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Topic:  RE: Interesting ANews Article

Topic:  RE: Interesting ANews Article
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/10/2020 11:25:36 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
Is there anyway to see what the out of state student's major are and what college they are enrolled? I seem to recall that a good many out state students I knew where drawn to Ohio because of our excellent Journalism and English school. Many of my friends who were International students were Engineering majors. With fewer International students coming to this part of the country, as well as other factors like more Third World nations building their own institutions of higher learning, this will have an impact on International student numbers.

I realize my time in Athens was more than few moons ago, but I have heard from parents whose kids are about to graduate that there are not as many kids considering Journalism, English etc as there once was. I have got a few years before my kids have to make those kind of decisions, so I am not as in the loop as I will be. Just curious of anyone else's thoughts.


Here are the number of freshmen journalism majors by year starting in the fall of 2011:

2011 - 231
2012 - 243
2013 - 237
2014 - 209
2015 - 199
2016 - 162
2017 - 143
2018 - 133
2019 - 113

This chart shows similar numbers and the same precipitous decline.

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/student/FrProfileMajor.html



Are these figures for the entire J-school - all 5 sequences? Or just print and/or magazine journalism?


http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/10/2020 11:28:25 AM 
Mike Johnson wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
Is there anyway to see what the out of state student's major are and what college they are enrolled? I seem to recall that a good many out state students I knew where drawn to Ohio because of our excellent Journalism and English school. Many of my friends who were International students were Engineering majors. With fewer International students coming to this part of the country, as well as other factors like more Third World nations building their own institutions of higher learning, this will have an impact on International student numbers.

I realize my time in Athens was more than few moons ago, but I have heard from parents whose kids are about to graduate that there are not as many kids considering Journalism, English etc as there once was. I have got a few years before my kids have to make those kind of decisions, so I am not as in the loop as I will be. Just curious of anyone else's thoughts.


Here are the number of freshmen journalism majors by year starting in the fall of 2011:

2011 - 231
2012 - 243
2013 - 237
2014 - 209
2015 - 199
2016 - 162
2017 - 143
2018 - 133
2019 - 113

This chart shows similar numbers and the same precipitous decline.

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/student/FrProfileMajor.html



Are these figures for the entire J-school - all 5 sequences? Or just print and/or magazine journalism?


Click on the link and it will show the breakdown for all five sequences. The figures are for just journalism.

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Mike Johnson
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Member Since: 11/11/2004
Location: North Canton, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/10/2020 11:57:38 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Mike Johnson wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
Is there anyway to see what the out of state student's major are and what college they are enrolled? I seem to recall that a good many out state students I knew where drawn to Ohio because of our excellent Journalism and English school. Many of my friends who were International students were Engineering majors. With fewer International students coming to this part of the country, as well as other factors like more Third World nations building their own institutions of higher learning, this will have an impact on International student numbers.

I realize my time in Athens was more than few moons ago, but I have heard from parents whose kids are about to graduate that there are not as many kids considering Journalism, English etc as there once was. I have got a few years before my kids have to make those kind of decisions, so I am not as in the loop as I will be. Just curious of anyone else's thoughts.


Here are the number of freshmen journalism majors by year starting in the fall of 2011:

2011 - 231
2012 - 243
2013 - 237
2014 - 209
2015 - 199
2016 - 162
2017 - 143
2018 - 133
2019 - 113

This chart shows similar numbers and the same precipitous decline.

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/student/FrProfileMajor.html



Are these figures for the entire J-school - all 5 sequences? Or just print and/or magazine journalism?


Click on the link and it will show the breakdown for all five sequences. The figures are for just journalism.


Thanks for clarifying, Alan. I can't say that the decline in enrollment in print journalism is surprising. Indeed, it is somewhat surprising that top notch newspapers - NYT, WSJ, LA Times and a few others - are still able to attract excellent journalists.


http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/10/2020 12:30:55 PM 
Mike Johnson wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Mike Johnson wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
Is there anyway to see what the out of state student's major are and what college they are enrolled? I seem to recall that a good many out state students I knew where drawn to Ohio because of our excellent Journalism and English school. Many of my friends who were International students were Engineering majors. With fewer International students coming to this part of the country, as well as other factors like more Third World nations building their own institutions of higher learning, this will have an impact on International student numbers.

I realize my time in Athens was more than few moons ago, but I have heard from parents whose kids are about to graduate that there are not as many kids considering Journalism, English etc as there once was. I have got a few years before my kids have to make those kind of decisions, so I am not as in the loop as I will be. Just curious of anyone else's thoughts.


Here are the number of freshmen journalism majors by year starting in the fall of 2011:

2011 - 231
2012 - 243
2013 - 237
2014 - 209
2015 - 199
2016 - 162
2017 - 143
2018 - 133
2019 - 113

This chart shows similar numbers and the same precipitous decline.

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/student/FrProfileMajor.html



Are these figures for the entire J-school - all 5 sequences? Or just print and/or magazine journalism?


Click on the link and it will show the breakdown for all five sequences. The figures are for just journalism.


Thanks for clarifying, Alan. I can't say that the decline in enrollment in print journalism is surprising. Indeed, it is somewhat surprising that top notch newspapers - NYT, WSJ, LA Times and a few others - are still able to attract excellent journalists.


I believe that the way that's reported it includes all the sequences in journalism -- Broadcast News, News Writing and Editing (print), Public Relations (now called strategic communication), Magazine, Advertising, and Online Journalism.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/11/2020 10:21:21 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
From OU's website today. I found this bullet point most interesting:

Shift our enrollment efforts from heavily in-state undergraduate to a more balanced demographic aiming, to increase the overall percentage of adult learners and
non-traditional students, transfer students, out-of-state and international students, and under-represented groups

https://www.ohio.edu/president/ohio-strategic-framework/s...

Yikes.

So by "their" definition, what is a "balanced demographic aiming?"

If the goal is to maximize $ flow, the choice is obvious. We should just target Chinese students.

There are 1.4 billion people in China compared to 330 million people in America. There are 11 or 12 million in Ohio.

With all due respect to Miami sorority girls, the international students from China whose parent's own a manufacturing plant have way more money than your middle management parents. The math isn't that hard.

Now, I don't believe that's ideal for Ohio University... I'm of the opinion the majority of "Ohio" students should be from "Ohio" but what do I know...


To your point here are UVA's enrollment numbers.

Class of 2019 Undergraduate Profile:

70% are Virginia residents
31.1% are minority students
5.3% are from outside of the United States
69.8% graduated from a public secondary school
24.0% graduated from a private secondary school
53.5% receive some form of financial aid
87.2% ranked in the highest tenth of their high school graduating class
Mean combined SAT score was 663 Verbal, 671 Math and 665 Writing
Admissions: Of 23,593 Fall 2015 applicants, 6,991 students were offered admission, and 2,852 enrolled


I found this on Miami's website, though Miami is clearly playing a little trick here to make their class rank and test scores look better. They're putting out the "admitted students" rather than actual freshman class numbers. The latter will clearly not be as good since people at the bottom of the "admitted class" will be far more likely to enroll than people at the top of the admitted class to whom Miami was most likely were accepted to schools higher up their list.

In any event, only 43.3% of "admitted students were from Ohio. I guess that's what I mean when I talk about the degree to which Miami has turned its back on Ohio. UVA is an actual elite, national public university (what Miami delusionally thinks it is), yet it still takes 70% of its students from Virginia.

https://miamioh.edu/admission/high-school/admitted-studen...

As for OSU, I did find a comment from their outgoing President that they see 1/3 out of state as an ideal figure and aren't looking to go much beyond that.

What would be interesting in judging Ohio's efforts vis-a-vis Miami and OSU would be to get ahold of how much money each school spends on out of state recruitment and then weight that by the size of their freshman classes. I'd bet that number would be highest by a mile at Miami, and that we'd significantly be trailing OSU.


Despite the "admitted student" rate, 61% of the student body is from Ohio. It seems like Miami is aware that admission acceptance rates will be much higher for in state students and lower for out of state and international students, so they accommodate accordingly.

Ohio State -- the flagship state school -- expects in state enrollment to be 65% by next year. If that 4% difference enough to strip state funding from Miami but not do the same with OSU?

It seems like you're holding Miami to a unique standard over a difference that only seems to be one of degree.

And again, we're currently undergoing layoffs and will likely undergo more. A greater investment in international/OOS recruitment would likely have been a wise strategy.




Getting back to Ohio, the best way to attract those out of state students is by being selective and highly ranked, which is why it's such a tragedy that we failed to capitalize on favorable demographic trends a decade ago to tighten up our admissions profile. Now we're trying to sail into the wind so to speak.


Isn't this exactly what you have been accusing Miami of doing successfully?



I don't think so because it's not a dichotomous, black-and-white, either-or situation. There's a lot of grey area between what Miami has turned itself into and an open-admission school that makes no effort to recruit out of state students. The country is full of public universities that are as selective or more selective than Miami that still manage to attract diverse student bodies, students from a wide range of socio-economic backgrounds all the while not turning their back on their states. Those schools are what Ohio should be aspiring to become.


If you look at the Miami data, they do exactly that. I guess I don't get your hatred of Miami.



Are you seriously suggesting that Miami has a socio-economically diverse student body? As I posted earlier, out of the thousands of public colleges in this country, only one (William & Mary) enrolls a lower percentage of Pell Grant students.

Here's some data from a recent (2017) database that the NYT put together.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/som...

School/Category/Students from top 1% income families:
Miami "Selective Public Colleges" 7%, only Oberlin & Denison in Ohio are higher
Ohio "Selective Public Colleges" <1%
OSU "Highly Selective Public Colleges" 2%

Top 10%
Miami 37% (27%)
Ohio 19%
OSU 25%

Top 20%
Miami 54%
Ohio 38%
OSU 46%

Middle 60%
Miami 41.2%
Ohio 55.7%
OSU 49%

Bottom 20%
Miami 4.8%
Ohio 6.3%
OSU 5%

While all three could do better at the bottom, it would certainly seem that Ohio and OSU are doing a significantly better job of enrolling middle class students (and in OSU's case with admission standards higher than Miami's to a degree that the NYT puts them in a different category). And it's not just socio-economic diversity. Dig deeper into it, and it's underrepresented groups, it's first-generation college students, it's political diversity, it's academic diversity (how many Miami students/alums have you ever met that didn't major in either business or eduation?). Miami has the reputation that it does for very solid reasons that have been in place for decades and speak directly to the core of the institution, what it values and how it sees itself.

So yes, increase Ohio's selectivity and up (to a reasonable degree) the percent of out of state students, but I'd argue strongly our model for doing that is in Columbus (or 20 other public campuses) not Oxford.


Last Edited: 2/11/2020 11:59:37 AM by OUPride

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/11/2020 10:47:45 AM 
OUPride: I have a serious question that I think you are probably the best person to ask given your many posts about the Yale of the West. Back in the day, when I first started at OHIO in the 1960s, Miami and OHIO were generally considered to be equivalent schools. There was no real perceived difference in the student bodies in terms of socio-economic status, political orientation, type of degrees pursued (with exceptions of a few areas where one school excelled relative to the other; for instance, we had engineering and journalism, and they didn't), preppiness, or any other major variable you might come up with. We did not like them. We felt they were inferior. In today's terminology, we thought they sucked. However, there was not the current cultural divide that exists. My question is this: When did the divergence start to take place? Under what administration at Miami? Was it a conscious decision from the start, or did Miami just drift that way at first and then decided that they liked what they were becoming and doubled down? Basically, what are the roots of "New Miami" of today vs. the "Old Miami" of 1960s and earlier? I've puzzled over this question for years, and I've never really seen a satisfactory answer. Thanks for any insight you can give me.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/11/2020 11:58:35 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride: I have a serious question that I think you are probably the best person to ask given your many posts about the Yale of the West. Back in the day, when I first started at OHIO in the 1960s, Miami and OHIO were generally considered to be equivalent schools. There was no real perceived difference in the student bodies in terms of socio-economic status, political orientation, type of degrees pursued (with exceptions of a few areas where one school excelled relative to the other; for instance, we had engineering and journalism, and they didn't), preppiness, or any other major variable you might come up with. We did not like them. We felt they were inferior. In today's terminology, we thought they sucked. However, there was not the current cultural divide that exists. My question is this: When did the divergence start to take place? Under what administration at Miami? Was it a conscious decision from the start, or did Miami just drift that way at first and then decided that they liked what they were becoming and doubled down? Basically, what are the roots of "New Miami" of today vs. the "Old Miami" of 1960s and earlier? I've puzzled over this question for years, and I've never really seen a satisfactory answer. Thanks for any insight you can give me.


I'm a generation younger than you, so I only personally have experienced the results of the privileged place in the sytem that Millett and Shriver engineered. Prior to that, everything that I understand about the system backs up your contention that Miami was no different than the other schools.
e04

Schools before the baby boomers hit were nowhere near as concerned with selectivity as they would become. In this part of the country, it was largely self-selecting. If you couldn't compete in college, why try. Get a union card and a great middle class job out of high school. Even into the 80s, any kid who graduated in the top 50% of his high school class was guaranteed a spot at Wisconsin--Madison, traditionally the second highest regarded public in the Great Lakes. I would argue that, among Great Lakes publics, only Michigan back then was selective in the way we consider it today. Some background that might explain some things and then some conjecture on why Miami became what we know as Miami today.

So, all the schools in the late 50s and early 60s know that the baby boom enrollment bubble is heading their way. Almost all of the Big Ten/AAU schools began to institute managed, selective admissions in response, and OSU was doing the same. And at the very same time, Jim Rhodes appeared. As we've discussed, Rhodes did many good things to grow the system, but he was a mixed bag. He was a populist concerned only with more colleges and more access to them rather than balancing quality into the equation. As someone who flunked out of OSU, he was literally hostile to the notion of quality which he equated with elitism. That's where Shriver and Millett came in and took advantage of Rhodes' populism to convince him that OSU should not be allowed to become "elitist," and it happened in the context of some pretty hard core protest movements at OSU: large free speech movement and protests in 1964, the occupation of their administration building by black students in 1968 and the violent clashes after Kent State in 1970 which shut down the campus. All of these rocked Rhodes' conservative administration and played into Millett's hands to argue that OSU should never be allowed to become "elitist." Let the radicals and troublemakers leave the state. Needless to say, Miami's conservative students weren't engaging in any similar radicalism.

Ohio joined the effort in the belief that Ohio and Miami would become the two "selective" schools that would be allowed to manage the baby boom enrollment. Now, Miami was never officially selective any more than Ohio or OSU or Bowling Green. They simply never requested funds to build more dorms for the increased applications that the first wave of baby boomers were sending in. They backdoored their way into selectivity, and Millett quietly supported and encouraged it. Ohio and OSU, conversely, were allowed no such freedom and were forced to build dorms to handle anyone who applied. And of course that's where my contention lies that Vern Alden made a huge strategic error in siding with Miami only to get stabbed in the back. That's the reality of the history. Miami actually tried to spin out the myth that they were the "designated honors campus" of the system." One of their trustees brought that nonsense to our office in attempting to halt OSU's selective admissions (and Ohio's pending petition to move to selective admissions). We looked it up. There was never any act of the legislature, the Board of Regents or an executive order by any Governor declaring them that. They cooked it up out of thin air, and they actually taught (teach?) it to their students. I've ran into many Miami alums over the years who will use that exact phrase, and refuse to believe that it's a myth.

So by the late 70's Miami is the only selective public college in Ohio, yet it was an unnatural system that wasn't bound to outlive Rhodes' last administration by much. Imagine if Wisconsin had forced the AAU campus in Madison to be open admission while allowing UW-Whitewater to be selective. So how did it end? Since OSU was the school that ended Miami's monopoly on selective admissions (Celeste and Verne Riffe were their patrons in this), I was exposed to their arguments. OSU's engineering and sciences still allowed it to attract a top 20% of the class actually better than Miami's back then. It's just that the open admissions forced them to accept a bottom 20% that Miami didn't have to, and they had the stigma of open admissions. In upending the Rhodes/Millett system, the real golden arrow in their quiver though was top students leaving the state. They had all kinds of data showing that top tier students (top 10% of high school class & 30+ ACT), particularly in engineering and the sciences were leaving the state for other Big Ten schools rather than going to Miami because of the open admissions status of the AAU school. Ohio had the biggest outflow of these students of any state in the region, and OSU hammered that home to the legislature, to the corporate community and to the newspapers. Ohio pretty much waited on the sidelines and then put their own request in several years later. I've heard that this was a combination of hostility on both sides: Ping's personal animosity towards OSU that wouldn't allow him to make a common cause with them along with a political judgment to let them take the risk and see how it played out combined with OSU's lingering hostility and mistrust towards Ohio for siding with Miami in the 60s that led them to go it alone. The end result is that OSU had several years head start on becoming selective and branding themselves within the state as such. Combine that with all the other resources at OSU's disposal, and Ohio was, and continues to, play catch up.

Anyway, that's the background and apologies for my long convoluted way in getting here. So, how did Miami end up as this preppy, conservative "rich kid's school." This is mostly conjecture, but I'd guess that in the 70s Miami's applicant pool became self-selecting for a few reasons. SW Ohio was extremely conservative back then. There was no engineering college and not really strong Arts & Science departments at Miami either to attract an academically diverse student body and slowly there was this self-perpetuating "like attracts like" flow of preppy Greek business majors to the point that Miami would make the Princeton Review's annual list of "Colleges Where Diversity Is Not Valued" right alongside BYU and Texas A&M. As I noted above, kids who didn't fit the Miami type were ending up at OSU, Ohio or leaving the state. I can't say with any certainty, but I can make an educated guess that Miami also made little or no attempts to do anything about it: no outreach to Appalachia or inner city Cleveland or Mechanicsburg. No investing in engineering or STEM, which they're furiously attempting to make up for now. I think their inherent arrogance led them to believe that OSU would never overturn their privileged place. They were arrogant and complacent that they had it all figured out, so they just kept doing what they've been doing since the mid 60s until it was too late. And then when it became clear that they would never be equals with OSU within Ohio, you see the mad rush to Chicago. Well, by the mid to late 90s, Miami is what it is, and if you have a kid in an upper middle class or affluent suburb of Chicago who doesn't get into Illinois or Wisconsin, I think it's natural that the ones who end up at Miami (over say Iowa or Purdue) are going to be the ones who fit in there: the preppy Greek business major. The African-American, the kid who wants to major in History or Aerospace Engineering, the politically liberal are going elsewhere.

Maybe this role and the arrogance behind it is something just hard-wired into their institutional DNA from their role in the antebellum period as a finishing school for wealthy Southerners, and their 20 year period as Ohio's selective school allowed it to awaken like a dormant disease. So here we are half a century after the events that set this all in motion. I would argue, that OSU has become elite but given their diversity and initiatives at affordability for Ohio residents, not elitist. Miami, on the other hand, is not elite as a public university but tries desperately to be elitist with their sky high tuition, fixation on the old public ivy book and turning their back on Ohioans and Ohio taxpayers. That is why--despite whatever historical frictions there have been between Ohio and it--I do respect OSU as a valuable institution in Ohio and can't find any reason to feel the same towards Miami.

Thanks for bearing with my long, rambling dissertation this morning.

Last Edited: 2/11/2020 1:34:50 PM by OUPride

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/11/2020 4:39:36 PM 
Something that I want to add is that I'm usually pretty uncharitable towards the decisions that Alden made in the 60s in that I portray him as a guy who got played by Shriver and Millett. The more I think aout it though, there is a more charitable 6 goexplanation for those decisions. That he simply saw a political landscape where some kind of rational, structured system where OSU would move to selective admissions was just not possible with Rhodes in the Governor's Mansion and thus making common cause with Miami while their former President was Rhodes' handpicked Regents Chair, was a far from perfect option but really the only one available
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/13/2020 12:09:03 AM 
OUPride wrote:
Something that I want to add is that I'm usually pretty uncharitable towards the decisions that Alden made in the 60s in that I portray him as a guy who got played by Shriver and Millett. The more I think aout it though, there is a more charitable 6 goexplanation for those decisions. That he simply saw a political landscape where some kind of rational, structured system where OSU would move to selective admissions was just not possible with Rhodes in the Governor's Mansion and thus making common cause with Miami while their former President was Rhodes' handpicked Regents Chair, was a far from perfect option but really the only one available


Thanks for this, and for your more lengthy treatise above. I thought you did a very thorough job. It seems like "back in my day" may have been an anomalistic period between the antebellum period of being a finishing school for wealthy southerners and the later period of public ivy pretension. Two minor bits of personal detail that might be of some limited interest: 1. My father-in-law was a good friend of Jim Rhodes at OSU, and the two literally flunked out of the school together; my father-in-law, though, did get his act together, enrolled later in Franklin College and graduated from there. 2. My father was the chairman of the Faculty Advisory Council (forerunner of Faculty Senate) during part of the Alden years. He had very few positive things to say about his interactions with Alden. He thought Alden to be primarily interested in enhancing his own reputation and standing, and much less in the long-term interests of Ohio University. Not sure that information adds much to the discussion, but I guess it might explain where I'm coming from a little, and my own personal biases. It's late now, and I must get to bed. Can continue this dialogue later, if there is interest.

Last Edited: 2/13/2020 12:11:39 AM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/13/2020 7:31:25 AM 
OCF, very interesting insights. Maybe you or OUPride can answer this question? During my years on campus, more than few moons ago, I remember at various student government and faculty events hearing rumors that President Alden's main interest in building the Convo was to see if he could persuade his colleagues in the ACC to admit Ohio. I always thought that sounded far fetched, but there were a few faculty members who repeated your words OCF about Alden's large ego and his legacy never being far from his any decision. Just curious about your thoughts.
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/13/2020 8:54:34 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Something that I want to add is that I'm usually pretty uncharitable towards the decisions that Alden made in the 60s in that I portray him as a guy who got played by Shriver and Millett. The more I think aout it though, there is a more charitable 6 goexplanation for those decisions. That he simply saw a political landscape where some kind of rational, structured system where OSU would move to selective admissions was just not possible with Rhodes in the Governor's Mansion and thus making common cause with Miami while their former President was Rhodes' handpicked Regents Chair, was a far from perfect option but really the only one available


Thanks for this, and for your more lengthy treatise above. I thought you did a very thorough job. It seems like "back in my day" may have been an anomalistic period between the antebellum period of being a finishing school for wealthy southerners and the later period of public ivy pretension. Two minor bits of personal detail that might be of some limited interest: 1. My father-in-law was a good friend of Jim Rhodes at OSU, and the two literally flunked out of the school together; my father-in-law, though, did get his act together, enrolled later in Franklin College and graduated from there. 2. My father was the chairman of the Faculty Advisory Council (forerunner of Faculty Senate) during part of the Alden years. He had very few positive things to say about his interactions with Alden. He thought Alden to be primarily interested in enhancing his own reputation and standing, and much less in the long-term interests of Ohio University. Not sure that information adds much to the discussion, but I guess it might explain where I'm coming from a little, and my own personal biases. It's late now, and I must get to bed. Can continue this dialogue later, if there is interest.


Thanks, OCF. One thing I'll point out is that when the Miami trustee approached our office (undoubtedly coordinated with their administration) to assert Miami's faux-historical role as "the designated honors campus for Ohio" he wasn't just sticking his finger in the wind to see if OSU's selective admissions could be rolled back (Celeste was now gone) but also attempting to strangle Ohio's application to move to selectivity before it could be born. So to answer Alan's question of understanding the hate for Miami, combine that with Shriver and Millet's betrayal of Alden in the 60s, and I think there are some solid reasons to hate that school.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/13/2020 4:15:14 PM 
So in other words, we got outsold then as we are getting old sold today. Time to focus on improving our yield for 2021 and beyond.
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David E Brightbill
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/13/2020 10:12:53 PM 
Well if president Alden cared more about his reputation than the university he certainly came back to campus many times long after his tenure ended.
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/14/2020 8:29:56 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
So in other words, we got outsold then as we are getting old sold today. Time to focus on improving our yield for 2021 and beyond.


And I agree with this. Past mistakes can't be undone. Alden, whatever his reasons, crawled into bed with snakes in the 60s and got bit. In the 80s, Ping sat on the sidelines while OSU moved to selective admissions (though in fairness even had he wanted to join them, I'm sure the 60s were still fresh in a lot of minds up in Columbus, and there was probably too much lingering animosity to allow that).

What Ohio can do is start recruiting its ass off, get better freshman classes (without following the Miami model of being a faux-elitist factory of douche), up our out of state percentage to a reasonable level. Quality attracts quality. The more 30+ ACT start coming to Ohio, the more will start considering it down the road.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/14/2020 9:23:05 AM 
Is it all about ACT scores?
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/14/2020 10:00:23 AM 
Staring about 10 years ago, I noticed a substantial increase in promotional efforts by the University of Cincinnati. I saw them in billboards and especially at local high school football games. High school administrators that I know, reported a a marked increase in being approached by various UC marketing operations. This coincided with a focused increase on student recruitment for UC officials visiting high school, which they hoped would turn into campus visits.

This goes to Alan's contention that our beloved Alma mater needs to up her game. UC's campus isn't the most aesthetically pleasing, but they have made an effort and and it seems to be paying off in both numbers and quality of programs. Something to ponder.

Last Edited: 2/14/2020 10:16:13 AM by cbus cat fan

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/14/2020 10:22:41 AM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
Staring about 10 years ago, I noticed a substantial increase in promotional efforts by the University of Cincinnati. I saw them in billboards and especially at local high school football games. High school administrators that I know, reported a a marked increase in being approached by various UC marketing operations. This coincided with a focused increase on student recruitment for UC officials visiting high school, which they hoped would turn into campus visits.

This goes to Alan's contention that our beloved Alma mater needs to up her game. UC's campus isn't the most aesthetically pleasing, but they have made an effort and and it seems to be paying off in both numbers and quality of programs. Something to ponder.


For 20 plus years I was a speaker at the annual fall JEA/NSPA conference which averaged 4500 of the best and the brightest journalism students in America. In all of that time, OU showed up one time to exhibit and the guy who came stayed half a day, left his materials on a table and left. Some of the best journalism programs in the country were there including Ball State, Kent State, and the University of Missouri. This sort of strategic outreach will net the types of students that so many are clamoring for.

http://jea.org/wp/home/news-events/national-conventions /
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/14/2020 11:15:40 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
Staring about 10 years ago, I noticed a substantial increase in promotional efforts by the University of Cincinnati. I saw them in billboards and especially at local high school football games. High school administrators that I know, reported a a marked increase in being approached by various UC marketing operations. This coincided with a focused increase on student recruitment for UC officials visiting high school, which they hoped would turn into campus visits.

This goes to Alan's contention that our beloved Alma mater needs to up her game. UC's campus isn't the most aesthetically pleasing, but they have made an effort and and it seems to be paying off in both numbers and quality of programs. Something to ponder.


For 20 plus years I was a speaker at the annual fall JEA/NSPA conference which averaged 4500 of the best and the brightest journalism students in America. In all of that time, OU showed up one time to exhibit and the guy who came stayed half a day, left his materials on a table and left. Some of the best journalism programs in the country were there including Ball State, Kent State, and the University of Missouri. This sort of strategic outreach will net the types of students that so many are clamoring for.

http://jea.org/wp/home/news-events/national-conventions /


Alan, this post of your's is more than a little sobering. I would hope it and others related to recruitment and retention of students would be forwarded to the proper university administrators, so that at least they were aware of the situation.

I would say this should be obvious to them but experience has taught me otherwise. I have had discussion with higher education officials in this state and others who were in senior roles in their prospective campuses; the lack of understanding of data and trends was simply mind numbing. I hope our administrators have a plan, time will tell.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/14/2020 12:58:30 PM 
You see far more adds and billboards in SE Ohio for Marshall, Toledo, BGSU, Kent then you ever do for Ohio University. Random TV ads as well. Always been a $64K question
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/14/2020 2:27:42 PM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
Staring about 10 years ago, I noticed a substantial increase in promotional efforts by the University of Cincinnati. I saw them in billboards and especially at local high school football games. High school administrators that I know, reported a a marked increase in being approached by various UC marketing operations. This coincided with a focused increase on student recruitment for UC officials visiting high school, which they hoped would turn into campus visits.

This goes to Alan's contention that our beloved Alma mater needs to up her game. UC's campus isn't the most aesthetically pleasing, but they have made an effort and and it seems to be paying off in both numbers and quality of programs. Something to ponder.


For 20 plus years I was a speaker at the annual fall JEA/NSPA conference which averaged 4500 of the best and the brightest journalism students in America. In all of that time, OU showed up one time to exhibit and the guy who came stayed half a day, left his materials on a table and left. Some of the best journalism programs in the country were there including Ball State, Kent State, and the University of Missouri. This sort of strategic outreach will net the types of students that so many are clamoring for.

http://jea.org/wp/home/news-events/national-conventions /


Alan, this post of your's is more than a little sobering. I would hope it and others related to recruitment and retention of students would be forwarded to the proper university administrators, so that at least they were aware of the situation.

I would say this should be obvious to them but experience has taught me otherwise. I have had discussion with higher education officials in this state and others who were in senior roles in their prospective campuses; the lack of understanding of data and trends was simply mind numbing. I hope our administrators have a plan, time will tell.


If that was sobering, how about this?

https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=13051
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/14/2020 2:36:22 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
Staring about 10 years ago, I noticed a substantial increase in promotional efforts by the University of Cincinnati. I saw them in billboards and especially at local high school football games. High school administrators that I know, reported a a marked increase in being approached by various UC marketing operations. This coincided with a focused increase on student recruitment for UC officials visiting high school, which they hoped would turn into campus visits.

This goes to Alan's contention that our beloved Alma mater needs to up her game. UC's campus isn't the most aesthetically pleasing, but they have made an effort and and it seems to be paying off in both numbers and quality of programs. Something to ponder.


For 20 plus years I was a speaker at the annual fall JEA/NSPA conference which averaged 4500 of the best and the brightest journalism students in America. In all of that time, OU showed up one time to exhibit and the guy who came stayed half a day, left his materials on a table and left. Some of the best journalism programs in the country were there including Ball State, Kent State, and the University of Missouri. This sort of strategic outreach will net the types of students that so many are clamoring for.

http://jea.org/wp/home/news-events/national-conventions /


Alan, this post of your's is more than a little sobering. I would hope it and others related to recruitment and retention of students would be forwarded to the proper university administrators, so that at least they were aware of the situation.

I would say this should be obvious to them but experience has taught me otherwise. I have had discussion with higher education officials in this state and others who were in senior roles in their prospective campuses; the lack of understanding of data and trends was simply mind numbing. I hope our administrators have a plan, time will tell.


If that was sobering, how about this?

https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=13051


Would agree with this 100%
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/14/2020 3:44:02 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
Staring about 10 years ago, I noticed a substantial increase in promotional efforts by the University of Cincinnati. I saw them in billboards and especially at local high school football games. High school administrators that I know, reported a a marked increase in being approached by various UC marketing operations. This coincided with a focused increase on student recruitment for UC officials visiting high school, which they hoped would turn into campus visits.

This goes to Alan's contention that our beloved Alma mater needs to up her game. UC's campus isn't the most aesthetically pleasing, but they have made an effort and and it seems to be paying off in both numbers and quality of programs. Something to ponder.


For 20 plus years I was a speaker at the annual fall JEA/NSPA conference which averaged 4500 of the best and the brightest journalism students in America. In all of that time, OU showed up one time to exhibit and the guy who came stayed half a day, left his materials on a table and left. Some of the best journalism programs in the country were there including Ball State, Kent State, and the University of Missouri. This sort of strategic outreach will net the types of students that so many are clamoring for.

http://jea.org/wp/home/news-events/national-conventions /


Alan, this post of your's is more than a little sobering. I would hope it and others related to recruitment and retention of students would be forwarded to the proper university administrators, so that at least they were aware of the situation.

I would say this should be obvious to them but experience has taught me otherwise. I have had discussion with higher education officials in this state and others who were in senior roles in their prospective campuses; the lack of understanding of data and trends was simply mind numbing. I hope our administrators have a plan, time will tell.


If that was sobering, how about this?

https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=13051


Would agree with this 100%


Yes exactly Alan and Billy, that article from Professor Vedder was so sobering, it might force one to have a drink. One conjures up a vision of some sort of Howard Hughes style operation where you want to keep the boss happy because as long as he or someone associated with him is writing the checks and keeping the party going, all is well. The problem is there are plenty of folks lining up at the karaoke bar ready to sing; "The Party's Over."

Last Edited: 2/14/2020 3:53:36 PM by cbus cat fan

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/14/2020 9:41:59 PM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
Staring about 10 years ago, I noticed a substantial increase in promotional efforts by the University of Cincinnati. I saw them in billboards and especially at local high school football games. High school administrators that I know, reported a a marked increase in being approached by various UC marketing operations. This coincided with a focused increase on student recruitment for UC officials visiting high school, which they hoped would turn into campus visits.

This goes to Alan's contention that our beloved Alma mater needs to up her game. UC's campus isn't the most aesthetically pleasing, but they have made an effort and and it seems to be paying off in both numbers and quality of programs. Something to ponder.


For 20 plus years I was a speaker at the annual fall JEA/NSPA conference which averaged 4500 of the best and the brightest journalism students in America. In all of that time, OU showed up one time to exhibit and the guy who came stayed half a day, left his materials on a table and left. Some of the best journalism programs in the country were there including Ball State, Kent State, and the University of Missouri. This sort of strategic outreach will net the types of students that so many are clamoring for.

http://jea.org/wp/home/news-events/national-conventions /


Alan, this post of your's is more than a little sobering. I would hope it and others related to recruitment and retention of students would be forwarded to the proper university administrators, so that at least they were aware of the situation.

I would say this should be obvious to them but experience has taught me otherwise. I have had discussion with higher education officials in this state and others who were in senior roles in their prospective campuses; the lack of understanding of data and trends was simply mind numbing. I hope our administrators have a plan, time will tell.


If that was sobering, how about this?

https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=13051


Would agree with this 100%


Yes exactly Alan and Billy, that article from Professor Vedder was so sobering, it might force one to have a drink. One conjures up a vision of some sort of Howard Hughes style operation where you want to keep the boss happy because as long as he or someone associated with him is writing the checks and keeping the party going, all is well. The problem is there are plenty of folks lining up at the karaoke bar ready to sing; "The Party's Over."


Unfortunately when they get their turn at the mic, they lose their voice. Very and I mean very few people have the spine to speak up and when they do, they are dismissed as ney sayers, malcontents, or troublemakers. I've seen it for years in parents of school children who were in rotten classrooms. They were afraid to speak up because of what might happen to their kids. Tax payers in Ohio are no different. Few will speak up because of how they will be perceived. Sad, very sad.

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