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Topic:  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....

Topic:  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 4:13:55 AM 
C Money wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
C Money wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Yeah, because 79-9 or 80-9 is so horrid...The message board folks are 1 thing, but OSU is not firing a guy for losing two games in a single season. If he leaves, on-field issues will not be the reason.


Wins and losses are not the only criteria in assessing coaching success.


Which is EXCATLY what I said above.


Then I misunderstood your post. No one is arguing that he doesn't win enough, so I saw your reference to wins and losses as a defense of Meyer staying.

My point was that wins and losses aside, you see a number of mental mistakes and unforced errors by osu this season. And I think that is a result of the circus the program has become.

You give any coach enough talent, he'll win games (Gene Chizik at Auburn). Doesn't mean he's a good coach.


We can dislike the guy all we want, however not sure we can dis his coaching ability. He has won and won big wherever he’s been and done so quickly. One of his big issues the last couple years on the field is he can not keep players in the program as they are constantly bolting for the NFL so he’s fielding a team of underclassmen every year. That has an effect.

At the end of the day though, those players are isolated from quite a bit of that circus that was going on.
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 9:18:47 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
We can dislike the guy all we want, however not sure we can dis his coaching ability. He has won and won big wherever he’s been and done so quickly. One of his big issues the last couple years on the field is he can not keep players in the program as they are constantly bolting for the NFL so he’s fielding a team of underclassmen every year. That has an effect.

At the end of the day though, those players are isolated from quite a bit of that circus that was going on.


Alright, so I'm confused. Are you saying wins and losses are enough to conclude that Meyer is a good coach, or are you saying that wins and losses aren't enough?

Because I thought you were saying the former, and then you said you meant the latter, and now seemingly you're saying the former again.

Anyhoo, yeah, I can dispute his coaching ability. He's got a gimmick offense and lucked into a national title with osu.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 10:01:47 AM 
C Money wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
We can dislike the guy all we want, however not sure we can dis his coaching ability. He has won and won big wherever he’s been and done so quickly. One of his big issues the last couple years on the field is he can not keep players in the program as they are constantly bolting for the NFL so he’s fielding a team of underclassmen every year. That has an effect.

At the end of the day though, those players are isolated from quite a bit of that circus that was going on.


Alright, so I'm confused. Are you saying wins and losses are enough to conclude that Meyer is a good coach, or are you saying that wins and losses aren't enough?

Because I thought you were saying the former, and then you said you meant the latter, and now seemingly you're saying the former again.

Anyhoo, yeah, I can dispute his coaching ability. He's got a gimmick offense and lucked into a national title with osu.


My gawd, can you read? My comments are that Urban will NOT be let go based on what is going on, on the field. And call his offense what you want, but the man has won and won big everywhere he's been. BGSU, Utah, Florida and OSU. His career winning % is among the top 3 in the NCAA, at BGSU he inherited a mess that is worse than BGSU is in right now, and he won there quickly. Utah he was 22-2, Florida he won 2 National Championships.

Again, like the guy or not, but to suggest he can't coach is ludicrous.
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Cbus Convo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 10:19:36 AM 
ExCat21 wrote:
Where would Meyer go if he did decide to leave? Pac12, ACC or Big12? Kansas just locked up Les Miles....


ESPN or Fox would lock him down fairly quickly. Urban has already had a broadcasting stint (the gap between Florida and OSU) and, if memory serves, he was really, really good in both the booth and in the studio.
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 10:52:29 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
C Money wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
We can dislike the guy all we want, however not sure we can dis his coaching ability. He has won and won big wherever he’s been and done so quickly. One of his big issues the last couple years on the field is he can not keep players in the program as they are constantly bolting for the NFL so he’s fielding a team of underclassmen every year. That has an effect.

At the end of the day though, those players are isolated from quite a bit of that circus that was going on.


Alright, so I'm confused. Are you saying wins and losses are enough to conclude that Meyer is a good coach, or are you saying that wins and losses aren't enough?

Because I thought you were saying the former, and then you said you meant the latter, and now seemingly you're saying the former again.

Anyhoo, yeah, I can dispute his coaching ability. He's got a gimmick offense and lucked into a national title with osu.


My gawd, can you read? My comments are that Urban will NOT be let go based on what is going on, on the field. And call his offense what you want, but the man has won and won big everywhere he's been. BGSU, Utah, Florida and OSU. His career winning % is among the top 3 in the NCAA, at BGSU he inherited a mess that is worse than BGSU is in right now, and he won there quickly. Utah he was 22-2, Florida he won 2 National Championships.

Again, like the guy or not, but to suggest he can't coach is ludicrous.


Communication is a two-way street, brother.

And I guess I'm ludicrous, because I don't think he is that good of a coach. A good coach over-performs with inferior talent. I see the opposite at osu.

I'll take Pat Fitzgerald over Urban Meyer any day.
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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 11:04:34 AM 
Cbus Convo wrote:
ESPN or Fox would lock him down fairly quickly. Urban has already had a broadcasting stint (the gap between Florida and OSU) and, if memory serves, he was really, really good in both the booth and in the studio.


I tend to doubt that. He was almost universally condemned by individuals on those networks for the Zach Smith situation (unfairly, I might add). Just don't feel any major network would go for it in today's overly-PC, "safe space" culture.
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spongeBOB CATpants
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 11:37:38 AM 
catfan28 wrote:
Cbus Convo wrote:
ESPN or Fox would lock him down fairly quickly. Urban has already had a broadcasting stint (the gap between Florida and OSU) and, if memory serves, he was really, really good in both the booth and in the studio.


I tend to doubt that. He was almost universally condemned by individuals on those networks for the Zach Smith situation (unfairly, I might add). Just don't feel any major network would go for it in today's overly-PC, "safe space" culture.


I could see him at Fox.
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 11:42:56 AM 
spongeBOB CATpants wrote:
catfan28 wrote:
Cbus Convo wrote:
ESPN or Fox would lock him down fairly quickly. Urban has already had a broadcasting stint (the gap between Florida and OSU) and, if memory serves, he was really, really good in both the booth and in the studio.


I tend to doubt that. He was almost universally condemned by individuals on those networks for the Zach Smith situation (unfairly, I might add). Just don't feel any major network would go for it in today's overly-PC, "safe space" culture.


I could see him at Fox.


Or the B10 network, which is run by Fox.

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 12:05:24 PM 
C Money wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
C Money wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
We can dislike the guy all we want, however not sure we can dis his coaching ability. He has won and won big wherever he’s been and done so quickly. One of his big issues the last couple years on the field is he can not keep players in the program as they are constantly bolting for the NFL so he’s fielding a team of underclassmen every year. That has an effect.

At the end of the day though, those players are isolated from quite a bit of that circus that was going on.


Alright, so I'm confused. Are you saying wins and losses are enough to conclude that Meyer is a good coach, or are you saying that wins and losses aren't enough?

Because I thought you were saying the former, and then you said you meant the latter, and now seemingly you're saying the former again.

Anyhoo, yeah, I can dispute his coaching ability. He's got a gimmick offense and lucked into a national title with osu.


My gawd, can you read? My comments are that Urban will NOT be let go based on what is going on, on the field. And call his offense what you want, but the man has won and won big everywhere he's been. BGSU, Utah, Florida and OSU. His career winning % is among the top 3 in the NCAA, at BGSU he inherited a mess that is worse than BGSU is in right now, and he won there quickly. Utah he was 22-2, Florida he won 2 National Championships.

Again, like the guy or not, but to suggest he can't coach is ludicrous.


Communication is a two-way street, brother.

And I guess I'm ludicrous, because I don't think he is that good of a coach. A good coach over-performs with inferior talent. I see the opposite at osu.

I'll take Pat Fitzgerald over Urban Meyer any day.


Your stance of Urban being a bad coach is based upon you believe he has a gimmick offense and too much talent. Funny, a recurring theme on this board is that the Head Coach is responsible for bringing in that talent or lack of talent. I am simply asking you for some measurable standard to draw your conclusion that Urban is not a good coach. He is the highest winning % in OSU history at .904%, so don't say anyone can recruit to OSU, because he's clearly found more success than any coach in OSU history. He is also the winningest active coach in Division I football with more than two seasons as a head coach. But yeah, the guy can't coach.
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 12:35:52 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Your stance of Urban being a bad coach is based upon you believe he has a gimmick offense and too much talent. Funny, a recurring theme on this board is that the Head Coach is responsible for bringing in that talent or lack of talent. I am simply asking you for some measurable standard to draw your conclusion that Urban is not a good coach. He is the highest winning % in OSU history at .904%, so don't say anyone can recruit to OSU, because he's clearly found more success than any coach in OSU history. He is also the winningest active coach in Division I football with more than two seasons as a head coach. But yeah, the guy can't coach.



Ok, let's break this down...
(A) I didn't bring up osu's talent. I said wins and losses aren't the sole measures of coaching success. You brought up their talent, claiming it is so good it actually hurts them because those awesomely talented athletes leave for the NFL.
(B) Are you really going to compare the resources and situations at Ohio vs. osu?
(C) It is possible to win a lot and also fail to exceed expectations.
(D) It is possible to understand Xs and Os and not be able to translate that knowledge into maximum team performance.
(E) I'm not going to give you a measurable standard because none exists. If all you care about is winning percentage, total wins, etc., then we are evaluating success in totally different terms.
(F) And that's fine if we are. My original point, which I think you agreed with but I can't read apparently so maybe not, is that wins and losses--"measurable criteria"--are not sufficient to judge a coach's ability.
(G) What I see with Urban Meyer, separate and apart from your "measurable criteria," is a coach who gives lip service to "Core Values" (see https://twitter.com/michiganinsider/status/10246663393514... /) but in reality makes excuses, passes blame, and can't handle the least bit of failure.
(H) But that's OK, I guess, because he's won a lot of football games, and that's a "measurable criteria."
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 1:16:55 PM 
C Money wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Your stance of Urban being a bad coach is based upon you believe he has a gimmick offense and too much talent. Funny, a recurring theme on this board is that the Head Coach is responsible for bringing in that talent or lack of talent. I am simply asking you for some measurable standard to draw your conclusion that Urban is not a good coach. He is the highest winning % in OSU history at .904%, so don't say anyone can recruit to OSU, because he's clearly found more success than any coach in OSU history. He is also the winningest active coach in Division I football with more than two seasons as a head coach. But yeah, the guy can't coach.



Ok, let's break this down...
(A) I didn't bring up osu's talent. I said wins and losses aren't the sole measures of coaching success. You brought up their talent, claiming it is so good it actually hurts them because those awesomely talented athletes leave for the NFL.
(B) Are you really going to compare the resources and situations at Ohio vs. osu?
(C) It is possible to win a lot and also fail to exceed expectations.
(D) It is possible to understand Xs and Os and not be able to translate that knowledge into maximum team performance.
(E) I'm not going to give you a measurable standard because none exists. If all you care about is winning percentage, total wins, etc., then we are evaluating success in totally different terms.
(F) And that's fine if we are. My original point, which I think you agreed with but I can't read apparently so maybe not, is that wins and losses--"measurable criteria"--are not sufficient to judge a coach's ability.
(G) What I see with Urban Meyer, separate and apart from your "measurable criteria," is a coach who gives lip service to "Core Values" (see https://twitter.com/michiganinsider/status/10246663393514... /) but in reality makes excuses, passes blame, and can't handle the least bit of failure.
(H) But that's OK, I guess, because he's won a lot of football games, and that's a "measurable criteria."



B - I never brought up OSU in comparison to OHIO.
C - Sounds like the folks who want to fire Frank
D - No one has ever won every game. If that's what you believe Urban should do, you are probably disappointed a lot in life with such high expectations.
E - If none exist, why do you continually insist that Urban is NOT a good coach?
F/G - Again, for the 30th time, my original post and everyone after has been solely to the comment that the guy can not coach on the field. Again, if he is NOT back, it will have nothing to do with on-field failure.
H - Again, my comments were about on-field performance only.


And nice use of a twitter to point out a schools "core" values. That same twitter handle was posting the names, addresses and phone numbers a few years ago of officials they did not like. Nothing like people with no-class calling others no-class.

Last Edited: 11/20/2018 1:18:52 PM by BillyTheCat
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 1:52:00 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:

B - I never brought up OSU in comparison to OHIO.
C - Sounds like the folks who want to fire Frank


And this is why I can't figure out what you are trying to say. You literally contradict yourself from sentence to sentence, but that's my failing for being unable to read.

Ok, so Meyer won't be fired because of on-field performance, because he is the winningest coach in osu history, but wins and losses aren't the only measure of on-field success, and anyone who thinks osu has enough talent should see all the players they lose to the NFL year after year, and Meyer has done an amazing job over-performing expectations given all that NFL talent on his roster.

Got it.

(Meanwhile, nah, Pat Fitzgerald is the best B1G coach.)
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DGowdy
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 8:35:43 PM 
C Money wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:

B - I never brought up OSU in comparison to OHIO.
C - Sounds like the folks who want to fire Frank


And this is why I can't figure out what you are trying to say. You literally contradict yourself from sentence to sentence, but that's my failing for being unable to read.

Ok, so Meyer won't be fired because of on-field performance, because he is the winningest coach in osu history, but wins and losses aren't the only measure of on-field success, and anyone who thinks osu has enough talent should see all the players they lose to the NFL year after year, and Meyer has done an amazing job over-performing expectations given all that NFL talent on his roster.

Got it.

(Meanwhile, nah, Pat Fitzgerald is the best B1G coach.)



Granted Billy "I tell on people" Cat is hard to swallow, but why is it only you fail to understand the logic here? You seem like you are trying to get your post total up to get a new badge on your profile. The BillytheClown is trying to tell you that if Urban gets fired its because he's failed off the field not on. You though keep trying to say in several ways that Urban is going to get fired for not winning enough.

Someone please send this to the trash.
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 9:29:08 PM 
DGowdy wrote:

Granted Billy "I tell on people" Cat is hard to swallow, but why is it only you fail to understand the logic here? You seem like you are trying to get your post total up to get a new badge on your profile. The BillytheClown is trying to tell you that if Urban gets fired its because he's failed off the field not on. You though keep trying to say in several ways that Urban is going to get fired for not winning enough.

Someone please send this to the trash.


#1, Welcome to Bobcat Attack.

#2, I follow this part of Billy's logic. I disagree with it somewhat. A probable 10-2 season would be good enough at most schools, but ending the season with an ugly loss at Purdue, an ugly win over Nebraska, an ugly win over Michigan State, an ugly win over Maryland, and (potentially) an ugly loss to Michigan is going to make the CowTownU faithful start to question whether the off-field drama is resulting in on-field trouble....and I think there is some merit to that thought process.

#3, where Billy and I disagree further is whether Meyer is a "good" coach. Billy appears to more heavily weigh the importance of wins and losses in that calculation, and I think performance relative to reasonable expectations, talent, and resources is more important. To me, you cannot consider the drama separate from the wins and losses because that is part of the job. I conceded in my earlier post that he and I will probably never agree on that point, and that's OK, because it's an opinion about sports that doesn't really matter.

#4, https://youtu.be/VqomZQMZQCQ?t=7

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 9:47:32 PM 
C Money wrote:
DGowdy wrote:

Granted Billy "I tell on people" Cat is hard to swallow, but why is it only you fail to understand the logic here? You seem like you are trying to get your post total up to get a new badge on your profile. The BillytheClown is trying to tell you that if Urban gets fired its because he's failed off the field not on. You though keep trying to say in several ways that Urban is going to get fired for not winning enough.

Someone please send this to the trash.


#1, Welcome to Bobcat Attack.

#2, I follow this part of Billy's logic. I disagree with it somewhat. A probable 10-2 season would be good enough at most schools, but ending the season with an ugly loss at Purdue, an ugly win over Nebraska, an ugly win over Michigan State, an ugly win over Maryland, and (potentially) an ugly loss to Michigan is going to make the CowTownU faithful start to question whether the off-field drama is resulting in on-field trouble....and I think there is some merit to that thought process.

#3, where Billy and I disagree further is whether Meyer is a "good" coach. Billy appears to more heavily weigh the importance of wins and losses in that calculation, and I think performance relative to reasonable expectations, talent, and resources is more important. To me, you cannot consider the drama separate from the wins and losses because that is part of the job. I conceded in my earlier post that he and I will probably never agree on that point, and that's OK, because it's an opinion about sports that doesn't really matter.

#4, https://youtu.be/VqomZQMZQCQ?t=7



I'll go straight to #4, are you the guy on FB who wears a MAGA hat and can only communicate through cute memes? Again, I HAVE STATED MANY MANY TIMES that my original and all subsequent post were in regards to the post that stated Meyer would be fired for failure on the field. I have IN NO WAY commented on any other aspect of this other than to say that he will NOT be fired for a WON/LOSS record. Yet you are too freaking hard headed to understand that. And with your "ugly win at Nebraska, Ugly win over Maryland comments you sound like an OSU poster, or the new fangled OHIO poster who wants to fire Frank because we win games but haven't won a championship.

YOU are the only person who wants to bring resources into this, I have not, and will not, you find it a way to justify your keeping this petty bullshit going. What's funny is a first time poster understands what I am saying, you obviously are too obtuse.
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 10:23:29 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
I have IN NO WAY commented on any other aspect of this other than to say that he will NOT be fired for a WON/LOSS record.



That is NOT what you said. You said he would not be fired for "on-field performance." You may have meant win/loss record, and that may very well be where this entire thread went off the rails...because my comment was that wins and losses are not the only criteria used in evaluating success, which you said is exactly what you said. And I then admitted in response--bottom post on the first page of this thread--that maybe I misinterpreted your post.

So, how about this: I agree that Meyer's win/loss record will not be the basis of any firing decision. However, I also say that win/loss record is not a perfect measure of "on-field performance," and that a coach with a perfectly reasonable win/loss record--even a great win/loss record--can still be let go for disappointing "on-field performance" because (a) perception is reality, and (b) college sports is irrational.

And for an osu-specific reference, see: John Cooper.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 10:37:28 PM 
C Money wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
I have IN NO WAY commented on any other aspect of this other than to say that he will NOT be fired for a WON/LOSS record.



That is NOT what you said. You said he would not be fired for "on-field performance." You may have meant win/loss record, and that may very well be where this entire thread went off the rails...because my comment was that wins and losses are not the only criteria used in evaluating success, which you said is exactly what you said. And I then admitted in response--bottom post on the first page of this thread--that maybe I misinterpreted your post.

So, how about this: I agree that Meyer's win/loss record will not be the basis of any firing decision. However, I also say that win/loss record is not a perfect measure of "on-field performance," and that a coach with a perfectly reasonable win/loss record--even a great win/loss record--can still be let go for disappointing "on-field performance" because (a) perception is reality, and (b) college sports is irrational.

And for an osu-specific reference, see: John Cooper.





On field performance is Wins and Losses....Not real sure what you call it. Expand it a bit, they have not had any riots or ugly scenes on the field with opponents, so expand to meet your definition, I'll still stand by my statement. You claimed that players were sloppy, well, yeah that happens and happens to every team. Problem is your penis envy of others is showing through here. And your argument of John Cooper is laughable, the records are not even comparable, the success in big games is laughable, there is literally zero comparison that can be made on the field. but nice try. Go to Earl Bruce even, any one who knows what was up, Earl's downfall was stiffing the Wolfe family on an interview request because he had a previous commitment. Not to mention, good luck finding someone to pay out what Urban has left on his contract when the only justification would be lost two games this year.

Last Edited: 11/20/2018 10:38:23 PM by BillyTheCat
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/20/2018 10:46:43 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:


On field performance is Wins and Losses....Not real sure what you call it.



And there we go. Our basic definition of success is different. And we hashed that out like the calm, rational people we are.


BillyTheCat wrote:

Not to mention, good luck finding someone to pay out what Urban has left on his contract when the only justification would be lost two games this year.


I 100% agree with this conclusion. At the end of the day, economics will win--and nobody cares enough about "on-field performance" (yet) to write a $38 million check.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/24/2018 3:34:20 PM 
Don’t look now but that gimmick offense has put 48 on the Nations #1 total defense, and #3 scoring defense.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/24/2018 3:41:29 PM 
Sorry 55 points
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/24/2018 3:42:53 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Don’t look now but that gimmick offense has put 48 on the Nations #1 total defense, and #3 scoring defense.



Yep, they sure did! I guess that means you agree that performance relative to competition matters more than a strict analysis of wins vs. losses.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/24/2018 3:49:41 PM 
Oops 62

Not bad for a gimmick v #1 defense
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C Money
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   Posted: 11/24/2018 3:53:57 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Oops 62

Not bad for a gimmick v #1 defense


So which is it Billy?

Is this osu win equivalent to the win over Maryland because wins and losses are the measure of on-field performance? Or does it matter more because Michigan's defense is #1?

Because if it's just wins and losses you have to treat a win over Maryland or Oregon State or Rutgers the same as this one.

Edit: BTW, https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gimmick

Last Edited: 11/24/2018 3:59:43 PM by C Money
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/24/2018 4:05:33 PM 
Win is a win, always! However, any coach or athlete will tell you some wins give more satisfaction than others. But I’m still struggling to see how you call the spread a gimmick when it’s the most used offense in college football. Your ability to do mental gymnastics is hilarious

Last Edited: 11/24/2018 4:08:38 PM by BillyTheCat
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Im not a Buckeyes fan but....
   Posted: 11/24/2018 4:15:00 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Win is a win, always! But I’m still struggling to see how you call the spread a gimmick when it’s the most used offense in college football. Your ability to do mental gymnastics is hilarious



I never said it was a bad offense. I said it was a gimmick offense: it's based in misdirection and creating athletic mismatches. That's easier to do when you can recruit blue-chip talent across the board and have multiple athletic mismatch opportunities. Osu's OC is a Chip Kelly protege--we saw what happened to Chip in the NFL where those athletic mismatches aren't there anymore.

Also, "spread" is too generic of a term. Osu's "spread" is not the same as the Air Raid. It's closer to single-wing football, IMO.
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