Thing is,as I posted,a significant number of kids in what are supposed to be A.P. classes,especially in math or science, don't take the A.P. tests.

That seems to be,to a great extent,their teachers not pushing them to take the exams.

Those are the students I referred to as not being prepared for college level work even though they got good grades in their A.P. classes.

They are also shocked when the see just how poorly prepared they are for classes like Calculus,Physics and Chemistry.

The people in my committee feel that any kid in an A.P. class should have to take the A.P. exam.
That provides an objective assessment of what they learned.

We do that at FDU,by having engineering students to sit for the Fundamentals of Engineering exam.

Last Edited: 5/10/2019 7:48:50 PM by rpbobcat

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/10/2019 7:52:25 PM 
finnOhio wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
finnOhio wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Small schools are a total waste of money and resources. OHIO needs more consolidation, fewer Superintendents, fewer principals and treasurers. Not to mention the building boom to try and satisfy the Rolph decision was a huge waste of money in building new buildings for districts that are simply too small to justify the cost. As for the K-12 campus, only really practical in these smaller communities due to land restraints and other resources.


Athens County has 67,000 residents and five public school districts. Scioto County (Portsmouth) has 76,000 and has 11. Talk about duplication of services. Heck, Millersport (Walnut Township) has less than 600 students in the whole district.



Exactly my point!!!!! And the two smallest schools have had $28 Million spent on new schools, they both have a $90-100k Superintendent, 2-3 principals and other middle management. An amazing waste of money. Itís a sham!


Okay, again, these sound like major flaws and you're ready to advocate for fewer districts. Despite the point made earlier that some communities truly hold tightly to their small school districts, as it is a rallying cry for the community and a place to consider home. But, instead, let's just look at the point made here about Athens County vs Scioto County. I admittedly know little about either. What I do know is that Scioto is much more spread out, more than 100 sq miles larger than Athens. But, that may advocate for a couple more school districts, but not double, right?

Well, let's look at the cost per pupil in both districts along with how they're performing academically. The state cost per pupil on classroom instruction is $6326, and the operating cost per pupil is $9353. With that known, let's check out these two counties.

ATHENS:
Athens City: a C from the state report card. They spent $7207 on classroom/$9671 operating
Nelsonville-York: a D from the state report card. Spent $6217 classroom/$9253 operating
Alexander: a C from state report card. Spent $5966 classroom/$8902 operating
Federal Hocking: a D from the state report card. Spent $5951 classroom/$9315 operating
Trimble: a D from state report card. Spent $7266 classroom/$10383 operating

Overall Athens County* spending: $6521 classroom (above the state average)/$9504 operating (above the state average). Their performance has two districts with a C on the report card, three with a D.

SCIOTO:
Wheelersburg: a B from the state report card. Spent $4897 classroom/$7036 operating
Bloom-Vernon: a B from the state report card. Spent $5762 classroom/$9210 operating
Valley Local: a C from the state report card. Spent $5510 classroom/$8242 operating
Northwest Local: a C from state report card. Spent $5985 classroom/$8976 operating
Clay: a D from state report card. Spent $4921 classroom/$7526 operating
Minford: a C from the state report card. Spent $5090 classroom/$7736 operating
Washington-Nile: a C from the state report card. Spent $5521 classroom/$8282 operating
Green: a C from the state report card. Spent $6254 classroom/$9627 operating
Portsmouth: a D from state report card. Spent $6362 classroom/$9055 operating
New Boston: a D from state report card. Spent $4746 classroom/$8059 operating

Overall Scioto County* spending: $5504 classroom (well below state average and more than a thousand dollars per pupil less than Athens)/ $8374 (again, well below state average and more than $1100 per pupil less than Athens). Also, they have two counties that receive a B, five that receive a C, and three that receive a D. They academically outperform Athens County and spend less significantly.

* -- there isn't a simple breakdown by county, so this is an average of each district. Obviously, they are not the exact same size. However, I think that may skew the numbers worse for Athens County, as Athens City is one of the most expensive in the county and is the largest by far in terms of enrollment.

So, I can't find support for your (inferred) argument that Athens is in a better place either academically or fiscally due to their more consolidated districts.


You totally misread the state report cards on spending. Athens City spends a total of $9671 per pupil - $7207 on classroom instruction and $2464 on non-classroom spending. The state average spending per pupil is $9353. Russia, the school akroncat went to, spends $$9557.

In the Russia district, the average teacher makes $52,168. In Athens it's $66,000+. The districts are very similar in the teachers' years of service and educational attainment. One of the big differences is in the number of courses students can take. You just can't offer a broad curriculum in these very small schools.





I'm not sure how you are claiming I misread the state reports? I used the term operating rather than overall, using the vernacular we use, but I showed exactly what you report. I showed $9671 for Athens City and claimed the state average as $9353. Not sure what you think I misread there when we reported the same numbers. I just don't think it's fitting the narrative that you and Billy were hoping to show.


And every year Athens has some of the highest achieving students in Ohio, regularly leads all Appalachian districts in National Merit Scholars, the highest in AP scores, and regularly send several students a year to Ivy League schools and some of the best schools in America. Athens also has a high rate of poverty in the district and those students achieve at a high level too. Athens offers a good variety of curriculum, AP and CC+ courses as well has an award winning vocational arts and FFA programs. 70% of Athens students participate in some sort of extra-curricular activity as well. Athens is not a large school and many areas.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/10/2019 7:58:15 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
akroncat wrote:

and no they don't have all of many AP courses. L


Based on my work with F.D.U.,the value of a number of A.P. classes is vastly over rated.

Virtually every high school around here offers some A.P. classes.
But that doesn't necessarily translate into being taught an a college level.

What we've found is that,in many cases,the educational level of the A.P.class,especially in math/science, is no different then a regular class in the same subject.

Unless a student takes and scores well on the A.P. exam,somet hing a significant number of students in A.P.classes don't even take,they don't seem to be any better prepared, even though they think they are,for college level work.




Over a 20 year period my students have never scored lower than a 3 on their AP subject test and the average is a 4.3. Last year my students had an average of 4.9 on the AP exam


That seems to the case around here too.
The students that take the A.P. tests,seem to score well on them.

Thing is,as I posted,a significant number of kids in what are supposed to be A.P. classes,especially in math or science, don't take the A.P. tests.

That seems to be,to a great extent,their teachers not pushing them to take the exams.

Those are the students I referred to as not being prepared for college level work even though they got good grades in their A.P. classes.

They are also shocked when the see just how poorly prepared they are for classes like Calculus,Physics and Chemistry.

The people in my committee feel that any kid in an A.P. class should have to take the A.P. exam.
That provides an objective assessment of what they learned.

We do that at FDU,by having engineering students to sit for the Fundamentals of Engineering exam.


Our underclassmen take the AP Exam in very high numbers around 80%, not so much in the senior classes, but a lot of that is attributed to early action commitments to schools that only give credit for 5ís. Example is Iíve had an MIT bound student each of the past 4 years, by the time they have to pay for the exam they have realized the AP exam will do nothing for them. A couple years ago we had a student score 10 5ís on 10 test, this student got nothing but empty hours that counted nothing towards graduation. Nationally the numbers taking the AP exam are falling, this is one reason the College Board is moving the registration date for exams to the fall before early action kids get their acceptance letters.
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/10/2019 9:24:22 PM 
Billy not sure of your relationship to Athens High. Athens High isn't truly indicative of any school in Appalachia. There is a huge socio-economic difference and outlook on education. I am not sure how it is now but in the 1980s phasing was in place. There were 2-3 different types of courses for the same class depending upon your perceived phase level.

Prof's kids were in the top level class and other kids were in the two other phases. The scores were hardly indicative of an average Appalachia school, or any school that resides in an economically impoverished area.

For some prof's, if there kid wasn't being strongly considered for entrance into an Ivy League school, it cast a pall over the family. In short, any Athens High score is probably an outlier compared to other small towns and areas that are economically disadvantaged. I am sure the same holds true for Oxford, Granville etc. Although, I would imagine more profs at Miami reside in the Cincy suburbs as do Dennison profs who might reside in the Columbus area. Athens is a long way from a major metro area; therefore Athens High is the district in which most university employees kids attend.


Last Edited: 5/10/2019 9:32:53 PM by cbus cat fan

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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 5,783

Status: Online

  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/12/2019 4:35:50 PM 
[/QUOTE]

And every year Athens has some of the highest achieving students in Ohio, regularly leads all Appalachian districts in National Merit Scholars, the highest in AP scores, and regularly send several students a year to Ivy League schools and some of the best schools in America. Athens also has a high rate of poverty in the district and those students achieve at a high level too. Athens offers a good variety of curriculum, AP and CC+ courses as well has an award winning vocational arts and FFA programs. 70% of Athens students participate in some sort of extra-curricular activity as well. Athens is not a large school and many areas. [/QUOTE]

While Athens has some very bright students and an experienced and dedicated faculty, the state report cards paint a slightly different picture in terms of achievement levels than you paint in the quote above.

https://reportcard.education.ohio.gov/school/achievement/...

Much of that is the result of high poverty numbers and 20% chronic absenteeism. If you check districts across the state, the two go hand in hand.

Last Edited: 5/12/2019 4:39:54 PM by Alan Swank

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ts1227
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Location: Tallmadge, OH
Post Count: 818

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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/12/2019 10:11:58 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
finnOhio wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Small schools are a total waste of money and resources. OHIO needs more consolidation, fewer Superintendents, fewer principals and treasurers. Not to mention the building boom to try and satisfy the Rolph decision was a huge waste of money in building new buildings for districts that are simply too small to justify the cost. As for the K-12 campus, only really practical in these smaller communities due to land restraints and other resources.


Athens County has 67,000 residents and five public school districts. Scioto County (Portsmouth) has 76,000 and has 11. Talk about duplication of services. Heck, Millersport (Walnut Township) has less than 600 students in the whole district.



Exactly my point!!!!! And the two smallest schools have had $28 Million spent on new schools, they both have a $90-100k Superintendent, 2-3 principals and other middle management. An amazing waste of money. Itís a sham!


Okay, again, these sound like major flaws and you're ready to advocate for fewer districts. Despite the point made earlier that some communities truly hold tightly to their small school districts, as it is a rallying cry for the community and a place to consider home. But, instead, let's just look at the point made here about Athens County vs Scioto County. I admittedly know little about either. What I do know is that Scioto is much more spread out, more than 100 sq miles larger than Athens. But, that may advocate for a couple more school districts, but not double, right?

Well, let's look at the cost per pupil in both districts along with how they're performing academically. The state cost per pupil on classroom instruction is $6326, and the operating cost per pupil is $9353. With that known, let's check out these two counties.

ATHENS:
Athens City: a C from the state report card. They spent $7207 on classroom/$9671 operating
Nelsonville-York: a D from the state report card. Spent $6217 classroom/$9253 operating
Alexander: a C from state report card. Spent $5966 classroom/$8902 operating
Federal Hocking: a D from the state report card. Spent $5951 classroom/$9315 operating
Trimble: a D from state report card. Spent $7266 classroom/$10383 operating

Overall Athens County* spending: $6521 classroom (above the state average)/$9504 operating (above the state average). Their performance has two districts with a C on the report card, three with a D.

SCIOTO:
Wheelersburg: a B from the state report card. Spent $4897 classroom/$7036 operating
Bloom-Vernon: a B from the state report card. Spent $5762 classroom/$9210 operating
Valley Local: a C from the state report card. Spent $5510 classroom/$8242 operating
Northwest Local: a C from state report card. Spent $5985 classroom/$8976 operating
Clay: a D from state report card. Spent $4921 classroom/$7526 operating
Minford: a C from the state report card. Spent $5090 classroom/$7736 operating
Washington-Nile: a C from the state report card. Spent $5521 classroom/$8282 operating
Green: a C from the state report card. Spent $6254 classroom/$9627 operating
Portsmouth: a D from state report card. Spent $6362 classroom/$9055 operating
New Boston: a D from state report card. Spent $4746 classroom/$8059 operating

Overall Scioto County* spending: $5504 classroom (well below state average and more than a thousand dollars per pupil less than Athens)/ $8374 (again, well below state average and more than $1100 per pupil less than Athens). Also, they have two counties that receive a B, five that receive a C, and three that receive a D. They academically outperform Athens County and spend less significantly.

* -- there isn't a simple breakdown by county, so this is an average of each district. Obviously, they are not the exact same size. However, I think that may skew the numbers worse for Athens County, as Athens City is one of the most expensive in the county and is the largest by far in terms of enrollment.

So, I can't find support for your (inferred) argument that Athens is in a better place either academically or fiscally due to their more consolidated districts.


You totally misread the state report cards on spending. Athens City spends a total of $9671 per pupil - $7207 on classroom instruction and $2464 on non-classroom spending. The state average spending per pupil is $9353. Russia, the school akroncat went to, spends $$9557.

In the Russia district, the average teacher makes $52,168. In Athens it's $66,000+. The districts are very similar in the teachers' years of service and educational attainment. One of the big differences is in the number of courses students can take. You just can't offer a broad curriculum in these very small schools.


I am always shocked at the money Athens City has been able to pay. Teacher salary is higher than most in the area (which is a good thing), principal salaries are a little on the high side, and Gibbs' salary is in the stratosphere - a lot of bigger city superintendents don't even sniff what he's making.
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/12/2019 10:33:25 PM 
Sometimes the pay for Superintendents is a real head scratcher. The Tiffin City schools Superintendent was hired at $175,000 starting salary a couple of years ago from the Marion City Schools. Marion is right near the bottom of the totem pole in student achievement. Add insult to injury a couple of days after he got the job, the new Superintendent got an OVI in Tiffin--must have some sort of party. Anyway, the Board was in a forgiving mood and let it slide. It wasn't too long ago that this would have been a no-brainer. He would have been gone.

Keep in mind that the Olentangy and Dublin City Schools Superintendents, as well as most of their wealthier suburban Superintendent colleagues across the state weren't making that kind of money. Dublin has 3 large high schools and an assortment of middle and grade schools, Olentangy has 4 large high schools and an assortment of middle schools and grade schools. Tiffin has one high school of less than 900 students, one middle school and three elementary schools. Talk about hitting the jackpot!
https://www.toledoblade.com/local/courts/2017/09/19/Tiffi...

Last Edited: 5/12/2019 10:50:19 PM by cbus cat fan

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Ohio69
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/21/2019 2:40:31 PM 
Enrollment Shortfalls Spread to more Colleges: https://www.chronicle.com/article/Enrollment-Shortfalls-S...




Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/22/2019 10:20:52 AM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
Sometimes the pay for Superintendents is a real head scratcher. The Tiffin City schools Superintendent was hired at $175,000 starting salary a couple of years ago from the Marion City Schools. Marion is right near the bottom of the totem pole in student achievement. Add insult to injury a couple of days after he got the job, the new Superintendent got an OVI in Tiffin--must have some sort of party. Anyway, the Board was in a forgiving mood and let it slide. It wasn't too long ago that this would have been a no-brainer. He would have been gone.

Keep in mind that the Olentangy and Dublin City Schools Superintendents, as well as most of their wealthier suburban Superintendent colleagues across the state weren't making that kind of money. Dublin has 3 large high schools and an assortment of middle and grade schools, Olentangy has 4 large high schools and an assortment of middle schools and grade schools. Tiffin has one high school of less than 900 students, one middle school and three elementary schools. Talk about hitting the jackpot!
https://www.toledoblade.com/local/courts/2017/09/19/Tiffi...


Athens High School Superintendent will make $195K when his new contract is up in 4 years.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/22/2019 12:06:39 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:


Athens High School Superintendent will make $195K when his new contract is up in 4 years.


I don't know how Ohio school systems work.

Out here in N.J. each school district (usually a municipality) has a Supt. of schools.

That is the individual in charge of the overall Administration school system,including budgets.

In N.J. a number of towns don't have their own high schools.
The Supt. of schools,in the town where the other towns go,is in charge of that regional school.
Usually without input from the "sending districts".

In N.J. it is virtually impossible for a town to move to another high school,and the Supt.'s know it.

Individual schools have a Principal who is in charge of running that school.

If a town only has 1 or 2 K-8 public schools,sometimes a principal will also be the supt.

Just wonder if that's how it works in Ohio ?

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/22/2019 2:47:12 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:


Athens High School Superintendent will make $195K when his new contract is up in 4 years.


I don't know how Ohio school systems work.

Out here in N.J. each school district (usually a municipality) has a Supt. of schools.

That is the individual in charge of the overall Administration school system,including budgets.

In N.J. a number of towns don't have their own high schools.
The Supt. of schools,in the town where the other towns go,is in charge of that regional school.
Usually without input from the "sending districts".

In N.J. it is virtually impossible for a town to move to another high school,and the Supt.'s know it.

Individual schools have a Principal who is in charge of running that school.

If a town only has 1 or 2 K-8 public schools,sometimes a principal will also be the supt.

Just wonder if that's how it works in Ohio ?



There are approximately 610 school districts in Ohio and each has its own superintendent and school board.

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 5/22/2019 2:52:27 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:


Athens High School Superintendent will make $195K when his new contract is up in 4 years.


I don't know how Ohio school systems work.

Out here in N.J. each school district (usually a municipality) has a Supt. of schools.

That is the individual in charge of the overall Administration school system,including budgets.

In N.J. a number of towns don't have their own high schools.
The Supt. of schools,in the town where the other towns go,is in charge of that regional school.
Usually without input from the "sending districts".

In N.J. it is virtually impossible for a town to move to another high school,and the Supt.'s know it.

Individual schools have a Principal who is in charge of running that school.

If a town only has 1 or 2 K-8 public schools,sometimes a principal will also be the supt.

Just wonder if that's how it works in Ohio ?



There are approximately 610 school districts in Ohio and each has its own superintendent and school board.



Some Superintendents manage multiple schools and thousands of students while many oversee 1 campus and a few hundred students. Total waste of money.
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Recovering Journalist
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Location: Cleveland, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 6/13/2019 8:35:16 AM 
Akron is making steep cuts this year even after the buyouts. Their situation is the most dire, but they are a harbinger for a lot of public schools in Ohio.

This article features a wildly optimistic plan to phase in up to $8 million in new money from athletics to cut the reliance on the general fund.

https://www.ohio.com/news/20190612/ua-budget-for-2020-inc...
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