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Topic:  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?

Topic:  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 9:37:27 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
giacomo wrote:
I donít see anything wrong with any kid making as much money as he can. Coaches move around all the time for bigger money. If a kid tending bar at Catís Den was offered more money at Swankyís, we think nothing of it. You and I do it all the time. Why not these kids?


Because,unlike a kid tending bar,these kids are getting a free college education.



I don't understand why receiving a free education requires one to limit somebody's opportunity to earn money otherwise. We wouldn't feel okay about it if somebody was on an academic scholarship and was told they couldn't, say, take a paid internship at Goldman Sachs because of it.

Why is athletics different? I really struggle to understand the moral basis for insisting this is bad. I don't understand what the moral code's based on. The arguments seem to basically be rooted in tradition and maintaining competitive balance, and not about what is inherently fair.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 10:05:58 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


I don't understand why receiving a free education requires one to limit somebody's opportunity to earn money otherwise. We wouldn't feel okay about it if somebody was on an academic scholarship and was told they couldn't, say, take a paid internship at Goldman Sachs because of it.

Why is athletics different? I really struggle to understand the moral basis for insisting this is bad. I don't understand what the moral code's based on. The arguments seem to basically be rooted in tradition and maintaining competitive balance, and not about what is inherently fair.


First off,how many academic scholarships approach the full ride athletes get ?

Athletics is different,because the student in question is only able to receive endorsement money based on his representing a particular school.

If an athlete wants to sell his services to the highest bidder,that's fine.
Go pro and provide an opening for a true student athlete.
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IceCat76
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 10:11:52 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
giacomo wrote:
I donít see anything wrong with any kid making as much money as he can. Coaches move around all the time for bigger money. If a kid tending bar at Catís Den was offered more money at Swankyís, we think nothing of it. You and I do it all the time. Why not these kids?


Because,unlike a kid tending bar,these kids are getting a free college education.



I don't understand why receiving a free education requires one to limit somebody's opportunity to earn money otherwise. We wouldn't feel okay about it if somebody was on an academic scholarship and was told they couldn't, say, take a paid internship at Goldman Sachs because of it.

Why is athletics different? I really struggle to understand the moral basis for insisting this is bad. I don't understand what the moral code's based on. The arguments seem to basically be rooted in tradition and maintaining competitive balance, and not about what is inherently fair.


Most NCAA rules are put in place to try and correct an abuse of some sort. The restrictions on outside income were put in place for a reason. During the 60s & 70s scholarship athletes were being paid for no show jobs by boosters. The job restrictions were put in place to address the amateurism side of it but more importantly to level the playing field so that schools like 'Bama and Texas in football and Kentucky in basketball couldn't buy up the best athletes. Recall that scholarship numbers were virtually unlimited and boosters were working behind the scenes to stockpile talent.

The income issue in basketball can be cleared up very easily. The NBA should lift its ban on drafting HS seniors. If a player wants to play for pay he can turn pro. The NCAA has no obligation to allow supplemental income to one and doners. The NCAA has no obligation to be a farm league for basketball and football. Let the NBA and NFL run their own minor leagues. The NHL and MLB do it. A hockey player has several options coming out of HS. Go pro, go to college, go to Canadian juniors. Baseball players can to college or go pro. Why is the NCAA obligated to provide an alternate step, with pay, for basketball and football?

Developing a minor league option for football and basketball may lead to a drop in some talent level in the NCAA, but not so much that the overall product is diluted.

On the NCAA side, they need to evenly distribute the profits from the tournaments. The schools should then be required to provide a stipend to EVERY scholarship athlete, male and female. Back in the day the schools gave out "laundry" money. I know for a fact that Ohio did it in the early "70s. The issue back then was that some envelopes were fatter than others. But it can be policed and all athletes can benefit.

The thing I find bogus about this Name and Likeness baloney is that outside of a very few of the kids' Name and Likeness aren't worth much if not associated with big time school. And not worth much except to a booster that wants make points with an AD. Those very few that are worth something should probably go pro anyway.


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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 10:25:37 AM 
IceCat76 wrote:

Recall that scholarship numbers were virtually unlimited and boosters were working behind the scenes to stockpile talent.



Years ago Bear Bryant gave an interview.
He talked about the number of players he had on football scholarships.

He made it very clear that the only reason certain players got a scholarship was so they wouldn't go to one of Alabama's competitors.

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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 10:52:32 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
giacomo wrote:
I donít see anything wrong with any kid making as much money as he can. Coaches move around all the time for bigger money. If a kid tending bar at Catís Den was offered more money at Swankyís, we think nothing of it. You and I do it all the time. Why not these kids?


Because,unlike a kid tending bar,these kids are getting a free college education.



I don't understand why receiving a free education requires one to limit somebody's opportunity to earn money otherwise. We wouldn't feel okay about it if somebody was on an academic scholarship and was told they couldn't, say, take a paid internship at Goldman Sachs because of it.

Why is athletics different? I really struggle to understand the moral basis for insisting this is bad. I don't understand what the moral code's based on. The arguments seem to basically be rooted in tradition and maintaining competitive balance, and not about what is inherently fair.


In graduate school, our scholarship+stipend agreements had an absolute bar on outside employment without the express written permission of our advisor, our department chair, and the graduate dean. While we were being paid actual money (ďtuitionĒ + $21,000/year in 2012, from which university fees, insurance, parking, and taxes were deducted), we were not receiving room + board + tutoring + training table, etc.

So letís drop this pretense that itís unique a unique requirement placed on university athletes.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 11:44:40 AM 
IceCat76 wrote:

Most NCAA rules are put in place to try and correct an abuse of some sort. The restrictions on outside income were put in place for a reason. During the 60s & 70s scholarship athletes were being paid for no show jobs by boosters. The job restrictions were put in place to address the amateurism side of it but more importantly to level the playing field so that schools like 'Bama and Texas in football and Kentucky in basketball couldn't buy up the best athletes. Recall that scholarship numbers were virtually unlimited and boosters were working behind the scenes to stockpile talent.


This all makes sense and I understand that the rules came about in direct response to problems. What I'm suggesting -- though obviously not clearly enough -- is that the adherence to such a strict definition of amateurism and a desire to level the playing field shouldn't necessarily be the driving factors that they once were. Boosters paying athletes for no show jobs is only something that needs to be legislated away if you accept that athletes shouldn't get paid at all. The fundamental question I'm asking is why it's so important to people that athletes not have the ability to earn money through endorsements.

The answer seems to be mostly about competitive balance, and from a moral standpoint I just can't really justify -- for myself -- valuing that over such basic individual freedoms.

IceCat76 wrote:

The income issue in basketball can be cleared up very easily. The NBA should lift its ban on drafting HS seniors.


I think the NBA already agreed to do this. I think HS Seniors will be eligible for the draft again in coming years.

The NFL's policy is much more restrictive. I think Harbaugh's suggestion is an interesting one.

IceCat76 wrote:

The NCAA has no obligation to allow supplemental income to one and doners. The NCAA has no obligation to be a farm league for basketball and football. Let the NBA and NFL run their own minor leagues.


You're right, they have no obligation to do so. However they do have a huge financial interest in continuing to do so. There's nothing stopping the NCAA or its member schools from deciding tomorrow to not even offer athletic scholarships and to insist that players just play for the love of the game. They don't do so because there's a huge, huge amount of money in college sports and they want that money.

The NCAA and its member schools have very, very consciously turned amateur athletics into a big business that generates -- for some schools -- a whole lot of money. Anybody running a business has to consider the needs of labor, and it was only a matter of time before the NCAA's ability to have their cake and eat it too came to an end.

IceCat76 wrote:

The NHL and MLB do it. A hockey player has several options coming out of HS. Go pro, go to college, go to Canadian juniors. Baseball players can to college or go pro. Why is the NCAA obligated to provide an alternate step, with pay, for basketball and football?


They aren't obligated to do so. At least not yet, legally speaking. The reason they have decided to do so is because they can't form a winning argument in the court of public opinion (or, for that matter, in actual courts in the states who passed legislation) against doing so. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

IceCat76 wrote:

On the NCAA side, they need to evenly distribute the profits from the tournaments. The schools should then be required to provide a stipend to EVERY scholarship athlete, male and female. Back in the day the schools gave out "laundry" money. I know for a fact that Ohio did it in the early "70s. The issue back then was that some envelopes were fatter than others. But it can be policed and all athletes can benefit.


I'd be cool with that. I'm also cool with schools not shouldering any of the burden of paying folks for their talent and just lifting restrictions on what athletes can otherwise earn.

IceCat76 wrote:

The thing I find bogus about this Name and Likeness baloney is that outside of a very few of the kids' Name and Likeness aren't worth much if not associated with big time school. And not worth much except to a booster that wants make points with an AD. Those very few that are worth something should probably go pro anyway.


But isn't that just an acknowledgement that the market does what it's supposed to do? The vast majority of college athletes aren't worth any money to their schools. The vast majority lose money for their schools. Which is exactly why it's an unreasonable requirement to expect schools to pay all of them. This system just opens up athletes to the free market so that those that can earn do earn. Outside of my own selfish interest in watching competitive college basketball and football games, I can't really think of any other reason why it should matter to me whether that money comes from a legitimate endorsement deal or a booster.

Last Edited: 5/8/2020 11:50:48 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 11:47:41 AM 
mf279801 wrote:

In graduate school, our scholarship+stipend agreements had an absolute bar on outside employment without the express written permission of our advisor, our department chair, and the graduate dean. While we were being paid actual money (ďtuitionĒ + $21,000/year in 2012, from which university fees, insurance, parking, and taxes were deducted), we were not receiving room + board + tutoring + training table, etc.

So letís drop this pretense that itís unique a unique requirement placed on university athletes.


That's interesting. I wasn't aware of that. What graduate program were you in and how often did they actually deny you the right to earn more? I've never, for instance, heard of an MBA program keeping its students from working paid internships. Every big CS school in the country actually touts the high pay of summer internships as one of their selling points.
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 12:14:37 PM 
Some very good points. However, what is forgotten in the coaches compensation. I've mentioned this before, when I lived in Ann Arbor after graduation in 1981 there was a story in the paper on UM compensation. The president made 105k and Bo Schembechler made 100k. Now, 39 years later, Jim Harbaugh makes 9M. The value of that 100k today, at 3.5% inflation, is 382,537. Of course, Bo had some other perks and compensation not on the books, but not anywhere close to today. So, if the salaries were in line with that era today, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 12:24:47 PM 
Let's also appreciate that schools offer most athletes partial scholarships because it is a way to assure they get income from the student athlete paying the remainder the tuition. Div II III and NAIA schools add sports to their athletic programs because it is way to get students on campus - they offer partials (or in the case of NAIA "grants") with the students (parents) paying often large balances. They know it is about business, but feign shock and horror when the discussion turns to compensating the athletes-students.

Time to stop the fantasizing about college athletics in a "Chip Hilton" world. Has not been that for decades. It is more "Billions" (throwing a bone to a sometimes BA poster) than Chip Hilton / Gil Thorp.

Last Edited: 5/8/2020 12:26:58 PM by cc-cat

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 1:02:41 PM 
cc-cat wrote:
Let's also appreciate that schools offer most athletes partial scholarships because it is a way to assure they get income from the student athlete paying the remainder the tuition.


That's not the case with D1 wrestling.

In college there are 10 weight classes.

Most teams have at least 2 and more likely 3 guys per weight class.

The NCAA allots a maximum of 9.9 scholarships per team.

So most kids aren't going to get anything near a full scholarship.

Check out http://www.athleticscholarships.net/division-1-colleges-s...

Other then football and basketball and to some extent, baseball,most D1 sports have a pretty small pie to split among team members.

Also interesting how many more scholarships women have then men,for the same sport.









Last Edited: 5/8/2020 1:13:29 PM by rpbobcat

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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 1:30:16 PM 
RP - think we are saying the same thing - few athletes get full - most get partials - which requires them pay the rest- creates income for the school. It's like giving away a free soda with a meal - great profit play by restaurants.

Last Edited: 5/8/2020 1:31:31 PM by cc-cat

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 2:06:32 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
Let's also appreciate that schools offer most athletes partial scholarships because it is a way to assure they get income from the student athlete paying the remainder the tuition.


Also interesting how many more scholarships women have then men,for the same sport.



That's to balance out footbal.

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 2:59:32 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
Let's also appreciate that schools offer most athletes partial scholarships because it is a way to assure they get income from the student athlete paying the remainder the tuition.


Also interesting how many more scholarships women have then men,for the same sport.



That's to balance out footbal.


I understand about balancing out for football.

But there's no consideration given to a school like Lehigh that plays in the FCS,where they have a total of the equivalent 63 full scholarships for football,as opposed to 85 for the FBS schools.



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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 3:03:33 PM 
cc-cat wrote:
RP - think we are saying the same thing - few athletes get full - most get partials - which requires them pay the rest- creates income for the school. It's like giving away a free soda with a meal - great profit play by restaurants.


A lot of it comes down to how much you like a sport.

Those of us who played D1 soccer or wrestled knew we had no chance at a full ride.

I was going to play soccer or wrestle,scholarship or not.

So I always looked at situation that something was better then nothing.

Although, at O.U. we had a total of 1 scholarship.
So playing there was solely for the love of the game
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 4:56:33 PM 
giacomo wrote:
Some very good points. However, what is forgotten in the coaches compensation. I've mentioned this before, when I lived in Ann Arbor after graduation in 1981 there was a story in the paper on UM compensation. The president made 105k and Bo Schembechler made 100k. Now, 39 years later, Jim Harbaugh makes 9M. The value of that 100k today, at 3.5% inflation, is 382,537. Of course, Bo had some other perks and compensation not on the books, but not anywhere close to today. So, if the salaries were in line with that era today, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.


Donít think Harbaugh doesnít have perks not on the books, plus his $9 million
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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 6:08:31 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:

A lot of it comes down to how much you like a sport.


And the schools leveraging that love. I work with an NAIA school that added football because, after running the numbers, they knew they would make money by adding 70 more students paying tuition. They also calculated how many would drop out each year - and, more valuably - how many would drop the sport after a year or two but stay in school = paying tuition. As you can attest, few students realize the time investment needed even at the NAIA or ciub level. Add the time investment to the realization being the best baseball player in pick your town USA, doesn't translate to playing time at the college level and a larger percentage drop the sport once on campus.... but stay on campus paying tuition. All a business to the institution.
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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: How much is Trevor Lawrence worth?
   Posted: 5/8/2020 7:03:56 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
mf279801 wrote:

In graduate school, our scholarship+stipend agreements had an absolute bar on outside employment without the express written permission of our advisor, our department chair, and the graduate dean. While we were being paid actual money (ďtuitionĒ + $21,000/year in 2012, from which university fees, insurance, parking, and taxes were deducted), we were not receiving room + board + tutoring + training table, etc.

So letís drop this pretense that itís unique a unique requirement placed on university athletes.


That's interesting. I wasn't aware of that. What graduate program were you in and how often did they actually deny you the right to earn more? I've never, for instance, heard of an MBA program keeping its students from working paid internships. Every big CS school in the country actually touts the high pay of summer internships as one of their selling points.


Ph.D. Program in tumor immunology. I was at SUNY Buffalo, but from what Iíve seen itís a pretty common restriction among Ph.D. programs.
Deny? They donít have to go so far as to deny. You ever try to get written permission from a department chair AND a dean to be allowed to pick up an evening job?

Now, thatís not to say that they had a strong enforcement mechanism (not unlike the lack of an enforcement mechanism against $100 handshakes from boosters), but it was grounds for them to get rid of you if they wanted to.
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