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Original speculation I was seeing had them facing Wisconsin, and I actually thought they might be able to keep it close with them. Instead they draw UCLA, who returned nearly the entire roster from last year's Final 4 team. When you look at the main guys in UCLA's rotation, it's nearly all 3rd and 4th year guys. They are experienced, they are extremely talented, they are battle tested, and you have to play them on the West coast. Yikes. Not a very good sample, but I watched the second half of two UCLA games this year. Though they won, they seemed to have kind of a sloppy style of play that led to a lot of turnovers. They made up for their turnovers by making a high percentage of their shots. The key for Akron, IMHO, is to ratchet up their defense and get points off turnovers. Possible? UCLA averages 9.2 TO's per game. Akron averages 11.5 TO's per game. Great analysis using statistics OCF. Appreciate that! Back to Top OU_Country General User Member Since: 12/6/2005 Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County Post Count: 8,321 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/15/2022 2:36:41 PM  giacomo wrote: OU_Country wrote: giacomo wrote: Dambrot is making 1M at Duquesne. I doubt Groce is making that much at Akron. Both schools are crazy for paying that much. There it is. I figured we would get the "paid too much" post in here somewhere this week. 😉 Well, I live in Pittsburgh and have attended Duquesne games. I hate to tell you that the crowds are sparse and there is not much interest in the program in the city. Pitt gets top billing and Duquesne and Robert Morris are an afterthought. Maybe they suffer from the same delusions that afflict many on this board. Just pay the coach big money and the program is elevated. The lack of support and attendance has to do with one thing, and one thing only: the lack of WINNING in a tough conference. Duquesne was decades behind in facilities and funding up until recently. About 5-6 years ago, I took at trip to the Burgh, and we saw Duquesne at noon, and Pitt at 4pm. Both buildings were about 1/2 to 2/3 full. Pitt, quite honestly, was the lesser of the two programs that year, and it showed on the court. I find it interesting that you consistently come here to complain about coaching salaries while also pointing out delusions that others have on this board. Is it not at least somewhat delusional to expect coaches salaries to remain the same as they were 15 years ago? Back to Top OU_Country General User Member Since: 12/6/2005 Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County Post Count: 8,321 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/15/2022 2:40:30 PM  BillyTheCat wrote: OU_Country wrote: shabamon wrote: I could see him taking a lateral job just to get in with a university on more stable financial standing. Totally agree. And if Akron loses John, they'd probably be in trouble. And if you're Groce, for the reason you state alone, you're telling your agent that you're in the market for any good lateral move out there. An 80% pay increase is not lateral. I think the reference was more that going from Akron in the MAC to Duquesne near the bottom of the A10 is somewhat lateral -- i.e. not a "power" conference job. But I also see your point, and know that Duquesne is more financially stable. Plus the A10 is definitely a better league. Back to Top giacomo General User Member Since: 11/20/2007 Post Count: 2,633 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/16/2022 10:20:40 AM  OU_Country wrote: giacomo wrote: OU_Country wrote: giacomo wrote: Dambrot is making 1M at Duquesne. I doubt Groce is making that much at Akron. Both schools are crazy for paying that much. There it is. I figured we would get the "paid too much" post in here somewhere this week. 😉 Well, I live in Pittsburgh and have attended Duquesne games. I hate to tell you that the crowds are sparse and there is not much interest in the program in the city. Pitt gets top billing and Duquesne and Robert Morris are an afterthought. Maybe they suffer from the same delusions that afflict many on this board. Just pay the coach big money and the program is elevated. The lack of support and attendance has to do with one thing, and one thing only: the lack of WINNING in a tough conference. Duquesne was decades behind in facilities and funding up until recently. About 5-6 years ago, I took at trip to the Burgh, and we saw Duquesne at noon, and Pitt at 4pm. Both buildings were about 1/2 to 2/3 full. Pitt, quite honestly, was the lesser of the two programs that year, and it showed on the court. I find it interesting that you consistently come here to complain about coaching salaries while also pointing out delusions that others have on this board. Is it not at least somewhat delusional to expect coaches salaries to remain the same as they were 15 years ago? I look at it from a business standpoint and many on here are looking at it as fans. I think the reason coaching salaries have gotten out of line is that the have nots think they can elevate their program by simply paying their coach millions. Obviously, there are some programs that have the money and can afford it. I don't think we are in that league, nor is the MAC. Other than Gonzaga, please tell me how it's worked out for anyone else chasing the dream. Back to Top GoCats105 General User Member Since: 1/31/2006 Location: Seattle, WA Post Count: 6,948 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/16/2022 11:16:30 AM  giacomo wrote: OU_Country wrote: giacomo wrote: OU_Country wrote: giacomo wrote: Dambrot is making 1M at Duquesne. I doubt Groce is making that much at Akron. Both schools are crazy for paying that much. There it is. I figured we would get the "paid too much" post in here somewhere this week. 😉 Well, I live in Pittsburgh and have attended Duquesne games. I hate to tell you that the crowds are sparse and there is not much interest in the program in the city. Pitt gets top billing and Duquesne and Robert Morris are an afterthought. Maybe they suffer from the same delusions that afflict many on this board. Just pay the coach big money and the program is elevated. The lack of support and attendance has to do with one thing, and one thing only: the lack of WINNING in a tough conference. Duquesne was decades behind in facilities and funding up until recently. About 5-6 years ago, I took at trip to the Burgh, and we saw Duquesne at noon, and Pitt at 4pm. Both buildings were about 1/2 to 2/3 full. Pitt, quite honestly, was the lesser of the two programs that year, and it showed on the court. I find it interesting that you consistently come here to complain about coaching salaries while also pointing out delusions that others have on this board. Is it not at least somewhat delusional to expect coaches salaries to remain the same as they were 15 years ago? I look at it from a business standpoint and many on here are looking at it as fans. I think the reason coaching salaries have gotten out of line is that the have nots think they can elevate their program by simply paying their coach millions. Obviously, there are some programs that have the money and can afford it. I don't think we are in that league, nor is the MAC. Other than Gonzaga, please tell me how it's worked out for anyone else chasing the dream. There are plenty of others who have seen and sustained high levels of success while chasing the so-called dream. Depending on your definition of "has it worked" you could make the argument for any one of these. And before we get into specifics like demographics and endowment sizes, let's not act like Gonzaga is alone in this front simply because they've reached a National Title game and held a #1 seed a few times. Xavier Dayton Butler Wichita State These three have a long history of success from the past, but until recently (early 2000s or later) weren't in major conferences. Houston Cincinnati Louisville TCU - moreso a football example, but they went WAC -> C-USA -> Mountain West -> Big 12 in a matter of two decades. Investing heavily in the basketball program by hiring Jamie Dixon was huge for them. And then you can throw in your NCAA Tournament regulars who made their name during magical tourney runs like Davidson, VCU and Loyola and other well-known programs like Marquette, Temple and Providence. Are all of these programs national champions or have they even been to a Final Four? No. But you could hardly call them a failure for "chasing the dream." Back to Top OU_Country General User Member Since: 12/6/2005 Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County Post Count: 8,321 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/16/2022 11:50:50 AM  ^^^^^ Agreed! Back to Top Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame General User Member Since: 7/30/2010 Post Count: 3,304 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/16/2022 12:38:04 PM  GoCats105 wrote: Xavier Dayton Butler Wichita State Houston Cincinnati Louisville TCU Davidson, VCU and Loyola and other well-known programs like Marquette, Temple and Providence. There's a unifying theme with all of these programs (which also applies to Duquesne for what it's worth): market. Xavier, Butler, Houston, Cincinnati, TCU, Loyola, Temple, and Marquette are in major markets. Dayton, Wichita State, Louisville, VCU, and Providence are in mid-size cities. Only Davidson's a bit of an outlier, and even they're just outside of Charlotte. Those markets provide potential ROI for the investments they make. It means they're potentially attractive to larger conferences who are negotiating TV deals. I think the sad reality for OU is that the Athens market is just limits our upside from the vantage point of larger conferences. Back to Top cc-cat General User Member Since: 4/5/2006 Location: matthews, NC Post Count: 3,830 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/16/2022 1:24:32 PM  Xavier Dayton Butler Wichita State Davidson VCU Loyola Marquette Providence Hmmmmm, not exactly football powerhouses Back to Top Campus Flow General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Alexandria, VA Post Count: 4,959 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/16/2022 1:28:59 PM  Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote: GoCats105 wrote: Xavier Dayton Butler Wichita State Houston Cincinnati Louisville TCU Davidson, VCU and Loyola and other well-known programs like Marquette, Temple and Providence. There's a unifying theme with all of these programs (which also applies to Duquesne for what it's worth): market. Xavier, Butler, Houston, Cincinnati, TCU, Loyola, Temple, and Marquette are in major markets. Dayton, Wichita State, Louisville, VCU, and Providence are in mid-size cities. Only Davidson's a bit of an outlier, and even they're just outside of Charlotte. Those markets provide potential ROI for the investments they make. It means they're potentially attractive to larger conferences who are negotiating TV deals. I think the sad reality for OU is that the Athens market is just limits our upside from the vantage point of larger conferences. Then you are underscoring the need for OU to have football for another conference to deem it desirable to bring in since it can't rely on the metro basketball approach with no media market. Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended 2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round 2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl 2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086 Back to Top BillyTheCat General User Member Since: 10/6/2012 Post Count: 9,529 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/16/2022 1:30:28 PM  cc-cat wrote: Xavier Dayton Butler Wichita State Davidson VCU Loyola Marquette Providence Hmmmmm, not exactly football powerhouses Dayton has quite the tradition and history in football Back to Top cc-cat General User Member Since: 4/5/2006 Location: matthews, NC Post Count: 3,830 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/16/2022 2:34:50 PM  BillyTheCat wrote: Dayton has quite the tradition and history in football And often used in the same sentence as "football powerhouse" ;) Back to Top SBH General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Post Count: 3,766 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/16/2022 2:37:53 PM  BillyTheCat wrote: cc-cat wrote: Xavier Dayton Butler Wichita State Davidson VCU Loyola Marquette Providence Hmmmmm, not exactly football powerhouses Dayton has quite the tradition and history in football If I'm not mistaken, we tried to hire their football coach when we moved on from Cleve Bryant. Back to Top giacomo General User Member Since: 11/20/2007 Post Count: 2,633 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/16/2022 4:48:43 PM  The Athens market is a big reason we can't move up. Sure, we can try and spend a lot of money. Maybe if we had a Phil Knight type of supporter. I just don't see it. Iona is paying Rick Pitino 50M for 10 years! Are you kidding me? He didn't make the dance this year, either. I wonder who is ponying up. Maybe the My Pillow Biter guy. Back to Top Campus Flow General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Alexandria, VA Post Count: 4,959 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/16/2022 5:13:50 PM  giacomo wrote: The Athens market is a big reason we can't move up. Sure, we can try and spend a lot of money. Maybe if we had a Phil Knight type of supporter. I just don't see it. Iona is paying Rick Pitino 50M for 10 years! Are you kidding me? He didn't make the dance this year, either. I wonder who is ponying up. Maybe the My Pillow Biter guy. Rick Pitino is making 1.1 million at Iona from the sources I can find. Keep in mind again it is Rick Pitino so no way he's coming in for dean pay. https://paywizard.org/salary/vip-check/rick-pitino Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended 2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round 2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl 2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086 Back to Top GroverBall General User Member Since: 12/3/2012 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 1,241 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/16/2022 5:51:51 PM  Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote: GoCats105 wrote: Xavier Dayton Butler Wichita State Houston Cincinnati Louisville TCU Davidson, VCU and Loyola and other well-known programs like Marquette, Temple and Providence. There's a unifying theme with all of these programs (which also applies to Duquesne for what it's worth): market. Xavier, Butler, Houston, Cincinnati, TCU, Loyola, Temple, and Marquette are in major markets. Dayton, Wichita State, Louisville, VCU, and Providence are in mid-size cities. Only Davidson's a bit of an outlier, and even they're just outside of Charlotte. Those markets provide potential ROI for the investments they make. It means they're potentially attractive to larger conferences who are negotiating TV deals. I think the sad reality for OU is that the Athens market is just limits our upside from the vantage point of larger conferences. I'm not saying you're wrong, just curious -- Cincinnati is a "major market?" Even Cincinnati and Dayton combined have a smaller population than Louisville I believe. Why do you include Cincinnati as a "major market" and Louisville as a "mid-size city?" Is it because Greater Cincinnati/Tri-State Area is top 40 in Nielsen rankings? I think that's probably the answer, I just don't think of Cincinnati as a major market. But I don't think of Cleveland as a major market either and "Greater" Cleveland is much higher in Nielsen. Back to Top Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame General User Member Since: 7/30/2010 Post Count: 3,304 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/16/2022 8:38:36 PM  GroverBall wrote: Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote: GoCats105 wrote: Xavier Dayton Butler Wichita State Houston Cincinnati Louisville TCU Davidson, VCU and Loyola and other well-known programs like Marquette, Temple and Providence. There's a unifying theme with all of these programs (which also applies to Duquesne for what it's worth): market. Xavier, Butler, Houston, Cincinnati, TCU, Loyola, Temple, and Marquette are in major markets. Dayton, Wichita State, Louisville, VCU, and Providence are in mid-size cities. Only Davidson's a bit of an outlier, and even they're just outside of Charlotte. Those markets provide potential ROI for the investments they make. It means they're potentially attractive to larger conferences who are negotiating TV deals. I think the sad reality for OU is that the Athens market is just limits our upside from the vantage point of larger conferences. I'm not saying you're wrong, just curious -- Cincinnati is a "major market?" Even Cincinnati and Dayton combined have a smaller population than Louisville I believe. Why do you include Cincinnati as a "major market" and Louisville as a "mid-size city?" Is it because Greater Cincinnati/Tri-State Area is top 40 in Nielsen rankings? I think that's probably the answer, I just don't think of Cincinnati as a major market. But I don't think of Cleveland as a major market either and "Greater" Cleveland is much higher in Nielsen. That's interesting. I didn't do much digging, and honestly only ever went to Cincy twice. I just sort of assumed NFL team = big market. Back to Top GroverBall General User Member Since: 12/3/2012 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 1,241 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/16/2022 8:58:52 PM  Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote: GroverBall wrote: Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote: GoCats105 wrote: Xavier Dayton Butler Wichita State Houston Cincinnati Louisville TCU Davidson, VCU and Loyola and other well-known programs like Marquette, Temple and Providence. There's a unifying theme with all of these programs (which also applies to Duquesne for what it's worth): market. Xavier, Butler, Houston, Cincinnati, TCU, Loyola, Temple, and Marquette are in major markets. Dayton, Wichita State, Louisville, VCU, and Providence are in mid-size cities. Only Davidson's a bit of an outlier, and even they're just outside of Charlotte. Those markets provide potential ROI for the investments they make. It means they're potentially attractive to larger conferences who are negotiating TV deals. I think the sad reality for OU is that the Athens market is just limits our upside from the vantage point of larger conferences. I'm not saying you're wrong, just curious -- Cincinnati is a "major market?" Even Cincinnati and Dayton combined have a smaller population than Louisville I believe. Why do you include Cincinnati as a "major market" and Louisville as a "mid-size city?" Is it because Greater Cincinnati/Tri-State Area is top 40 in Nielsen rankings? I think that's probably the answer, I just don't think of Cincinnati as a major market. But I don't think of Cleveland as a major market either and "Greater" Cleveland is much higher in Nielsen. That's interesting. I didn't do much digging, and honestly only ever went to Cincy twice. I just sort of assumed NFL team = big market. Haha, was having this conversation recently. Green Bay? Back to Top OhioCatFan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 14,016 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/16/2022 11:07:29 PM  SBH wrote: BillyTheCat wrote: cc-cat wrote: Xavier Dayton Butler Wichita State Davidson VCU Loyola Marquette Providence Hmmmmm, not exactly football powerhouses Dayton has quite the tradition and history in football If I'm not mistaken, we tried to hire their football coach when we moved on from Cleve Bryant. From what I heard at this time I didn’t think we ever offered him, but he was a candidate. A friend of mine, who is a lawyer and from the Dayton area, was very upset when he wasn’t hired — thought he could really turn the program around. Do you know for a fact that he was offered the job? The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA "It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right." Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org Back to Top Campus Flow General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Alexandria, VA Post Count: 4,959 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/17/2022 12:34:05 AM  GroverBall wrote: Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote: GoCats105 wrote: Xavier Dayton Butler Wichita State Houston Cincinnati Louisville TCU Davidson, VCU and Loyola and other well-known programs like Marquette, Temple and Providence. There's a unifying theme with all of these programs (which also applies to Duquesne for what it's worth): market. Xavier, Butler, Houston, Cincinnati, TCU, Loyola, Temple, and Marquette are in major markets. Dayton, Wichita State, Louisville, VCU, and Providence are in mid-size cities. Only Davidson's a bit of an outlier, and even they're just outside of Charlotte. Those markets provide potential ROI for the investments they make. It means they're potentially attractive to larger conferences who are negotiating TV deals. I think the sad reality for OU is that the Athens market is just limits our upside from the vantage point of larger conferences. I'm not saying you're wrong, just curious -- Cincinnati is a "major market?" Even Cincinnati and Dayton combined have a smaller population than Louisville I believe. Why do you include Cincinnati as a "major market" and Louisville as a "mid-size city?" Is it because Greater Cincinnati/Tri-State Area is top 40 in Nielsen rankings? I think that's probably the answer, I just don't think of Cincinnati as a major market. But I don't think of Cleveland as a major market either and "Greater" Cleveland is much higher in Nielsen. Combined Statistical Area (CSA) provide a good view. As a general rule of thumb a population of 5,000,000 is large market for pro sports. Cleveland CSA is ranked #17 at 3.63 million. Cincinnati is #30 and that doesn't include Dayton. Louisville is #37. Dayton is #55 with just over 1 million. I think its fair to call any city with two of the Big 5 sports (MLB, MLS, NFL, NBA, NHL) a major market, if it doesn't classify as a large media market. Cincinnati has MLB, NFL and MLS. Cleveland has MLB, NFL and NBA. Dayton and Louisville don't even have one of the Big 5. Dayton of course is light years of a local corporate presence over Athens and really about the perfect size for a college sports market. Conferences do also look at academic profile, whether an institution has a footbal program and specific sports also. If the entire MAC moved down to FCS except Ohio CUSA would take us in on the basis of another FBS program to fill out the schedule as they did with no market New Mexico St. Without any football Ohio is hoping for a spot in the Ohio Valley Conference. Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended 2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round 2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl 2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086 Back to Top 100%Cat General User Member Since: 1/17/2013 Post Count: 2,493 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/17/2022 7:59:10 AM  Something about Groce (and I have been critical of him in the past) that I think has been somewhat overlooked this year has been that he made the coaching move of the year. How many other MAC coaches would have booted a senior starter mid-season like he did? And they have not lost since Trimble was shown the door. Sendy may have won coach of the year but Groce dismissing Trimble during the season was the best and gutsiest coaching move of the year in the MAC, in my opinion. Back to Top bobcatsquared General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Post Count: 5,054 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/17/2022 8:02:53 AM  The year began with Trimble and Ball St. transfer Walton starting in the Akron backcourt. Groce dismissed Walton in December, a couple of month before dismissing Trimble. Back to Top BillyTheCat General User Member Since: 10/6/2012 Post Count: 9,529 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/17/2022 8:45:39 AM  SBH wrote: BillyTheCat wrote: cc-cat wrote: Xavier Dayton Butler Wichita State Davidson VCU Loyola Marquette Providence Hmmmmm, not exactly football powerhouses Dayton has quite the tradition and history in football If I'm not mistaken, we tried to hire their football coach when we moved on from Cleve Bryant. Mike Kelly, yes we did. He didn't budge, and stayed at Dayton. Back to Top bigbadref General User Member Since: 1/31/2005 Location: 89 miles north of havanna Post Count: 19 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/17/2022 8:30:32 PM  Don't know how Duquesne can't turn the corner decent coaches over the years but no improvement. Coach Nee and Dambront ,Scott Edgar it doesn't make sense. hey ref call it both ways Back to Top bigbadref General User Member Since: 1/31/2005 Location: 89 miles north of havanna Post Count: 19 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/17/2022 8:40:24 PM  BillyTheCat wrote: SBH wrote: BillyTheCat wrote: cc-cat wrote: Xavier Dayton Butler Wichita State Davidson VCU Loyola Marquette Providence Hmmmmm, not exactly football powerhouses Dayton has quite the tradition and history in football If I'm not mistaken, we tried to hire their football coach when we moved on from Cleve Bryant. Mike Kelly, yes we did. He didn't budge, and stayed at Dayton. From what was reported at the time in Dayton he wanted to much control of the program. hey ref call it both ways Back to Top giacomo General User Member Since: 11/20/2007 Post Count: 2,633 Status: Offline     RE: Groce to a P6 School    Posted: 3/17/2022 11:26:42 PM  Club Hyatt wrote: giacomo wrote: The Athens market is a big reason we can't move up. Sure, we can try and spend a lot of money. Maybe if we had a Phil Knight type of supporter. I just don't see it. Iona is paying Rick Pitino 50M for 10 years! Are you kidding me? He didn't make the dance this year, either. I wonder who is ponying up. Maybe the My Pillow Biter guy. Rick Pitino is making 1.1 million at Iona from the sources I can find. Keep in mind again it is Rick Pitino so no way he's coming in for dean pay. https://paywizard.org/salary/vip-check/rick-pitino Pitino is likely worth at least 50M. If he wanted to coach Nelsonville CC for nothing, he could. Whatever Iona is paying him is ridiculous. 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